AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => Vinnie Rossi => Topic started by: Vinnie R. on 26 Jun 2015, 03:14 pm
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All,
The LIO AVC/Tubestage combo module design is ready for production! 8)
Today I ordered the blank PCBs (they will be red, just like other LIO modules), Slagleformers,
and other parts. I should have all the parts in hand around mid-July, and should be able to start
shipping early August.
We'll be adding this module to our website as soon as we can take pics. As you probably know from discussion
on this forum, LIO AVC/Tubestage:
- combines LIO AVC module, followed by LIO Tubestage module - all on one module.
- will have jumpers to allow it to be ran in AVC-only mode, or AVC/Tubestage combo mode.
- cost = $2,195
Please refer to this announcement regarding pricing, effective August 1st:
http://us2.campaign-archive1.com/?u=8732927ed821bd32f5f0fca4b&id=197b4a52c4&e=c5c4952066 (http://us2.campaign-archive1.com/?u=8732927ed821bd32f5f0fca4b&id=197b4a52c4&e=c5c4952066)
What about LIO "early adopters" who already purchased AVC, RVC, or RVC + Tubestage modules?
I really appreciate the enthusiasm and support of our LIO customers so far, and have decided to allow for a
100% trade-up policy until 24:00 (midnight US EDT), July 31, 2015. :idea:
What this means is that if you would like to trade-up your AVC, RVC, or both RVC + Tubestage combo for
the upcoming LIO AVC/Tubestage module, I will give you 100% trade-in credit for them if you pay for the
difference (securing your order), before 24:00 (midnight US EDT), July 31, 2015. When we have your
AVC/Tubestage ready to ship, we will contact you to ship your trade-in module(s) and we'll ship the
AVC/Tubestage.
After 24:00 (midnight US EDT), July 31, 2015, we will no longer offer this 100% trade-in of AVC, RVC, or RVC +
Tubestage towards the AVC/Tubestage module. It is *possible* that we will still over some forum of trade-in
(e.g. 50%), but not at 100%.
http://vinnierossi.com/store/#!/AVC-Tubestage-combo-module/p/51938116/category=13223079 (http://vinnierossi.com/store/#!/AVC-Tubestage-combo-module/p/51938116/category=13223079)
** Please note that this offer only applies to trade-up of AVC, RVC, or RVC + Tubestage towards AVC/Tubestage. No
other modules are eligible. :rules:
** Customer pays for return shipping of trade-in modules, and for shipping of AVC/Tubestage module.
** This trade-up does not mean that I'll be able to offer trade-ins on future modules (e.g. When we come out with
a low-power Class A output stage module, it does not mean we'll be offering trade-in of LIO MOSFET AMP module). We
cannot always offer trade-ins, but will evaluate things on a case-by-case basis to see what might be possible.
I'll be posting more pics / details to this thread soon enough! :hyper:
Vinnie
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So is that on top of the base Lio price?
"- combines LIO AVC module, followed by LIO Tubestage module - all on one module.
- will have jumpers to allow it to be ran in AVC-only mode, or AVC/Tubestage combo mode.
- cost = $2,195"
Also, any date on the XLR outputs?
And, how much do we lose with the RVC over the AVC in quality of sound? I'm trying to keep this under $3k out of the box.
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So is that on top of the base Lio price?
"- combines LIO AVC module, followed by LIO Tubestage module - all on one module.
- will have jumpers to allow it to be ran in AVC-only mode, or AVC/Tubestage combo mode.
- cost = $2,195"
Also, any date on the XLR outputs?
And, how much do we lose with the RVC over the AVC in quality of sound? I'm trying to keep this under $3k out of the box.
Hi BRM,
Current base LIO price is $1995 (and as noted in the link above, it going up on Aug 1st).
This doe NOT include the AVC/Tubestage module ($2195).
Still working on the BALANCED INPUT / OUTPUT modules... hoping for a release in August. Might be later in that month, but they
are coming soon!
And, how much do we lose with the RVC over the AVC in quality of sound?
It's hard to quantify. RVC is an excellent volume control - just as good as any high quality stepped attenuator (Goldpoint and DACT come to mind), but with 64 steps instead of 24, and with remote control and balance control built in. And RVC is better than a stereo potentiometer used in most gear (even the good Alps Blue used in the RWA components).
AVC is in a whole other league. See this thread for more info if you haven't already: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=132725.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=132725.0)
In the 6moons LIO review, the RVC and AVC were compared (along with AVC vs. RVC + Tubestage).
All the best,
Vinnie
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What this means is that if you would like to trade-up your AVC, RVC, or both RVC + Tubestage combo for
the upcoming LIO AVC/Tubestage module, I will give you 100% trade-in credit for them if you pay for the
difference (securing your order), before 24:00 (midnight US EDT), July 31, 2015. When we have your
AVC/Tubestage ready to ship, we will contact you to ship your trade-in module(s) and we'll ship the
AVC/Tubestage.
