[SteveRB]

Hello,

This seems like decent thread for me to go fishing in for some cheap car audio advice/experience.

I recently picked up an older vehicle and I am looking to update the sound system. However, I don't want to mess with the look of the dash, and I want to maintain the original radio operation.

My plan was to upgrade the speakers and run a second set of speaker wires to an external amp. I would then use an iPod or BlueTooth device as the new source and go direct into the amp. The first issue I see is that separate car amps seem to have a control wire to designed to go to the main stereo deck. The control wire is for switching the power on and off to avoid drain on the car battery... So, I guess my first question for anyone with experience is: if there is no music into the amp does it still draw off the battery? If I needed to, I could insert a simple in-line on/off switch... but would prefer not to.

Anyone with a little experience is welcome to chime in. I am still figuring how to achieve my goals here.

[jarcher]

Many car stereos - factory OEMs included - have RCAs out for an external amp.  That's what you should use to hook up an external amp, and from that amp to the speakers.  Using an i-device into a powerful car amp is to invite inconvenience and perhaps even disaster.  One light inadvertent flick of the idevice and your at full power.  Otherwise having an external amp is a good sound quality boost for a car audio system.

Unless you have some really pretty slick OEM in dash unit, even a modest aftermarket head unit replacement may make more sense as it will have not only the RCA out, but also a connector for your idevice or USB flash drive (or at least a analog mini plug).  USB is nice because it recharges as well.

Which head unit? They all gotten so cheap now, and many will sound much the same.  Going back a few years I found I liked the sound of the Pioneers the best as most natural / musical.  Now that Pioneer is exiting consumer audio you may even be able to get ever better deals.

I had a thing for the Alpine brand and ended up with an Alpine head unit and R series component (i.e. separate tweeter units and mid / bass).  That was probably a mistake.  VERY bright / HI-FI sounding.  Good I guess if your 20 and want ear piercing highs and lows. 

Unless you've installed car audios before, or are very patient and with a lot of time on your hands, I'd recommend a qualified car audio only installer.  Speakers / head unit installs are not too bad, if you use existing wiring. But placing an external amp and running the cables around the car carefully so it doesn't look like crap and mess up your carpeting is harder than it sounds.  A car audio only place w/ strong online reviews or personal referral is the best first start.

Probably all the things you don't want to hear - but just trying to avoid you some hassles from personal experience.  Best of luck!

[SteveRB]

Thanks for the heads up. The vehicle is an 1986 F150 pick up. It is super clean and I will likely be going for Collector status in the future. So replacing the stock deck is not an option. But everything you're telling me is that the 'work-around' I proposed is not an option either.

Back up plan I suppose is to install a new head unit perhaps in a new location... glove box or under the seat would work. Then use bluetooth control...

[mix4fix]

Unless you've installed car audios before, or are very patient and with a lot of time on your hands, I'd recommend a qualified car audio only installer.  Speakers / head unit installs are not too bad, if you use existing wiring. But placing an external amp and running the cables around the car carefully so it doesn't look like crap and mess up your carpeting is harder than it sounds.  A car audio only place w/ strong online reviews or personal referral is the best first start.

Nowadays, cars are so complicated that you HAVE to take it to someone who knows what they are doing. You remove the radio and certain circuits don't work.

[SteveRB]

Nowadays, cars are so complicated that you HAVE to take it to someone who knows what they are doing. You remove the radio and certain circuits don't work.

I have the wiring diagrams, and as I mentioned it is an '86 which is pretty straightforward. There are only two circuits: always on and switched.

The external amp will require a specific power feed (fused) off the battery (which is huge).
 

[jarcher]

Thanks for the heads up. The vehicle is an 1986 F150 pick up. It is super clean and I will likely be going for Collector status in the future. So replacing the stock deck is not an option. But everything you're telling me is that the 'work-around' I proposed is not an option either.

Back up plan I suppose is to install a new head unit perhaps in a new location... glove box or under the seat would work. Then use bluetooth control...

If it's for your enjoyment - I'd go aftermarket head unit for now, and say in 10 years when it starts catching up to the 50-60's trucks in collector value, then put the stock head unit back in.  This way you even limit wear & tear operationally and cosmetically on the stock unit.  Sounds crazy, but a friend of mine sold NOS shoulder belts for a 70's pick up truck for $700 a pair on ebay not so long back. 

