Face-off: Belt versus Direct Drive

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #20 on:** 28 Nov 2007, 02:34 am »

Quote from: JoshK on 27 Nov 2007, 04:59 pm

P.S. the economist in me (what little there is) wants to argue that it is hard to beat economies of scale. Just because the mass producers' goods cost less doesn't mean it will underperform. That is what I'd keep in the back of my mind.

Econ-o-Josh

I'm not trained as one, but I think like one...as this is always foremost in my mind when selecting (audio or video) equipment

That is a dang interesting announcement about VPI, PeteG

John

GregC · « **Reply #21 on:** 28 Nov 2007, 02:36 am »

Quote

Hey Greg - great (informative) post!

John

Thanks John, I am glad you enjoyed it. I enjoy reading posts here on AC and I have learned a lot so I am glad when I can find time to contribute once in awhile.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #22 on:** 28 Nov 2007, 04:06 am »

It's good to give, Greg

Hey - Brit Audio, the fella' in Pittsburgh that did the Incognito re-wire, informed me that it takes 30 hours or so for the wire to fully break-in. So, I'll give it another 15 hours or so until making a final determination about the VPI/Rega combo. If wire is having 'phasey/break-in' issues, it can cause a type of error message in my head when listening to it.

Honestly, the combo sounded quite good at first and has gotten worse - the exact way I've noticed countless new pieces of wire sounding to me in the past. So, it may well be some break-in occurring. I'll reserve further and final judgement/verdict until then

Let me put a plug in for Michael at Brit Audio. For one, he's really a Brit - not just acting. For another, his service is excellent - he did the re-wire on the same day it arrived there...packed it up and sent it out better wrapped then he even received it from me. He shipped it the next day.

Using USPS Priority Mail to traverse the 2800 miles each way, it was back in my grubby hands in only 6 days

Truly - fantastic service by both Brit Audio and the US Postal Service

John

djbnh · « **Reply #23 on:** 28 Nov 2007, 12:23 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 28 Nov 2007, 04:06 am

It's good to give, Greg

Hey - Brit Audio, the fella' in Pittsburgh that did the Incognito re-wire, informed me that it takes 30 hours or so for the wire to fully break-in.

Let me put a plug in for Michael at Brit Audio. For one, he's really a Brit - not just acting. For another, his service is excellent - he did the re-wire on the same day it arrived there...packed it up and sent it out better wrapped then he even received it from me. He shipped it the next day.

Using USPS Priority Mail to traverse the 2800 miles each way, it was back in my grubby hands in only 6 days

Truly - fantastic service by both Brit Audio and the US Postal Service

John

Interesting to hear Brit Audio mentioned here. I purchased from them a J A Michell Tecnoweight for my RB600, great transaction. However, I've tried to access their website in the past couple weeks with no success. Anyone have any idea what's up? FYI - site addy = www.britaudio.com/ When I go to the Google cached file, it shows the website was last updated 11/18/07. Weird.

EDIT - I finally could get the products page to load, went to: http://www.britaudio.com/AllProducts.html. However, 1) I can't get anything else to load; and 2) subsequently the products page would NOT load. If someone has Mike's e-mail, perhaps it'd be nice to let him know about the site issues.

BobM · « **Reply #24 on:** 28 Nov 2007, 12:35 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 28 Nov 2007, 04:06 am

It's good to give, Greg

Hey - Brit Audio, the fella' in Pittsburgh that did the Incognito re-wire, informed me that it takes 30 hours or so for the wire to fully break-in. So, I'll give it another 15 hours or so until making a final determination about the VPI/Rega combo. If wire is having 'phasey/break-in' issues, it can cause a type of error message in my head when listening to it.
John

Now why would a phono wire, with a wee tiny signal in it, only take 30 hours to break in when interconnects and speaker wire, with relatively larger signal strength in them, take 100 hours or more? If you have a tonearm rewired, or get a new tonearm cable, the best thing to do is to wire up a jig to some RCA jacks. Plug these RCA's into the output of your CD player and the wired jig to your tonearm headshell clips. Then run your CD on repeat, using the tonearm and its wire as the interconnect into your preamp. Much better burn in then relying on a very weak signal from your cartridge to burn in that new cable - it would take 1000 hours or more the old fashioned way!

