Best sub for Magnepan 1.7s?

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NIGHTFALL1970

Best sub for Magnepan 1.7s?
« on: 23 Jul 2014, 10:15 am »
I am going crazy trying to decide between a Rythmik F12G with paper driver or a REL T-9 for my 1.7s.  Anyone compare these two with Maggies?

geowak

Re: Best sub for Magnepan 1.7s?
« Reply #1 on: 23 Jul 2014, 02:29 pm »
I have been trying to decide on these or other subs as well. To match with MMGs and in another system, Vandersteen speakers. Rythmik Audio (Brian) stated to me containers for that sub are not available till mid Aug.

NIGHTFALL1970

Re: Best sub for Magnepan 1.7s?
« Reply #2 on: 23 Jul 2014, 03:53 pm »
I called Rythmik yesterday and someone told me that they would have to get a driver from GR Research that would take a week.  He did not mention anything about the enclosure.  On the website it says that they are backordered until middle of August. :scratch:

jarcher

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Re: Best sub for Magnepan 1.7s?
« Reply #3 on: 23 Jul 2014, 07:09 pm »
Have not demoed Rythmic, but I happily use a REL T9 with my 1.7, and two of the local Magnepan dealers also pair 1.7's with T-7's or T-9's.  The now discontinued R series is even tighter - Music Direct is closing out a white R-218 @ $1200, which frankly would be the very best choice.  REL is now bringing in the much more expensive "S" series, so R's have to go.  I'll bet if you called MD you could even get the price knocked down from $1200. 

Otherwise soon will be demoing subs from MJ Acoustics, who are made up of ex-REL guys when REL was sold to Sumiko (?).  They essentially are based on the same principal of compact fast sealed compact subs w/ speaker level speakon connectors. Enclosures are not as glossy slick modern as REL, but pricing is better.  Now that REL "R"s will be no more, all but the TOTL RELs will have passive radiators, which is good for added LF extension, but somehow all / only one good driver sealed designs still seem better to me for music.  They do have some ported subs for HT use, but one driver sealed is primarily what MJ Acoustics does now. 

Will report back when I demo.  But for the here and now, I'd snap up that REL R-218 or get a T7 or T9 depending on room size and wants for low end extension.

P.s. For an MMG the REL T5 would be ideal.  I own one of those as well (along w/ a T Zero for office system - zero probably not enough for a medium sized room). 

geowak

Re: Best sub for Magnepan 1.7s?
« Reply #4 on: 23 Jul 2014, 10:26 pm »
Have not demoed Rythmic, but I happily use a REL T9 with my 1.7, and two of the local Magnepan dealers also pair 1.7's with T-7's or T-9's.  The now discontinued R series is even tighter - Music Direct is closing out a white R-218 @ $1200, which frankly would be the very best choice.  REL is now bringing in the much more expensive "S" series, so R's have to go.  I'll bet if you called MD you could even get the price knocked down from $1200. 

Otherwise soon will be demoing subs from MJ Acoustics, who are made up of ex-REL guys when REL was sold to Sumiko (?).  They essentially are based on the same principal of compact fast sealed compact subs w/ speaker level speakon connectors. Enclosures are not as glossy slick modern as REL, but pricing is better.  Now that REL "R"s will be no more, all but the TOTL RELs will have passive radiators, which is good for added LF extension, but somehow all / only one good driver sealed designs still seem better to me for music.  They do have some ported subs for HT use, but one driver sealed is primarily what MJ Acoustics does now. 

Will report back when I demo.  But for the here and now, I'd snap up that REL R-218 or get a T7 or T9 depending on room size and wants for low end extension.

P.s. For an MMG the REL T5 would be ideal.  I own one of those as well (along w/ a T Zero for office system - zero probably not enough for a medium sized room).

Jarcher,
Just wonderin if you have had alot of audio time with the REL subs. Since I have not heard many talk about the different models REL they have heard, please share more info. Is the S series much better that the T series? Are they really tight and tuneful? I really wonder how they fare when compared to the Rythmik subs like the F12 or F12G. Why do you think the T5 would mate well with the MMGs?