An '86 F150 should be a breeze to remove and put back head units.  Those things have so much breathing space everywhere it is a breath of fresh air vs hyper cramped modern vehicles.  And you could probably even find space for a modern compact amp to go somewhere near under the dash.  Heck - with the real estate you've got, perhaps even a full size one.Alpine has super compact units - with the caveat about Alpine house sound. 

So now knowing your vehicle, a DIY may not be that out of the question, so long as you use stock wiring and keep everything behind the dash.  You can still go to an installer, put pick carefully.  The clowns at Best Buy turned out to be a two day job as I walked them through it (and I'm hardly an expert), and at the end of the day my door panel is now loose and the speaker within it rattles.  Should have actually spent $ for the install and gone to a reputable dedicated car audio installer.  Penny wise, dollar foolish. 

[SteveRB]

If it's for your enjoyment - I'd go aftermarket head unit for now, and say in 10 years when it starts catching up to the 50-60's trucks in collector value, then put the stock head unit back in.

Insuring the truck as a 'Collector' saves about $1000 per year on insurance... I also love the look of the old truck dash. I'd hate to have a ton of blinking lights in the cab.

You are right about the space though. I'll go don to the specialty shop this weekend and see what they've got as far as compact and remote units. I wouldn't go Best Buy for any reason really...

Thanks again.

[jarcher]

Insuring the truck as a 'Collector' saves about $1000 per year on insurance... I also love the look of the old truck dash. I'd hate to have a ton of blinking lights in the cab.

You are right about the space though. I'll go don to the specialty shop this weekend and see what they've got as far as compact and remote units. I wouldn't go Best Buy for any reason really...

Thanks again.

The relatively better cosmetics (less light show effect), clearer controls along with strong brand imprinting on a former teenage mind is what had me head for Alpine.  But have to admit that Pioneer and JVC probably sound better for older and more mature ears. 

I seem to recall long ago some companies making head units that looked more "retro" - or else covers over existing head units.  But your idea of hiding the unit somewhere behind dash or under seat and controlling via remote / bluetooth and leaving the stock unit in place but disconnected may make more sense.  Best of luck. 

[jarcher]

A self correction : Pioneer is exiting the home AV market, not car, which is 70% of their current revenue!  Big slip for me. 

If it were me I'd get one of their class AB mosfet multichannel amps.  I.e. the "GM" series.  Many car amps are or have moved to class D.  Don't know if I trust car audio co's to get class D amps right.  Pioneer has a super compact "power pack" amps meant to work and be powered off their head units, but it's class D, and that + Alpine brightness is probably recipe for disaster. 

I'd get the Pioneer GM-A3602 amp if I was going to run just two speakers in stock location. Pretty compact. 

If 4 speakers, then the GM-A4604 or GM-A6604, though I don't think you really get noticeably more usable power with the 66 vs the 46. 

All of those are available online for around or less than $100.  The JVCs are essentially the same design and cost and would be another good alternative if your chosen installer doesn't do Pioneer. 

[SteveRB]

All of those are available online for around or less than $100.  The JVCs are essentially the same design and cost and would be another good alternative if your chosen installer doesn't do Pioneer.

Now THAT'S cheap and cheerful.

[mix4fix]

I have the wiring diagrams, and as I mentioned it is an '86 which is pretty straightforward. There are only two circuits: always on and switched.

The external amp will require a specific power feed (fused) off the battery (which is huge).

I thought you had a newer car.

DON"T CUT YOUR FACTORY HARNESS!!!!

USE A RADIO HARNESS!!

[JRace]

My plan was to upgrade the speakers and run a second set of speaker wires to an external amp. I would then use an iPod or BlueTooth device as the new source and go direct into the amp. The first issue I see is that separate car amps seem to have a control wire to designed to go to the main stereo deck. The control wire is for switching the power on and off to avoid drain on the car battery... So, I guess my first question for anyone with experience is: if there is no music into the amp does it still draw off the battery? If I needed to, I could insert a simple in-line on/off switch... but would prefer not to.

Anyone with a little experience is welcome to chime in. I am still figuring how to achieve my goals here.

Yes you can do that, and the only issues would be the 'remote turn on'.
Aftermarket head units have a wire that will send a 12v signal to the amp telling it to be on. When you turn the head unit off the amp shuts off.
You can use a line from the battery and put a switch on it if need be as the amp will draw some power even with no music signal. It could take a few days but it may drain the battery.

