Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond

Halcro · « **Reply #1000 on:** 1 Mar 2015, 12:50 pm »

Hi Neo,
Glad you liked the pics. I agree that they give our conversations a little more interest particularly for most folk who may never have seen a lot of the cartridges you mention.....

I've read that ART9 Thread and saw the comments to which you refer.....
It sort of borrows from the old "speakers for classical" vs "speakers for rock" chestnut.....

IMHO...if a speaker can't perform well on all music types.....it can't really be called high fidelity.
And similarly (or more emphatically)...if a cartridge can't perform equally on all musical genres....it simply ain't doing its job......

I agree that the Z1/SAS when loaded at 47K presented an overly prominent bass and midrange....and I in fact noted this in my first impressions of the cartridge. Yet that colouration balanced out nicely with the 60K loading, but yes....the Z1/SAS is a particularly dynamic cartridge. I think that is part of its allure...

I can tell you that I have been digging out all my Mercury records to hear them balanced (and tamed) through the Z1/SAS in a way that no other cartridge has managed....

Kind Regards

neobop · « **Reply #1001 on:** 2 Mar 2015, 01:34 pm »

Living Presence more dynamically done? Seems like you're playing to the strengths of the cart. Maybe you'll hear what I mean with more limited instrumentation, acoustic stuff you're familiar with.

I couldn't imagine loading the X1 at 60K. Although the bass has extra dynamics, the top was not deficient, or the presentation distant. 60K is a load for an M97 w/stock stylus. Maybe that's unfair, your Z1 isn't high inductance with rolled response. Still, it doesn't seem appropriate.

I think what I said in the first place, is appropriate. A stylus/cantilever can only respond and vibrate one way to a particular groove modulation, but in a continuous flow. If that response is extra dynamic it would tend to have deficient micro dynamics.

It will be interesting if/how your results change as you get more familiar with your new favorite. When I check out the Z1 I'll be sure to try your recommended load. I now have the caps - that's 200pF + cables?
neo

griffithds · « **Reply #1002 on:** 2 Mar 2015, 03:52 pm »

Neo,

The X-1 or Z-1 were designed to be CD4 compatible.
The JVC spec. sheet states "Load 47-100K ohms"
What makes loading it within the designers load range, so hard to imagine?
Regards,

neobop · « **Reply #1003 on:** 3 Mar 2015, 01:31 pm »

Griff,
You make it seem as if I was outside of the recommended range. I was not.

It was the sound, as I explained. Due to physical conditions I wasn't using the AHT, so it would have been impossible anyway.

This brings up another aspect -frame of reference. We tend to think what we're used to is correct, and everything else is some kind of aberration or wrong. I tried not to fall into that trap as the X1 seemed very different from what I'm used to. But when it comes to those Steeple Chase (and Enja) records it's not a question of taste or preference, it's either all there and in correct proportions like real instruments, or not.

I'll check out alternate loads with the Z1 when the time comes. I never favored uber dynamic presentations, usually listening somewhere between near field and "normal" living room type distance. Very dynamic can sound like a DJ cart. I wonder what a Shure 44-7 would be like with an exotic stylus?

I still think that very dynamic would tend to obliterate some fine detail, but I'll try not to let conjecture get the best of objectivity.
neo

griffithds · « **Reply #1004 on:** 3 Mar 2015, 03:30 pm »

HI Neo,

Actually it is what or "how you put it" that made it seem like every one else including the designer, were loading it wrong. Your statement
'I couldn't imagine loading the X1 at 60K', and 'Still, it doesn't seem appropriate' seems to imply 'we' are loading it incorrectly. It is possible and quite likely, that if you had loaded that cartridge at something other than 47K, your results on those test records would have been different. Whether you would have preferred those results is a different matter! But to guess at what those results would have been is not very scientific.
Regards,

neobop · « **Reply #1005 on:** 3 Mar 2015, 06:31 pm »

Hi Griff,
I assumed it would be understood those comments would be based entirely on my results. I've also never been successful with a 100K load although it seems to work for some people. Maybe there's an aspect of this that warrants discussion?
Looking at MM test reports (there are quite a few in this thread) they invariably get bright at 75 - 100K and many have jagged response - big peaks and dips. Even those designed for 4-ch exhibit a rising high end. Those in particular can't be loaded down with capacitance (not for 4-ch), as some do.

But you're right, I didn't try 60K. That was based on my assumption of results and the physical reality of listening room temperature swings. Listening time was cut short by the necessity to warm up the room. The AHT is particularly heat sensitive and it would have been nearly impossible. DC offset is set manually. The bright side is temps are rising and it should be a lot easier with the Z1. I've left the Alphason set up just as it was.

