[Vedder323]

I am doing some research on what most people would want in a phono cable ranging from materials to value etc? I am hoping for some feedback from you guys on what you would want to see in a phono cable? Please let me know what materials you would pick for the conductors, which connectors you would want? What about capacitance? Do you care about those numbers and specs? Do you want a ground wire to be attached to the cable?

[dimkasta]

I will describe mine, because basically I love it

Single run (no switching headshells, no 6pin connectors) of silver plated copper, FEP insulation, ~15pF capacitance per foot, fully shielded,  32awg

Silver or good quality gold plated tags and equally good quality RCAs. About RCAs, I am currently using silver bullets, but I also love some Chinese WBT replicas. Stay away from Neutrik pros... FAR away

For the grounding I am using some cheap plain wire and it does not run with the RCAs

[Speedskater]

Do you mean the cable cable from the output of the tonearm base to the input of the pre-amp?

If so then:
a] A suitable amount of total capacitance (cable + pre-amp input stage) for the cartridge of choice.
b] Reasonable length.
c] Reasonable shielding.

Notice that [a] might be different for every cartridge and pre-amp combination.

[Vedder323]

Do you mean the cable cable from the output of the tonearm base to the input of the pre-amp?

If so then:
a] A suitable amount of total capacitance (cable + pre-amp input stage) for the cartridge of choice.
b] Reasonable length.
c] Reasonable shielding.

Notice that [a] might be different for every cartridge and pre-amp combination.

Sorry just for clarification, im talking about the RCA-RCA or Din-RCA from the table to the phono preamp.

[BobM]

Whatever the composition and materials I would ask that the manufacturer break in the phono cable on a cable cooker for 100 hours + before selling it.

Think about it ... a typical interconnect passes a 2 volt signal and takes about 100 hours to break in properly, sometimes more if there is silver and teflon involved. A phono cable passes a 1 mv signal, give or take. It will never break in properly unless it is cooked first!

[Speedskater]

But Bob, we are talking about the output of a phono cartridge which is only a few millivolts, so it would over a year of continuous record play to break-in the cable. Even at 100 hours, that 200 record sides.

[BobM]

But Bob, we are talking about the output of a phono cartridge which is only a few millivolts, so it would over a year of continuous record play to break-in the cable. Even at 100 hours, that 200 record sides.

Exactly - so the manufacturer would need a stonger signal to be sent through it for about 100 hours or so to break it in before delivering it to the consumer. I would bet most people who have a turntable have a DIN -> RCA cable connected to it that has never been properly broken in. Same goes for the wire from the cartridge to the DIN connector at the other end of the tonearm.

[dimkasta]

Exactly - so the manufacturer would need a stonger signal to be sent through it for about 100 hours or so to break it in before delivering it to the consumer. I would bet most people who have a turntable have a DIN -> RCA cable connected to it that has never been properly broken in. Same goes for the wire from the cartridge to the DIN connector at the other end of the tonearm.

Good logic but a bit oversimplified.
Breaking in is extremely non-documented as a procedure.  And ~2V can be as much arbitrarily chosen as adequate for breaking in as any other voltage.

Not to mention that a preamp with the volume at 10-12 o clock outputs a signal not significantly bigger than an MM cartridge and still manages to break the cable in without problems.

And phono cabling tends to be significantly thinner, logically making the procedure faster with less material, smaller joints and smaller dielectric surfaces

But as I said, everything is mostly personal experiences with very little proven or documented weight.

[neobop]

This is a really cool LP from the '80s.  I don't think the concept applies to phono cables.  This thread was kind of strange from the onset and now it seems really bizarre.  Ask a 1000 record playing enthusiasts what phono cables they like and you'll probably get more than a 1000 answers.  Many with multiple carts probably like more than a couple different cables.  I don't know about you guys, but I like ones that sound good. 
neo

[neobop]

Sorry to put a damper on the festivities here, it's just that the question seems strange, like this is some kind of marketing research on cables of all things.  Surely you jest.

Yes, I want copper or silver with no dielectric - a continuous run from tags to preamp, but if I pick up a radio station then I'd like copper shielding please. And while you're at it why don't you have them cryogenically treated?  I don't know if that does anything for the SQ, but it seems like a cool thing, literally.  Couldn't hurt, right?

They should be free, supplied with the arm instead of the crap they give you which everybody replaces.  If these are to be sold then you better make them shielded and hire a copywriter to tell everyone how great they are.  That's more important than actual performance.  Get some endorsements from famous people in the industry.  You can just make them up, nobody will know for a long time.

