Axiom M80 V3 with My Bryston System - 'I cannot believe that this happened'

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DaveNote

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Dave,

I understand perfectly well the point you are making, it would seem I am just much less doubtful of your ability to convey technical type of information than you are.
In your post you did not come across as someone who did not command any knowledge in the matter, on the contrary, the information was very well conveyed and your description of the product was very clear.
I had no reason to think about possibility that you may not have understood correctly what was communicated to you, and I still think that such possibility is very remote.
That is where our seeming disconnect is coming from.
Anyway, you are clearly irritated and you are blowing this out of proportions, even implying that I am accusing you of something and I got engaged in slurs?! Up till now this was an exchange of opinions, but now your comments have become indecent and insulting. I will no longer reply to any of your posts as it does not seem civilized exchange is possible.

Finally, we have found common ground: the desire not to have exchanges with one another! Something it seems you and others have had to do. I wonder why? Thank you for your promise not to reply to any of my posts. I am delighted, whenever possible, to reciprocate.

Dave

werd

He won't keep to that promise. He will follow you around and bug you. That I know. Or try and bug you....lol

Diamond Dog

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DaveNote :  If I might be so bold as interrupt in an attempt to re-direct this back to your original intent - that being a speaker review as I recall, are you doing the comparison between your new Axioms and the PMC's in the same room and at the lower volumes which ensures continued co-habitation with your better half ? I'm unclear on this as I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer by any stretch, a fact no AC member familiar with my cheap chicanery would dispute... :wink:

D.D.

Sasha

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Werd, by your immature comments you are proving nothing else but your inability to comprehend technical, engineering and scientific foundation of this hobby of yours.
In your lack of comprehension you resort to insults and personal attacks on anyone who wants to take nonsense out of it, and try to impose you religious like approach to the hobby on others as it is all that you are left with.
In essence you are a taliban of audiophile community.
When someone challenges your primitive taliban like views with reason, logic, facts, you become agitated. Stick to your promise to refrain from further interaction with me.

DaveNote

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DaveNote :  If I might be so bold as interrupt in an attempt to re-direct this back to your original intent - that being a speaker review as I recall, are you doing the comparison between your new Axioms and the PMC's in the same room and at the lower volumes which ensures continued co-habitation with your better half ? I'm unclear on this as I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer by any stretch, a fact no AC member familiar with my cheap chicanery would dispute... :wink:

D.D.

D.D., I'll be very glad to return to the original intent of this posting!

My review is based on a comparison between the M80s and MB2is played sequentially and playing the same tunes in the same room on the same equipment at the same volume. I believe I did say in the review that the speakers are not the same distances apart. The M80s are about 5 feet apart and the MB2is are 6 feet apart.

The comparisom was not the best A/B comparison in the sense that I could not simply use a dial or switch to compare one speaker to another. I had to listen to one, then set up the connections to listen to the other. But this was done quickly enough for me to make a reasonable comparison.

More importantly, the comparison was made easier by the fact that these two speakers have a very different kind of sound.

As a small addendum to the review, I can note that I'm still getting used to the M80 sound, which reveals so much I continue to hear things I've not heard before. One of them is background talk on  jazz cuts. Yes, I've always been able, unfortunately, to hear Keith Jarrett's "singing". But now every once in a while I hear new voices (Sasha, if he's still reading this thread will say, "Dave's always hearing voices even when the music stops"). At times I've found myself immediately thinking it's my wife calling from upstairs and I turn to reply.

But these new sounds also from time to time include faint rasping, which makes me think "distortion". Axiom suggested I bring the M80s a bit forward of the MB2is. I tried several distances, and settled for 2 inches forward. This has, noticeably, but not dramatically, improved the soundstage, while reducing what I heard as unwanted rasps. I'm now convinced are part of the recording.

Hope this helps.

Dave

Diamond Dog

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In essence you are a taliban of audiophile community.

My understanding is that the Taliban are not particularly big on music...not that a lot of what goes on here has much to do with music. Sometimes it has nothing to do with the reproduction of music, either.

Nice day for a walk...

D.D.



Diamond Dog

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The comparisom was not the best A/B comparison in the sense that I could not simply use a dial or switch to compare one speaker to another. I had to listen to one, then set up the connections to listen to the other. But this was done quickly enough for me to make a reasonable comparison.

More importantly, the comparison was made easier by the fact that these two speakers have a very different kind of sound.