Sorry to disappoint, but I really don't think results would have been better with the records in question. My guess is it would have been worse. The Z1 looks to be virtually identical cart despite HF extension spec, so we'll see. With an SAS it should be more exact.
Regards,
neo

artman · « **Reply #1006 on:** 5 Mar 2015, 09:52 pm »

Hello All,

I'm new to this thread, but I've been watching it keenly. I just purchased a Victor Z1S and I'm wondering about differences between the different Victor Z1 cartridges. I want to purchase a Jico SAS diamond for it, but I noticed that Halcro has a Z1 with the clear plastic stylus designated as DT-Z1 SAS on the Jico site and the stylus for the Z1S is the DT-Z1S SAS. Does anyone know if the Z1S and the Z1 are the same cartridge and does anyone know if these styli are similar?

Thanks for doing what you do.

Pat

Halcro · « **Reply #1007 on:** 6 Mar 2015, 01:44 pm »

Quote from: artman on 5 Mar 2015, 09:52 pm

Hello All,

I'm new to this thread, but I've been watching it keenly. I just purchased a Victor Z1S and I'm wondering about differences between the different Victor Z1 cartridges. I want to purchase a Jico SAS diamond for it, but I noticed that Halcro has a Z1 with the clear plastic stylus designated as DT-Z1 SAS on the Jico site and the stylus for the Z1S is the DT-Z1S SAS. Does anyone know if the Z1S and the Z1 are the same cartridge and does anyone know if these styli are similar?

Thanks for doing what you do.

Pat

Good question Pat.....
I didn't even know there were different Z1 cartridges till I saw the different styli on the Jico site..

Perhaps Griff can enlighten us...?

griffithds · « **Reply #1008 on:** 6 Mar 2015, 06:04 pm »

Hi Pat.

All Z-1 bodies are the same. There is a Z-1, Z-1S, Z-1E, Z-1EB, Z-4 which is also a Z-1 and a few others. All the same. All the stylus are interchangeable. But they are not interchangeable with the X-1. The cartridge generators are very similar but they (Victor/JVC), changed the diameter of the tube that slides into the cartridge body so the X-1 and Z-1 are NOT interchangeable. But they do sound the same. I own both and have to get up and go over to the turntable to be able to make a correct determination as to which one is mounted and playing. That is unless you have the SAS stylus attached. No mistaking it when it is mounted. Also, when you order the SAS from Jico you can get the clear housing, the green housing or the orange housing. These are the different colors of the -1 (clear), the -1E (orange),or the -1EB (green), stylus housings. Exact same SAS stylus but just in case you want to stay with the same color of the 'Z' cartridge that you own, Jico supplies you with the option to buy the same color of stylus housing. The 'clear' housing is the color of the one that came with the Z-1. Just for information purposes, the Z-1 was a Beryllium cantilever with a Shibata tip. The 'E' versions were Elliptical tip. The 'S' version is conical or spherical. The 'B' on the 'EB' version was E for Elliptical, B for Beryllium.
Hope this answers your questions. If not, then ask again because someone could write a book on all the variations of this Jem!
Regards,

artman · « **Reply #1009 on:** 6 Mar 2015, 08:39 pm »

Hi Griff,

Thanks for the thorough reply. There is also a grey SAS stylus, which I think must have been the original colour of the Z1S stylus. The reason I asked the question, is that when you look at the photo of the different SAS styli on the Jico website, it look as though the SAS stylus in the clear plastic is a different shape than the SAS stylus in the grey colour. It must just be a low quality photograph. Thanks for your input. I'm going to order a stylus this weekend.

Regards,

Pat

griffithds · « **Reply #1010 on:** 7 Mar 2015, 02:59 am »

Hi Pat,

I forgot to mention the gray -1S stylus housing. Probably because no one buys the Z-1S to actually 'use' the conical stylus! That's kind of sad because the acutal 'S' conical stylus is not all that bad! Also the gray stylus housing is a little different in its shape. Not as sturdy as the others. The 'S' stylus is also the only stylus that does not have the 'tension wire' design.
I would not put to much faith in the pictures that you see on the Jico site. or any site for that matter. Sometimes there is just one picture and sellers will rotate the item descriptions around that same picture. So what you see is similar but not the actual item.
You will be shocked at how good the Z-1 SAS is. The best part of all is that you will not have to comb the auction sites for months on end to find a replacement stylus for your old gem. Just place an order! (grin)
Regards,

artman · « **Reply #1011 on:** 7 Mar 2015, 04:46 am »

Hi Griff,

I ordered the grey Z1S stylus. I'm assuming that they are all the same. Should I have ordered the clear stylus?

