[nicoch]

at 800hz it's stretch of to mesh the tweeter , the horn is to small to go down well,  same problem
93db is really low for SET ,stamped frame...btw the price is onest !
Tannoy is another world not that cheap eminence coax.....still some problem too ,I read that the altec 604 with that blu big coax horn  have acceptable performance

[rebbi]

 Guys,
This is a free and open forum and everybody is entitled to post whatever they want. But I am always somewhat surprised when I see people  posting really strong opinions about a speaker they've never heard. It seems that there are certain design features that some folks fixate on to the extent that they are then willing to say that a particular design "cannot possibly sound good" because this driver is too big," or because "it is horn loaded," or because "it does [or doesn't] use a first order crossover,"  or "the driver must be a piece of junk because it has a stamped metal frame," or whatever…
I have been disappointed by speakers that I thought I would really like, and I have been very impressed by speakers  that didn't seem all that distinguished on paper.
Bottom line: you might be surprised, too, and you just have to listen to something and decide whether it's for you. You might be surprised, or you might not.
 For what it's worth, Clayton is definitely in the "it's a matter of physics and science" camp, at least from my conversations with him, so I can say with some confidence that he's aware of all the interesting issues that you are raising and if you get on the phone and talk to him, he could answer your questions.
As far as the efficiency of the speaker, goes,  it may be important to remember that there isn't any standardized way of reporting that. Sensitivity is usually averaged over a particular frequency range, and the way companies report this specification are all over the place. What I said in my review is that I think that the 93 dB rating of the M4 is extremely honest.  Trust me, the Audio Note Kits "Kit 1" does sound very open and wonderful with this speaker. Thanks.

[Guy 13]

Guys,
This is a free and open forum and everybody is entitled to post whatever they want. But I am always somewhat surprised when I see people  posting really strong opinions about a speaker they've never heard. It seems that there are certain design features that some folks fixate on to the extent that they are then willing to say that a particular design "cannot possibly sound good" because this driver is too big," or because "it is horn loaded," or because "it does [or doesn't] use a first order crossover,"  or "the driver must be a piece of junk because it has a stamped metal frame," or whatever…
I have been disappointed by speakers that I thought I would really like, and I have been very impressed by speakers  that didn't seem all that distinguished on paper.
Bottom line: you might be surprised, too, and you just have to listen to something and decide whether it's for you. You might be surprised, or you might not.
 For what it's worth, Clayton is definitely in the "it's a matter of physics and science" camp, at least for my conversations with him, so I can say with some confidence that he's aware of all the interesting issues that you are raising and come if you get on the phone and talk to him, could answer your questions.
As far as the efficiency of the speaker, goes,  it may be important to remember that there isn't any standardized way of reporting that. Sensitivity is usually averaged over a particular frequency range, and the way companies report this specification are all over the place. What I said in my review is that I think that the 93 dB rating of the M4 is extremely honest.  Trust me, the Audio Note Kits "Kit 1" does sound very open and wonderful with this speaker. Thanks.

I agree 100% with you Rebbi,
what it looks like and whatever the specs are is just a small part of the evaluation of a speakers.
Listening is the whole thing on how to judge a speakers performance
and regardless of what some think,
the sound of speakers is more or less a personal thing.

Guy 13

[Don_S]

Isn't it difficult to measure the sensitivity of OBs and panel design speakers using the conventional method?  The standard 1-Watt at 1-Meter does measure the true performance of speakers with a strong back wave. I know the SPL from panel speakers does not decay at the same rate as dynamic driver box speakers.

I measure sensitivity with my ears at my listening position. 

Addendum:  I forgot to mention that standard measurements are done in an anechoic chamber.  Kiss back waves bye-bye.

[mick wolfe]

Isn't it difficult to measure the sensitivity of OBs and panel design speakers using the conventional method?  The standard 1-Watt at 1-Meter does measure the true performance of speakers with a strong back wave. I know the SPL from panel speakers does not decay at the same rate as dynamic driver box speakers.

I measure sensitivity with my ears at my listening position. 

Good point. In my HT/casual set-up, my Salk SongTowers are an easy drive for a 40 watt tube. I think they are a very honest 88-89 db efficient. In the same set-up, my Spatial M2 Turbo's require noticeably less gain on my pre-amp's vol. control to achieve the same SPL's. ( according to my ear) From this I can only "assume" the Spatial's are pretty much in the 93-95db ballpark in efficiency. And as Rebbi says, despite what appears to be a conflict in design theory, actually listen to the speaker and decide.

[nicoch]

rebbi we are bulding speakers for 30years...prof and diy,  dont make a lesson to me ...you cannot change the law of physics ,period! coax is an old story
I ask you if the review is your work ?

[rebbi]

rebbi we are bulding speakers for 30years...prof and diy,  dont make a lesson to me ...you cannot change the law of physics ,period! coax is an old story
I ask you if the review is your work ?