Enjoy,
Bob

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #25 on:** 28 Nov 2007, 03:04 pm »

djbnh
Hi - Michael's email is teatime66@hotmail.com. Everything opens up just peachy for me each time - in Mozilla (my default browser)

BobM
Except for magnet wire and Alpha-Core Goertz stuff....I, too, have found break ins to be longer than 30 hours. I don't have your technical savvy...so I'll have to break it in the old fashioned way

My belief on the whole break in issue, due to the minimal or no break-in time needed for the magnet wire and Alpha-Core stuff, is that it is dialectric burn-in that we are all waiting on, not ht wire itself. The magnet wire and Alpha-Core have very, very thin dialectrics - good for less interaction with the wire - that take nearly no time to burn/break in.

Teflon dialetrics seem to take the longest for whatever reason...the common plastic jackets on zip cords and cheap Monster / Radio Shack cable doesn't take that long either.

The Cardas uses teflon - so it'll probably need a good long break-in time at these milli-voltages, as Bob points out. Fortunately, I work at home, so a good week of playback should do it. btw, it is sounding better at about hour 18 as of last night....I found myself bopping my head to Genesis 'Duke'...something I haven't done listening to the VPI in about 17 hours. It IS sounding better...Brit Audio should probably state that somewhere in his threadbare website about break-in. It's a lot harder to break in phono than line level components, especially as most audiophools have manual decks that require assistance.

Brit Audio only tests for continuity of teh connections, no burn in there

djbnh · « **Reply #26 on:** 28 Nov 2007, 03:11 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 28 Nov 2007, 03:04 pm

djbnh
Hi - Michael's email is teatime66@hotmail.com. Everything opens up just peachy for me each time - in Mozilla (my default browser)

I've tried Mozilla Firefox (my default), IE, and Netscape - nothing doing. I know he has an eBay presence, and I can view some of his offerings there.

Also, TheChairGuy - can you clear your cache then see if his pages display?

PeteG · « **Reply #27 on:** 28 Nov 2007, 03:20 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 28 Nov 2007, 04:06 am

It's good to give, Greg

Hey - Brit Audio, the fella' in Pittsburgh that did the Incognito re-wire, informed me that it takes 30 hours or so for the wire to fully break-in. So, I'll give it another 15 hours or so until making a final determination about the VPI/Rega combo. If wire is having 'phasey/break-in' issues, it can cause a type of error message in my head when listening to it.

Honestly, the combo sounded quite good at first and has gotten worse - the exact way I've noticed countless new pieces of wire sounding to me in the past. So, it may well be some break-in occurring. I'll reserve further and final judgement/verdict until then

Let me put a plug in for Michael at Brit Audio. For one, he's really a Brit - not just acting. For another, his service is excellent - he did the re-wire on the same day it arrived there...packed it up and sent it out better wrapped then he even received it from me. He shipped it the next day.

Using USPS Priority Mail to traverse the 2800 miles each way, it was back in my grubby hands in only 6 days

Truly - fantastic service by both Brit Audio and the US Postal Service

John

I used them years ago to rewire a AQ PT-7 arm on a previous TT I had, very good service. Takes a little while to break-in.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #28 on:** 28 Nov 2007, 04:14 pm »

djbnh
Everything opens for me just fine...even in Explorer. It seems to even work faster in IE, however.

Maybe you have a Malware/Spyware program interfering with his site? Might want to look at it if you have...some (like Spyware Blaster) have restricted sites - maybe Brit Audio is on it for some earthly reason(?)

There is always of course that fantastic fix-it of shutting down and booting up again

John

Hank · « **Reply #29 on:** 28 Nov 2007, 05:45 pm »

Quote

The VPI Scouts are another good buy, but the Scoutmaster is by far the better table. You can buy factory referbished Sotas directly from Sota, and they are a great table.