Vinnie,
Please count me in! How do I get in line to make the trade-up?
Thanks,
Charlie
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Hi Charlie,
I just added it in our store, so you can order it (and even select the trade-in option, if any):
http://vinnierossi.com/store/#!/AVC-Tubestage-combo-module/p/51938116/category=13223079 (http://vinnierossi.com/store/#!/AVC-Tubestage-combo-module/p/51938116/category=13223079)
Details and pics on that store page coming soon...
Thanks,
Vinnie
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Vinnie
If I only use it as DAC , will it improve the sound quality in general ?
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Vinnie
If I only use it as DAC , will it improve the sound quality in general ?
Hi Mitch,
If you are only using LIO as a dac (feeding into another preamp), then you would not need this module.
If you are using LIO as a dac + preamp to feed another power amp, then YES - it would improve sound quality.
Hope this helps,
Vinnie
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Thanks Vinnie!
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Vinnie-
Jumpers? does this mean you'd have to open the box to switch between the 2 modes? Or an external switch on the back of the LIO?
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Thanks Vinnie for the thorough answers.
So will the XLR module be one I can add later and be compatible with RVC and Tube stage? Based on the readings the RVC may be more to my liking to start.
Keep up the fantastic work Vinnie (and your lovely wife as well) - great team!
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What about LIO "early adopters" who already purchased AVC, RVC, or RVC + Tubestage modules?
I really appreciate the enthusiasm and support of our LIO customers so far, and have decided to allow for a
100% trade-up policy until 24:00 (midnight US EDT), July 31, 2015. :idea:
First off, this is an incredibly generous offer for us LIO early adopters, especially as you've come to understand your true costs. Thank you again Vinnie :thumb:
Despite this, I've ever so slightly struggled with this decision, perhaps for the reasons that wily BRM hints at. I've happily lived with a balanced TAP-X with Slagleformers for quite some time. It displaced a string of very good and considerably more expensive preamps. It is truly a terrific piece if you crave that crisp clean unvarnished and neutral window of sound (I do), knowing you're hearing every single nuance that is there. It leaves nothing to chance, yet does it without sounding sterile and thin, and messing up the music, no bad habits whatsoever. It has soul, dynamic drive, and jump factor where many passives do not. Quite a trick really. I'd describe it as very similar to the FirstWatt F5's I've built. Problem is, EVERY piece of my system does this to some extent, and it already sounded superb for my tastes.
But, here's the rub. When I inserted the LIO RVC/Tube stage configuration in my system, the result was a magical step forward. Not a giant leap, or a "killed it" sort of thing, but overall a much better vibe. It has stayed in place since the first day, other than a couple quick comparisons for sanity's sake. I suppose I could chalk it up to that whole "synergy" thing, which is a bit hard to understand in practice. It is certainly more than that though, as LIO is just extraordinarily well conceived and executed, a new benchmark product. As Vinnie said, the RVC is, compared to most VC's, already very special. That transparency and immediacy is still there. The LIO added a dash more soul, a slight pinch of sweetness, a wee bit tighter and more articulate bass, and it all works supremely well with my TAD E1's. No doubt about it, the sum of the parts is just mo' betta in my system. I could live with it for a long time or even call it done, none the wiser to this new option.
The LIO makes me smile every time I turn it on. So, do I take another leap and spoil the magic synergy? Here is the beauty of the LIO architecture! I can just plug the new module in and compare for it 30 days :D No need to sell the existing pre to fund the next one and wonder if I did the right thing. I totally blew this in a previous preamp cycle long before LIO, regretted it terribly, had to eat crow, lost some cash on the sale, you all know how that goes at times. It's part of the hobby.
Thanks to this offer and the modular approach, I'm going to order one up and listen and decide for myself, no risk at all. A little over $1k exchange and some listening time. I'm getting even more than I ever expected. You have to love it :thumb:
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Vinnie-
Jumpers? does this mean you'd have to open the box to switch between the 2 modes? Or an external switch on the back of the LIO?
Hi firedog,
Yes, if you want to change from AVC/Tubestage mode to AVC mode (or vise versa), you remove the two thumbscrews and slide
the top cover off. Then swap the two jumpers and you're ready to go.
So will the XLR module be one I can add later and be compatible with RVC and Tube stage? Based on the readings the RVC may be more to my liking to start.
Keep up the fantastic work Vinnie (and your lovely wife as well) - great team!
Thanks, BRM!
Yes, you can order the XLR INPUTS module and/or XLR OUTPUTS module later and swap with the standard INPUTS / OUTPUTS module. They will be compatible with everything.
Hi TomS,
I can't think of anyone who loves RVC + Tubestage that will not love AVC/Tubestage even more. I put in a solid listening session last night. AVC + Tubestage is the perfect marriage and they really compliment each other.
