LS Center Channel Speaker Crossover

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hesster

LS Center Channel Speaker Crossover
« on: 11 Dec 2014, 04:42 pm »
In a HT setup, what should the LS-C be set at (large/small), and if small which I suspect, what is the ideal crossover adjustment? (80 or 100 Hz, etc?). Also, I find after installation of my new Emotiva surround processor, mono blocks, and multi channel  amp that I am not getting sufficient voice clarity.  This is not a volume thing which is easily tweak-able, but maybe need to adjust the "Q" in certain HZ ranges - what ranges are most associated with voice (like 1000Hz or 3000Hx, etc.
Appreciate any input.




Early B.

Re: LS Center Channel Speaker Crossover
« Reply #1 on: 11 Dec 2014, 05:38 pm »
Set the LS-C to "Large."

If you're not getting sufficient voice clarity, there's probably something wrong with the settings or your hookup. Double check your wiring. What kind of cable are you using on the LS-C? Is your system fully calibrated? Is the LS-C at ear level? Try unhooking all of the speakers except the LS-C. Does it still lack clarity?

rockdrummer

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Re: LS Center Channel Speaker Crossover
« Reply #2 on: 11 Dec 2014, 09:19 pm »
hesster, I like Early B's advice.  After unhooking all the speakers except the center, maybe plug the center cable into one of the front main LS speakers.  Would running a main front cable to the center help you eliminate the actual center speaker as a culprit?  I would think so.

I would think running so much equipment would result in some pretty clear dialogue.  Isn't most voice frequency ranges about 300 to 3000hz, with the exceptions going much lower?

Ben

hesster

Re: LS Center Channel Speaker Crossover
« Reply #3 on: 11 Dec 2014, 10:03 pm »
It is at ear level, and using a balanced cable feed from the processor to the Center channel amp, and relatively good speaker cables.  Really looking for the ideal x-over point (most setups use 80 or 100 hz), and what hz range the human voice covers.  Then I can tweak many parameters in the processor to get the desired results (db levels and Q factors associated with voice hz bandwidth).

SoCalWJS

Re: LS Center Channel Speaker Crossover
« Reply #4 on: 11 Dec 2014, 10:26 pm »
It is at ear level, and using a balanced cable feed from the processor to the Center channel amp, and relatively good speaker cables.  Really looking for the ideal x-over point (most setups use 80 or 100 hz), and what hz range the human voice covers.  Then I can tweak many parameters in the processor to get the desired results (db levels and Q factors associated with voice hz bandwidth).
I would set at small and a xover point of 80, then start measuring and experimenting.

I know nothing of your pre/pro. Does it automatically re-route all LFE to a subwoofer if you have one? If so, you're pretty free to experiment with running it full range. If it doesn't, I would be very careful trying to run the center channel as full range.

Make sure Phase is correct and the drivers are aimed directly at the primary listening position (I see it's at the right height, but make sure it isn't angled up or down). If you still have problems with dialog, you are running into cancellation at critical frequencies and you need to move things around or treat the room (assuming that there is nothing wrong with the LS-C)

kingdeezie

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Re: LS Center Channel Speaker Crossover
« Reply #5 on: 11 Dec 2014, 10:59 pm »
I am going to go out on a limb and say your dialogue issue is probably caused by room overloading. From the limited pictures that you have posted, you have absolutely no bass traps anywhere, and it looks like the center channel and the LS mains are right up against the wall.

Unless something is hooked up wrong, or not working as intended, I think that it could be an acoustics issue. In other words, not related to the crossover set by the HT equipment.


Early B.

Re: LS Center Channel Speaker Crossover
« Reply #6 on: 12 Dec 2014, 01:11 am »
It is at ear level, and using a balanced cable feed from the processor to the Center channel amp, and relatively good speaker cables.  Really looking for the ideal x-over point (most setups use 80 or 100 hz), and what hz range the human voice covers.  Then I can tweak many parameters in the processor to get the desired results (db levels and Q factors associated with voice hz bandwidth).

Set the center channel to LARGE and don't worry about an ideal crossover point. There's no reason to have such a substantial center channel, then choke it by cutting off the bass. Let it play the full signal. I have a monstrous DIY center channel similar to yours and that's what I do. Sounds phenomenal and I've never had a clarity issue.

Danny Richie

Re: LS Center Channel Speaker Crossover
« Reply #7 on: 12 Dec 2014, 04:32 pm »
If I were to pick a crossover point for it and a sub then it would have to be 45Hz to 55Hz.

The heart of the vocal and dialog is 300Hz to 500Hz.