Freo-1

Re: Best sub for Magnepan 1.7s?
« Reply #5 on: 23 Jul 2014, 10:36 pm »
Here is my recommendation for subwoofer(s)

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/svs-sb13-ultra-subwoofer
http://www.digitaltrends.com/subwoofer-reviews/svs-sb13-ultra-review/#!bkK8fX

IMHO, this is perhaps the best buy in high end audio at a reasonable price point. I have used this with 1.7's and it is able to integrate quite well.

bladesmith

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Re: Best sub for Magnepan 1.7s?
« Reply #6 on: 23 Jul 2014, 11:09 pm »
Wouldn't an OB sub work well. With Maggies. (?)



http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=127533.msg1345891#new

jarcher

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Re: Best sub for Magnepan 1.7s?
« Reply #7 on: 24 Jul 2014, 01:06 am »
Jarcher,
Just wonderin if you have had alot of audio time with the REL subs. Since I have not heard many talk about the different models REL they have heard, please share more info. Is the S series much better that the T series? Are they really tight and tuneful? I really wonder how they fare when compared to the Rythmik subs like the F12 or F12G. Why do you think the T5 would mate well with the MMGs?

REL currently has three lines : the "t" series, the new "s" series and the Gibraltar TOTL subs.  The "s" replaced the "r" that presumably was too close in price and cone size to the "t" series. 

T-Zero : 6.5" ; 100W ; $500
T-5 : 8" ; 125W ; $700
T-7 : 8" active / 10" passive ; 200W ; $1K
T-9 : 10" active / 10" passive ; 300W : $1.2K

REL R-218 (discontinued) : 10" active ; 250W : $1.4K (now $1.2K)

The "S" series are $1,500, $2K, and $2.5K respectively. They start @ 10/10/250W and go to 12/12/550W. The sport a newer Class D amp + some tweaks to the cone design and optional wireless, along with a slightly spiffier cabinet (which presumably is improved over the T as well).  Maybe some crossover magic as well. The active driver is now forward firing and passive down (which is the opposite of the T series). You may note a touch of cynicism - not sure this series represents a substantial step up from the "t" series at the asking price.  Seems more marketing driven.

The "G" are the TOTL and all sealed (10 or 12) with massive cabinets, amps and price tag ($3500 & $4500) though that pricing is on par in the "flagship" class for competitors Velodyne and JL Audio, though those may have more bells and whistles. 

For a 1.7 or 3.7 magnepan, to me the "sweet spot" is the discontinued R-218 for music.  All sealed, good cone size, sufficient power, not super expensive. 

For an MMG I'd say the T-5 ; primarily because MMG's are designed for smaller to mid-size room and you're not going to pair a $600 speaker w/ a sub much above that pricing. 

I've had 3 different REL subs, the T-1, the T-5 and the T-Zero for 3 different systems (basement HT / AV, living room, and office respectively).  The T-1 and T-5 I've had for about a year and a half.  The T-Zero for about 9 months. 

The T-1 I recently replaced with a T-9 directly via REL because it had developed some interior bracing rattle at high volume / low frequency.  I paid the difference in price between the two & the shipping, which was a fair though not awesome deal (they basically sold me a T-9 at dealer cost).  I didn't want to have a broken or fixed sub and have to sell it used at a loss if I was honest and disclosed the fact. I've only come across one mention of a similar problem online, so don't want to disparage the REL T-1 (and similar T-2) because it's possible that mine was a more isolated incident.  All I know is that the T-9 is very similar to the previous T-1 in that basically only the cabinet of the T-9 is different (and presumably better). 

The T-1, and now the T-9 that I've had for a few days and am still breaking-in, I've used with the 1.7s.  The T-9 is sounding a bit tighter & more extended vs the T-1, but I'm still breaking it in.  They both integrate well, meaning tonally and speed-wise, giving me primarily that 30-40HZ range I want.  Their output frankly is limited below 30khz despite whatever their specs may say.  But what they do do, they do well, which is tight tuneful unobtrusive bass for music.  It's not an awesome sub for HT because of that lack of super LF bass - for which you probably need a ported sub anyway (or a massive & expensive TOTL big cone sealed sub).  I have dual cheapo 12" Velodynes for HT for that reason. 

The T-5 I've been using w/ Totem Arros, which are very fast 4" mid / bass cone based speakers. About as fast as you get in a conventional cone speaker vs planar.  Again they keep up, don't stick out, and have more than sufficient extension and volume for a medium sized room.  I have also taken them to a friend's to try w/ MMG's in a medium size room, and they worked well. 