Compared to RVC + Tubestage (which as you know is very impressive already), AVC/Tubestage:
- Even better transient response and dynamics
- More open and transparent sounding
- Finer low-level (low volume) detail retrieval.
- Even better unraveling of subtle textures and nuances in the music
- Worth noting for those who have not tried the AVC: It uses different relays (Pickering England)
that are virtually silent when you change volume level.
Just configured as a LIO preamp (linestage, with INPUTS and AVC/TUBESTAGE modules only) - I don't know of
any preamp that comes close to sounding this good anywhere at this price point, and I'm talking Aug 1st prices.
At current pricing, it's a steal!
30-day return policy lets YOU be the judge. :singing:
Vinnie
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My order is in and I can't wait to hear it :thumb:
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My order is in and I can't wait to hear it :thumb:
So this is Autoformer wtih tubes? Balanced?
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My order is in and I can't wait to hear it :thumb:
Me too!
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So this is Autoformer wtih tubes? Balanced?
Single ended AVC with the same topology tube stage all on one board. They wouldn't both fit before. Balanced I/O is a separate module though the LIO platform is single ended throughout internally.
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Balanced I/O is a separate module though the LIO platform is single ended throughout internally.
Right but for those that use balanced external amps and source it would be nice. Maybe.
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Yes, you can order the XLR INPUTS module and/or XLR OUTPUTS module later and swap with the standard INPUTS / OUTPUTS module. They will be compatible with everything.
Vinnie,
What's the XLR input and output modules retail price?
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Right but for those that use balanced external amps and source it would be nice. Maybe.
I agree! No Maybe 8)
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I agree! No Maybe 8)
All,
The BALANCED INPUTS and OUTPUTS modules should be out sometime in August.
Pricing and details coming soon (next month).
- Vinnie
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All,
The BALANCED INPUTS and OUTPUTS modules should be out sometime in August.
Pricing and details coming soon (next month).
- Vinnie
ANY idea of rough cost? I promise I wouldn't hold you to it. Also, how many pairs of XLR (Truly Balanced) outputs will it have?
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ANY idea of rough cost? I promise I wouldn't hold you to it. Also, how many pairs of XLR (Truly Balanced) outputs will it have?
Hi jtwrace,
Under $500 for each module.
They will each have 1 L/R set of XLR's, and 2 L/R sets of RCAs.
The Balanced INs/OUTs will be 50-ohm, "true balanced" (active stage).
Again - I'll post more next month when we have it all finished and ready for production.
Until then, feel free to email me with questions.
Ok - back to AVC/Tubestage discussion... :wink:
Vinnie
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Hi Mitch,
If you are only using LIO as a dac (feeding into another preamp), then you would not need this module.
If you are using LIO as a dac + preamp to feed another power amp, then YES - it would improve sound quality.
Hope this helps,
Vinnie
[/quot
Vinnie The improvement would also apply to a unit with DAC, Pre, and Amp functions as well.. correct?
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Hi yardbird,
Correct :thumb:
Vinnie
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Thank you for your response
I think I will have it order too
Bear with my English, the trade in option you offer is the module (part) that we need to swap and not the whole LIO, right ?
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Continue to follow your developments with interest in light of the fabulous realization of conception to execution. Two questions:
1. This takes one slot? If so, this means that it actually opens up a slot compared to RVC/Tube.
2. Assuming the AVC/Tube and RVC/Tube both cost the same, is it conceivable that a fair percentage of listeners would prefer the RVC/Tube sound or is it so stark a difference that almost all would prefer AVC/Tube?
Thanks.
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Thank you for your response
I think I will have it order too
Bear with my English, the trade in option you offer is the module (part) that we need to swap and not the whole LIO, right ?
Hi Mitch751,
Your English is fine! Yes, with the trade-in you would trade-in your RVC and Tubestage for this new module (AVC/Tubestage combo
module). I would send it to you to install, and you would send back the RVC and Tubestage (not the whole LIO).
Continue to follow your developments with interest in light of the fabulous realization of conception to execution. Two questions:
1. This takes one slot? If so, this means that it actually opens up a slot compared to RVC/Tube.
2. Assuming the AVC/Tube and RVC/Tube both cost the same, is it conceivable that a fair percentage of listeners would prefer the RVC/Tube sound or is it so stark a difference that almost all would prefer AVC/Tube?
Hi Ultralight,
1) Yes, the AVC/Tubestage takes the slot of the standard LIO Tubestage (or standard LIO AVC). So if you have RVC and Tubestage,
the RVC slot would be free. This is the location that goes on top of the LIO INPUTS (if one has LIO analog INPUTS module). With AVC/TUBESTAGE in place, you would simply install a small jumper board in place of RVC. It's all quite simple to do.