Dave

Hi:  I was reading the comments you've made about the different speakers and it occured to me that one reason why you may find the Axioms better suited to your application might have something to do with the low-volume issue. Living in a condo, I know a bit about that and what I haven't learned on my own, my wife has helped to teach me...( actually she's an angel and far too good for my motley sort  :inlove: ).

Anyway, as I built my current system, a prerequisite was that it would have to sound good even at low volumes and I think speaker choice has a lot to do with the achievement of that goal. I've always thought that big speakers with their attendant big drivers and big cabinets don't really seem to give of their best without being given "a bit of Welly" as our British friends say. One of the things that really impresses me  about my current speakers is how good they sound in terms of detail, bass extension, etc. without having it flogged out of them. Your MB's have got pretty big drivers, etc. and maybe the Axioms are just better-suited to how you listen to music.

I'm just spit-balling here and really haven't spent enough time with either of your speakers (none at all with the Axioms ) to be considered any type of authority. Congrats on what appears to be a super buy on some gear which makes you happy !  :thumb:

D.D.

werd

Hi:  I was reading the comments you've made about the different speakers and it occured to me that one reason why you may find the Axioms better suited to your application might have something to do with the low-volume issue. Living in a condo, I know a bit about that and what I haven't learned on my own, my wife has helped to teach me...( actually she's an angel and far too good for my motley sort  :inlove: ).

Anyway, as I built my current system, a prerequisite was that it would have to sound good even at low volumes and I think speaker choice has a lot to do with the achievement of that goal. I've always thought that big speakers with their attendant big drivers and big cabinets don't really seem to give of their best without being given "a bit of Welly" as our British friends say. One of the things that really impresses me  about my current speakers is how good they sound in terms of detail, bass extension, etc. without having it flogged out of them. Your MB's have got pretty big drivers, etc. and maybe the Axioms are just better-suited to how you listen to music.

I'm just spit-balling here and really haven't spent enough time with either of your speakers (none at all with the Axioms ) to be considered any type of authority. Congrats on what appears to be a super buy on some gear which makes you happy !  :thumb:

D.D.

Yes, this is how i came to love my speakers. If i wasn't into late nite listening i would probably move into a speaker that uses dedicated bass drivers. The Acoustic zen use smaller drivers and a transmission line to form bass deeper bass. They sound good loud but you lose out on the bass impact. In lower volume those smaller 6.5 inch drives can really form out the instruments without trying to power a dedicated bass driver. They are tall and they fill the room with music at low volume.

The trick i have found with low volume is you have to listen for the instruments. Bass shy speakers i think are better here since you need to listen for the bass instruments. Bass shy speakers will form out bass instruments but they don't have the impact or low resonance. You dont really want that anyways when your better half and kids are upstairs sleeping.

Diamond Dog

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Yes, this is how i came to love my speakers. If i wasn't into late nite listening i would probably move into a speaker that uses dedicated bass drivers. The Acoustic zen use smaller drivers and a transmission line to form bass deeper bass. They sound good loud but you lose out on the bass impact. In lower volume those smaller 6.5 inch drives can really form out the instruments at low volume with out trying to power a dedicated bass driver. They are tall and they fill the room with music at low volume.

The trick i have found with low volume is you have to listen for the instruments. Bass shy speakers i think are better here since you need to listen for the bass instruments. Bass shy speakers will form out bass instruments but they don't have the impact or low resonance. You dont really want that anyways when your better half and kids are upstairs sleeping anyways.

I've heard those Adagios of yours when they had a dealer here - they were the speakers that sold me on the transmission line concept. They were gorgeous, too - in that red finish. Ended up buying transmission line speakers in the end but ugly ones ( FB1i's :lol:). Eventually got settled with fact.8's -sort of the middle ground, I guess.
Speakers like yours ( and mine ) don't move the kind of air that a speaker with big drivers and cabinet volume does so it's a different sound but not without it's charms. You end up being a different kind of listener ( and perhaps with more of our listening intact...If I had DaveNote's PMC's and amps in a secluded home, I'd be deaf as a post. It would be like going to see Rammstein every night!  :green: ).

D.D.

PS:  Nice avatar. He sleeps with the fishes...

