[brooklyn]

Hi Guy 13, that's a very nice audio system you got there, what kind of speakers are those?

[dB Cooper]

The big kind 

[joessportster]

Hey Guy no problem with dis agreeing, I get that alot..............................I must say though you are at odds with most people I speak with. A little background on myself, in audio for over 30 years have set up systems costing in excess of 50,000.00 dollars. I abssolutely love horn speakers and SET amplifiers, my last sysyem was edgarhorn  titans and I replaced the edgar salad bowl with the oris orphean, amps were deja vu 45 push pull at 3 watts per channel, pre-amp was emotive audio sira reference, source was electrocompanient emc1 up, and TT maplenoll arieadne. some variations i set up were better than others but the last one was i dare say the best.  soundstage was HUGE and you absolutely could at times feel the performer in the room..........those speakers were something like 112 db effecient and you could hear a mouse fart if it was part of the music..............................

I absolutely HATED headphones just over 1 year ago. My first pair Senn. HD650, I added a good amp and I started to see what the fuss was about. I moved to the Planer Magnetic HiFi Man HE500's  and the Kenzie SET headphone amp and I can easily hear detail I have not heard before on the aforementioned system

I tend to believe you may just not care for headphones and I certainly understand that (as at first I hated them) and I still miss my 3-d soundstage
but I have come to appreciate headphones for there strengths

Joe

[Guy 13]

Hi guy13,

Probably you have the same feeling as  the OP on this thread, specifically on the "Headstage" section.

Hi Noseyears.
Thanks for the link.
That's a lot of reading.
I went thru it at high speed, I've probably miss some parts,
but I got the general idea.
I confirm that I have approximately the same feeling as that guy in his review.
Thanks again.

Guy 13

[Guy 13]

Same here, its more than 2 months I dont listen the HE400, its breakin stoped at 90 hours.
its like become a boring exercise.

Hi FULLRANGEMAN.
My listening ratio between my system and my headphones is about 10 to 1.
Of course, ten is for my system.
When I listen to my headphones,
it's because I want to put millage on them
and try to convince me that the sound will get better
and the sound will start to get more like my system, and I know,
that will never happen, but I hope...
Even if I had a pair of STAX - SR009, I am sure, I would still be missing the soundstage,
but probably enjoy the very high sound quality of electrostatic.
I know, I use to own a pair 30+ years ago.

Guy 13

[Guy 13]

Hi Guy 13, that's a very nice audio system you got there, what kind of speakers are those?

Hi Brooklyn.
Haaaa.... I've succeeded in picking/cartching your curiosity.
The top driver is a Made in USA - Omega 7F extended range driver
with very little peak in the 1 to 5KHz frequency range,
in other words, not shouty.
It's Open Baffle Dipole configuration.
It's very resolving, it can reproduce lots of micro details,
very natural sound with good recording.
I find it better at reproducing small orchestras.
The subwoofers are two Eminence Acoustinator 12"
(The are guitar speakers.)
Their frequency range are 43 to 1000+ KHz.
(Nothing extraordinary for audiophile subwoofer,
many others models have a much better/extended frequency range.)
But, there is something special about those subs, it's (Probably) the combination
between the Omega 7F and the subs.
They are driven by one on each side GR Research SA-1 250 Watts ss plate amplifier
to drive two drivers in parallel (4 Ohms) Of course the enclosure is H frame configuration
and was built for me by a local Vietnamese cabinet maker for the amount of 200 USD/pair.
I like the open baffle configuration for reasons that other AC members can describe better than me.
There you go.
If you need more specific information, try again and ask.

Guy 13

By the way, in the past 35 years, that's the best sounding system I have owned.
In 1983 I've paid 15,000 $ for a system
and it did not sound as good as this one that cost less.

 

[dB Cooper]

Guy, a light bulb just went on for me as far as one brand we haven't mentioned that might be worth looking into: Audio Technica. They make some open cans that are very well regarded. Only problem is, if the Bottlehead Crack has to be part of the picture, that is going to rule those (along with most other headphones) out because of impedance incompatibility. The trend being towards lower impedance models.

In his HD650 review, nwavguy (the Jack Kerouac of audio) described the HD650 as "a bit of an acquired taste". My gut feeling is, if you haven't acquired it by now, you probably aren't going to, and you should stop trying to make yourself "like" them and figure out the next plan. My concern for you is that the Bottlehead severely limits your options. Nothing against Bottlehead, but any OTL tube amp is VERY particular about loading. Even 300 ohms is barely enough.