Thanks

neobop · « **Reply #1012 on:** 7 Mar 2015, 03:09 pm »

Welcome Artman, welcome to Vinyl Circle.
What carts have you been using? Please let us know what you think after you get the Z1 up and running.

neo

artman · « **Reply #1013 on:** 7 Mar 2015, 03:45 pm »

Hi Neo,

I've used the following cartridges: Grace 9E, Monster Cable Alpha 2, Monster Cable Sigma 1000, Fidelity Research FR1 Mk3 original and a Soundsmith FR1, Accuphase AC1 and an AC1 retipped by Soundsmith, Denon DL107, Denon 103 original and with UWE wood body, Empire 4000D mk3, Koetsu Black with vdh tip, AKG P7, Nagaoka MP50.

My favourite of the lot is the Empire 4000. It has all the detail of the moving coils carts with none of their agressiveness. Im looking forward to trying the Victor Z1.

Regards,

Pat

griffithds · « **Reply #1014 on:** 7 Mar 2015, 03:46 pm »

Hello Artman,

When you say you ordered the gray Z1S stylus, there is no mention of SAS in this statement? This would implly that you ordered the conical (spherical)? This is what is sound like to me?
I believe all the SAS stylus's for this Victor Z-1 are priced at $133. Doesn't matter which color of housing you choose, The price is still $133. What did you pay for yours, or better yet, what is the item # listed on the Jico site that you ordered. If it was the conical, well, I could have sent you many of those for free!

neobop · « **Reply #1015 on:** 7 Mar 2015, 04:14 pm »

It amazes me that even though this thread has been going for awhile now, there are nearly 60K views. In light of that I want to go over a couple of things most of us already know.

Classical (acoustic) music is the hardest to reproduce correctly. We used to have certain demo records like "Dark Side of the Moon" or "Brothers in Arms" that could show off a system, but classical is the acid test of phono capability. It's so easy to get it wrong.

Recent thread on Agon about MC cart loading was interesting. Atmasphere's contention that the cart generates its own RFI is a novel way of looking at the tank circuit from inductance/capacitance. Since radio frequency is 3KHz on up to 300GHz, the possible overload or oscillation caused, could be considered RFI. Adding capacitance will lower the frequency of resonance. Everybody used to say that MC's were immune to capacitance loading, but that depends.

If you hear a tonal change (MC) with load change, then you're hearing a change in RFI interference at the particular load. The changes I referred to in previous posts were of imaging, stage, dynamics and focus, not tonal. When I had a problem with the DL-S1 the HF overload inter-modulated down through the mid/treble and gave everything an unpleasant sheen or glare. Not an uncommon occurrence, on Asylum, Ellison loads his at something like 22 ohms, which is below the cart resistance.
Designers like Atmasphere or J. Carr say the stage is flawed. Since the only way to prevent this is to limit bandwidth, I think the cart is flawed. They also say to load it as high as possible, but when you do you're often trading off focus/detail for dynamics and big stage.
neo

artman · « **Reply #1016 on:** 7 Mar 2015, 04:33 pm »

Hi Griff,

I ordered the grey SAS version that lists for $133.00. Is it the same as the clear version SAS that also lists for 133.00?

Thanks,

Pat

griffithds · « **Reply #1017 on:** 7 Mar 2015, 08:50 pm »

Pat,

Ahhh grasshoppa, you did good!

neobop · « **Reply #1018 on:** 10 Mar 2015, 05:40 pm »

But Grasshopper is VDH.

Pretty lame I know, but I thought of my old partner's Goldmund Reference w/Grasshopper when I read that. Nice sounding table, I guess you could say authoritative.

I found a couple of classical replacement records on Agon. They are both Carlos Kleiber conducting Beethoven's 5th, and Brahms' 4th on DG. I'm awaiting delivery. Carlos Kleiber was the greatest conductor I've heard. Other readings often sound silly or awkward in comparison.

Griff, now might be a good time to send the Z1, if you're still so inclined. The X1 is pretty amazing and I expect the Z1/SAS at 60K or whatever, to overcome any limitations. We often get what we expect and I'm thinking no caveats this time. Thanks again for making this possible.
neo

griffithds · « **Reply #1019 on:** 10 Mar 2015, 06:27 pm »

Hi Neo,

For a moment I had to think what you meant by VdH! Then it hit me

Not so lame after all!
In regards to the Z-1 SAS. You will have to wait. The professor Tom needed a Z-1 body so I sent him one. I left the SAS attached for him to listen to so as soon as he returns the stylus, I will mount it on my new Z-1E body and send it to you. Of course I will have to spin a few records first!