The T-Zero I used with limited LF desktop monitors.  To blend with these the T-Zero needs to crossover more around 80HZ, and the small 6.5" driver is capable of doing that precisely.  And it fits unobtrusively below my desk.  An 8" nor much less a 10" would not work well for that purpose. 

So that's my long run through the REL range + my personal history.  The short answer is "yes - they are tight and tuneful - even the ones with a passive radiator - but the R218 which is 10" and all sealed would be for me the one to have w/ the 1.7's".  I don't have any experience w/ Rythmik subs, so can't comment.  The T-5 works well w/ MMG for the reasons described above (speed & room / price match w/ MMG). 

Lastly, I have heard briefly at an audio show the SVS SB13 though mostly in a HT demo.  I would certainly buy it at $1600 vs the REL G series for home theater at a fraction of the cost.  My concern would be that the cone is a bit too big and insufficiently rigid for adequate speed w/ Maggies for music.  But without having been able to do that particular demo, this would just be speculative on my part.  Ideally I'd want both a REL T or R for music (or perhaps even two), and an SVS SB13 for HT.  If / when I get more deeply into HT, then the cheapo entry level Velodynes will go on Craigslist and be replaced by an SVS SB13 - or God forbid TWO - for HT. 

As previously mentioned an alternative to REL is MJ Acoustics.  Basically many of their models are spec wise similar to the vaunted REL "R" series, but at lower cost.  Those deep piano gloss finishes of REL presumably aren't cheap, but on the other hand don't do anything to make them sound better.  And in a darkened room or hidden behind something even less materially important.  All of which is why MJA is on my watch list. 

And now I've rambled too long....hope the above helps!

NIGHTFALL1970

Re: Best sub for Magnepan 1.7s?
« Reply #8 on: 24 Jul 2014, 01:27 am »
Thank you all for the info!
 :D

edn4x4

Re: Best sub for Magnepan 1.7s?
« Reply #9 on: 24 Jul 2014, 02:37 am »
I had the same "problem"a few months back and went with the Rythmik F12 (no G) with my 1.7s and could't be happier.  I run the  xover set around 50 or so.  I bought only one for now and have it right between the 1.7s and on the same plane facing me.  My room is 14x13x8 and it in no way overpowers the room at all.  I run an AVA Fet Valve CF / Fet Valve 400R so with the PRE I have two outputs one set for the amp and one set for the sub - nice Frank!  So hookup for me was no problem at all.

NIGHTFALL1970

Re: Best sub for Magnepan 1.7s?
« Reply #10 on: 24 Jul 2014, 10:32 am »
edn4x4,
You have a similar system to mine.  Only difference is that my preamp is the Fet Valve Hybrid.  I have not had the money to upgrade to the "cf" version yet.  Is the upgrade worth it?
Right now I am leaning toward a Rythmik F12G, but I am not sure yet.

mresseguie

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Re: Best sub for Magnepan 1.7s?
« Reply #11 on: 24 Jul 2014, 03:12 pm »
Hello, Nightfall.

I can certainly empathize with you over your search for a suitable sub. If your time schedule allows you to wait another month,  I will post my impressions/reactions soon after I get my hands on my new sub. While I do not own Maggies, I have ordered a 12G (which hopefully will arrive in one month). Once I get it, I will hook it up to my main system and my HT system after that to see how it performs.  I currently own an 'okay' sub (PSB 300) that is not musical IMO. My son will happily receive the PSB sub when he moves into his new apartment in September.

Good luck with your search!

Michael

geowak

Re: Best sub for Magnepan 1.7s?
« Reply #12 on: 24 Jul 2014, 06:15 pm »
REL currently has three lines : the "t" series, the new "s" series and the Gibraltar TOTL subs.  The "s" replaced the "r" that presumably was too close in price and cone size to the "t" series. 

T-Zero : 6.5" ; 100W ; $500
T-5 : 8" ; 125W ; $700
T-7 : 8" active / 10" passive ; 200W ; $1K
T-9 : 10" active / 10" passive ; 300W : $1.2K

REL R-218 (discontinued) : 10" active ; 250W : $1.4K (now $1.2K)

The "S" series are $1,500, $2K, and $2.5K respectively. They start @ 10/10/250W and go to 12/12/550W. The sport a newer Class D amp + some tweaks to the cone design and optional wireless, along with a slightly spiffier cabinet (which presumably is improved over the T as well).  Maybe some crossover magic as well. The active driver is now forward firing and passive down (which is the opposite of the T series). You may note a touch of cynicism - not sure this series represents a substantial step up from the "t" series at the asking price.  Seems more marketing driven.