2) The RVC + Tubestage is quite a bit less expensive than the upcoming AVC/Tubestage. But even if they were the same price, it would be hard to believe that one would prefer the sound of RVC + Tubestage modules vs. the AVC/Tubestage combo module, but it is possible and wouldn't make it "wrong" - we all have our distinct tastes in sound and that is what keeps it interesting! :)
Vinnie
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Hi firedog,
Yes, if you want to change from AVC/Tubestage mode to AVC mode (or vise versa), you remove the two thumbscrews and slide
the top cover off. Then swap the two jumpers and you're ready to go.
Thanks, BRM!
Yes, you can order the XLR INPUTS module and/or XLR OUTPUTS module later and swap with the standard INPUTS / OUTPUTS module. They will be compatible with everything.
Hi TomS,
I can't think of anyone who loves RVC + Tubestage that will not love AVC/Tubestage even more. I put in a solid listening session last night. AVC + Tubestage is the perfect marriage and they really compliment each other.
Compared to RVC + Tubestage (which as you know is very impressive already), AVC/Tubestage:
- Even better transient response and dynamics
- More open and transparent sounding
- Finer low-level (low volume) detail retrieval.
- Even better unraveling of subtle textures and nuances in the music
- Worth noting for those who have not tried the AVC: It uses different relays (Pickering England)
that are virtually silent when you change volume level.
Just configured as a LIO preamp (linestage, with INPUTS and AVC/TUBESTAGE modules only) - I don't know of
any preamp that comes close to sounding this good anywhere at this price point, and I'm talking Aug 1st prices.
At current pricing, it's a steal!
30-day return policy lets YOU be the judge. :singing:
Vinnie
Vinnie
What I would like to know is what are the differences/improvements of the AVC-Tube Stage over the AVC without tube stage? At least as you see it what additional sonic pleasures can we expect in this matchup?
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Hi yardbird4,
Compared to the AVC, the AVC/Tubestage delivers a richer midrange (but not overly dense / this is NOT an overly tooooby kinda sound), and there is added texture and tonality. Vocals and superb!
But NOT as the expense of speed, openness, detail, low volume detail. You really do get the best of both worlds with this one! :drool:
The sound will also have dependency on the tubes you are using. My comments above are with the stock JJ E88CC tubes, as that is what comes with the AVC/Tubestage module. With some of those nice NOS tubes, it gets even better! More on that later...
Vinnie
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What do you think ,instead of trade in, shall I just order the new AVC/Tubesage, ? Since the sound taste of both are different, then I can swap them anytime I want :D :D
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Hi yardbird4,
Compared to the AVC, the AVC/Tubestage delivers a richer midrange (but not overly dense / this is NOT an overly tooooby kinda sound), and there is added texture and tonality. Vocals and superb!
But NOT as the expense of speed, openness, detail, low volume detail. You really do get the best of both worlds with this one! :drool:
The sound will also have dependency on the tubes you are using. My comments above are with the stock JJ E88CC tubes, as that is what comes with the AVC/Tubestage module. With some of those nice NOS tubes, it gets even better! More on that later...
My order is in! 8)
Vinnie
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All,
LIO AVC/TUBESTAGE combo module is here:
http://vinnierossi.com/store/#!/AVC-Tubestage-combo-module/p/51938116/category=13223079
(https://dpbfm6h358sh7.cloudfront.net/images/5630021/300764967.jpg)
(I'll be adding it to the main page / drop down menu this week). 8)
A few more are scheduled to ship this week, as well as complete LIO systems with this module installed!
Thank you,
Vinnie
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Sweet.
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My AVC/Tubestage combo is singing sweetly as I type this :thumb:
Oh, and the install itself was about 5 minutes from package to playing, other than the power recycle for the cap banks.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=126119)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=126120)
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Hi TomS
Lovely photos of the Lio innards with the AVC-Tubestage in place.
What are some of the initial differences you've noticed between the RVC- Tubestage and the AVC-Tubestage? How hot is the Lio Integrated with the lid closed? Are you able to place your palm on the lid without needing to move away because of the heat?
Best Regards
Dennis
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Hi TomS
Lovely photos of the Lio innards with the AVC-Tubestage in place.
What are some of the initial differences you've noticed between the RVC- Tubestage and the AVC-Tubestage? How hot is the Lio Integrated with the lid closed? Are you able to place your palm on the lid without needing to move away because of the heat?
Best Regards
Dennis
Dennis,
Hopefully I'll log more listening time this weekend as we have family in town all this week, but I already sense the similar clarity and immediacy of my balanced TAP-X, with just the right touch of tube sweetness. It is definitely a step up from the RVC/Tubestage, which was already very, very good. I think Vinnie's description is spot on :P
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Dennis,
Hopefully I'll log more listening time this weekend as we have family in town all this week, but I already sense the similar clarity and immediacy of my balanced TAP-X, with just the right touch of tube sweetness. It is definitely a step up from the RVC/Tubestage, which was already very, very good. I think Vinnie's description is spot on :P
The closed LIO is only moderately warm. You can place your hand on top and leave it if you wish.