DaveNote

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D.D. and werd, your experience listening to speakers that work well at low volumes is certainly beng borne out with me and the M80s. However, unlike werd, I don't have to listen for bass instruments playing the M80s at wife-sleeping volume levels. In fact, I've been finding that wife-listening levels work fine even when she's wide awake and I have the option of blasting away.

I'm still getting use to the different kind of sound which I understand is often typical of very linear speakers and ones with high resolution. It is very different than the relaxed and, by comparison, mellow sound of the MB2is. But unlike human relationships, familiarity with speakers doesn't breed contempt, but rather preference.

Yesterday, I tried my MB2is, again, and compared to the M80s with which I am growing much more familiar, I have to confess that the MB2is, although enjoyable, now seem a little veiled, and lacking in definition and in imaging.

In an important way, I am the poorest possible judge of audio in general and speakers in particular because I seldom hear live music. So for example, I can't say with any confidence that the fuller and fatter tenor sax on the MB2is or the leaner more defined tenor sax on the M80s is closer to a live tenor sax.

My suspiction, not knowledge, is that the M80 just might be closer to the mark. If I were to have this verfied, then what? It may be that I might not want to have these two different "sound flavours" from which to choose, but rather the more accurate, all the time.

Dave

werd

D.D. and werd, your experience listening to speakers that work well at low volumes is certainly beng borne out with me and the M80s.
Dave

I am not sure what that means?

werd

I've heard those Adagios of yours when they had a dealer here - they were the speakers that sold me on the transmission line concept. They were gorgeous, too - in that red finish. Ended up buying transmission line speakers in the end but ugly ones ( FB1i's :lol:). Eventually got settled with fact.8's -sort of the middle ground, I guess.
Speakers like yours ( and mine ) don't move the kind of air that a speaker with big drivers and cabinet volume does so it's a different sound but not without it's charms. You end up being a different kind of listener ( and perhaps with more of our listening intact...If I had DaveNote's PMC's and amps in a secluded home, I'd be deaf as a post. It would be like going to see Rammstein every night!  :green: ).

D.D.

PS:  Nice avatar. He sleeps with the fishes...

I am trying to get the local dealer to bring in a pair of those fact.8s. They look to me like they would play at all volumes with no compromise. I have been buggin him for months. 20 year warranty on them also reduces the price tag shock too.

DaveNote

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I am not sure what that means?

Perhaps I misread your earlier message, and D.D.'s  but I read them as your having experience with your Adagios at low volumes and D.D. having heard them, as well his own as a sort of middle ground.

Dave

milford3

DaveNote:  As I have posted before, the Axiom M80v3's need tons of break-in time.  With this debate not withstanding, time is on everybodys side.   As "FireGuy" has stated  eariler in this thread that the more expensive a speaker is, equates to a better "sound."  Nothing could be further from the truth.  I wish I had your experience with both speakers companys. :D

DaveNote

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DaveNote:  As I have posted before, the Axiom M80v3's need tons of break-in time.  With this debate not withstanding, time is on everybodys side.   As "FireGuy" has stated  eariler in this thread that the more expensive a speaker is, equates to a better "sound."  Nothing could be further from the truth.  I wish I had your experience with both speakers companys. :D

Milford, every day I listen to the M80s (and I listen all day long - the joy of retirement), they seem to get better and better. I think you're right about long break in, whatever that may be.

I haven't a hot clue whether that's because I'm just getting used to the different sound or the drivers are breaking in. Axiom I think believes it's mostly the psychoacoustic effect. In terms of enjoyment, what difference does it make? You might have a loved one who is by "standard measures" butt ugly, but if she's beautiful to you, she's beautiful. Period.

BTW, I found something new about the M80s just this aftenoon. I already know that these speakers are placement sensitive. Slight movement produces noticeable changes in the sound. But today, I changed the chair I used. I have been sitting with ear level slightly below the top tweeter. Now ear level is between the lower tweeter and the top midrange driver. And once more I hear a difference. Midrange is somewhat smoother, less hard edged. Bass is extended a bit, and I'm getting quite a bit more slam.

I've had seating height make a difference before, but usually it has involved greater heights, and without changes that are so great. I'm checking with Axiom about this because I'm not sure I'm not just dreaming it all. Could be. Dreaming is another retirement benefit.

Dave

bjski

Dave, you created such a buzz about Axiom M80v3 I am now considering it for my home theater. I'm currently using an
Onkyo 5508 preamp along with a Bryston 9BSST/2. I have been thinking of upgrading my front speakers. The M80's seem very efficient and at 4 ohms I'll get 200 watts out of the Bryston which should be enough.