This might help understand:



Any pics of the setup and placement?

hesster

Re: LS Center Channel Speaker Crossover
« Reply #8 on: 12 Dec 2014, 07:38 pm »
Thanks for the input everyone.  More detail on my system upgrades -  Built the LS-9's years ago, and the LSC a few years ago.  Was running "cheap" Behringer amps to power all of the 9.1 speakers out of a higher end Yamaha receiver.  I had Bi Amped the LS9's and the LSC.  Danny - you were spot on in needing to upgrade the amps to realize the real potential of the LS9's.  I now have new Emotiva stuff which is relatively cost effective.  I run the LS9's with a pair of XPR-1 1000W mono blocks, and the F/R surrounds and LSC with a XPA-5 Gen 2 200w/channel amp.  Just installed Emotiva's new XMC-1 processor which is one fine piece.  The Decker "Housewrecker" sub is still run with a Behringer 3000 1000w amp and I installed that in the basement to avoid the nasty fan noise.  I use all Emotiva balanced cables as interconnects, and power cords and cables are VH audio home made design.
Anyway, I am waiting on the Dirac" room correction from Emotiva, so for now I used a SPL meter and my ears to complete a initial set-up.  Admittedly, I know little about room correction or treatment - for now it is what it is. 
Getting back to the LSC, I was able to use the menu features of the processor to "boost it" a bit and it sounds a whole lot better.  Thanks Danny for the crossover and Hz range input, I will use this to tweak the setting.
On a closing note, this set-up friggin blew my mind it sounds so good.  The LS's are a totally different speaker with upgraded audio stuff driving them.  The spatial depth and clarity is freaky.  Even MPEGs are awesome, and Blu Ray HD is otherworldly!











Danny Richie

Re: LS Center Channel Speaker Crossover
« Reply #9 on: 12 Dec 2014, 07:54 pm »
Also, how many hours of play does the center channel have now?

hesster

Re: LS Center Channel Speaker Crossover
« Reply #10 on: 12 Dec 2014, 08:36 pm »
Oh  - years.  I used it with my old stuff right after I built it, so it certainly is "broken in".  Attached is the old set up.


bdp24

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Re: LS Center Channel Speaker Crossover
« Reply #11 on: 12 Dec 2014, 09:21 pm »
Coming into this world of subs and home theater has been an eye opener for me. I'm coming from the "High-End" (well la de freakin' da) segment of consumer electronics, where the principle of "garbage in, garbage out" is well established. The best a speaker can do is reproduce the signal it is fed, the best an amp can do is the same. System hierarchy dictates that you don't want your speakers to be better than your amps, and you don't want your amps to be better than your sources. If you don't observe that truth, your speakers will simply reveal the faults of your amps, your amps the faults of your sources. The right way to build a system is from the front (sources) to the back (speakers, and, really, the room), with, if anything, the quality descending as you move from front to back, not ascending. Mass market systems are always build inverse of that because, as beginners, we were led to believe that the speakers make the sound. The whole system is what we are really hearing, and that chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. Your old amps were "bottlenecking" your system---imagine what some really good tube amps would let it sound like!

hesster

Re: LS Center Channel Speaker Crossover
« Reply #12 on: 14 Dec 2014, 01:22 pm »
Well said bdp24

Hank

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Re: LS Center Channel Speaker Crossover
« Reply #13 on: 15 Dec 2014, 06:47 pm »
+1    If a beginner spends his max on superspeakers and has little left over for sources and amps, he/she will be disappointed in the sound coming out of the speakers and they'll be underappreciated.  Buy the best sources you can afford, then amps, then build Danny's lower priced speaker kits (they'll be 2 or 3 x better than commercial speakers).  Down the road, after best sources and amps and room treatments, THEN upgrade your speakers.

bdp24

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Re: LS Center Channel Speaker Crossover
« Reply #14 on: 16 Dec 2014, 03:13 pm »
The guiding principal of course is to have a balanced system, with all the equipment roughly equal in quality. When one starts on the upgrade path, it is better to start at the front end (assuming the room has already been addressed. As Art Carney would say..."Hello room"), for the reason stated above. You don't want to get a great pair of speakers with ribbon tweeters, for example, until you already have a great amp with which to drive them. The speakers are often blamed for the bad sound of a system, but it just could be that a high-transparency speaker is merely revealing the less-than-great sound of the amp (the "hard" sound of poor transistor electronics) or sources upstream of them. I see a lot of Home Theatre set-ups seriously out of balance, with fairly high-performance speakers and very high-performance subs being fed by mediocre receivers (a pretty compromised component in even the best examples, with often anemic power supplies) and CD/DVD players (most of them very compromised, in the name of the almighty price point. You can't make a great meal with poor ingredients!). The MOST overlooked component is the room; no system will sound any better than it's room will allow. End of speech! The really great thing is that excellent loudspeakers no longer have to be expensive, as all GR Research customers know, of course. That leaves more of the system budget for the front end and amps. It's great to see so many of you younger fellas hip to tubes and Class A amps, and a lot of you with no pre-amp at all. Not many turntables in the pics of your systems, though.