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Hi TomS,
Thank you for your early AVC/Tubestage impressions and pics!
I also forgot to post this, showing where you swap the jumpers if you want to run in pure "AVC" mode (vs.
AVC + Tubestage mode, which labeled "TUBE" on the board.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=126150)
Before removing the board, make sure you waiting a few minutes after turning your LIO off (cool down) and unplug
the power cable.
I will say this - after trying it both ways, I will never go back to AVC mode. AVC + TUBES = :drool:
Are you able to place your palm on the lid without needing to move away because of the heat?
Hi denjo,
You need not have any concerns with heat (even with the tubestage). The top barely gets warm, and you can even locate
LIO in an area of little ventilation if you have to.
All the best,
Vinnie
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I will say this - after trying it both ways, I will never go back to AVC mode. AVC + TUBES = :drool:
All the best,
Vinnie
You're welcome :lol:
I had a hunch this would be something special. Now one of these days I gotta cough up the bucks for one.
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I also forgot to post this, showing where you swap the jumpers if you want to run in pure "AVC" mode (vs.
AVC + Tubestage mode, which labeled "TUBE" on the board.
All the best,
Vinnie
Are you kidding me? You can do it both ways with the SAME module? Why wasn't this ever mentioned? :bawl:
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Are you kidding me? You can do it both ways with the SAME module? Why wasn't this ever mentioned? :bawl:
Ummmm, it was. Take a look at the earlier string, Vinnie mentions it in his description.
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Ummmm, it was. Take a look at the earlier string, Vinnie mentions it in his description.
Yeah, jtwrace! I mentioned it in the first post of this thread :nono: :green:
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Yeah, jtwrace! I mentioned it in the first post of this thread :nono: :green:
That feature made my decision easy!
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That module looks beautiful, Vinnie! Wish I could spring the cost right now, but... some day!
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Just received it today
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=126236)
Replaced these
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=126237)
After installation
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=126238)
With Telefuken EC188
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=126240)
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Can't imagine the improvement in sound quality
Bass is much tighter, Mid bass is more mellow and slightly improve in the Treble
Really worth to replace ....
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Can't imagine the improvement in sound quality
Bass is much tighter, Mid bass is more mellow and slightly improve in the Treble
Really worth to replace ....
Hi Mitch751,
Thanks for posting!
Cheers!
Vinnie
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I received my LIO with AVC Tube Stage installed on 8/7/15. The sound is gorgeous. I listen primarily to digital so until today all of my listening (except a brief foray to confirm the phono stage was working) has been via DAC, which is amazing, until today. Well let me say the phono stage is equally amazing, if not more so. I have been listening to vinyl all today. To quote Herb Reichert of Stereophile "I have bathing in it's fragrant beauty" all day. I have the AVC without tube stage to audition to determine which I like best. Right now its hard to believe I will be able to improve on the AVC/Tube Stage but I have always been wedded to pure passives so compare I must. There is not a lot of incentive to even inquire at this point.
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I have the AVC without tube stage to audition to determine which I like best.
But you can switch the jumpers on your AVC+tube board to run it without the tubes. You don't need to audition an AVC board without tubes. You have it either way with the AVC+tube board.
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But you can switch the jumpers on your AVC+tube board to run it without the tubes. You don't need to audition an AVC board without tubes. You have it either way with the AVC+tube board.
That is very true but I am the kind of listener that is not going to be switching back and forth. I will stay with the one I like best ... and if that happens to be AVC only no sense in paying extra for a switching feature I will not use. If I Like AVC/Tube stage best then the extra expense becomes a non- issue as it is not prohibitive.
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Right now its hard to believe I will be able to improve on the AVC/Tube Stage but I have always been wedded to pure passives so compare I must. There is not a lot of incentive to even inquire at this point.
Hi yardbird4,
Thanks for your post! Sounds like your LIO configured with AVC/Tubestage has you glue to your listening chair. :thumb:
It's fun to make comparisons, but I know what you mean. When everything is sounding so good like that, I just want to listen
to album after album and not even think about the equipment for a while. :singing:
Hi newzooreview,
You are correct! AVC/Tubestage module with jumpers set to "AVC" position is identical to just having the AVC (tube output stage
is bypassed). AVC/Tubestage module with jumpers set to "TUBE" is the AVC + Tubestage, a beautiful marriage! :inlove:
Have fun!
Vinnie
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If listening to the LIO is like having a seat in the studio mix room, then the LIO with AVC/Tubestage is being in the room with the musicians. Tighter bass, wider/taller/deeper imaging, and more overall presence - there is simply more "there" there without adding anything unnatural or colored.
I honestly didn't think the AVC would make this big of a difference. I am genuinely (and pleasantly) surprised to hear further detail revealed while maintaining the musicality I have come to love from my LIO.