Then you run an 8gauge wire from the battery, this MUST be fused no further than 18" from the battery.
This fuse will blow in the case of a short, without it the wire could heat up and catch fire....

You must also run an 8gauge ground wire from the amp to the frame of the truck, keep this as short as possible.
Then run an RCA-Mini plug cable from the amp top the iPods headhone output, and speaker wires from the speakers to the amp (do not leave the wires connected to the original head unit). Make sure the iPods volume is low before hitting play.

[HsvHeelFan]

Crutchfield used to be good about having detailed information on what you needed to do to put audio in whatever you're driving.  I haven't dealt with them in about 5 years.

If not, go to a reputable installer in your area.  Ask around.  Someone will know who does good work in your area.

I had a Ford Taurus that had an Alpine head unit, 6 disk changer in the console and amps with an MTX sub system in the trunk and Polk speakers in all of the standard speaker spots.    Much better sound than stock, but still "car" audio.

HsvHeelFan

[Johnny2Bad]

I've measured quite a few factory decks; they are not as bad as most people assume. Ford OEM decks generally test well for freq response etc. Broadly speaking, a factory deck will have superior radio circuitry than aftermaret decks costing less than about $200 and in many cases more expensive units.

You should build your system with a Line Out Converter (LOC) which should be transformer-coupled from the deck's speaker out to an aftermarket power amp. Because the transformers won't pass DC, it eliminates many potential hum issues. About $40 for a decent quality unit to $150 for Jensen Transformers, which are High Quality Audio grade.

You can add a switch to interface with a phone/iPod/etc. Try to access the line level output rather than the headphone jack. Switch can go after the LOC but direct from your portable. You will probably need a volume control after the LOC and before the switch as LOC's typically boost voltage. Some LOC's have adjustable gain. The idea is to have similar line-level voltage so that either the factory deck or your portable device are similar in level when switching from one to the other.

Then you go with aftermarket power amps. You have lots of options, and some have built-in LOC's (but won't be useful if you still want to include a portable). Since you want to maintain the collectable aspects of the truck, get best-quality-you-can-afford speakers and use the factory locations / size constraints.

"Shakers" mounted under the seats can mitigate the need for a sub. The car is an ideal environment for them.

If you end up playing with electronic crossovers (EXOR) or bass enhancers, go with Audio Control brand units. Don't consider any other brand. Often available on eBay at decent discounts.

The reason I mention electronic XOR's is it allows you to build a system with drivers normally used in home audio. Better quality at lower prices than speakers aimed and packaged for car audio. You don't really want to play with conventional crossovers; it's a complex route to go. Either use the EXOR or buy a complete speaker system designed for car audio and including any necessary XOR.

That's plenty to think about.

[Johnny2Bad]

When you look for a power amp, don't be afraid to consider refurb units. Lots of people like Polk car speakers for budget builds in Factory sizes / locations; I prefer Boston.

[jlawson1977]

Factory head units do alter the signal, de-emphasizing the bass as the volume goes up.  This is by design to relieve the OEM speakers from becoming toast as they can't produce good bass at volume.  Aftermarket amps and speakers usually don 't sound as good as a result.  There are interface devices available from Crutchfield, or any reputable car audio dealer, that restores the signal to the correct response and provides line level RCA outs to feed your amps.  Here is a link to Crutchfields items http://www.crutchfield.com/S-cZOgOIHlAjr/g_318850/Factory-System-Integration.html . These devices work very well.  They can only correct the signal; they cannot improve the frequency range of the factory head unit, many of which have very limited frequency response.  But if your OEM head unit isn't too bad, then you should enjoy some very good sounds.  I used a JL Audio unit years ago on a Nissan Murano.  Couldn't change the head unit out due to navigation and features, so this method worked quite well.  And don't cut any wires!  There are plenty of pre-made wiring adapters to ease the installation.

And if you want really good sound that is affordable, look into old school American amps like Rockford, Precision Power, etc.  Many can be had for a song and still sound great.  I'm a big fan of the old Precision Power Art or Power series.  Heres my DIY install I did in my Colorado.  Amps were recapped and given a clean bill of health before this install.  Still going strong after 20+ years of ownership !