Gary, thanks for the tip on a factory refurbed SOTA - I'll check their web site.

djbnh · « **Reply #30 on:** 28 Nov 2007, 08:56 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 28 Nov 2007, 04:14 pm

djbnh
Maybe you have a Malware/Spyware program interfering with his site? Might want to look at it if you have...some (like Spyware Blaster) have restricted sites - maybe Brit Audio is on it for some earthly reason(?)
John

John,

Good input. I shut down BlackIce, and the site came through. Thanks again.

Wayner · « **Reply #31 on:** 28 Nov 2007, 10:41 pm »

I guess someone will have to explain the theory of wire break-in to me. Pure copper atoms are more than happy to pass on electrons while the insulator is not. I have never witnessed such a "break-in" in my entire life. I think what people perceive as a break-in is actually the brain adjusting and learning the way something sounds and soon decides that it likes it. In other words, it is psychological, not physical.....at least until someone can prove the theory, in MHO.

W

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #32 on:** 29 Nov 2007, 03:31 am »

I'll pass on commenting, Wayner...if you don't hear break-in, consider yourself fortunate

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #33 on:** 29 Nov 2007, 03:43 am »

Soooo....I joined the swollen ranks of audiophool Technics SL-1200 MK. II owners today...I bought (what I hope is) a gently used 1200 from ebay.

The arm looks abused...but I'm only interested in hearing the arm for a few moments 'cause I also today bought one of these aa:

http://www.tonearm.co.uk/dj-technics-arm.htm

I'm gonna' (hopefully) once and for all mate an excellent deck / best value today (at least for speed control)....with one of the best tonearms out there, the modded Rega 250. I have the Expressimo VTA adjuster so I won't lose that ability either.

I'm looking forward to putting this tandem together soon and reporting back.

As previously mentioned, I have never heard the Ortofon X5-MC sound as good as it does mated to the Rega...I figure if it can improve that cartridge, it MUST be a as nice an arm as many say. I'll miss semi-auto function of my much-loved JVC, tho

Another week - another vinyl project - I LOVE it - I'm stoked!!

John

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #34 on:** 29 Nov 2007, 03:16 pm »

Get better soon, lcrim (Larry)! He's relaxing and reading Audio Circle now after surgery recently.

A few of you may be wondering why I'm moving right to the Rega arm on the Technics...rather than sticking with KAB's (easier) damping trough mod with the existing arm. Tho, most of you don't give a shit...and that seems very healthy

I bought the deck for only $125.00 on ebay...the Origin Live adaptor was $75.00...so I'm $200.00 less in the hole than I'd be for a new Technics 1200 with factory arm. $50-$100.00 less than most used ones as they fetch a pretty good price even used. This was cheap 'cause the armrest was busted - not an issue for me as I'm replacing the arm.

Another reason, it's not that big a job....one reviewer did it in 45 minutes: http://www.tonearm.co.uk/Technics_sl1200_1210_dj_turntable.pdf

I've already determined that a damping trough helps performance HUGELY by cooking up a homebrew trough for my earlier 'junker' JVC QL-A2 deck:

What hasn't been known is that I did the same with the Rega arm and it had likewise good, but NOT excellent results...tho, the only place I could secure it was at the end of the tonearm on my VPI:

With the Rega attached to the Technics SL-1200 Mk. II I should have room to fashion a trough in the more advantageous spot before the arm pillar...not after it.

Hell, what I'd really like to do is fashion a trough in front of the headshell...a la Townshend, where I think it does the most good damping resonances even before it enters the armtube.

THAT man has been on to something for nearly 30 years now:

twitch54 · « **Reply #35 on:** 30 Nov 2007, 10:30 pm »

John, Interesting project you have going on ! While I too had a favorite DD / TT back in "the day" ( Kenwood KD-500, Premier MMT arm, Grace F-9e super cart) I must say my present set-up which is belt driven has yielded me the most sonic pleasure to date.

Currently using a VPI Aries 3, 10.5i arm, VPI/DynaVector 20x cart., with synchronization being performed by a VPI SDS unit.