Well done Vinnie, well done. :thumb:
Tim
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Can't imagine the improvement in sound quality
Bass is much tighter, Mid bass is more mellow and slightly improve in the Treble
Really worth to replace ....
Improvement compared to what?
How does the AVC/Tube compare to AVC only?
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I received my LIO with AVC Tube Stage installed on 8/7/15. The sound is gorgeous. I listen primarily to digital so until today all of my listening (except a brief foray to confirm the phono stage was working) has been via DAC, which is amazing, until today. Well let me say the phono stage is equally amazing, if not more so. I have been listening to vinyl all today. To quote Herb Reichert of Stereophile "I have bathing in it's fragrant beauty" all day. I have the AVC without tube stage to audition to determine which I like best. Right now its hard to believe I will be able to improve on the AVC/Tube Stage but I have always been wedded to pure passives so compare I must. There is not a lot of incentive to even inquire at this point.
What LIO configuration? With amp or without (preamp only)?
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If listening to the LIO is like having a seat in the studio mix room, then the LIO with AVC/Tubestage is being in the room with the musicians. Tighter bass, wider/taller/deeper imaging, and more overall presence - there is simply more "there" there without adding anything unnatural or colored.
I honestly didn't think the AVC would make this big of a difference. I am genuinely (and pleasantly) surprised to hear further detail revealed while maintaining the musicality I have come to love from my LIO.
Well done Vinnie, well done. :thumb:
Tim
Hi Tim,
Thank you! And thank you for posting feedback on your LIO AVC/Tubestage module. 8)
I've said it before and I'll say it again - the LIO with AVC/Tubestage makes for an amazingly good sounding, off-the-grid, tube preamplifier with one of the best volume controls (if not THE best) available today! It's hard to match this kind sonic performance for the price - and when you follow that with LIO MOSFET AMP (or an external VR120 power amp), it is hard not to become totally addicted to it! :wink:
I'm glad you are hooked!
Improvement compared to what?
Hi Plink,
Compared to his LIO RVC and LIO Tubstage modules that his new LIO AVC/TUBESTAGE module replaced.
How does the AVC/Tube compare to AVC only?
I posted about this, here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=135549.msg1440877#msg1440877
Regarding yardbird4's comments, his LIO has the LIO MOSFET AMP module installed as well (integrated amp
w/ dac and phonostage). So fully integrated and isolated ultracapacitor powered... like we've been using at the
shows this year. :singing:
Vinnie
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Sorry I was tardy on this one Pink ... Vinnie's answer is correct..... by the way the sound gets better after the Tubes have completely burned in.
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All,
The BALANCED INPUTS and OUTPUTS modules should be out sometime in August.
Pricing and details coming soon (next month).
- Vinnie
Hi Vinnie. Is this available now? I'd like to have phono stage, but also a balanced input to feed the LIO from my DAC .
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Hi Vinnie. Is this available now? I'd like to have phono stage, but also a balanced input to feed the LIO from my DAC .
Hi doctorcilantro,
Not yet - but should be close!
For those who are waiting for this before ordering, you can order with the standard LIO INPUTS and OUTPUTS modules and
we can work out a swap when the BALANCED versions are ready (you would only pay any difference in pricing, which will not
be significant).
Thank you,
Vinnie
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Thanks V!
I'm closer to pulling the trigger. It's a big move for me as I have a lot invested in these separates.
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As this module has been out for some time now, what are your preffered tubes and why?
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Lio stock & Telefunken for me.
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As this module has been out for some time now, what are your preffered tubes and why?
Hi mirekti,
As Larry mentioned, it's hard to go wrong with the Telefunken E88CC (Upscale Audio has them new-in-the-box).
Check into the previous posts in this forum... it has been discussed.
Best regards,
Vinnie
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Hi mirekti,
As Larry mentioned, it's hard to go wrong with the Telefunken E88CC (Upscale Audio has them new-in-the-box).
Check into the previous posts in this forum... it has been discussed.
Best regards,
Vinnie
It's what I use too.
https://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/telefunken-e88cc-6922?variant=21828935301
You want Platinum and Cryo options.
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Ok, thanks for the replies. I just wondered what each tube brings or takes away.
I will start with the stock tubes for now and roll a bit later after I get to know stock ones beter.
This was already answered before, but it seems I cannot find it on search. Hoe many hours should one expect from the tubes in buffer before they need a replacement?
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Ok, thanks for the replies. I just wondered what each tube brings or takes away.
I will start with the stock tubes for now and roll a bit later after I get to know stock ones beter.
This was already answered before, but it seems I cannot find it on search. Hoe many hours should one expect from the tubes in buffer before they need a replacement?
Hi mirekti,
In the LIO's circuit, you can expect thousands of hours on the tubes (5+ years is not out of the ordinary here!)
Vinnie
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Ok, thanks for the replies. I just wondered what each tube brings or takes away.
I will start with the stock tubes for now and roll a bit later after I get to know stock ones beter.