Diamond Dog

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20 year warranty on them also reduces the price tag shock too.

No it doesn't!  :lol:

The new HL is a vast improvement over Osama Bin Pollutin'-the-ocean BTW.   :thumb:


Perhaps I misread your earlier message, and D.D.'s  but I read them as your having experience with your Adagios at low volumes and D.D. having heard them, as well his own as a sort of middle ground.

Dave

Actually I was referring to the appearance of the fact.8's coming in somewhere between the-ahem- purposeful look of the PMC i-Series and those super sexy Acoustic Zen Adagios.

So how long until someone comes along and starts a brawl about speaker break-in? I'm trying to plan out my
evening... :jester:

D.D.

DaveNote

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Dave, you created such a buzz about Axiom M80v3 I am now considering it for my home theater. I'm currently using an
Onkyo 5508 preamp along with a Bryston 9BSST/2. I have been thinking of upgrading my front speakers. The M80's seem very efficient and at 4 ohms I'll get 200 watts out of the Bryston which should be enough.

Hi bjski: At this very moment I'm listening to the M80s through my 7BSST2s via my Harman Kardon Pre-out, and I'm getting a darker soundstage and quite a bit more bass than using the amp section of the HK. Maybe your 9Bs would give them something extra, too.

I know nothing about home theatre, but your Bryston amps must make it terrific. I understand that a lot of home theatre fans look for a different kind of sound, and want to get not only surround, but heavy duty bass to catch every movie crash and boom. I know less about woofers than I do home theatre, but I did notice when I was researching the M80s that Axiom has a monster woofer that seems to have received a lot of praise. But I've also read that B&W has an excellent woofer in its higher price range.

At the risk of my being seen as a shill for the company, it seems to me that Axiom's speciality is home theatre. My HK, at 4 ohms, is suppose to produce 150 watts and it sounds very good. I can't imagine that your Bryston would not be even better. If you have any doubts, check the site.

Dave

DaveNote

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No it doesn't!  :lol:

The new HL is a vast improvement over Osama Bin Pollutin'-the-ocean BTW.   :thumb:


Actually I was referring to the appearance of the fact.8's coming in somewhere between the-ahem- purposeful look of the PMC i-Series and those super sexy Acoustic Zen Adagios.

So how long until someone comes along and starts a brawl about speaker break-in? I'm trying to plan out my
evening... :jester:

D.D.

D.D. I'm sorry I didn't get it about you and the speakers you described. I'm with you about the break in debate, and in fact all the other debates in audio that go around and around. I don't know why and can't explain so-called break in: technical? mental? illusion? Most of the manufacturers of the speakers I've had have recommended break in time, some of them saying that drivers have to be worked in. True or not, I can't say. All I know is that speakers sound better to me, for whatever reason, after listening to them for some time.

After my contretemps yesterday on this thread with one of the strong techies, I'd prefer to leave these disputes to others, especially the fundamentalists on each side of them that keep them going on and on and on. I'm too old, too tired, and too uninterested to try putting my hand in them again.

So, if I get notices that resignite the endless and boring break in debate, I, too, will move on to better things: music, staring into space, toe clipping...anything else.

Dave

Diamond Dog

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After my contretemps yesterday on this thread with one of the strong techies, I'd prefer to leave these disputes to others, especially the fundamentalists on each side of them that keep them going on and on and on. I'm too old, too tired, and too uninterested to try putting my hand in them again.

So, if I get notices that resignite the endless and boring break in debate, I, too, will move on to better things: music, staring into space, toe clipping...anything else.

Dave

T'would indeed be nice if the evangelists, the proselytizers and the junior debate team would just leave a tract in the mailbox and move on. As if...
 Unless, like say, for James, this is your bread and butter, hi-fi really is an adult ToyLand and there should be room in the sandbox for all of us. Sometimes I think there's something about "The Hobby" that just makes folks grumpy. Maybe younger people avoid hi-fi because they're afraid it'll turn them into a cranky, over-opinionated, under-socialized...ahhh never mind. I'm not getting mired in that morass.

I take great joy from music. I take great pride in having put togther a system which pleases me in that it allows me to take all the spiritual nourishment from music that it offers me. And the sucker's paid for.
With that said, I am content.

Hope it spreads.

D.D.