The "G" are the TOTL and all sealed (10 or 12) with massive cabinets, amps and price tag ($3500 & $4500) though that pricing is on par in the "flagship" class for competitors Velodyne and JL Audio, though those may have more bells and whistles. 

For a 1.7 or 3.7 magnepan, to me the "sweet spot" is the discontinued R-218 for music.  All sealed, good cone size, sufficient power, not super expensive. 

For an MMG I'd say the T-5 ; primarily because MMG's are designed for smaller to mid-size room and you're not going to pair a $600 speaker w/ a sub much above that pricing. 

I've had 3 different REL subs, the T-1, the T-5 and the T-Zero for 3 different systems (basement HT / AV, living room, and office respectively).  The T-1 and T-5 I've had for about a year and a half.  The T-Zero for about 9 months. 

The T-1 I recently replaced with a T-9 directly via REL because it had developed some interior bracing rattle at high volume / low frequency.  I paid the difference in price between the two & the shipping, which was a fair though not awesome deal (they basically sold me a T-9 at dealer cost).  I didn't want to have a broken or fixed sub and have to sell it used at a loss if I was honest and disclosed the fact. I've only come across one mention of a similar problem online, so don't want to disparage the REL T-1 (and similar T-2) because it's possible that mine was a more isolated incident.  All I know is that the T-9 is very similar to the previous T-1 in that basically only the cabinet of the T-9 is different (and presumably better). 

The T-1, and now the T-9 that I've had for a few days and am still breaking-in, I've used with the 1.7s.  The T-9 is sounding a bit tighter & more extended vs the T-1, but I'm still breaking it in.  They both integrate well, meaning tonally and speed-wise, giving me primarily that 30-40HZ range I want.  Their output frankly is limited below 30khz despite whatever their specs may say.  But what they do do, they do well, which is tight tuneful unobtrusive bass for music.  It's not an awesome sub for HT because of that lack of super LF bass - for which you probably need a ported sub anyway (or a massive & expensive TOTL big cone sealed sub).  I have dual cheapo 12" Velodynes for HT for that reason. 

The T-5 I've been using w/ Totem Arros, which are very fast 4" mid / bass cone based speakers. About as fast as you get in a conventional cone speaker vs planar.  Again they keep up, don't stick out, and have more than sufficient extension and volume for a medium sized room.  I have also taken them to a friend's to try w/ MMG's in a medium size room, and they worked well. 

The T-Zero I used with limited LF desktop monitors.  To blend with these the T-Zero needs to crossover more around 80HZ, and the small 6.5" driver is capable of doing that precisely.  And it fits unobtrusively below my desk.  An 8" nor much less a 10" would not work well for that purpose. 

So that's my long run through the REL range + my personal history.  The short answer is "yes - they are tight and tuneful - even the ones with a passive radiator - but the R218 which is 10" and all sealed would be for me the one to have w/ the 1.7's".  I don't have any experience w/ Rythmik subs, so can't comment.  The T-5 works well w/ MMG for the reasons described above (speed & room / price match w/ MMG). 

Lastly, I have heard briefly at an audio show the SVS SB13 though mostly in a HT demo.  I would certainly buy it at $1600 vs the REL G series for home theater at a fraction of the cost.  My concern would be that the cone is a bit too big and insufficiently rigid for adequate speed w/ Maggies for music.  But without having been able to do that particular demo, this would just be speculative on my part.  Ideally I'd want both a REL T or R for music (or perhaps even two), and an SVS SB13 for HT.  If / when I get more deeply into HT, then the cheapo entry level Velodynes will go on Craigslist and be replaced by an SVS SB13 - or God forbid TWO - for HT. 

As previously mentioned an alternative to REL is MJ Acoustics.  Basically many of their models are spec wise similar to the vaunted REL "R" series, but at lower cost.  Those deep piano gloss finishes of REL presumably aren't cheap, but on the other hand don't do anything to make them sound better.  And in a darkened room or hidden behind something even less materially important.  All of which is why MJA is on my watch list. 