"Do you want a ground wire to be attached to the cable?"
Seems like a good idea, it might be hard to convince people the hum is part of the performance.  Especially with a 5 pin DIN plug - without a ground wire you could have a serious problem.  Speaking of DIN plugs, whether straight or L shaped it usually looks better to use thin cable that fits nicely in the plug, although you could use some fat cable and cut down the outer insulation and use some heat shrink or fancy cable jacket to cover the mess going into the plug.  Of course that will take some extra work and you'll have to charge accordingly. 

Break-in seems to be an issue.  RCA to RCA isn't a problem. Just hook em up between your cable box and TV sound and you'll have them broken in in no time.  I have this handy little DIN to RCA adaptor ($79.95) for the other cables.  Use the adaptor then plug into TV.....
(note) I don't really have such an adaptor, but it wouldn't be hard to make.  Put audiofool wire and WBTs on and it's a $350 item. 
neo

 

I am doing some research on what most people would want in a phono cable ranging from materials to value etc? I am hoping for some feedback from you guys on what you would want to see in a phono cable? Please let me know what materials you would pick for the conductors, which connectors you would want? What about capacitance? Do you care about those numbers and specs? Do you want a ground wire to be attached to the cable?

[MaxCast]

Or, we could just answer the questions and not debate each's answers.   

[neobop]

Or, we could just answer the questions and not debate each's answers.   

You're the only one saying something that has nothing to do with tonearm cables.  If people have differing opinions, should they not debate?

Seems to me there wouldn't be much to talk about. 

neo

[Jeff K]

Break-in seems to be an issue.  RCA to RCA isn't a problem. Just hook em up between your cable box and TV sound and you'll have them broken in in no time.  I have this handy little DIN to RCA adaptor ($79.95) for the other cables.  Use the adaptor then plug into TV.....
(note) I don't really have such an adaptor, but it wouldn't be hard to make.  Put audiofool wire and WBTs on and it's a $350 item. 
neo

Is there an inconsistency here? Audiofool wires and break-in seems to be an issue? 

From someone that appears rooted in science, I'm surprised you may think wire breaks in.

[BobM]

From someone that appears rooted in science, I'm surprised you may think wire breaks in.

Uhh (to add to the "debate") ... cables definitely change from when they are first new. Whether you want to call this break in or not is up to you.

[dimkasta]

This is off topic. but if you still doubt breaking in or whatever you want to call it, just google for electromigration

[MaxCast]

 

[WireNut]

Short with Cardas or better connectors.

[neobop]

Is there an inconsistency here? Audiofool wires and break-in seems to be an issue? 

From someone that appears rooted in science, I'm surprised you may think wire breaks in.

Dear Jeff K,
You miss the point entirely.  It doesn't matter whether cable break-in is an actual phenomena or not, and it certainly doesn't matter to Audiofool Enterprises.  People experience or believe in cable break-in, therefore there's a need to facilitate this and for only $79.95 they can put some real voltage through those cables. 
Of course that gets you the budget version with plastic Din connector and molded RCA plugs.  We have a new and improved audiofool version with Chinese WBT plugs and a metal DIN connector that looks like Cardas.  The wire connecting these looks like Nordost Valhalla, but of course looks can be deceiving.  The new and improved price is only $384.72.

Think of the pride of ownership when you show your audiofool friends the elegant and functional cable break-in device right behind your TV set.  What's that you say, it seems a little steep?  Well, if the ultimate sound of your cables isn't up to that level of equipment, we're coming out with an attractive intermediate version with metal plugs.  Target price is only $216.69.  Tell your friends.
Best regards,
neo

[Jeff K]

This is off topic. but if you still doubt breaking in or whatever you want to call it, just google for electromigration

I did, and it surely is an issue with integrated circuits.  Can you refer me to any non-anecdotal source where an audio cable measures differently after break-in or whatever you want to call it?

Thanks

[dimkasta]

I did, and it surely is an issue with integrated circuits.  Can you refer me to any non-anecdotal source where an audio cable measures differently after break-in or whatever you want to call it?

Thanks

It is not an issue with integrated circuits. It is an issue with metal conductors (more prominent in solder). It is just more pronounced in integrated circuits because of the higher current densities, smaller conductors and the fact that they fail because of it.

Another possible cause is the capacitance and the dissipation/quality factor of the dielectric.

Anyway, I do not pretend to have demystified or proven "breaking-in" or whatever we want to call it. And surely I have not seen any measurements that prove it (although it should be pretty straightforward to measure such changes).

I did not need scientific measurements to tell me which speakers are better. Similarly, I can hear the difference when I first connect a cable, and have it play for a week or so...
In most cases it is not subtle, and most certainly not psychological... It is easy to even tell the difference on my friend's system, without them telling me they had changed or resoldered a cable...