This was already answered before, but it seems I cannot find it on search. Hoe many hours should one expect from the tubes in buffer before they need a replacement?
What state are you in?
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What state are you in?
TX
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TX
Do you own a LIO already?
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Do you own a LIO already?
It is being built in the factory, will have it in few weeks :)
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It is being built in the factory, will have it in few weeks :)
Congrats! You will be in love. After you get it and get acclimated to the sound (or lack of) reply back. Maybe I'll send you my Tele's to try so you don't have to spend $400 off the bat.
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Congrats! You will be in love. After you get it and get acclimated to the sound (or lack of) reply back. Maybe I'll send you my Tele's to try so you don't have to spend $400 off the bat.
Thanks a lot for your offer, I appreciate it.
I am curious what Telefunken can bring into the game, but maybe the best route is to stick to the stock tubes for few months first and get to know them well.
Cheers!!!
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Thanks a lot for your offer, I appreciate it.
I am curious what Telefunken can bring into the game, but maybe the best route is to stick to the stock tubes for few months first and get to know them well.
Cheers!!!
I was very happy with the stock JJ's. No doubt about that. That was until I installed the Tele's. Game over. :oops:
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Congrats! You will be in love. After you get it and get acclimated to the sound (or lack of) reply back. Maybe I'll send you my Tele's to try so you don't have to spend $400 off the bat.
Vinnie's legendary customer service continues to inspire customers too...share the LIO love :dance:
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Vinnie's legendary customer service continues to inspire customers too...share the LIO love :dance:
I have taken almost a year listening to few different tubes, and I rank them as follows :
1. Telefunken E188CC
2. RTC E188CC
3. Gold Aero 6922 EC88
4. Siemens E88CC
5. LIO Stock
6. Mullard E188CC
7. Amperex 6922
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I have taken almost a year listening to few different tubes, and I rank them as follows :
1. Telefunken E188CC
2. RTC E188CC
3. Gold Aero 6922 EC88
4. Siemens E88CC
5. LIO Stock
6. Mullard E188CC
7. Amperex 6922
Hi Mitch751,
Thanks for trying all those tubes and posting your ranking!
Is this the Telefunken E188CC that you ranked # 1:
https://www.tubedepot.com/products/telefunken-diamond-bottom-e188cc-7308-gold-pin
Have you even tried 1950s Siemens Cca, Amperex Pinched Waist (or 7308 "PQ"), or MiniWatt Dario E188CC?
So many good tubes to try, so little time :green:
All,
As we have seen with the DHT PRE tube rolling thread - based on your own system and tastes, everyone is going to have different findings with the various tubes and there is no "best" tube in general, but you will find there is a best tube for your tastes
as you listen to different tubes. Definitely post your findings! But to newcomers to tube rolling with their LIO, I just want
to point this out.
Also, there are instances where there are different versions of a particular tube. For example, "Amperex 6922". There
are many different Amperex 6922s (various production years, production countries, gold pins, white/orange/green label,
etc. etc).
Have fun and thanks for sharing your experiences,
Vinnie
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Hello Vinnie,
What you said is absolutely right.
Yes, this is the Telefunken E188CC that I mentioned, which I bought 30 years ago.
No, I have not tried 1950s Siemens Cca, Amperex Pinched Waist (or 7308 "PQ"), or MiniWatt Dario E188CC.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155845)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155846)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155848)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155849)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=155847)
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Ok, finally ordered my first Siemens CCa 60' and have a listen for few days.
My first impression, its sound quality is superb, especially in lower bass and excellent soundstage, and I really love it, so I have ordered another one but made in '50.
If you ask me to make a comparison with Telefunken E188CC, my subjective opinion - I think Telefunken is slightly outperforming, particular on the treble high side, and slightly more airily.
My person taste, I prefer Telefunken for Classical music, and leave the Pop /Rock / Jazz with Seimens CCa
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=156654)
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Hi Mitch751,
Thank you for posting about the Siemens CCa's!
If I recall correctly, I tried (borrowed) a pair of CCa's from the 50's (in RWA monoblocks) and they were
among the best 6922/7308 variation that I have heard. Like the Amperex 6922 Pinched Waist, they are
more rare (and expensive).
If you ask me to make a comparison with Telefunken E188CC, my subjective opinion - I think Telefunken is slightly outperforming, particular on the treble high side, and slightly more airily.
:thumb:
Thanks for posting your impressions (and pics!) of your LIO AVC/Tubestage tube rolling!
Vinnie
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I recently bought a pair of Telefunken E88CC's from TomS (the ones from Upscale Audio he posted pictures of). I haven't written up my impressions but suffice it to say they are an across the board improvement over the very good stock tubes. A worthwhile buy. Last week I did a favor for an audiophile friend and he "paid" me with box of old tubes. Two of these are Amperex 6922's from the early sixties. Although they are not matched and even come from different generations (one is a "white box" PQ, the other is an earlier "pinched waist") I tried them in my LIO today. Wow. This is THE tube for LIO to my ears. Not "better" than the Tele's in all ways but with a real touch of tube magic through the highs and midrange that I don't hear from either of the other tubes. So if you are looking for an alternative upgrade you might want to look at a pair of Amperex 6922 PQ'S.