I understand those who love the suspended systems but I'm lucky enough to have my TT well isolated and the floor that it resides on is carpet over concrete rather than suspended wooden structure.

Hank · « **Reply #36 on:** 1 Dec 2007, 04:51 pm »

Quote

I have never witnessed such a "break-in" in my entire life. I think what people perceive as a break-in is actually the brain adjusting and learning the way something sounds and soon decides that it likes it. In other words, it is psychological, not physical

Wayner, I agree. I've been around longer than most here, I'd wager, from building an H.H. Scott LK48B as a teen about 1967 to building speakers the past several years. I've know lots of audiophools, from DIY-ers to guys with tube equipment that cost 1/4 the cost of their house. I really believe the "break-in" is acclimation to a piece of audio equipment in a person's system, from front end to I/C's to speaker cables. My analogy is the phsychological attachment to a new piece of gear, becoming used to its sound and then being a strong proponent (witness the heavily weighted Technics leaning of this forum). After all, who would say: that last piece of gear I agonized over, A-B'd, read reviews, listened to critically and purchased, is good, okay, fine. The majority of time when money committed, then our subjective sound perception is parallel committed. Hey, I'm no different!

Flame suit now donned.
I say ENJOY what you eventually commit to

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #37 on:** 1 Dec 2007, 05:09 pm »

I'm thinking that the only time I've 'witnessed' the phenomenom of break-in with various wire used...is when they have teflon dialectric/insulation. I really think the teflon imparts some sort of something into the proceeding...that needs hours to work it's way thru.

It's usually a lot of hours, too. Maybe teflon is such a tough insulator that it just takes longer to work it's way thru. Maybe the reason it works as a protective sheath so well, is the same reason we 'hear' it so regularly.

Cheaper cables, usually using non-teflon insulation (for cost, generally) suffer from zero break-in that I can tell.

However, whether it's teflon or even 'air-dialectric' with a teflon tube...I absolutely hear it's effects - and it's nasty stuff. Cheap wire, from Radio Shack or other, or magnet wire or even Alpha-Core wire (which specifically uses a very thin dialectric of non-teflon construction) has zero break-in effects.

So, Wayner (maybe Hank, too), if you've never used wire with teflon insulation may well NOT have heard break-in effect.

I know it's there - and when it's not there - and there are likely reasons for both. The reason I think it is is because of the interaction with teflon and copper (or silver) wiring.

John

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #38 on:** 6 Dec 2007, 05:33 pm »

In another forum someone mentioned I might have inadvertently rigged the competition to the direct drive's benefit.

So, I'm tightening up the differences and tossing even more the way of the belt drive VPI.

I bought a new tonearm and mounting board for it....an Audioquest PT-6. The arm has fluid damping - a must to get the goods from the Grado. Then, I fitted it with my Grado G1+ (shibata stylus). THEN - I bought an audio buddies custom outer record clamp made by Sound Engineering, LLP:

http://www.soundengineeringllp.com/productdisplay.asp?id=1

It has a nifty VTAF (VTA on the Fly) from Pete Riggle that allows for easy VTA adjustment, but leaves the tonearm completely de-coupled from it's mounting hold for seismic bass (so says the reviews).

http://www.vtaf.com/

I have to tinker a bit more with it and then do a further comparo. The deck is now clearly loaded in both time, money and thoughtfulness to the VPI belt drive - let's see if its enough to overcome the speed issues of non-regulated, belt drive.

As well, the Origin Live mounting plate to mount the Rega on the Technics SL-1200 Mk. II arrived yesterday...and the Technics is to follow here soon.

So, I'll have 3 decks/set-ups here that should tell me a lot about the nature and relationship of drive mmechanisms and tonearms as they relate to quality playback.

This all sounds rather scientific for a marketing major, eh?

John

Toka · « **Reply #39 on:** 6 Dec 2007, 05:48 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 6 Dec 2007, 05:33 pm

In another forum someone mentioned I might have inadvertently rigged the competition to the direct drive's benefit.

How so? In any event, kudos for the continued work! Hope you find time to sit back and enjoy them too.