Yes it's my review.

[nicoch]

that's mean that under 200 is lower then 93db.....

[rebbi]

that's mean that under 200 is lower then 93db.....

Yes. So?

[ricardojoa]

that's mean that under 200 is lower then 93db.....

And above 5khz. And your point is?

[Russell Dawkins]

Prior post deleted. On reflection, venting over the inane posts of nicoch seemed a waste of bandwidth.

[Dsaldivar]

Rebbi,
excellent review! Well written and very entertaining!
I was very close to place an order for a pair of M4's after I finish reading your review!
Dan
 
 

[nicoch]

Prior post deleted. On reflection, venting over the inane posts of nicoch seemed a waste of bandwidth.

I invite you to study a little bit how an horn work , at this circle  we are diy's and we know wery well...

[nicoch]

Rebbi,
excellent review! Well written and very entertaining!
I was very close to place an order for a pair of M4's after I finish reading your review!
Dan
 

this is a clear example how a review con pilot an user without had hear the things !
I'm on side of user not seller ! I can see that review as spam probably...

[Russell Dawkins]

I invite you to study a little bit how an horn work , at this circle  we are diy's and we know wery well...

Thanks for the invitation. I have been building speakers for 45 years now, so you're not talking to a neophyte, whether to me, the OP, or many others on this forum, so reign in your superiority.

[nicoch]

russell what I have post is not my comment but a really good expert , like Lynn Olson and altec forum.
you can take your bad word back....
How we can accept a review with only a pro and  no cons , clear cons....   

HI JLM I fast quote some for you ,in short is fisic ! 12/15" too big , horn too small . for search for altec 604
"They can work well, but not that well. The waveguides are always too small and this causes unrecoverable problems at the crossover
Lynn with a horn loaded co-axial you would be correct that you would create some strange diffraction patterns. And loading the driver that way also has its own issues with the straight edge over the cone driver. If the cone was used as the horn as Radian does then you could do something that conceivably would work but I don't see that done much. There is always some discontinuity where the cone meets the horn and the difference in angle between the cone and horn that will cause some type of diffraction. "
"The problem with a 15" coaxial is that the horn can't be big enough to go down to the woofer before it reaches cone breakup. At least that's the situation with the 604. A twelve might do it. I haven't heard them myself, but I understand in the world of Tannoy the 10" is the one that really carries it off. Put them with a VLF driver and you'd really have something, I think.
Tannoy has the design edge for horn size, I think, using the cone to load the treble, but I always thought there would have to be some intermodulation distortion being generated by that arrangement. I listened to a Tannoy red (or silver or black--I'm just going by the date) 15" long ago. It was my introduction to palpable realism for voice in speakers, but the guy had only one and I didn't buy it. I had a Jensen G610 back in the day. It had serious midrange coloration. I listened to Altec 604's for years; don't know how, I can't bear to have them on now. I'm keeping them only to try crossover tweeks on them eventually."

[nicoch]

JHL you are right and rebbi wrong , side wall effect : 10cm vs 100cm

 

[mcgsxr]

russell what I have post is not my comment but a really good expert , like Lynn Olson and altec forum.
you can take your bad word back....
How we can accept a review with only a pro and  no cons , clear cons....   

Nicoch you might seek to leverage a more friendly tone.  People could misunderstand your input as criticism. 

This is a forum where people share opinions and insights, and we welcome a variety of perspectives.  But we also expect civility.

I am glad that you are well read, and have played with audio for a long time.  Many of us here have too, and may have different opinions.

[nicoch]

Prior post deleted. On reflection, venting over the inane posts of nicoch seemed a waste of bandwidth.

HI mcgsxr can please comment  "inane posts" before jump on me ?! 
I write "at this circle  we are diy's and we know very well..." where you see I'm good??
remenber that there is a language barrier on my side  ,I learn a lot here I only try to re-share  not to sell speakers.....

[sebrof]

HI mcgsxr can please comment  "inane posts" before jump on me ?! 
I write "at this circle  we are diy's and we know very well..." where you see I'm good??
remenber that there is a language barrier on my side  ,I learn a lot here I only try to re-share  not to sell speakers.....

I'd summarize this way: Someone started a thread about speakers he likes.
You post, "beware 12/15" coax are an old story....cannot work well !"
Cannot work well for whom? They work well for the OP. They work well for others in this thread. They work well for people I know personally who heard them and like them. So what you said is not correct.

The fact that you said it one time is OK but not great. The fact that you keep visiting and continue to post, in a thread someone started about speakers he likes, is getting tiresome.

What is your intention is at this point?
Is it to educate the OP that he really shouldn't like the Spatials? Is it to warn others not to buy them? Is it to tell everyone you don't like large Coax drivers?

btw: mcgsxr did not quote you