SoCalWJS

Re: LS Center Channel Speaker Crossover
« Reply #15 on: 16 Dec 2014, 04:46 pm »
Starting to get a bit off topic, but I gotta throw my 2 cents in here....... :green:

Which of the two following setups do you think will sound better (assuming everything else in the chain remains the same)(extreme example to make the point)

1)
    A pair of $20k speakers driven by $1k amp

2)
    A pair of $1k speakers driven by a $20k amp


(and yes, a balanced system is far more important)

Hank

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Re: LS Center Channel Speaker Crossover
« Reply #16 on: 16 Dec 2014, 05:55 pm »
1)

IMO, no reason to spend $20grand on speakers

In scenario 2), if the speakers are commercial (NOT DIY), they are going to  have really compromised components.

bdp24

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Re: LS Center Channel Speaker Crossover
« Reply #17 on: 17 Dec 2014, 11:57 am »
Starting to get a bit off topic, but I gotta throw my 2 cents in here....... :green:

Which of the two following setups do you think will sound better (assuming everything else in the chain remains the same)(extreme example to make the point)

1)
    A pair of $20k speakers driven by $1k amp

2)
    A pair of $1k speakers driven by a $20k amp


(and yes, a balanced system is far more important)

Example No.1 is just the kind of imbalance I was talking about (assuming price accurately reflects quality, a mighty big assumption). The correct answer is.....$10k speakers driven by $10k amp!

hesster

Re: LS Center Channel Speaker Crossover
« Reply #18 on: 17 Dec 2014, 01:59 pm »
  How true this statement is BPD24, I am humble enough to admit I am somewhat in this company - "I see a lot of Home Theatre set-ups seriously out of balance, with fairly high-performance speakers and very high-performance subs being fed by mediocre receivers (a pretty compromised component in even the best examples, with often anemic power supplies). The guiding principal of course is to have a balanced system, with all the equipment roughly equal in quality."
  The reality is, many of us ARE beginners, and THINK we have great sound, until we finally listen and learn from those with true experience in what makes for a good to fabulous system, and then move on to new equipment upgrades in a search for that goal.  Also, there are obviously many tastes in kinds of music, and the particular "sound" that the high fidelity hardware delivers at their price points.  For example, Tube Amps, Turntables/LPs vs Digital music, exotic cables/interconnects, etc.
  I would imagine many of us enjoy our Premium 5.1 HT channels and DVR everything for watching with the Spouse/Kids, and then make a play lists of our favorite MP3's in ITunes for easy playback.  Or, que up a LP, or pop in a 5.1/THX/Blu Ray concert for more fidelity. 
  In the interest of cost, we may think if we can save some $$ in a area, then we can still get desired results.  Given this, my example fits this well - build a killer pair of LS-9's and LSC to start in the making of a great system, cause why not if you can do it for ~$5K and a ton of labor.  BUT - then think that a higher end Yamaha receiver with almost 200w/channel or equivalent is going to make these speakers sound great, and realizing more is better add a bunch of cheap amps that advertise well and fill up the Receiver Pre-Outs with these.  Looks impressive, and sounds "good", but we don't know better.
  As I said, when I finally replaced all of this old hardware fed off of (5) 20w outlets to run it all and a gazillion cables adding noise with much better hardware to be in "balance" with the LS's did I realize I had gone down the wrong path.  The difference was so dramatic, I had to laugh at myself for wasting $$ on all of that stuff.  I realize there are additional factors I can explore such as speaker positioning and room treatments,  "The MOST overlooked component is the room; no system will sound any better than it's room will allow" - would appreciate tips used to improve here. An example here is with the LS9's and a big sub one can load up the room in a real hurry.
So, next I will hook up my Turntable to see what that sounds like, and upgrade my old cheapo Samsung Blu Ray to an OPPO or equivalent. Lastly, there is a lots to learn for some of us in pursuing HD music beyond the many MP3's we may have on our computers - like optimum settings in ITunes/Quick Time, HI Rez downloads, and the increasing availability of HD digital music.
.

bdp24

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Re: LS Center Channel Speaker Crossover
« Reply #19 on: 18 Dec 2014, 06:00 am »
Bitchin' car! Putting some BF Goodrich G-Force tires on it's wheels is like adding room treatments; it's where the rubber meets the road (your room), to use a mixed metaphor. Guys with families have to compromise, as moving speakers a third of the way into the room (4 feet from the side walls and 6 feet from the front in a 12 X 18 foot room) is not practical in a non-dedicated space. But a rug on the floor is absolutely mandatory, and I see a lot of rooms with bare wood or, much worse, tile floors. Book cases or racks of CD's/DVD's/LP's is a cheap and functional way to break up first-reflections on the speaker's side walls, whereas absorbers or diffractors on those walls would not be approved by "the boss" :-). The good news is that, as you get older, three things come together. The kids grow up and move out (hopefully!), your years of listening have made you more aware of how to get the sound that makes you happy, and you have more time for listening. And whereas the CD boom of the 90's was a very disheartening time for aging audiophiles (what with the pretty nasty sound of early digital), the future looks very bright for those young enough to be here as it unfolds. Hi-Rez downloads are a fantastic development, side-stepping the predicament of being at the mercy of the big record companies with their low standards of good sound and disregard for the artists who provide them with their "product". Almost none of them ever sees a dime in royalties, scraping by in near poverty by playing low paying gigs. That is, when the club owner doesn't screw them out of that. Hopefully downloads will result in the artists seeing more of the money their music generates. Damn, here I am back up on my soapbox again!