[Crimson]

Theft has nothing to do with the rightful demise of the so-called 'record industry'. Those who can distribute their music via independant channels welcome 'redistribution', and still make small fortunes. They understand the fact that the dinosaur is dead. Dead. And rightfully so.

Artists own the music. Not the record execs.

[bregez]

sorry, bregez, you are putting the cart before the horse - what you are hearing on the "billboards top 100" is cuz that's what the recording industry wants from the "artists" they are promoting.  if you're an artist not doing what the recording industry wants - no big record contract for you.

doug s.

Yes, you are correct on that one.  I guess the point I wanted to say is they are promoting garbage.  I work in higher education and I talk to students about what music they are listening to every quarter.  The answers are always the same including the bands "Boston", "Van Halen", "The Urge", "Pink Floyd", "Nirvana", etc..   I always respond with "After all these years, nothing better has come along so college students are still listening to at least 20 year old music". 
What age group is the recording industry catering to?

[Wayner]

I started my music collection in the '60s, if that dates me. The argument of recording music onto a tape medium does not hold water, at all. Of all my friends at the time, I was the only one recording, and what I was recording was  my own LPs, so I could keep them in as new condition. The time it took to record an album was about an hour, so I figure most people are in fact, lazy, so there collection of recorded tape was small.

Digital music is easy to copy and spread, like a disease. It's easy. Copying a CD to a CD-ROM is easy. Downloading a music file is easy. So easy come, easy go. Anyone that has spent anytime recording music onto tape knows this to be true.

What makes me ill, is people "demonizing" every industry, because the price of anything isn't a like when they were young. Tough hop. Have you ever paid for a doctor visit?

Wayner

[WC]

This chart says it all ... the future is in digital ... at least for now ...

This doesn't really show much since single sales has always been only a small portion of the industries sales. No surprise digital single sales are eclipsing the other media, do they even put out singles on physical media anymore?

[macrojack]

Corporate strangulation is the real culprit. All industries are now controlled by MBAs who aim to maximize profits and lawyers who aim to protect those profits. A song is no different than a shoe or a phone. All these things are just inventory to be moved. The human element has been removed and we miss it.

When I was coming up, the Beatles took over the world's attention and the recording industry opened itself to any and every performer who might prove to be another gold mine like the Fab Four. This was just like the phenomenon of Sutter's Mill - it was a gold rush. That's why we enjoyed the rush of new music that flooded our airwaves in the 1960s.

And while we're on the subject, our airwaves played an enormous part in distribution back then. You heard an incredible variety of now legendary music from your radio with DJs who had, and were allowed to display, wonderful personalities.

Nowadays, corporate decides who will be recorded and denies that opportunity to anyone unwilling to submit to the strictures and demands of corporate contracts. These contracts are intended to maximize the exploitation of the corporate property (artist). How much never gets past the corporate bean counters? How much is forced to take an underground route?

Unlike your FM radio from long ago, the internet reaches everywhere but also unlike your radio of yore, the internet is not one of five local stations - it is one of 5 million. So it's there and those clever, persistent or lucky enough may find it but the atmosphere is very diffuse and the chances minimal.

At the end of the day, the word that best explains where we lost our way is GREED!!
 

[doug s.]

The argument of recording music onto a tape medium does not hold water, at all. Of all my friends at the time, I was the only one recording, and what I was recording was  my own LPs, so I could keep them in as new condition. The time it took to record an album was about an hour, so I figure most people are in fact, lazy, so there collection of recorded tape was small.

Digital music is easy to copy and spread, like a disease. It's easy. Copying a CD to a CD-ROM is easy. Downloading a music file is easy. So easy come, easy go. Anyone that has spent anytime recording music onto tape knows this to be true.

What makes me ill, is people "demonizing" every industry, because the price of anything isn't a like when they were young. Tough hop. Have you ever paid for a doctor visit?

Wayner

wayner, the point you are missing, is that, regardless of how difficult or easy it is to record a tape vs recording a digital file is, the arguments made by the recording industry are exactly the same!  and, the reality of the situation has not changed, even tho it is easier to make digital copies - copying increases sales due to increased exposure.  and those artists that act in a less selfish manner are able to thrive.

what has changed, and the reason why the big labels are getting squeezed, is because, as mentioned, artists are learning they simply do not need the big recording companies any more.  much in the same way bricks-n-mortars audio shops are falling by the wayside.  much in the same way print media is falling by the wayside.  pirating is not the problem.  the problem is electronic communication is cutting out the need for the middleman - it is not a phenomenon unique to the recording industry.

the recording industry, in its death throes, is grasping at straws complaining about pirating.  if it wants to save itself, it needs to reinvent itself, not use the same "cry wolf" pirating excuse it has used for 40 years...

doug s.

[Letitroll98]

Diamond Dog and the link posted by nathanm really brought home some points to ponder beyond music piracy.  If you steal music you will be part of the problem when the free exchange of information across the internet ends.  Major "powers that be" want very much to end the ability of the common man to have access to all of this info and these "radical" ideas like free expression and individual rights.  Why else is there this synchronized worldwide push for this legislation?  Music piracy is one of their most powerful arguments.

Back to music and art, for those who didn't read nathanm's link, the comic Louis C.K. produced a video for $170,000 and sold $1 million worth of internet copies, with very little if any piracy by simply asking for people not to steal it and selling it for a reasonable $5 a copy.  This compared to (his facts) being paid $200k by a producers who would sell it for $20 a copy and prolly have a bunch of it pirated.  The author of the piece posits this is the way to market today, eliminate the middlemen.  I quote:   

Here is my list of lessons from the success of Louis C.K.’s self-released video:

Build relationships with customers using an approach that is engaging, personal, and honest.

Work toward long-term relationships with your customers so that they will trust your brand as long as you deliver high quality content and products.

Create a reasonable price. When the price point is attainable, both fans and people on the fence are willing to pay for the product rather than hunt for a pirated version.

Read up on the Stop Online Piracy Act. Stay informed when the bill returns to the House of Representatives this year.

[Wayner]

I get it alright Doug. I think you are out in left field. You don't think you need the big record companies? Try get your new music exposed to the masses. You can go the "little band" route, but you wont make any real money, because you wont get any exposure. Name me a top 100 band from a tiny record label. There simply isn't one.

Your idealist dreaming and demon creating wont change a thing in the record industry. Try get a radio station to play your music. Good luck. You must also have the same opinion of the movie industry. What big movie came from a little tiny studio? Blair Witch? It's the same guys in that business, too. Sony owns lots of music and movie studios, along with a couple of other business "Titans". Time/Warner, Capitol, CBS are the big players. They are the ones that can take a gamble on an unknown band. We see and hear the success stories. We do not see the losers in the fallout. How many bands that get recorded, make money? I heard once that over 250,000 albums are made every year. How is your band going to stick out of the crowd? By marketing and exposure. Yes, the big evil record companies are experts at it. They've been doing it for decades.

Wayner

[maxwalrath]

What makes me ill, is people "demonizing" every industry, because the price of anything isn't a like when they were young. Tough hop. Have you ever paid for a doctor visit?

Not every industry needs to be demonized. But when an industry sucks, why not demonize it? Unless you don't think it sucks...which must be frustrating when many others feel differently.

[doug s.]

Diamond Dog and the link posted by nathanm really brought home some points to ponder beyond music piracy.  If you steal music you will be part of the problem when the free exchange of information across the internet ends.  Major "powers that be" want very much to end the ability of the common man to have access to all of this info and these "radical" ideas like free expression and individual rights.  Why else is there this synchronized worldwide push for this legislation?  Music piracy is one of their most powerful arguments.

Back to music and art, for those who didn't read nathanm's link, the comic Louis C.K. produced a video for $170,000 and sold $1 million worth of internet copies, with very little if any piracy by simply asking for people not to steal it and selling it for a reasonable $5 a copy.  This compared to (his facts) being paid $200k by a producers who would sell it for $20 a copy and prolly have a bunch of it pirated.  The author of the piece posits this is the way to market today, eliminate the middlemen.  I quote:   

Here is my list of lessons from the success of Louis C.K.’s self-released video:

Build relationships with customers using an approach that is engaging, personal, and honest.

Work toward long-term relationships with your customers so that they will trust your brand as long as you deliver high quality content and products.

Create a reasonable price. When the price point is attainable, both fans and people on the fence are willing to pay for the product rather than hunt for a pirated version.

Read up on the Stop Online Piracy Act. Stay informed when the bill returns to the House of Representatives this year.

letitroll, i agree w/most of what you say.  and nate's post to that link simply reinforces my wiews that it's not piracy that's the problem.  everything on that link is spot on, imo.

but i disagree that those who pirate are responsible for the inewitable coming of end of the free exchange across the internet.  why?  cuz these powerful forces are pushing for the end to free info exchange, and even if there are zero issues, even if piracy is not a problem, these entities will make $hit up, if they have to, to get their way.  same as it ever was.

doug s.

[doug s.]

I get it alright Doug. I think you are out in left field. You don't think you need the big record companies? Try get your new music exposed to the masses. You can go the "little band" route, but you wont make any real money, because you wont get any exposure. Name me a top 100 band from a tiny record label. There simply isn't one.

Your idealist dreaming and demon creating wont change a thing in the record industry. Try get a radio station to play your music. Good luck. You must also have the same opinion of the movie industry. What big movie came from a little tiny studio? Blair Witch? It's the same guys in that business, too. Sony owns lots of music and movie studios, along with a couple of other business "Titans". Time/Warner, Capitol, CBS are the big players. They are the ones that can take a gamble on an unknown band. We see and hear the success stories. We do not see the losers in the fallout. How many bands that get recorded, make money? I heard once that over 250,000 albums are made every year. How is your band going to stick out of the crowd? By marketing and exposure. Yes, the big evil record companies are experts at it. They've been doing it for decades.

Wayner

s'ok wayner - you thinking i am out in left field i take as a supreme compliment - i must be doing something right!   

you may be correct, regarding "top 100" bands/record labels, etc.  all the more reason to see the big record companies fail.  quality music is inwersly proportional to how much money "top bands" on major labels earn, imo.  wanna sell out?  only in it for the money?  crank out a "product" for  a major record label, then.  please spare me the pain of having to listen to it, tho...  and, to be honest, i don't care if folks wanna steal doo-doo...  and, further, i don't care if these folks rolling in doo-doo, uh, sorry, i mean rolling in money, aren't rolling in quite so much...

btw, as you know, i am prolly the biggest supporter of radio on the entire a/c forum.  but, i don't care about those "top 100 bands" who are wanting to "get their music on radio" - i haven't listened to commercial radio in over 20 years - it sucks!!!  cuz, all the "top 100 bands", etc., are all that ever get played.  over and over and over and over and...  well, you get the picture...

ymmv,

doug s.

[Wayner]

The record industry will probably never go away, so get over it. They use the music studios to make music for the movies. Again, Doug, you miss the point. There may be less in the long run, but the control will never go away. Too much money at stake, and too much infrastructure.

Can bands make an album without a contract? NO.
Do we need attorneys to get a record made? YES
Can small record companies fund a year long recording session? NO
Can big companies fund long drawn out recording sessions? YES
Do small recording companies have producers, quality engineers, mastering engineers, all the internal BS required to make a quality product and get it distributed? NO
Is Target, Walmart and any other chain going to deal with "dougies small recording emporium" recording company? NO
And while the previous graph showed the ups and downs of various mediums for music, it did not show which music was from a large recording company and which was from a small, tiny erecord company. I'll just guess that the ratio is probably 100,000 to 1.

Wayner

[totoro]

The record industry will probably never go away, so get over it. They use the music studios to make music for the movies. Again, Doug, you miss the point. There may be less in the long run, but the control will never go away. Too much money at stake, and too much infrastructure.

Can bands make an album without a contract? NO.
Do we need attorneys to get a record made? YES
Can small record companies fund a year long recording session? NO
Can big companies fund long drawn out recording sessions? YES
Do small recording companies have producers, quality engineers, mastering engineers, all the internal BS required to make a quality product and get it distributed? NO
Is Target, Walmart and any other chain going to deal with "dougies small recording emporium" recording company? NO
And while the previous graph showed the ups and downs of various mediums for music, it did not show which music was from a large recording company and which was from a small, tiny erecord company. I'll just guess that the ratio is probably 100,000 to 1.

Wayner

You're making a few assumptions that seem really questionable to me. One is that, long term, it is in any way relevant what labels target and walmart choose to buy from. Long term, almost certainly, pretty nearly nobody is going to be buying actual physical discs. Even now, I only buy discs when it is completely impossible to get lossless downloads, and I'm not all that young. For younger people, the idea of buying a disc is already an anachronism.

Another assumption that seems to be getting made here is that recording studios == record companies. This simply isn't true. There are plenty of independent recording studios at all levels of fanciness and capability.

Another is that acts can only make money through contracts with the record companies. Ani DiFranco is a pretty good example of a performer who wasn't making much money with a fairly big-time contract. She makes more money now releasing stuff on her own on a smaller scale.

This gets us to the contracts: you've expressed yourself quite strongly that 1. the acts NEED to sign in order to survive, and 2. they should quit whining if the contracts suck.

The problem with this is several fold. First, it is no longer the case that performers NEED to sign with a big label to make any money. Second, the fact that the labels had essentially cartel power in the market meant that they were more or less able to force acts to sign really shitty contracts. It's hard for me to see anything good about this kind of market distortion. Cartels suck. And it should be noted that there is cartel/monopoly control over ticket sales at larger venues as well (which is a separate issue). As the need to sign with them recedes, this market distortion will be less and less powerful, which is another long term problem for the record labels.

A lot of the infrastructure seems to be A&R, which justifies its existence by weeding out the shitty music. Since the big labels are mostly producing absolute shit, this justification for their existence seems pretty weak as well.

Since it is going to be nearly impossible to charge high prices for recorded music in the long term, regardless of what neo-fascist legal regimes they manage to buy for themselves, it really looks like making a ton of money off of recorded music is not a viable long term business plan.

Musicians will have to go back to making most of their money playing music in front of other people, as they have for almost all of human history, and using recordings as a promotional tool. There will still be parasites sucking off of them, but the giant blood engorged bedbug that is the contemporary music industry will either have to adapt its business plans, or die.

I just wish they would do it faster.

[Tyson]

More live music as a result of the collapse of the current system would be a huge improvement, IMO.  Especially if it results in more shows and less expensive ticket prices, that's a double bonus.

[doug s.]

wayner, your response is an anachronism - completely irrelevant.  hardly anyone will be buying music from chains.

totoro, thank you for your succinct, more detailed explanation of what i said, only i said it in a much less detailed manner.   

doug s.

[doug s.]

wayner, i know two bands that made a record w/o a contract.  well, that's not 100% true - one of the albums isn't out yet...

doug s.

[macrojack]

It's not just the music industry. They are just another example of end stage capitalism. As it progresses, capitalistic commerce moves inevitably towards consolidation of wealth and power.
Before anyone complains, let me posit that this is economics and sociology, not politics.

Collapse is coming. I see and believe this but I can't see how to prepare. One thing I do know, however, is that you will be missing a lot of other things more than the access to recorded music that you now enjoy. Massive food shortages combined with ridiculously heavy public armament should raise the excitement level beyond whatever tragedy Hollywood has concocted for us this week. I'm glad I'm getting old.

[totoro]

It's not just the music industry. They are just another example of end stage capitalism. As it progresses, capitalistic commerce moves inevitably towards consolidation of wealth and power.
Before anyone complains, let me posit that this is economics and sociology, not politics.

Collapse is coming. I see and believe this but I can't see how to prepare. One thing I do know, however, is that you will be missing a lot of other things more than the access to recorded music that you now enjoy. Massive food shortages combined with ridiculously heavy public armament should raise the excitement level beyond whatever tragedy Hollywood has concocted for us this week. I'm glad I'm getting old.

I'm a little mystified as to how the collapse of the music industry is an example of the economy moving towards consolidation of wealth and power (let's just say for the sake of argument that such consolidation is happening, to take that off the table). If anything, it is a move the other way, towards musicians having control over their own fates.

Yes, it will be increasingly impossible to be the Rolling Stones. But so what? For most musicians, that was always the equivalent of hitting the lottery: almost no musicians ever got there, and the whole system was just a big cartel-dominated game of indentured servitude.

Perhaps you could make an argument that the heavy handed response to try to control the internet through rewriting the laws in order to preserve the industries power is an example of this, but otherwise I'm scratching my head over this one.

[totoro]

wayner, your response is an anachronism - completely irrelevant.  hardly anyone will be buying music from chains.

totoro, thank you for your succinct, more detailed explanation of what i said, only i said it in a much less detailed manner.   

doug s.

Yeah, I can be long-winded. But I wanted to nail the point home.

[doug s.]

Yeah, I can be long-winded. But I wanted to nail the point home.

you were not at all long-winded, imo - truly, a good post!   

doug s.