[Letitroll98]

Hi Letitroll98.
I own the Stereophile's Test CD # 3 and I know about that track # 10, I've listen to it many times before. It's not my preferred test track for sound stage, but it give you an idea what your system can do.
Now, I must agree with you that with speakers, well with my speakers,
despite their good sound quality, they never give me the impression that the musicians are in front of me or with me. I can still feel that the sound comes from the speakers.
The thing about speakers disappearing is not with my system
and I would sure like to hear one system like that where you feel that the musicians are with you in the room.
Sorry to have a different views of what headphones can do
about the soundstage.
If everybody had the same opinion or would all agree about something,
the world might be boring.
No discussion, no arguments...

Guy 13





 

Thanks for the kind reply.  In my last home I had a dedicated room for stereo with wall treatments etc and could play as loud as I liked at any reasonable hour.  I had a few mundane speakers that were well set up, Maggie MMG's, PSB Alpha Towers, Snell Type E IV, and a couple of others and I could get an awesome soundstage with all of them.  15' beyond the sides and as deep as the recording venue, 40' if it was in the recording.

Now I've downsized into a small condo and have been forced into headphone listening on the opposite ratio from you, 10 to 1 headphone, and my speakers are medium sized bookshelves in a bedroom that offers little to no imaging compared to my old setup.  So I'll be spending a great deal of time in the headphone rooms at the Capfest audio show this weekend.  I'll let you know if I find a pair of moderately priced phones that image fabulously.  Happy listening.

[Guy 13]

Thanks for the kind reply.  In my last home I had a dedicated room for stereo with wall treatments etc and could play as loud as I liked at any reasonable hour.  I had a few mundane speakers that were well set up, Maggie MMG's, PSB Alpha Towers, Snell Type E IV, and a couple of others and I could get an awesome soundstage with all of them.  15' beyond the sides and as deep as the recording venue, 40' if it was in the recording.

Now I've downsized into a small condo and have been forced into headphone listening on the opposite ratio from you, 10 to 1 headphone, and my speakers are medium sized bookshelves in a bedroom that offers little to no imaging compared to my old setup.  So I'll be spending a great deal of time in the headphone rooms at the Capfest audio show this weekend.  I'll let you know if I find a pair of moderately priced phones that image fabulously.  Happy listening.

Hi Letiroll98
Thanks for your comments.
look forward to your headphones comments.
Here on planet Vietnam, every year in September they have the Saigon Hi End Audio show
and again this year they will have a room only for headphones.
It's in that same room last year, that I di the HD650 listening and too stupid short evaluation.
I will do it again this year, without the stupid short thing.
The problem with their set-up is that everything comes from Internet downloaded files
and their headphones amplifiers are far from hi-end.
Well, I will go anyway, I must find something fun to do.
Planet Vietnam is so boring.

Guy 13
 

[steve in jersey]

Getting a bit of soundstage from from headphones is'nt necessarily a completely lost cause. You do have to
take into consideration what you are "working" with as the amount of direct left / right sound you are getting
from each earcup will overpower most acoustic ambient cues (which I believe is "out of phase" from the direct
left / right signal). This "oop" information gives us an approximation of "staging locations" of where the sound may be coming from in relation to their placement on a so called "stage".

There are a few things that help "defeat" some of the direct in your "head" sound when listening through
headphones. There are 2 reasons "right off the bat" why the Senn HD800 are "imaging champs". They are "open air" design (which tends to make things sound like they're coming from a space larger than the two "boxes" you've placed on either side of your head). The earcups are angled forward a bit to mimic the sound coming to your ears from the front of your head. Both of these features lessen the "stage killing" effect of too
much direct sound.

While the HD800s are great, they are'nt the only "cans" that pull off "great imaging" act. I would say that an
"open back" headphone with "angled earpads" is a good place to start. A well implemented "cross feed" circuit
really gives you a much greater ability to hear "Soundstaging" from headphone listening as does lowering your
listening level volume . One more thing, there is a huge amount of recordings that don't really have much
Soundstaging to speak of on them.

[Guy 13]

Getting a bit of soundstage from from headphones is'nt necessarily a completely lost cause. You do have to
take into consideration what you are "working" with as the amount of direct left / right sound you are getting
from each earcup will overpower most acoustic ambient cues (which I believe is "out of phase" from the direct
left / right signal). This "oop" information gives us an approximation of "staging locations" of where the sound may be coming from in relation to their placement on a so called "stage".

There are a few things that help "defeat" some of the direct in your "head" sound when listening through
headphones. There are 2 reasons "right off the bat" why the Senn HD800 are "imaging champs". They are "open air" design (which tends to make things sound like they're coming from a space larger than the two "boxes" you've placed on either side of your head). The earcups are angled forward a bit to mimic the sound coming to your ears from the front of your head. Both of these features lessen the "stage killing" effect of too
much direct sound.

While the HD800s are great, they are'nt the only "cans" that pull off "great imaging" act. I would say that an
"open back" headphone with "angled earpads" is a good place to start. A well implemented "cross feed" circuit
really gives you a much greater ability to hear "Soundstaging" from headphone listening as does lowering your
listening level volume . One more thing, there is a huge amount of recordings that don't really have much
Soundstaging to speak of on them.

Hi Steve in jersey
(Like the clothing or in New Jersey like the state?)
I do get sometimes a wide soundstage:
Good recordings, not only binaural.
Closing my eyes an try to put myself in the room with the musicians,
yes, sometimes it works, but only create an impression of wider
and deeper soundstage.
I tried to twist the headband, so that I could give the drivers an angle
like the HD800, but did not change anything.
Anyway, maybe one day (When I am walking with the aid of a small trolley)
I will be in a small apartment and will need to listen to TV and music with headphone, maybe by then, I will accept the narrow sound stage.
Thanks for your comments.

Guy 13

[steve in jersey]

Hi Guy,
 
(Yes, I'm from N. J, .. Where the official "State Bird" is... The mosquito)
Unfortunately unless you can maintain the earpad seal to your head, you won't notice much "directional difference" to where the sound appears to be coming from. Adjusting your headband probably won't accomplish the same thing as using "angled earpads" as you want to retain some directional cues that sound
is coming a bit more from in front of you.

As I mentioned, it's not a given fact that all the recorded music we listen to has appreciable soundstage information on them. If you do "sometimes" hear it when you're listening you're already "ahead of the
game". I think if you're not , first, enjoying the "tonality" of the sound you hear from your headphones
it may be time to try another pair. "Soundstaging"(which by the way, only us "Audiophiles" are that concerned
about) capability is actually just (as we say here in the States) added "gravy"

Have a great day,
Steve

[Guy 13]

Hi Guy,
 
(Yes, I'm from N. J, .. Where the official "State Bird" is... The mosquito)
Unfortunately unless you can maintain the earpad seal to your head, you won't notice much "directional difference" to where the sound appears to be coming from. Adjusting your headband probably won't accomplish the same thing as using "angled earpads" as you want to retain some directional cues that sound
is coming a bit more from in front of you.

As I mentioned, it's not a given fact that all the recorded music we listen to has appreciable soundstage information on them. If you do "sometimes" hear it when you're listening you're already "ahead of the
game". I think if you're not , first, enjoying the "tonality" of the sound you hear from your headphones
it may be time to try another pair. "Soundstaging"(which by the way, only us "Audiophiles" are that concerned
about) capability is actually just (as we say here in the States) added "gravy"

Have a great day,
Steve

Hi Steve in and from N.J.
I did try all the following headphones
and only one pair had a little wider sound stage and that's the HD800.
HiFiMan He400,
BD DT-880/990/T1,
Sennheiser HD570/600/650/700/800
I don't think I will ever find a pair of headphones that has a W I D E soundstage,
so I will keep my HD650 or maybe exchange them for a pair of HD600
that are more to my liking.

Guy 13

[pbui44]

Yeah, the HD600 is slightly more neutral to my ears than the HD650, so I can see that.

[dB Cooper]

Somewhere there's probably an HD600 user looking to get 650s who would jump at the opportunity to trade on an even steven basis. might want to simply put that proposition out there on Trading Post. The 600s are tacky looking compared to the 650 IMO but you cant see them while they're on 

The soundstage thing just comes with the territory, I think. Crossfeed helps but isn't perfect (but then, what is?)

[Guy 13]

Somewhere there's probably an HD600 user looking to get 650s who would jump at the opportunity to trade on an even steven basis. might want to simply put that proposition out there on Trading Post. The 600s are tacky looking compared to the 650 IMO but you cant see them while they're on 

The soundstage thing just comes with the territory, I think. Crossfeed helps but isn't perfect (but then, what is?)

Hi dB Cooper.
Yes, a change for change with no money involved would be ideal.
But, I think that can only happen if we do the exchange in Vietnam,
to avoid any transport fees that would make the deal too costly
even impossible.
I might start talking about the exchange with the few Vietnamese
audio friends I made lately via my HD650 and my Crack.
Soundstage ?
Well, I am just forgetting about that, with my headphones anyway.

Guy 13

[Guy 13]

The big kind 

dB Cooper they are the red kind or the red king.

Guy 13

[Monkeyking]

Try the AKG K1000. Each earpiece is not actually on your ear. This is probably the closest to recreating a natural soundstage.

[dB Cooper]

If you can find a pair, the odds of which are probably similar to the odds of finding Amelia Earhart's plane...

[Guy 13]

Try the AKG K1000. Each earpiece is not actually on your ear. This is probably the closest to recreating a natural soundstage.

Hi Monkeyking.
Is a monkey king one step higher than a gorilla?
Thanks for the advice,
but there are no importer/dealer of AKG in Vietnam.
I would also have to reach deep into my pocket to find out that I have very little $$$ left.
Thanks anyway.

Guy 13