If you go for the pinch waste, caveat emptor. My friend tested this one and marked the box "non-micro" and I hear no issues. But they are supposed to be prone to microphonics so be very careful.
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I recently bought a pair of Telefunken E88CC's from TomS (the ones from Upscale Audio he posted pictures of). I haven't written up my impressions but suffice it to say they are an across the board improvement over the very good stock tubes. A worthwhile buy. Last week I did a favor for an audiophile friend and he "paid" me with box of old tubes. Two of these are Amperex 6922's from the early sixties. Although they are not matched and even come from different generations (one is a "white box" PQ, the other is an earlier "pinched waist") I tried them in my LIO today. Wow. This is THE tube for LIO to my ears. Not "better" than the Tele's in all ways but with a real touch of tube magic through the highs and midrange that I don't hear from either of the other tubes. So if you are looking for an alternative upgrade you might want to look at a pair of Amperex 6922 PQ'S.
If you go for the pinch waste, caveat emptor. My friend tested this one and marked the box "non-micro" and I hear no issues. But they are supposed to be prone to microphonics so be very careful.
Good to hear they worked out for you.
I just happen to also have a set of those Amperex 6922 PQ's for sale too :wink:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=145899.msg1560898#msg1560898 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=145899.msg1560898#msg1560898)
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It looks like Telefunken is selling brand new matched pairs of the E88CC for $100, I'm guessing they are no match for the vintage variety?
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It looks like Telefunken is selling brand new matched pairs of the E88CC for $100, I'm guessing they are no match for the vintage variety?
Hi tme110,
They are definitely not the same. The new Telefunkens are made by JJ. :green:
Vinnie
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I am being offered a pair of Seimens E288CC and Telefunken E189CC, can you use these tubes with my LIO ?
Thank you
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I am being offered a pair of Seimens E288CC and Telefunken E189CC, can you use these tubes with my LIO ?
Thank you
Hi Mitch751,
No, you cannot use those with LIO Tubestage or AVC/Tubestage modules.
These are the ones you can use:
Accepted Tubes: 6922/E88CC, 6DJ8/ECC88, 7308/E188CC, 7DJ8/PCC88, 6N23, 6H23, 6N11, and 6GM8
Vinnie
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Thank you so much for the reply
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Hi mirekti,
In the LIO's circuit, you can expect thousands of hours on the tubes (5+ years is not out of the ordinary here!)
Vinnie
Would this be around 2,3 thousands of 8,9 thousands?
I am asking as LIO is being used for TV watching as well, so one can easily hit 10 hours daily.
What will I notice first when the tubes start to deteriorate?
Thanks!!!
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Would this be around 2,3 thousands of 8,9 thousands?
I am asking as LIO is being used for TV watching as well, so one can easily hit 10 hours daily.
Hi mirekti,
I don't have a way of knowing for sure, and I do have some customers still using their stock 6922 tubes from their
Red Wine Audio Signature 15 from year 2010, and they still seem to perform like new.
I expect this same type of longevity with the tubes used in LIO's circuitry (with the 6922s, and DHTs).
What will I notice first when the tubes start to deteriorate?
You would probably notice lower output level (reduced gain), noise, and perhaps more drastic signs (pops, intermittent sound, etc.).
Most likely, it would be in one channel, as the chances of both tubes showing this at the same time is unlikely. So then you can swap
tubes and see if it follows the tube or not.
Again - I don't think you'll hear this for 5 - 10 thousands of hours or more...
Vinnie
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And some DHTs are rated for 40,000 hours. All depends on the tube.
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And some DHTs are rated for 40,000 hours. All depends on the tube.
Yes, and that's under the stress of powering speakers. So in the linestage, they last much longer :green:
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Well, I think most were initially developed to push out sound as repeaters in telephone use (no, not the 300B, but the 101D for sure). I find tube design, etc. fascinating and have gone full on down the rabbit hole on some of this stuff. My wife believes me to be insane... I am reading a book about pre-1940 tube design in England currently. Anyway, I have always wondered whether there is truth to the statement that putting less voltage on the plates will provide longer life. The reason I wonder is because the cathode (heated by the filament or the filament in a DHT) is hot the entire time and releasing electrons. If the electron cloud is formed, does the electron remain bonded to the atom in the filament or is the bond broken such that it does not rebond to the cathode. I would assume the latter, not the former.
Regardless, I always think the 7dJ8 will last longer than the 6dj8 if you are running at 6.3v because you are hearing the filament a bit less than its rating.
Shawn