And now I've rambled too long....hope the above helps!
Great, great stuff....thanks for sharing. I think the OP and others can have another look at REL.

jjay

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Re: Best sub for Magnepan 1.7s?
« Reply #13 on: 24 Jul 2014, 07:46 pm »
I recommend the JL Audio F110 subwoofer. I use it with my Magnepan 1.7 speakers and is clean, accurate bass. I also use a JL Audio F112 subwoofer with Martin Logan Vantage speakers. Highly recommended. Look for them used on Audiogon for a good price.

edn4x4

Re: Best sub for Magnepan 1.7s?
« Reply #14 on: 25 Jul 2014, 02:08 am »
edn4x4,
You have a similar system to mine.  Only difference is that my preamp is the Fet Valve Hybrid.  I have not had the money to upgrade to the "cf" version yet.  Is the upgrade worth it?
Right now I am leaning toward a Rythmik F12G, but I am not sure yet.

Yeah my system is similar to yours - guess where I got the idea from  :thumb:  I read a lot of your posts and jumped in.
I upgraded my t-9 to the cf and it was definitely worth it - larger sound stage and controlled bass.  (i was using ncore 400 before).  I also heard Larry's Ultra Plus http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=121288.0 in my system - that convinced me to go with the cf version.  I think you would be happy if you did the upgrade I know I was and Larry also agreed.
hope this helps.  I am not sure why you want the G version - I also looked into it and settled for the regular version.  The G allows you to cross up to 120 - but why as I run the 1.7s full and set the xover around 50. 
Anyway you choose I dont think you can go wrong.  Larry (I.Greyhound Fan) also stated when he heard my sub is that he thought is was a winner.

NIGHTFALL1970

Re: Best sub for Magnepan 1.7s?
« Reply #15 on: 25 Jul 2014, 10:03 am »
The "G" version is supposed to be lighter (i.e. Faster?) more detailed ,and more suited for music.  I have not heard either one so I am only going by what I have read.
« Last Edit: 25 Jul 2014, 03:53 pm by NIGHTFALL1970 »

bdp24

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Re: Best sub for Magnepan 1.7s?
« Reply #16 on: 27 Jul 2014, 08:37 am »
I am going crazy trying to decide between a Rythmik F12G with paper driver or a REL T-9 for my 1.7s.  Anyone compare these two with Maggies?

This may be a little radical for some, but GR's OB sub system is really great with panel speakers. The problem for some has been the fact that you can't buy a plug & play OB, you have to either make the H or W frame to hold the two woofers, or have one built. Well good news on that front---one of the woodworkers who builds enclosures for GR Research do-it-yourselfers is now offering an H-Frame into which a pair of the GR paper-cone drivers may be installed. All you have to do is assemble the frame and paint or veneer it. $500/pr plus shipping in MDF, a little more in Baltic birch.

rpthecoder

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Re: Best sub for Magnepan 1.7s?
« Reply #17 on: 17 Aug 2014, 02:06 am »
I am going crazy trying to decide between a Rythmik F12G with paper driver or a REL T-9 for my 1.7s.  Anyone compare these two with Maggies?

Hi NightFall,

See the article by Reber of Widescreen about Magnepan 3.7.   He has a HTS like LR: 3.7, C-CCR, surrounds 4 x 1.7.  He also had a review on SVS SB13 and concluded that it blends well with the Magnepans.  The common wisdom in magnepan avs official forum is that F12G and SB13 are both very subs that blends well with Magnepan.  You cannot go wrong with any.

Hope this helps,

rp

bmurphy

Re: Best sub for Magnepan 1.7s?
« Reply #18 on: 24 Aug 2014, 09:10 pm »
I have been very happy with a pair of SVS SB12-NSD subs using a pair of Velodyne Digital Drive SMS-1 units to integrate with the room and my Magnestand modded 1.5QRs. Chose those models based on the perceived "musicality" of the non ported design as I didn't need earth shaking power for a strictly 2 channel system. Total cost for the whole sub system (2 powered subs and 2 control units) was around $2k and I think it sounds extremely good. Setting things up was a little tricky - do one sub first, then the second with the first sub off then re-check and fine tune each sub with the other one running.

stustan

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Re: Best sub for Magnepan 1.7s?
« Reply #19 on: 29 Aug 2014, 01:03 pm »
I Love, Love, Love my 1.7 and my Rythmik F!2......I think they love each other too!  Every time I enter the room they seem to be closer together!   :green: