AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Von Schweikert Audio Owners => Topic started by: Delacroix on 13 Sep 2008, 01:52 pm
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There has been a mushrooming discussion of late on the best amps to partner Von S speakers but these are buried in multiple postings across the boards. Here's a placeholder for a focused discussion on amps/preamps.
Let me put a plug in for a few amps I've used/owned.
Currently I own a BAT VK 500 which works extremely well, producing a very musical sound with no obvious weaknesses, though the bass might be a little less defined than I heard when I reviewed a class D amp. This pairing just makes you want to listen to music, not discuss gear. I use it with two sets of Audio Art SC5 cables, one pair for the woofer section, one for the M/T module, both connected to the same BAT terminals. Works well but I do think a pair of dedicated shotgun cables is in my future.
I have an Audio Space Ref 3.1 tube integrated amp in for review at the moment, and despite the low power compared to the BAT, (26w in triode mode compared to BAT's 250w) it can sound superb with the Vons when it's warmed up. Tubes certainly have a magic that is hard to replicate otherwise. More to say on this later.
I've also spent a lot of time with a Wyred4Sound 4 channel amp which allowed me to explore biamping options. I wrote in detail about this in the Sept issue of http://www.affordableaudio.org (http://www.affordableaudio.org) but for those who want the quick read, it excels in clarity, with prodigious bass control but lacks that last bit of air I hear with my other amps.
I sense that several folks here have had wonderful experiences with Lamm and VAC amps.....so let's hear more.
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My moving from the VR4JR to the DB-99 SE obviously made me head towards flea powered amps. I've since been a SET convert. In my personal stable I own a pair of JE Labs designed V-Capped 300B monoblocks, a suped up V-Capped Sun Audio 2A3, and a JE Labs designed 45 amp using the Sun Audio VT25 Limited Edition chassis with Sun's Tamura trannies. All have provided magical music with the DB-99s. And I can say that despite the low powered wattage, they can handle some complicated passages from full orchestra to house and trance. I guess that's the advantage of having that powered sub-woofer.
Right now however, these three amps have been on static display since the arrival of the Lamm ML2.1.
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I use the Jolida JD3000 monoblocs. These amps are 200 WPC based on the 211 tube. They were upgraded by Mike Allen of Jolida. These are very powerful amps(great bass) but they also have very detailed presentation with that beautiful tube mids & highs!! They work very well with my VR-4jr's.
http://www.jolida.com/catalogue/models/jd3000a.shtml
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i'm using a yamamoto a-08s with my dB-99SE speakers. i've also used a cary v12r. one day in the future, i'd like to test the yamamoto vs. an art audio carissa. however, i think i'll wait until the 845 market stabilizes before dipping into those waters.
kevin t
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Initially, I used a cary rocket 88 to drive my vr4jr's. However, I couldn't push it to loud levels and the bass wasn't too well defined. I just needed more power so I got a McIntosh. I was first lent a solid state 200wpc Mac (mc 252) which had prodigious bass. Finally, now I'm using a 100wpc tubed model (mc2102). It has more detail and is more musically satisfying but bass is a little "soft" as compared to the ss model but that's Ok with me though. I'm happy with the tubed Mac driving the jrs. :). Hopefully in the future I can get another mc2102 so I can drive the jrs using these amps as monoblocks (or probably go biamp, whichever sounds better :))
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i'm using a yamamoto a-08s with my dB-99SE speakers. i've also used a cary v12r. one day in the future, i'd like to test the yamamoto vs. an art audio carissa. however, i think i'll wait until the 845 market stabilizes before dipping into those waters.
kevin t
Hi Kevin. I was eyeing those Yamamoto's since before. Unfortunately, they aren't available in the Philippines. I did correspond via email with Yamamoto-san in Japan but it was tough as he was using a computer program translating Japanese to English. It was too tough to understand. In the end I got a modified Sun VT25 that now uses 45 tubes. My query, how would you describe the Yamamoto sound on the DB's? Can it handle full orchestra at loud SPLs?
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I used the NAD 320BEE when I had the VR-1s, and then upgraded to the Primaluna Prologue One which resulted in a much wider and deeper
soundstage and a beautiful fluid mid-range typical of tubes.
I then upgraded the speakers to the Unifield 3 (a modest upgrade aa :roll: and opinions to follow). The Prologue just didnt have the power
or bass capability to drive this and I upgraded to the Dialogue Two. The result was phenomenal and breathtaking. The reviews and awards for
the Dialogue integrated speak for themselves. Incredibly wide and deep soundstage, pinpoint imaging, rich and detailed mid-range,
extended airy highs and terrific dynamic snap.
I think Albert demos his speakers at trade shows using the Audio Research tube amps which supposedly work great as well.
-Arun
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keith:
i would describe the sound of the yamamoto as razor sharp in detail. it's very well rounded without being slow or bloated. i don't listen to full orchestral works so i can't comment on whether it could do them justice. i do listen to a lot of rock and industrial music. i've never felt that the amplifier was running out of steam at the volumes i listen (usually fairly loud). my listening room is about 2300+ cubic feet. i use the yamamoto with a supratek dual cabernet. it's an amazing pairing.
kevin t
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I've learned with my VR5s the truth of the argument that the first watt is the most important. Muscle helps in some ways, not all of them obviously tied to bass reproduction, but the magic seems to be in the midrange, and getting this right involves something other than power. I forget to mention earlier that I've used a Naim Nait 2 with the Vons too and while it's hard to get exact ratings for anything Naim, I know this has less than 30w. It worked well enough that I begun to think amplifier differences were not worth spending too much money on, until I put the BAT back in of course :)
What's intriguing me is how many people seem to have gone the monoblock route, and while I can appreciate the advantages, I'd like to hear from people about their experiences doing this with VSA. I particularly would like to hear from anyone who has horizontally biamped with tubes on top of solid state (any gain problems etc.) I'm intrigued by the notion of using a lower powered tube amp on top of my BAT.
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I particularly would like to hear from anyone who has horizontally biamped with tubes on top of solid state (any gain problems etc.) I'm intrigued by the notion of using a lower powered tube amp on top of my BAT.
Only way to really know is to try. The VSA crossover specs aren't much discussed on the website, but I can gather that the x-over point between the top module and bass is 150 Hz of unknown slope (likely steep slope, given the "global axis" deal). 150 Hz should be low enough to *almost* let you achieve coherence between tube amp on top and SS on bottom, i.e. not introduce too much confusion in low-midrange/upper-bass area.
VSA also specs sensitivity of 94 dB @ 1w/1m 2.83V but doesn't tell you into what Ohms. If it's meant into 4 Ohms, traditional sensitivity rating would be 91 dB @1w/1m/8 Ohms. These figures are rather similar to my own horizontally-biamped speakers, currently at 140 Hz/18dB slope, which *is* low enough to result in a nice, coherent sound when used with SET on top and SS on bass.
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If you download the relevant manual from the VSA site, you will find crossover points in the specs.
They have manuals posted up to the VR-7 SE.
For the VR-4jr it reads "Crossover Points: 200 Hz, 2.2 kHz"
For the VR-7 SE is reads "Crossover Points: 190 Hz, 1.9 kHz, 19kHz"
Bill C
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I particularly would like to hear from anyone who has horizontally biamped with tubes on top of solid state (any gain problems etc.) I'm intrigued by the notion of using a lower powered tube amp on top of my BAT.
I'm doing just that now. 100 watt tube on top and a (borrowed) 600/1200 8/4 SS Sunfire on the bottom.
With the 200 hz crossover, there really isn't much problem matching-wise. When I turn the tubes off and listen to the bass bins only, there really isn't too much readily intelligible, audiophile-quality information. I mean, there's bass and some impact and all, but overall pretty mushy and indistinct - I was surprised how much so. Try it - unplug the upper cabs and check it out. So I think the quality of the bass amp could be skimped, if need be, for power without impacting the heart of the music in the mids.
Thinking of sending the VAC back to Kevin to get it wired for triode, then trying to match with mono ICE-power amps possibly in the future.
This cuts the tube power in half-ish but will still be plenty, even for my oft dreamed of upgrade to 4SRIIs.
For now the setup sounds great, to me. I feel that the mids and highs improved significantly when the tube amp was relieved of the bass duties (and the VAC is a gutsy 100 watt tube amp).
I can definitely recommend trying out a biamp setup such as this. 1200 watts on VR4JR bass cabinets = woohoo
Gain-wise the amps are pretty close by ear. I keep asking if there is too much bass, too much treble etc and overall I like the balance - pretty even top to bottom. :drool:
-Mike
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I particularly would like to hear from anyone who has horizontally biamped with tubes on top of solid state (any gain problems etc.) I'm intrigued by the notion of using a lower powered tube amp on top of my BAT.
I'm doing just that now. 100 watt tube on top and a (borrowed) 600/1200 8/4 SS Sunfire on the bottom.
With the 200 hz crossover, there really isn't much problem matching-wise.
That's what I mean. I paired two channels of a W4S amp ( 2 x 500w) in the bass with my BAT VK 500 (2x 250w) in the mids/uppers for a test this summer, using two pairs of XLR cables from my PS Audio preamp (which has double outs) and two pairs of Audio Art SC5 speaker cables (1 pair per amp). Despite a 3db difference in the gain according to each amp's spec, the results were really pleasing. The class D on the bass gave me a super tight bass which when used without the BAT tended to be too sharp for my ears, but in partnership worked really well. The BAT has a wonderful musical delicacy that, once freed from powering the bass, gives the music real life. The combo was too bulky and costly in combination for me to keep but it had me thinking about buying a couple of W4S mono modules just for bass duties.
Originally, before trying this, I contacted various amp manufacturers and received very mixed suggestions - ranging from 'try it and see, it'll likely work' from Victor at BAT to 'the gain differences are huge and this will never work' from one of support staff at another manufacturer (not W4S). I only had the two amps together for a short while so I didn't really get a chance to live with this, and we all know you have to live with a sound to really know it, but in the hours I spent listening to the combo, I found the lack of a perfect gain match to be a small issue. Of course, BAT suggested I really try to get a pair of their top of the range tube monos for the top to pair with the VK500 but even they admitted this might take some time with attenuators (and no little money) to get to work.
At the other end of the complication and costs scales, I am now really enjoying an integrated tube amp at the moment....sweet music from a simple package. Now that is hard to beat.
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I have three VR4 JR with the right and left speakers powered by a Parasound A21 and the center by a Parasound A51 which also drives four TS150 speakers for the side and rear surrounds. My preamp processor is a Parasound C2. I have been very happy with this combination for both music and home theater.
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We may be Lamm dealers but that only came about after an extensive search for what we considered to be the best match for VSA speakers from the VR-4 SR II on up. The grain of salt should also be quite a bit smaller since you guys are outside our market. In my personal opinion the new generation Lamm amps that shed off the last vestiges of darkness in lieu of a more profound inner lit quality and finely filigreed as opposed to a crystaline top end are the perfect match for VSA loudspeakers. Both VSA and Lamm excel at the reproduction of even the most complex harmonic structures with no over emphasis from top to bottom. The result is musicality without having to sacrifice inner detail and microdynamic swings. The sound is extremely well balanced.
The caveat is that to get the utmost best be prepared to first invest in the room and also to invest in proper equipment isolation. Don't sweat the power requirements. Outside of good power cords, Lamm's built in power conditioning is at par or better than after market external line conditioners.
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Anyone ever hear the Red Wine amps with the Vons? I asked over on the Red Wine circle a while back and did not get any feedback other than comments indicating there would be no problem given the specs, but I am really interested in hearing from people who have heard this for themselves. The Red Wines are fascinating in that they are battery operated and the thought of moving off the grid, and giving up with expensive power cords is always a plus.
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Great thread! I am new here and very happy to find specific interest in VS speakers. I currently have the VR4SR MkI. I purchased these from forum member Disco in Plano Tx. (Hey Scott!). At the time of purchase I was using a Llano Designs A200 SS amp with a Morrison Elad pre. About 5 months ago, the Llano had a catastrophic meltdown, and the search was on for a new amp. In the meantime I had upgraded my pre to a Thor Audio TA1000MkII. I have no local dealers to advise me and I am 200 miles from Dallas, so I haunted the internet and Audiogon for ideas. Finally decided to call Albert and ask his opinion. By the way, I have never had such personal attention from any manufacturer of any product. Albert, after listening to my story and asking about my room and musical tastes recommended I try the AudioSpace ref. 3.1 with the KT88 tubes. He said these amps seem to have a special synergy with his speakers. I was initially worried at having only 26 watts in triode or 42 watts in ultralinear, but Albert said I should be fine as long as I didn't need to listen to Metallica at concert levels. Albert informed me that they do a cap upgrade in house to improve the already good amp. Needless to say I ordered one. I have been living with the amp for approximately 5 months now and for the most part I have been happy. It took the bass about 50 to 60 hours to fully show up. A recent trip to Dallas to hear Wilson Watt Puppy 8's with Boulder electronics made me realize I was lacking "air" and "presence" in my setup. Another call to Albert and I have since upgraded input tubes to NOS and changed source interconnects to Verastarr Silver Reference. I feel I am on the right path and the tubes and interconnects made a large difference, but at some point I may move on and try some class D amps with a tube pre. (I have since sold my Thor). I will keep watching this thread to see what success all of you have had with various electronics.
Good Listening!
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I've always thought about the RedWine stuff for the mid/tweeter cabinet w/ traditional SS for the bass.
And I think it's available (standard, maybe) w/ a quality attenuator to make biamping a snap.
This is definitely worth a try for somebody.
-Mike
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Would a VR4 SR MKII owner be ostracized if he chose MAC amplifiers? The MC46 preamp and the MC252 2CH power amp...both are solid state (shudder) :roll:.
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Hi es347,
I believe the majority of VS owners are passionate about great sound and music as opposed to being zealots for tubes, solid state, digital or analog. As such VR owners don't do much ostracizing :)
VR speakers are unique in their implementation having all the patented goodies packed into them. The ambience tweeter alone gets raised eyebrows from so called purists. The fact that you are even considering VRs means you are an open minded individual with a penchant for exploration just as all the VR owners I know are.
Jack
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"The fact that you are even considering VRs means you are an open minded individual with a penchant for exploration just as all the VR owners I know are."
Jack
A penchant for exploration....or terminally naive. I can't believe I have actually spent this much on a speaker I've never listened to. It boggles the mind.
Gavin
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I have been using monoblock Bel Canto M300s for my VSA VR-4JR I front speakers. They are bi-wired, if that makes a difference. I am very happy. I would describe the sound as very detailed, pin-point imaging, life-like voices and string instruments, crisp bass. On strident sources such as older CDs, the highest frequencies can be sharp. I have never tried tubes, and since I like what I hear am not motivated to change.
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Yesterday my wife and I visited the "local" (relative term) McIntosh dealer to discuss a package deal, trading in my amp, preamp+CD&SACD players in on a MCD301 player, MC46 preamp and MC252 amp. No deal was consumated but we did take home the 301 for an audition. I was not impressed thinking that both my Arcam cd player and the Marantz outperformed the MAC. Being lazy I had patched the 301 in my McCormack preamp with different cables...they were Eichmann express 4s, a decent cable. My wife suggested that I use the same MIT cables I had on the old units for consistency. Not being a real cable enthusiast I reluctantly connected the 301 with the MIT ICs, (MI 330+ neatly bundled with tie wraps..grrrr) prepared to hear no difference. Holy cow folks, the MCD301 was transformed into a beast, easily trumping the Marantz on SACD and the Arcam FMJ on redbook playback. The Arcam, believe it or not, is one heck of a cd player but the MAC was clearly better. Now I am getting to the reason for posting this message. My system is a different system with the new source, one that I could spend the foreseeable future listening to (except for the speakers Albert). My preamp is a McCormack RLD-1 and my amp is the McCormack DNA 0.5 delux. I don't have my VR4 SR MKIIs yet so am still listening to my old Martin Logan Aerius i's with a velodyne subwooofer. The sound is outstanding so I am thinking about only replacing the players at this point and seeing what these amps sound like driving the Von Schweikerts. For those of you unfamiliar with McCormack products, the DNA was an amp that Steve McCormack designed and marketed before he sold his company to CJ. The RLD-1 preamp is his design but mfd. by the "new" CJ-McCormack company. His SS products are known for their non-fatiguing yet detailed sound, sharing some of the good aspects of tube amps but having the advantages of SS. Problem, perhaps, is the amp is only 100w per side (as I recall). It drives the MLs just fine but not sure how it will fare with the VR4s. Does anyone have experience with driving the VR4s with McCormack amps particularly the 0.5? If I stay with these amps permanently, I plan to send them to S. McCormack for his heralded upgrades. Sorry for the long message. Thanks for reading this far.
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My preamp is a McCormack RLD-1 and my amp is the McCormack DNA 0.5 delux. I don't have my VR4 SR MKIIs yet so am still listening to my old Martin Logan Aerius i's with a velodyne subwooofer. The sound is outstanding so I am thinking about only replacing the players at this point and seeing what these amps sound like driving the Von Schweikerts. .....Does anyone have experience with driving the VR4s with McCormack amps particularly the 0.5? If I stay with these amps permanently, I plan to send them to S. McCormack for his heralded upgrades. Sorry for the long message. Thanks for reading this far.
HI -- I owned a DNA.5 for years, partnered with TLC-1 pre from McCormack, and while I did not own that amp with the Vons, I have always regretted selling it. In my experience, the BAT VK500 I ended up with was a little better but cost a ton more, but the speakers I used to own apparently needed much more power (so the company told me) and the BAT seemed the answer. Now the BAT is fine, a real gem of an amp, but I always wondered what I could have got out of the DNA.5 had I sent it off to Steve to be mod'd. I once took the DNA.5 over to a friend's house when he had sunk some large sums into an Audio Research power amp. We listened to both in his set up and neither of us could really tell them apart.
In my view you would be doing the right thing by keeping the RLD and DNA combo until you have really heard the Vons in your home, and then only slowly considering upgrades when you can try them in your own home. The McCormack DNA.5 is a wonderful amp, full stop. Better speakers will allow you to enjoy it a while longer.
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Yes it is a wonderful amp but today I took a rather large plunge and went total McIntosh: CDP301 SACD player, C46 preamp and MC252 power amp. I have spoken with a couple of gentlemen who drive their VR4s with MAC gear and love it so....after days of surfing for reviews and auditioning the equipment in the store and here in my home, I did it. It may have been the allure of those wondrous blue meter lights...not really, McIntosh gear is very listenable, a lot like my dna 0.5 on steroids. My VR4 SR MKIIs are scheduled to ship tomorrow and I am very excited.
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Well you surely will be happy....poorer too, but happy :D
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Well you surely will be happy....poorer too, but happy :D
Perhaps poorer in bank balance but richer in quality of life! :thumb:
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I am using a Simaudio W5 amp with a VR5 anniversary (modification from vr4) and I am thinking about changing to a bi-amp setup. I have several criteria. Obviously, I would like good bass on the bottom and a very tube or tubelike sound on the top. My habits are that I often only have bouts of 30-35 minutes to listen (multiple times a day) so lack of warm up time would be nice. I and my family are extremely conscious now of power usage so low power is a plus. I am also very bad about remembering to put my amp on standby.
I thought about this for a while and at first :cry: salivated over the ideas of a VAC on top but I am now wondering about simply using a battery powered red wine 30.2 on top and a ICE amp like Wyred4Sound or Nuforce or Channel Islands on bottom.
In the VR five, the vast majority of the sound above 150 Hz is coming from the top. I have never heard a red wine amp with a Von Schweikert speaker and have actually only heard it one time at all. However, I have never seen a bad review of this amp. As for the woofer, a good ICE amp should provide controlled, tight bass. I am using a TACT pre-amp and that should easily adjust the sound volumes coming from both amps.
I know that our moderator has had experience with the Wyred4Sound as far as the woofer would be concerned. It seems to me like this should be a good combination and would solve a lot of my practical problems. Has anyone had experience with the red wine amp's? Does anyone have any comments on how this plan sounds?
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I particularly would like to hear from anyone who has horizontally biamped with tubes on top of solid state (any gain problems etc.) I'm intrigued by the notion of using a lower powered tube amp on top of my BAT.
I'm doing just that now. 100 watt tube on top and a (borrowed) 600/1200 8/4 SS Sunfire on the bottom.
With the 200 hz crossover, there really isn't much problem matching-wise. When I turn the tubes off and listen to the bass bins only, there really isn't too much readily intelligible, audiophile-quality information. I mean, there's bass and some impact and all, but overall pretty mushy and indistinct - I was surprised how much so. Try it - unplug the upper cabs and check it out. So I think the quality of the bass amp could be skimped, if need be, for power without impacting the heart of the music in the mids.
Thinking of sending the VAC back to Kevin to get it wired for triode, then trying to match with mono ICE-power amps possibly in the future.
This cuts the tube power in half-ish but will still be plenty, even for my oft dreamed of upgrade to 4SRIIs.
For now the setup sounds great, to me. I feel that the mids and highs improved significantly when the tube amp was relieved of the bass duties (and the VAC is a gutsy 100 watt tube amp).
I can definitely recommend trying out a biamp setup such as this. 1200 watts on VR4JR bass cabinets = woohoo
Gain-wise the amps are pretty close by ear. I keep asking if there is too much bass, too much treble etc and overall I like the balance - pretty even top to bottom. :drool:
-Mike
Mike, have you ever tried Chris's Butler Audio tube hybrid amps with your loudspeakers? Thanks.
Cheers,
Robin
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Hi Robin,
IIRC, Chris had the badass Butlers at my house last year, but at the time I think they were only used on his Timepieces which everyone was eager to hear. Then Crazy Mike put in his Nuforces w/ my SS Superphon preamp and it was waaaay too sterile. Topround Mike then put in his little Maple??? tube pre and things got much better. It's possible that the Butlers weren't even there :oops: anyway I do not recall a Butler/VSA pairing.
In any event, Raves are great for exposure to a wide range of gear, but I remain left with only the gut/knee-jerk reaction to what I hear - They aren't the place for dissecting nuances of anything except food and wine :lol:
I think one theme to the Which amps work w/ VSA question is that they aren't a particularly tough load, which opens up options.
-Mike
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Hi Robin,
IIRC, Chris had the badass Butlers at my house last year, but at the time I think they were only used on his Timepieces which everyone was eager to hear. Then Crazy Mike put in his Nuforces w/ my SS Superphon preamp and it was waaaay too sterile. Topround Mike then put in his little Maple??? tube pre and things got much better. It's possible that the Butlers weren't even there :oops: anyway I do not recall a Butler/VSA pairing.
In any event, Raves are great for exposure to a wide range of gear, but I remain left with only the gut/knee-jerk reaction to what I hear - They aren't the place for dissecting nuances of anything except food and wine :lol:
I think one theme to the Which amps work w/ VSA question is that they aren't a particularly tough load, which opens up options.
-Mike
That's ashame to have had them there and not to have heard them on your system. But at a NY RAVE, one does need to have their priorities squared away. Crazy Mike sure knows the way. :lol:
Cheers,
Robin
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Yes it is a wonderful amp but today I took a rather large plunge and went total McIntosh: CDP301 SACD player, C46 preamp and MC252 power amp. I have spoken with a couple of gentlemen who drive their VR4s with MAC gear and love it so....after days of surfing for reviews and auditioning the equipment in the store and here in my home, I did it. It may have been the allure of those wondrous blue meter lights...not really, McIntosh gear is very listenable, a lot like my dna 0.5 on steroids. My VR4 SR MKIIs are scheduled to ship tomorrow and I am very excited.
Keeps us posted! I have been following the thread and can certainly agree with your audio experiences. I have only heard the McCormick 225 with Vandersteen and Mageplanar speakers. Very nice, I was not local so could not do in home demo.
I have had interest in McIntosh gear for some time and have heard at many shops but mated with completely different systems than my own, plus the local dealer does not do any demo's any more. I just have not pulled the trigger.
I have heard extensively the first version of the VR4jr is there a second version out now? I listen for many hours with ASL and Moon W5 amps with very good gear in front and ultimately went a different route but not because I did not like the VR4jr's.
Enjoy!
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Anyone looking for a great mid-priced amp for VR4 series speakers would be well served by the Parasound A21 (paid $1800 new from my local dealer). I have been driving my original VR4s with this amp for some time now, and am very pleased with the results (6H30 based tubed preamp). The next best amps of all I have tried with my VR4s are CIAudio D-100 monoblocks. These are a bargain and very close in performance to the A21, but not quite as "there" at the frequency extremes.
Other amps I've been through:
Bryston 3BSST
Monarchy Audio SE-100 Deluxe (TOO smooth, if that's possible.)
NuForce 9s (early rev. WAY too clinical)
NuForce IA-7 (noisy)
Various Tripath "Class-D" types (midrange hash)
Homebrew Hypex "Class-D" based (never could match the CIAudio amps with the SAME modules. Dusty has gotten every last bit of performance out of Hypex, despite what DIY geniuses write)
Modified Hafler 9300
A couple of different push-pull tubed integrateds, 16w to 40w (these could not really grab the woofers by the short-hairs)
At least one other that is not memorable
The fact that I've stayed with the A21 for over a year means it's working for me.
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Is anyone powering their VRs with vintage equipment? I'm using a restored Kenwood Supreme 700m amp and 700c pre from the mid-70s to power my VR4 HSE's. Fabulous sound. Have been interested in bi-amping with a tube amp covering the mids and highs, but haven't yet opened that can of worms.
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Hi
Running my VR4SRMKI with McIntosh 2*Mc252 to the bass module and 2*Mc275 tube for the mid/tweeter.
All in monoblocks. Nice and powerfull sound. aa :rock:
Thanks
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Hi
Running my VR4SRMKI with McIntosh 2*Mc252 to the bass module and 2*Mc275 tube for the mid/tweeter.
All in monoblocks. Nice and powerfull sound. aa :rock:
Thanks
:o :o :o :drool:
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Phew....a four-mac set up has me just feeling so limited with my simple BAT VK500......:)
On the other hand, I have this curious interest in hearing my Vr5s with some low watt amps done right. Anyone here using a few watts only on their speakers? I've tried the Audio Space Ref 3.1 interegrated and a Naim Nait 2 integrated, but I'd be curious to learn from anyone who used a power amp of 25w or less for the whole set up (not just for biamping the uppers)
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Phew....a four-mac set up has me just feeling so limited with my simple BAT VK500......:)
On the other hand, I have this curious interest in hearing my Vr5s with some low watt amps done right. Anyone here using a few watts only on their speakers? I've tried the Audio Space Ref 3.1 interegrated and a Naim Nait 2 integrated, but I'd be curious to learn from anyone who used a power amp of 25w or less for the whole set up (not just for biamping the uppers)
I have been planning to post on the results of using a 16 watt Art Audio Carissa SET with my VR4 sr's. I guess this is as good a time as any. I must say this pairing is fantastic. The quality of the amp is far more important than the total watts. The sr's are 92 db speakers and the 5's are 94 so they don't need that much power if the amp can do the dynamics well. I am getting older and don't like headbanging volumes for very long periods of time but I still love a powerful punchy fairly loud presentation. The Carissa VR4 combo can get the room shaking. Having the dynamics right is good but without a beautiful midrange performance it would not matter. It is in the midrange where the VR4 and Carissa are a marriage made in heaven. The midrange is very clean and detailed but also so sweet and envolving. I think the key for VSA speakers is to feed them a good signal and they will reward you with a great musical presentation. Don't be afraid to adjust the amount of stuffing in the bass cabinet. I took a bunch out to free up the bottom end. It's nice to be able to adjust the bass to fit the room or the amp.
Blessings to you all, Bob
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There is a pretty well-known synergy between VSA speakers and VAC electronics - I have A VAC Phi 300.1 amp and Phi 2.0 preamp driving my VR-7SE's and the sound is just magical. Also using a Velodyne DD-15 sub and all SYnergistic Research Tesla cabling throughout. I owe a big thanks to Albert and Bob for tuning my speakers/sub/room to get such great sound during RMAF - I was and continue to be amazed at what a positive difference there is by integrating :D :Dthat sub (which I had only used for HT the past several years). There is a lesson here....
As an aside, I used to use a McCormack DNA-500 in my system, but before the VR-7s. The sound was very, very good and I would guess it as well as comparable McCormack amps mentioned above would sound great with VR-4s and 5's. The VAC is just in another league.
BTW, I still have the DNA-500 - someday it will be part of a 2nd system and/or dedicated HT - there is NO WAY I'm letting it go - its just too good at what it does...
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Hi everybody
Reason that I have four amps is because of the large room I have. Have tried only with tube in mono with great result (150W per speaker) and one MC252 to the bass and one MC275 to the midtweeter, both combination works very well. But I must say that single amp like one Quad909, you can run it, but aren't enough. Those speaker has to be at least bi- or monoamped.
Thanks
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Well this thread is a testament to how good VSA works with all kinds of amps. I have the VR4SRMKII for about 2 years now and each tweak has been a revelation to the transparency of the speakers. I first went with McIntosh MC402(ss) and thought I had the best set-up IMO(bi-wire of course). Then as I re-read the manual, Albert seems to push for bi-amp. So curiosity got me and now I have my current set-up. I have a vertically bi-amped/bi-wired system. All McIntosh with MC402 powering the bass module and the MC501(2) monoblocks powering the midtweets. I also put into the circuit a tubed pre C2200(McIntosh). ADDICTING!!!! is all I can say. Albert is right, just go bi-wire/bi-amp to fully realize its potential. Midrange is so silky, highs are detailed but not fatiguing, and bass is controlled! Now Im curious about VSA cabling hmmm.
Sorry for the lenghthy post of my VSA journey.
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I consider the Von Schweikert VR2's a diamond in the rough, but after adding internal bracing and damping the speaker baskets with modeling clay this diamond really begins to shine. In my 11.5' x 15' room the speakers have always sounded on the warm side of neutral, and with a solid low end to 25 Hz I was looking for a clean sounding neutral solid state amp. The Audio by Van Alstine Insight electronics fit the bill perfectly, I bought the Insight 440 amp, EC pre-amp and DAC.
I would guess that most people who have bought the VR2's have a beer budget, the no-nonsense AVA products are very affordable but also have impeccable sound. Or I should say they have no sound of their own. The entire Insight series: amp, pre-amp, and DAC, are completely neutral; what you hear is on the source without the electronics adding their own signature. The sound can be shocking at first if you are used to tube gear or less well engineered solid state electronics. No mid-bass hump, tube bloom, screechy highs, or boomy bass, just clear sound that draws you in and never harsh no matter how loud you like your music.
Keeping with the well engineered philosophy, all AVA products come with a 2 prong captive power cord which minimizes ground loops (also you are no longer tempted to spend hundreds extra on after market power cords) and because Frank knows what he is doing, speaker cables do not make very much difference to the amps sound. Read about how lamp cord (Frank's cable of choice) compared to MIT's $1500 a pair super cables in an A-B test at the 2008 RMAF:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=60159.msg539789#msg539789 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=60159.msg539789#msg539789)
The two Insight products that made the largest change in the sound are the DAC and pre-amp. The DAC certainly deserves all the praise it has received so far, once you hear it in your system you begin to wonder what an entire Van Alstine setup would sound like.
AVA has a 30 day trial but very few people end up returning their electronics. Give AVA a call to find out more, 90% of the time the person who picks up the phone is Frank, you can discuss your system, how you would like it to sound, and based on your room and speakers get advise without any bullshit.
Wayne
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yes, I have to say, the AVA line has always intrigued me. I'd love to try a pair of their FET power amps on the Vons. Those amps always look like great value, with the money put where it makes a difference. I am less convinced that lamp cord or captive cords are good enough, all other things being equal, but I accept that in the absence of compelling evidence to the contrary, Frank holds the high ground. Now, if I only had enough money to play around with endless home trials. I did offer once to do a review of their amps for Affordable Audio but never got a response from AVA, a fact I put down to the company's priority of dealing first with customers. No argument with that, but I do wish the mags with more influence (TAS, S'phile, Six Moons etc) would take this company on seriously.
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I have the latest NuForce 8.5V2 with matching P-8 preamp in for review now. The Audio Space Ref 3.1 is going back, the review of that in the latest issue of Affordable Audio -- it's a great amp with the Vons. Too soon to comment on the Nuforce but man, I love being able to lift an amp with one hand :) I'll let you know how it works out. Interested in hearing from Nuforce owners or those who've heard the amp with their Vons.
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I hear ya about lugging equipment around. I had inguinal hernia repair last Feb and no doubt how it originated. I'm using a Karan Acoustics amplifier,, the KAS 180 on my 5's and the Bel Canto Ref 1000's on my Uni 3's. Not only are the Bel Canto's a terrific mix of power and grace they are an easy fit on the shelf and easy on the back! Sonically,, transparent and neutral. See http://uk.cinenow.com/videos/1861-bel-canto-s-500-stereo-power-amplifier-top-audio-milan-2008
Jack
Houston
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I hear ya about lugging equipment around. I had inguinal hernia repair last Feb and no doubt how it originated. I'm using a Karan Acoustics amplifier,, the KAS 180 on my 5's and the Bel Canto Ref 1000's on my Uni 3's. Not only are the Bel Canto's a terrific mix of power and grace they are an easy fit on the shelf and easy on the back! Sonically,, transparent and neutral. See http://uk.cinenow.com/videos/1861-bel-canto-s-500-stereo-power-amplifier-top-audio-milan-2008
Jack
Houston
Hi Jack -- interesting links -- have you tried the new Bel Canto monos on your VR5s?
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I just spent 3 weeks with a DAC (Digital Amplifier Company) Class D amp powering my VR4JRs very very nicely:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=61748.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=61748.0)
Going back to the VAC tube amp shows that the tubes are a little overmatched in the bass when pushed full-range, of course not having near the definition of the powerful Class D amp. When I've biamped with the tubes on the mid/tweeters there was a big improvement there.
-Mike
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Mike
Very interesting comments -- thanks for the Cherry update. It is rare to hear anyone admit that there might be limits to a VAC amp! I agree with your biamping experience, I really liked the Wyred4Sound running the bass and my VK500 on the uppers for my VR5s, got me thinking a class D amp in combo with a great amp for the uppers would be a fantastic combo, if you can get them to blend. The deal on the Cherry right now (66% off) seems incredible........
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I own a VS VR5 Anniversary and I have an unsual combination of amps
Pre Aesthetix Callisto Eclipse (tubed pre + tubed power supply - 16 tubes in total)
Stereo Amp Edge NL 12.1 Special Edition
The result is truly amazing and there is a combination of delicacy, lifelike transperancy and brutal force that you find very rarely!!
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I was just checking back on this thread to see how many amps we'd covered and it's a ton (I'll try summarize a little more formally this weekend) but I note we've not heard from anyone who has tried a Spectron with the Vons -- I recall reading in other forums that this was a great match and that Albert had used Spectrons in designing the amps but I can't locate the source. Anyone heard this combo?
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OK, being the snythesizer that I am, I went back to check on all those amps mentioned so far as working well in the views of owners of VSA speakers - here's a summary to date, sorry if I missed anything, but surely not the end of this story:
Solid State
BAT VK500
Mcintosh MC 252
Mcintosh MC 402
Mcintosh MC 501
Parasound A21
McCormack DNA 500
Simaudio W5
Karan Acoustics KAS 180
Edge NL 12.1 Special Edition
Quad 909 (horizontally biamped)
Tube
Audio Space 3.1 (x2)
Lamm ML2.1
Jolida JD monos
Yamamoto A-08s
JE Labs designed V-Capped 300B monoblocks,
Mcintosh MC2101
Mcintosh MC275
PrimaLuna Dialogue 2
VAC PA100/100 amp
VAC Phi 300.1
Art Audio Carissa SET
Class D
Wyred4Sound MC4 (biamped)
Bel Canto M300 monos
Bel Canto Ref 1000s
Digital Audio Company Cherry
Not so desirable?
Cary Rocket 88
Seems like Mcintosh is the most popular make, usually combined in a variety of mono configurations (up to 4 dedicated amps) for optimal results. But there's a number of Class D successes also. Keep 'em coming....and I encourage you to tell us which did NOT work so well....if any....
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I have a feeling that the McCormack DNA 500 would be wonderful with any VSA speaker and it is an absolute steal. I owned his DNA 0.5 for years and it was really, really good with ML speakers. I would have gone that route but got sucked in by those mesmerizing aqua blue meter lights. No regrets except for the fact that we can only eat meat once a week now.
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Delacroix
You can add to the list Quad 909 in horisontal Bi-amp setup.
Works very well for VR4GenIII and VR4SR. Great power from those small amps. :thumb:
Thanks
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Delacroix
You can add to the list Quad 909 in vertical Bi-amp setup.
Works very well for VR4GenIII and VR4SR. Great power from those small amps. :thumb:
Thanks
Done! I think this thread will run a bit longer, then I'll summarize again.
best
d.
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I am using the Spectron2 hybrid mark2 on my Von Schweikert vr8's with great results. I heard this combination a long time ago at one of the stereo shows and was really impressed. My plan was tube amps on the top and the Spectron on the woofers, but as I updated the amp it became my amp of choice full range and allowed me to use my remote sense cables as my only speaker connections. I doubt this helps too many people here, as my speakers are so different than the newer speakers Albert is building. Still maybe worth a listen.
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I am using the Spectron2 hybrid mark2 on my Von Schweikert vr8's with great results. I heard this combination a long time ago at one of the stereo shows and was really impressed. My plan was tube amps on the top and the Spectron on the woofers, but as I updated the amp it became my amp of choice full range and allowed me to use my remote sense cables as my only speaker connections. I doubt this helps too many people here, as my speakers are so different than the newer speakers Albert is building. Still maybe worth a listen.
Hi (5) Harry
I think this is very helpful to us - I've heard Albert used Spectron in his work and I've rarely heard a bad word about the new Spectron amps so I suspect these will work well with newer Vons too. Hard to get info on the 8s...any pics?
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The first amp I used with my VR4JR mkI's were the Bryston. It had good control full range. But I found it leaning on the bright side. I used a tube rolled ARC LS16mkI preamp to warm it up a bit with very good results. I later downgraded from my Bryston as I later used this in the HT side of my system. Switched to the Rotel multichannel 1075 and 1066 amp. This matched well too with the Von Schweikert retail line, driving the LCRs, VR2 and VR4JR.
The Plinius integrated (forgot the model) also works well with the VR4JR. I lived with this for a couple of months. Another good integrated is the LSA integrated hybrid amps which even has a built in phono stage for TT users. Tried these with the VR4JRmkII. If I'm not mistaken, the DK designed LSA amp used the VR4JRmkI as its reference speaker. (Is this accurate Jack?) Excellent all-in-one amp for the money. I'd have to say, beats some separates out there costing twice its price.
On Single Ended Triode amps, the Sun Audio SV-2A3 works well with the DB99SE. Theed JE Labs 45 and JE Labs 300B also worked well with the the DB99SE.
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I used to use a pair of Pass Labs Aleph 30's to vertically biamp my VR4-JR's. I found that when the volume was up, the sound would "harden" somewhat and change in character. I have since changed to a pair of Aleph 100 monoblocs and have been much happier with the sound. More relaxed and effortless without strain or hardness while retaining the precision and dynamics of the 30's.
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There's a thread on the Channel Island Audio circle about using their mono amps with VSA - I thought you might find this comment form Dusty, the CIAudio chief, relevant:
"Albert Von Schweikert has used D-200 as his design reference for about 5 years (as well as many mastering labs). We also use VS loudspeakers as our reference, so they tend to work very well together."
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I had used an Aragon 8008 BB amp for two years with my VR4SRMKI's and was quite happy with it. That said, recently I changed to Nuforce Reference 9 VS SE mono blocks (biwired silver to woofer and copper to Tweet/mid) and they take things to a new level in many ways. Bass right off was incredibly improved, highs needed to be tamed with vibration control (Hyperion Magnetic floaters) and cabling (Kool Cable gold Silkworm from DAC to Pre. Once this taming was done the highs became very clear without glass or glare and soundstage became more holograpic and instruments more solid in space. Very happy with this combination with a Audio Horizons NOS tube preamp.
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Agree on the nod for Nuforce -- I've their new 8.5v2 stereo amp in the house and it's amazing what an amp this small can do with the Vons. I'll have to take a pic of this amp trussed up with my Virtual Dynamics cables, they nearly lift the little amp up into the air. I imagine the monos must be even better....review forthcoming.
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Dartzeel, Dartzeel, Dartzeel. In case you were wondering I really like and use the Dartzeel with my 9's :dance:
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VTL Siegfried in triode mode with a client's 9s is awesome too. Hey Disco, when are you gonna get your hands on Herve's new Mono Blocks :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted: :icon_twisted:
Where's Dimfer? I heard the TRODT 6c33 push pulls kick @ss with the 5 Anniversaries. Where are your impressions and pics man?
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Dartzeel mono blocks :drool: I want them :rock:
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I have VR5 Anniversary - on rotation are Lamm Reference 1.2 and Trodt 6c33c-b monoblocs. With the Lamm, you will enjoy total control and ease. The systems exudes timbral rightness - neither warm nor exceedingly lush. My Trodt 6c33c-b amps puts out approximately 25 in parallel SET mode and drives the VR5 to very loud level without a hint of glare. Obvious SET magic (with balls) - instruments are more delineated and you will hear a lot of inner detail. I hope I could say this without taking anything away from Lamm Ref 1.2 (I am ready to live with this pair for the rest of my life) - but in the early stage after I replaced the Lamm with Trodt, I was pleasantly surprised how much more detail the VR5 revealed. When I switch the Trodt to push/pull mode (approx 75 watts), you will notice more control in bass but the details in the mids and highs are somewhat diminished.
I really love how correct the Lamm Ref 1.2/VR5 does the vocals in recordings like Lizz Wright's The Orchard or Shelby Lynne's Just A Little Lovin'
I've heard most VD cables from the Judge (which never came to production I think),Genesis, Revelation etc extensively, but I am happily using VD Nite 3.0 - it was the highest model VD cable that's not cryoed when I purchased it 2 years ago. While the cryoed model are more detailed/dynamic, I find the Nite more musical and unfatiguing (it could be just me, of course) for long listening sessions. I think the VR5 & VD Nite 3.0 has good synergy.
The VR5 replaced an unknown but awesome pair (Accentus A101) in my main system. The A101 has a 150mm & 130 mm ribbon tweeter like that of VR9, so, you know what I mean.
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a256/dimfer/Audio/157.jpg)
Yes Jack, the VR5 & Trodt combo can kick some serious ass, I think.
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Hey dimfer, there you are! I was thinking of giving Trodt a boost at this years show by loaning them a pair of speakers and perhaps a source. I might even sponsor their room. They deserve some exposure and I'm feeling generous.
Delacroix,
If you can pry these amps from dimfer's warm living fingers, I submit it should be a candidate for review at affordableaudio.com. That is if affordable audio accepts reviews of commissioned rather than lot or mass produced products. I've heard these amps driving LSA2 towers and I can attest to their very high value (performance/price ratio). These amps use tubes in the driver stage that are readily available but not commonly used.
For the record I am in no way associated with Trodt audio. :)
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Delacroix,
If you can pry these amps from dimfer's warm living fingers, I submit it should be a candidate for review at affordableaudio.com. That is if affordable audio accepts reviews of commissioned rather than lot or mass produced products. I've heard these amps driving LSA2 towers and I can attest to their very high value (performance/price ratio). These amps use tubes in the driver stage that are readily available but not commonly used.
For the record I am in no way associated with Trodt audio. :)
Hi, I've never heard of these amps but they do sound and look interesting. I'd love to take them on for a review for A$$Audio but many times companies that build in small batches just don't have the capacity to send pieces out, there's a paying customer waiting impatiently. Certainly the magazine would welcome them, I'll see what I can find out.
Best
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Tube Newbie, how do you like the Memory Player? Stand alone transport or w/dac? Jack B
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Tube Newbie, how do you like the Memory Player? Stand alone transport or w/dac? Jack B
No turning back, I really like it. Transport only and waiting for the availability of Nova Physics 32 bit tube dac - which will available as a user installable upgrade kit for the transport owners. Currently using with MBL 5011.
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Hi, I've never heard of these amps but they do sound and look interesting. I'd love to take them on for a review for A$$Audio but many times companies that build in small batches just don't have the capacity to send pieces out, there's a paying customer waiting impatiently. Certainly the magazine would welcome them, I'll see what I can find out.
Best
hi Delacroix,
I would love to send my unit to you for review, maybe later in the year. I had been contacted by a fellow from the Canadian side of Stereo Mojo for review and personal audition, we'll see how it works out . Where are you located?
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Am in Austin TX...pm sent!
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Tube Newbie,, My MP is both transport and dac (I think it was the 2nd one built-I was an early convert after speaking with Clemont Perry from Stereo Times at CES a couple of yrs ago). Good things coming from Nova Physics that has/will set the audiophile world on fire. The MP is in a world all its own. Mated with any of Albert VS's designs and you've got the most accurate and faithful music playback system made. Jack
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yes Jack, the VR5, Lamm Ref 1.2 and NPMP is an awesome combination. I am really glad this is the path I chose when I did a system overhaul last summer.
Unfortunately, there are some NPMP non-believers, and most of the vocal ones never heard them. You are lucky to get one with the DAC so early, I'd been bugging Al Rohde & Mark Porzilli for the DAC for my unit, hopefully soon.
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This is my first post here. I just found about this forum which is great news.
I own a VR-4SR Mark II speakers and they are powered by a pair of NAGRA Pyramids Monoblocks Amplifiers (200 watts each). the speakers sound great but at high volumes the amplifiers clip and shut down (no distortion though). I believe the low impedance of the bass drivers is too much for the NAGRA amps to handle.
I am thinking of getting a more powerful amp/amps for the bass modules and use the NAGRAs for the midrange/tweeters. I just can't figure what kind of amp i need and what would be a good impedance match for the NAGRA. The pre-amp is an Audio Research LS-26.
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Welcome DR M. I also have the SR's and run them with a 16 watt Art Audio Carissa and a 50 watt Mark Levinson ML 11. I have had no problems like you describe. I don't know how loud you are actually playing your system but the bass unit in the SR is a smooth 4 ohm load which should not be a problem for a 200 watt amp. I have been wrong before and will be wrong again but I think the amp needs to be checked first. The Nagra amps are not cheep and should be able to power a 92db speaker to very loud levels. See what some of the other guys think.
Blessings, Bob
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This is my first post here. I just found about this forum which is great news.
I own a VR-4SR Mark II speakers and they are powered by a pair of NAGRA Pyramids Monoblocks Amplifiers (200 watts each). the speakers sound great but at high volumes the amplifiers clip and shut down (no distortion though). I believe the low impedance of the bass drivers is too much for the NAGRA amps to handle.
I am thinking of getting a more powerful amp/amps for the bass modules and use the NAGRAs for the midrange/tweeters. I just can't figure what kind of amp i need and what would be a good impedance match for the NAGRA. The pre-amp is an Audio Research LS-26.
Hello Dr. M..
If your amps are actually clipping you will have very audible distortion. A guitar amplifier which is designed to produce distortion and does so by pumping out square waves (clipped sine waves). Sounds like your Nagras have a protection circuit that's misbehaving. You might call the mfr. and see what he thinks. Good luck. By the way, I also own the VR4 SR MKIIs and drive them with MC501 monoblocks. Those little bones in my inner ears will fracture long before the 501s start to clip :rock:
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Maybe I used the word clipping wrong. The Nagra amps have a red light that goes on when the load is high and eventually shut down for protection. That is what I am experiencing when the loudness is above 100 dB at 3 meters. I originally got the 100 w/ch Nagra stereo power amp (PSA) and it was shutting down at high volumes. I did upgrade to the monoblocks and got similar results but at a higher volume. I did exchange one of the Nagara monoblocks just to make sure it was not defective but still get the same thing.
So the Nagra amp can drive the VS-VR4S Mark II to loud levels to a limit. They then shut down for protection (before any distortion is heard). Maybe I am driving the amps too much. I know my speakers are rated up to 500 watts. I heard these speakers need very powerful amps to shine. For normal to high listening volume, I have no problems.
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This is my first post here. I just found about this forum which is great news.
I own a VR-4SR Mark II speakers and they are powered by a pair of NAGRA Pyramids Monoblocks Amplifiers (200 watts each). the speakers sound great but at high volumes the amplifiers clip and shut down (no distortion though). I believe the low impedance of the bass drivers is too much for the NAGRA amps to handle.
I am thinking of getting a more powerful amp/amps for the bass modules and use the NAGRAs for the midrange/tweeters. I just can't figure what kind of amp i need and what would be a good impedance match for the NAGRA. The pre-amp is an Audio Research LS-26.
Hi Dr.M,
The Nagras should be able to drive anything louder than anybody would actually want including loudspeakers that dip briefly below 2 ohms which your SRs do not. The most common problems between tube preamps and solid state amps in general are potential impedance mismatches. This may not be your problem but I have a nagging feeling that there might be an impedance mismatch between your LS-26 which has an output impedance of 700ohms (XLR) and your Nagra which has a 100kohm input impedance. Out of curiosity, are you running balanced or single -ended? If you are running balanced then there is a chance you are experiencing a mismatch. The single ended outputs rated at 350ohms should be a better match. I haven't used Nagra's high-fi gear but have worked countless hours with Nagra recorders. Their inputs are "picky" for lack of a better word.
As far as I know the Nagra's protection circuit is activated when there is DC leakage (could be a bad tube or tubes are not yet in a state of thermal stability) or when they are running too hot (overdriven either by an input signal too hot or too heavy a speaker load). There are some things you might want to verify. I'll put it in a list just so it's neater.
1. The Nagra is internally switchable between 1v and 2v inputs. If you listen primarily to Digital then 2V should be the default setting.
2. The ARC LS-26 has adjustable Gain settings from 6db to the mid twenties. If you're maxed out or close to maxed out it could make your amp's input stage clip especially if your amps are set at 1V. You might want to throttle back the gain before cranking them back up. Never mind if the volume numerical display will show a much higher number than you're accustomed to since it is just a relative number. For as long as there's no distortion you're golden.
3. Try the single ended inputs in case the problem is in the impedance matching which could also clip the amp's input stage.
4. Wait at least 45 minutes before cranking the preamp to avoid the risk or DC leakage due to thermal instability.
5. It could also be a thermal problem. Your amps might be better off in a cooler location (away from heaters) or in spots with better ventilation.
6. I saved this for last. According to friends that design amplifiers, extending bass lower than 20Hz in amplifiers takes a power penalty. In this case the amps might really find the speakers a difficult load as you suspect.
In the end If you have another preamp around (preferably a solid state one) you might want to check if the amps protect at the same SPL. If they do then we can rule out the preamp as the problem. If they don't then we might have found the right starting point and run through Nos 1 to 4.
Good Luck!
JackD
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Hi JackD
Thanks for the detailed response.
I am using XLR connection from the ARC LS-26 to the Nagra (Nordost Tyr)
The Nagras sensibility is set at 1 v
The LS-26 gain is set at Hi for CD (Ayre C-5xe, XLR, Nordost Heimdall) and Low for phono (ARC PH7, RCA, Nordost Heimdall)
I don't think I have any thermal issues. The amps never run hot.
The Nagras will shut down if 1) Clipping occurs where the current on the output is more than 12A peak or if the tension is above 60 V peak or 2) In case of a short-circuit on the speaker connections (1 second) or 3) DC protection when a DC component > than +/- 2.5 V appears on the output of the Nagra Pyramid. The Nagra has also a thermal protection circuit.
So one of the above is occuring. I suspect number 1 above.
I'll experiment with different loads and wires (XLR vs single ended).
Thanks again.
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This is my first post here. I just found about this forum which is great news.
I own a VR-4SR Mark II speakers and they are powered by a pair of NAGRA Pyramids Monoblocks Amplifiers (200 watts each). the speakers sound great but at high volumes the amplifiers clip and shut down (no distortion though). I believe the low impedance of the bass drivers is too much for the NAGRA amps to handle.
I am thinking of getting a more powerful amp/amps for the bass modules and use the NAGRAs for the midrange/tweeters. I just can't figure what kind of amp i need and what would be a good impedance match for the NAGRA. The pre-amp is an Audio Research LS-26.
Hi Dr.M,
The Nagras should be able to drive anything louder than anybody would actually want including loudspeakers that dip briefly below 2 ohms which your SRs do not. The most common problems between tube preamps and solid state amps in general are potential impedance mismatches. This may not be your problem but I have a nagging feeling that there might be an impedance mismatch between your LS-26 which has an output impedance of 700ohms (XLR) and your Nagra which has a 100kohm input impedance. Out of curiosity, are you running balanced or single -ended? If you are running balanced then there is a chance you are experiencing a mismatch. The single ended outputs rated at 350ohms should be a better match. I haven't used Nagra's high-fi gear but have worked countless hours with Nagra recorders. Their inputs are "picky" for lack of a better word.
As far as I know the Nagra's protection circuit is activated when there is DC leakage (could be a bad tube or tubes are not yet in a state of thermal stability) or when they are running too hot (overdriven either by an input signal too hot or too heavy a speaker load). There are some things you might want to verify. I'll put it in a list just so it's neater.
1. The Nagra is internally switchable between 1v and 2v inputs. If you listen primarily to Digital then 2V should be the default setting.
2. The ARC LS-26 has adjustable Gain settings from 6db to the mid twenties. If you're maxed out or close to maxed out it could make your amp's input stage clip especially if your amps are set at 1V. You might want to throttle back the gain before cranking them back up. Never mind if the volume numerical display will show a much higher number than you're accustomed to since it is just a relative number. For as long as there's no distortion you're golden.
3. Try the single ended inputs in case the problem is in the impedance matching which could also clip the amp's input stage.
4. Wait at least 45 minutes before cranking the preamp to avoid the risk or DC leakage due to thermal instability.
5. It could also be a thermal problem. Your amps might be better off in a cooler location (away from heaters) or in spots with better ventilation.
6. I saved this for last. According to friends that design amplifiers, extending bass lower than 20Hz in amplifiers takes a power penalty. In this case the amps might really find the speakers a difficult load as you suspect.
In the end If you have another preamp around (preferably a solid state one) you might want to check if the amps protect at the same SPL. If they do then we can rule out the preamp as the problem. If they don't then we might have found the right starting point and run through Nos 1 to 4.
Good Luck!
JackD
Well done Jack. Not a bad synopsis for a senator. :bowdown: :rotflmao:
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I'm perfectly happy in the lower house Gavin, seems you want to give me a promotion! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Dr. M, I hope switching to 2V does the trick!
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I'm perfectly happy in the lower house Gavin, seems you want to give me a promotion! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Dr. M, I hope switching to 2V does the trick!
So who do I contact to get that promotion moving? I'm betting you are one of only a handful of congressmen who own VSA/LAMM.:thankyou:
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After many amps on my Vr-8's i found the Rogue 120 Mono's (tube) to be outstanding to my ears and can be had for around 1K a set.
Read Aurthur Salvadores website about them, Liked them almost as much as the reference one canarys
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I'm perfectly happy in the lower house Gavin, seems you want to give me a promotion! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Dr. M, I hope switching to 2V does the trick!
So who do I contact to get that promotion moving? I'm betting you are one of only a handful of congressmen who own VSA/LAMM.:thankyou:
I'm the only one. My colleagues who are into Hi-Fi are mostly into vintage gear. Vintage Marantz tube amps I find particularly good matches with VSA speakers.
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Just added a 2nd VAC 300.1 to help drive my VR-7s in monoblock configuration. I'm amazed - totally new system with the additional power - definitely a 1 + 1 = 3 moment! Just got a lot closer to "as good as it gets", IMO.
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I am new to VS...i just bought a pair of unifield 3s to conquer a small square room which had been undefeated in the past. They have claimed victory with ease!! and I am under 100 hours in. I have a Mac 252 (ss) with a Mac c2300 tube pre. The Macs and VS get along quite well...i can listen for hours....i am glad to see there are many fellow Mac/VS folks out there. I am intrigued by the utilization of bi-amping with tubes on the highs and solid on the lows. excuse my ignorance.... How can the gains be matched with such a set-up?
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Hi thebearded1
Nice setup you have :thumb:
Mac and VSA is a great combination. Have been tested with single MC275 on top and MC252 on botton with great result on my speakers. Haven't had any problem with the sound regarding the gains between the amps, but I do understand your question. There is a thread here where Albert explains the issue.
Currently I am running in my system active crossover dbx223xl both on ss and the tube and here I can adjust the gain a little bit. Had to give it a try and must say that am very pleased with it.
Happy listening to your unifields. :drool:
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I am new to VS...i just bought a pair of unifield 3s to conquer a small square room which had been undefeated in the past. They have claimed victory with ease!! and I am under 100 hours in. I have a Mac 252 (ss) with a Mac c2300 tube pre. The Macs and VS get along quite well...i can listen for hours....i am glad to see there are many fellow Mac/VS folks out there. I am intrigued by the utilization of bi-amping with tubes on the highs and solid on the lows. excuse my ignorance.... How can the gains be matched with such a set-up?
Hi -- start here for AVS's input on biamping and gain matching:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59529.0
And welcome to the forum!!!
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Thank you. I will check out that link. I should also thank Disco (thanks Scott) from Plano for advising me and selling me my Unifield 3s. I have to say, if it wasn't for audiogon, there is no way I would ever have bought von schweikerts and there is no way I would have bought speakers from a dealer in Texas (I am on the east coast). Cheers!
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Krell amps anyone?
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Has anyone had experience using the Pass xa series with the vr5's or vr4's?? Thanks
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I'm running a VK75SE with my VR5 Annies.....They sound awesome, but I do wonder what a good solid state amp would sound like...or biamping with solid state on the bottom and VK75SE on the top.
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My Annies don't sound half bad with the MC501 monoblocks :thumb:
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Since I last posted on this thread, I've added a pair of Spectron Musician 3 Mk2 monos with Bybee upgrades to my set up with VR5SE's -- with excellent results. Put it this way, I no longer care to think about power amps. Am open to offers on my BAT VK500 now, it's finally been bettered.
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I may have mentioned this amp already, but due to a very very extended loan by the most generous Ampdesigner333 (aka Tommy) I wanted to add another :thumb: for the Digital Amp Co.'s products.
I have on loan a DAC Cherry Plus and I continue to be impressed with this amp every day.
It's a Class D and I am conciously listening for any sign of harshness or unpleasantness on the treble and I hear none. More telling is that I have been using a SS preamp lately (old Forte Model 40) and there is nothing in the DAC amps that needs taming w/ tubes. Not that my VAC pre doesn't sound better, but even with a current-retail less than $300 SS pre, the amp sounds great.
Imaging precision is breathtaking. Bass extremely well controlled and extended blah blah all that good stuff. I think we are familiar with the concept of "Control" when we are talking bass performance, but I hear "Control" applied equally across the spectum with this thing. I think that's where the creepy-good imaging comes from. (And not just me - I've heard things coming from behind me (2-ch system) where both dogs jump up and run across the house wondering WTF was that)
A buddy was over and couldn't believe how good the VSRs sounded w/ the Forte. He looked at me and said "It's the amp, isn't it" "Yup"
Also the cool-running has been a big asset this summer. My VAC amp is sitting in the corner and I haven't hooked it up once since the Cherry+ has been here.
I'd love to hear it vs. the Spectrons, as it handily outperformed the UcD and ICE amps I've heard w/ these speakers in this room.
I got some Reality speaker cables and systen seems happiest w/ them on the bottom and the Analysis Plus Oval 9 on the top. Realities were a bit foreward on top relative to the AP; AP had a bit more tube-ish depth than the Realities on top. Reality bass starts and stops faster than the AP, to my ears.
Tommy definitely kicks the other 332 Ampdesigner's butts.
I want to add the disclaimer that I'd consider Tommy a friend (although he hates my guts (kidding)) but there have been several other reports of success w/ the DAC products lately that mirror my own experience. (So I guess that means a bunch of us are deaf :lol:)
-Mike
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I'm running a VK75SE with my VR5 Annies.....They sound awesome, but I do wonder what a good solid state amp would sound like...or biamping with solid state on the bottom and VK75SE on the top.
I ran VK-150s with my 5s for a long time and they are now driving a pair of SRs quite happily. If you want the VK-75/150 sound on the mids and highs and Levinson like bass (I actually did bi-amp :icon_twisted: ) the amp to get is the 220wpc Lamm M2.2. No sacrifices there. It may cost as much as a pair of VK-150s plus a ML No.431 combined but it actually spanks the duo and takes up as much space as the VK-150s alone. These are my reference amps for my VR-9SEs.
Jadis JA-200s may be legendary and do sound great with SRs but the VK-150s showed how aged the JA-200s had become.
For VR-4jrs I'm partial to 3 series Mark Levinson amplifiers. The No. 332 and the 335 that replaced them, were good matches especially with tubed DACs. These go for peanuts on the used market these days.
In smaller rooms I've liked CJ's MV55 and MV60 amps with Jrs.
ARC Ref200 amps with SR Mk.IIs are a good match as well. Careful cable matching is a must though. MIT MA cables are smack on here.
For Ice amps the Jeff Rowland 501s make great music with SR Mk.2s with Kubala Sosna Fascination speaker cables.
For integrated amps I've yet to find one that can get tube magic and powerhouse slam the way the LSA/DK Design integrated does at it's price point. In the price no object integrated arena, I'd say the VAC Phi Beta (do they still make this?) and the Karan would be my likely candidates.
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I may have mentioned this amp already, but due to a very very extended loan by the most generous Ampdesigner333 (aka Tommy) I wanted to add another :thumb: for the Digital Amp Co.'s products.
I have on loan a DAC Cherry Plus and I continue to be impressed with this amp every day.
It's a Class D and I am conciously listening for any sign of harshness or unpleasantness on the treble and I hear none. More telling is that I have been using a SS preamp lately (old Forte Model 40) and there is nothing in the DAC amps that needs taming w/ tubes. Not that my VAC pre doesn't sound better, but even with a current-retail less than $300 SS pre, the amp sounds great.
Imaging precision is breathtaking. Bass extremely well controlled and extended blah blah all that good stuff. I think we are familiar with the concept of "Control" when we are talking bass performance, but I hear "Control" applied equally across the spectum with this thing. I think that's where the creepy-good imaging comes from. (And not just me - I've heard things coming from behind me (2-ch system) where both dogs jump up and run across the house wondering WTF was that)
A buddy was over and couldn't believe how good the VSRs sounded w/ the Forte. He looked at me and said "It's the amp, isn't it" "Yup"
Also the cool-running has been a big asset this summer. My VAC amp is sitting in the corner and I haven't hooked it up once since the Cherry+ has been here.
I'd love to hear it vs. the Spectrons, as it handily outperformed the UcD and ICE amps I've heard w/ these speakers in this room.
I got some Reality speaker cables and systen seems happiest w/ them on the bottom and the Analysis Plus Oval 9 on the top. Realities were a bit foreward on top relative to the AP; AP had a bit more tube-ish depth than the Realities on top. Reality bass starts and stops faster than the AP, to my ears.
Tommy definitely kicks the other 332 Ampdesigner's butts.
I want to add the disclaimer that I'd consider Tommy a friend (although he hates my guts (kidding)) but there have been several other reports of success w/ the DAC products lately that mirror my own experience. (So I guess that means a bunch of us are deaf :lol:)
-Mike
Mike,
Thanks for your kind post. I'd like to add that I was equally impressed with the DAC4800A on your speakers, which are some of the best I've heard.
The Cherry jr, which is due out any day now, is an improvement on the DAC4800A. It looks like a Cherry amp from the outside and has our new motherboard with better speaker connectors and an improved chassis (16 gauge steel, built like a tank).
As many of you know, our website has been down for a while, but the new one is due out soon --- possibly by the end of the week. For info, email DACSales@DigitalAmp.com. Thanks again.
Best Regards,
Tommy
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I have on loan a DAC Cherry Plus and I continue to be impressed with this amp every day.
My VAC amp is sitting in the corner and I haven't hooked it up once since the Cherry+ has been here.
I'd love to hear it vs. the Spectrons as it handily outperformed the UcD and ICE amps I've heard w/ these speakers in this room.
than the AP, to my ears.
---
-Mike
[Apologies Mike for edits in your original post in the interest of saving space]
Well, I'd be happy to do a comparison driving my VR5SEs if we could get one of these in for review in Affordable Audio! I've reviewed Wyred4Sound and Nuforce offerings over the last year or so and in my view the Spectrons sound better than both but the DAC products seem to offer something different. Enquiring minds want to know just how good these amps are...
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My vr 35s are powered by a simaudio w7 mated to a cj act 2.2 preamp with synergistic tesla wiring. because it is a wood frame house i have the rear of the speakers out 45" and between 34 and 29 inches from tweeter to sidewall-still working on it... i am wondering if a cj et250s might be a little more magical?? the sim has been very nice for both female vocals and rock/blues.
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I just scrolled/read through this entire thread and see one glaring omission... :o
What does The Master himself, Albert have to say about which amp/pre-amp combo's (or maybe even an integrated?) provide the best system synergy with all of his VSA progeny?
C'mon Albert, give us your "A" list... or even better, a price bracketed list for different budgets! :thumb:
SN
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I've been using a bi-amp combo of the Lamm Hybrids (Lamm M1.2 Reference up top and M2.2 for bass with Mullard CV2492s) on the VR-9s. This combination is a powerhouse. The combo is liquid with tight punchy bass and shows off VSA's transient capabilities. The 2.2 went on loan so now I'm using the tubed Lamm ML1.1 up top and the M1.2s got assigned to bass module duties. I retubed the inputs to Telefunken red tip ecc83s on the ML1.1 and Telefunken 6922 cca red tips for the M1.2 References. The loss of more than a third of the power shrunk the soundstage and made bass transients in particular softer. You don't feel the bass pressure penetrate all the way to your bones anymore.
While shrunk down the presentation has become more intimate. The wispiness of the fine details makes for a more "surreal" soundscape as opposed to the twin hybrid's "real" and more like a fantasy version. Relative scaling of instruments and placement I would say are an improvement. On the Alain-Poulanc works for Pipe Organ LP (Proprius) for instance where with the hybrids stage height went above the ceilings and size was shock and awe large, with this combo the whole stage was shrunk to just a bit larger than floor to ceiling (10ft) and wall to wall (20ft) with a gain in depth of what seems to be about 5 feet. The surreal part is how easy it seems to imagine yourself navigating and picking out musical threads within the soundscape.
The downside is that my Phonostage, the Lamm LP2 works best with cartridges in the .5mV range and my carts are in the .2mV range. With all the extra juice of the original combo the lack of Gain was never an issue. Now I have to crank the preamp and even then while I can get digital to ball busting levels my analog won't. I borrowed a Dynavector Head Amp and a modded Cotter yesterday and will be playing around with them today.
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Jack, JV should consider using you as a ghost writer. I might even start reading his reviews, with emphasis on might. :lol:
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I dunno Gavin, I'm not big on having a new "Best" all the time. People will notice for sure! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Besides, even as a kid I preferred "Show" more than "Tell". I wish you could find your way over here sometime, and all our VSA friends too. Tough being half way around the world, not that the VSA guys over here aren't great company. We're a fun crew! Fair warning though, if you do find your way over be prepared for some serious eating more than listening! :thumb: :thumb::thumb:
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It's a very large hop, skip and jump to the Philippines from Indiana unfortunately. Otherwise, I might take up residence in that new listening room of yours. Heck, once over there I might even be persuaded to visit your brother's man cave. Seriously though Jack, don't think for a minute I wouldn't love the visit. By the way, one of our favorite waiters served us lunch today and he is from the Philippines. He was adopted by a local dermatologist when he was young...he's 35 now. A really good guy. I mentioned my fellow audio buddy to him. And now you know the rest of the story (PH) :D
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Anyone ever hear the Red Wine amps with the Vons? I asked over on the Red Wine circle a while back and did not get any feedback other than comments indicating there would be no problem given the specs, but I am really interested in hearing from people who have heard this for themselves.
Im using red wine isabella hpv + mini darios 7308 tube with vsa U3, plinius cd 101+oval 2 power cord and W4S st1000 + telos taiwan gold pwr cords, AP oval 8 biwire spkr. Also using coulpure and TAOC isolationpads with their spikes..
red wine off the grids with this tube is the most profound change for me. try it.
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I've always thought about the RedWine stuff for the mid/tweeter cabinet w/ traditional SS for the bass. And I think it's available (standard, maybe) w/ a quality attenuator to make biamping a snap.This is definitely worth a try for somebody. -Mike
my room is 5x6metre. I removed most of the dalcron off vsa U3.
The bass is outstanding, defined without boom, no room treatment. The key is 2 tier platform isolation on W4S and CDP, nothing under red wine preamp. red wine preamp no transformer, no need to isolate. Adjust tremendously n time to get the bass right without affecting highs n mids. Spike on spike plate, spike below on taoc 6 layer platform, above taoc is dh cones sharp side face down, cdp same config except using copulare cone below cdp to emphasis airness.
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i tried the above many times to achieve no loss of dyamics, defined bass and gd highs.
in between , as anyone tried ayre mx-r on VSA speakers? dealer is offering home audition.. veri exciting..
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I've been using Spectron monoblocks on VR5-Anni's. Preamp is an Audio Research REF-3. The Spectron monoblocks are a big step up from a single stereo Spectron. Using them as monoblocks has the benefit of wider bandwidth (to 100k) and a lower noise floor (a benefit of common mode noise rejection in the monoblock mode). The Spectrons have always been very neutral on the VR5's, but after replacing my Shunyata Python power cords with the Masterbuilt cables (the top of the line versions), the Spectrons were transformed. See my comments on the "VSA Masterbuilt cables evaluation" thread. Top-to-bottom integration and coherency are exceptional. A few seconds of piano music will show this off-- with the Masterbuilt power cords, speaker cables, and interconnects the coherency is amazing. I'm about to try a pair of Kronzillas, possibly ending up biamping with the Spectrons on the bottom and Kronzillas on the top.
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That's quite a set up you have there kernel but I'll have to see some pictures in order to believe you actually own all that stuff :thumb: :lol:
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http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=83244.30
pic 6 months back. the lighternote accentuntor has been replaced by red wine preamp
and i added the taoc platforms , spikes and cones. too lazy to take pic.
typically in asia, we get better pricing due to lower taxes and hard bargaining, its a small community here.
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I am using a KR Kronzilla SD with 22 Watts for the mid and high and a Krell FPB 600 for the woofers on my VS VR4 Gen III. In the beginning it sounded crap :duh:, because the Krell hugely overpowered :nono: the Kronzilla :duh:. Now I have a balanced potmeter :o between the AR pre and the Krell, which works perfectly :roll:. I have a clean and powerful bass and wonderful high and mid, thanks to the KR :thumb:.
I have tried both amplifiers with the entire system, but the KR evidently lacked the power for the bass :icon_lol: and the Krell missed the musical element in the mid and high :thumb:, very focussed, but not very musical.
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I'm back with the all hybrid set-up. Woohooo! It was astringent at first but the entry of the VSA Signature PCs along with my electrician balancing the lines as close as possible to ideal sorted all of that out really quickly. A lot of the spatial congestion turned out to be lines noise and the PCs filtered out what appears to have been a lot of hash. I wouldn't describe it as lifting a veil or anything like that. If anything it was more like the difference in visibility between snorkeling in clear and not so clear water. The shapes and the colors are the same but there's so much random stuff floating around between them with uncleaned power. Dang the stuff that becomes noticeable with a quiet room. These quiet rooms can be both blessings and curses I tell 'ya. This was never much of an issue in my old, noisier place.
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Jack you are tugging at my heart strings....a quiet room...such a problem with which to be saddled :lol:
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I'm running an EDGE 10.1nl with Harmonic Technology Magic woofer/tweeter speaker cables and IC's throughout. My sources are a VPI Scoutmaster with a 10.5 arm and a Zyx Airy3 silver SB cart, and a J River served PS Audio PerfectWave DAC/Bridge for a balanced digital front end. Pre amp is a Pass XP-20, phono is a Pass XP-15. VSA VR SrIV's and a pair-o VSA S-1 subs. :lol: Shi*s-n-giggles here!
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I have the VSA VR-7 HSE and am using the BAT VK-75SE with good results.
Maybe not as tight on the bottom end as some high powered SS amps.. But the mids and highs are smooth and well defined.. and the bass is surprisingly
good.. The amp also acts as a room heater in the winter :o
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For VR5 Anni, currently using bi-amp configuration:
Octave V70SE (German intergrated amp - around 55W@8 ohms) driving the M/T module.
Wyred4 Sound STI1000 (500W) driving Woofer module.
Superb sounding :angel:
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I have the Unifield 3s.
Powered by:
Joule Electra VZN160 transformerless, 160 watt tube amplifiers.
Joule Electra LME300 line stage preamp.
Joule Electra OPS4 phono stage preamp.
The sound of the music in general is very good with exceptional imaging, separation and sound stage. The most impressive result of this combination is the sound of live music. The texture of the voices and stringed instruments have a realism, depth and emotion that I have not experienced before. I can feel the emotion, rawness and ragged edge of Lucinda William's voice suspended around me. Music that can be listened to for hours with out fatigue.
I'm working my way towards a new pair of VR9s.
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I have been a long time owner of Von Schweikert speakers. I have owned the VR4 JRs for 6 years and now currently own the VR5 HSEs. These were driven with a Counterpoint SA220 amp and I am now currently using a Moscode 402AU with mundorf and vishay modifications. Pairing this amp with 6H30EB-DR tubes provides a fantastive listening experience. I wanted sufficient bass authority that here-to-fore could only be achieved with solid state, but did not care for the dryness of the presentation. Going straigt tube either was a little tubey sounding or insufficient power. By using the hybrid Mosocde402AU 200wpc provides a thrilling listening experience especially with the VR5 HSE which is a significant improvement to the VR4 JRs. I have been in an audiophile for 45 years and have owned many pieces of equipment. I cannot say enough about the pairing of the Von Schweikerts with the MOSCODE 402AU amp. I previously owned the 401HR and there is a night and day difference in these amps. The speakers are shotgun wired.
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currently using Trodt GM70 to drive the VR5 Anniversary.
60 watts of parallel single ended triode bliss and Von Schweikert speakers gives you a very dynamic sound with a lot of heft.
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New member group. I've had VRs for about 15 years now; first pair was VR-4 silver series in custom stained cabinets. They are currently in CA being rebuilt with new drivers, crossovers, wiring etc. Can't wait to get them back.
I've always run my VRs with a pair of Brystons set for high-current output. In my last three places there was plenty of power, but in my new house, the room has a vaulted ceiling so I may have to get some bigger amps.
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unifield 3
biamped using 4 channels of arcam p7
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Von Schweikert VR4-JR
Powered by:
CRIMSON 640D
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VR-7SE Mk 2
VAC Statement 450 monos... :thumb:
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I'll see your VACs Harve and raise you...
MC501 monoblocks :icon_lol:
Just kidding. No doubt the VACs are at the very top of the amplifier food chain :thumb: (but I sure love my MACs)
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As well you should Gavin - those 501s are great amps!
With the VACs and my upgraded 7's breaking in at about 12 hrs/nite, every day gets a bit closer to audio nirvana....
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Which amp works better? Really? This ? is really, subjective because EVERYONE AND EVERYBODY has a different style, different taste etc. I guess my point will be that whatever sounds "BEST" to your ears is whats best for your VSA. But of course that you can't go wrong w a Tube Amp but thats just my opinion. I have a Peachtree Audio Idecco connected to my VR2's, along with Signal Audio Q10 speaker wires, signal audio power cord and I am "EXTREMELY" happy w the results. But again, thats just my taste and my style and budget... :thumb: :wink:
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This week I will be comparing a Rogue Stereo 90 with a First Watt M2 on my VR-4 Gen IIs. I will report. Ack in my findings. This is in a 13x15 room so not too concerned about the M2's lower power
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This week I will be comparing a Rogue Stereo 90 with a First Watt M2 on my VR-4 Gen IIs. I will report. Ack in my findings. This is in a 13x15 room so not too concerned about the M2's lower power
Roscoe,
This is an old thread, but we seem to show up in the same places! So far we have the Townshend Rock 7 and VSA speakers in common, although mine are Unifield 3s.
I find the synergy between my VAC Phi 200 amp and the U3s to be just magic! Anyone else out there running VAC amps into VSA speakers?
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Harve (fplanner) used to use 300.1s with his VR-7s but has now moved up to 450s. Jimmy uses 450s with his 11s but they are now with Kevin being fitted with the IQ circuitry. Rodney (Holli88) has VACs driving his VR-9 Mk2s. Albert himself has a PHI integrated. :)
I have a Rock 7 w/Excalibur arm and ZYX Airy 3 S :) I'm currently running my Unifield 3s with KR Audio Kronzilla DX Mk2s.
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A friend of mine is looking to build a system around Unifield-2 speakers. Any suggestions for a modestly priced integrated amplifier, say under $2k? The Oppo-105 is going to be the media player.
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:D VAC 450's with 7's ,,,,, :duh: good lord almighty.... can i come over.... i will bring the wine .. :thumb: :D
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Roscoe,
This is an old thread, but we seem to show up in the same places! So far we have the Townshend Rock 7 and VSA speakers in common, although mine are Unifield 3s.
Hi Alonski,
Yes we are swimming in the same waters.
I realize that I never reported back here on the FirstWatt M2 in my system compared to the Rogue. In a nutshell I preferred the Rogue. The M2 was a bit too soft and laid back with the VR-4s. Which apparently is how the amp was voiced by Pass. In general, the VR-4s can be a tad more laid back than I prefer, so I tend to try to get an amp and other associated equipment that will bring the sound a touch more forward.
Right now the VR-4s are sounding great with a very inexpensive kit from Class D Audio (the CDA-254, http://classdaudio.com/cda-254-audio-amplifier-125w-x-2-8-ohm-250w-x-2-4-ohm.html) that is my back up amp. Because the Rogue Stereo 90 is heading back to Rogue for an upgrade to Super Magnum status. But damn are folks surprised when I reveal what is driving these speakers now. Wow.
Kernelbob, I'd look at a Rogue tube integrated (Magnum version if possible). Really like the Rogue VSA combo. If your buddy is up for tubes that is.
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Roscoe,
Thanks for the suggestion on the Rogue. I've never heard Rogue amps, but they have a great reputation. I'll pass it along. My friend isn't a fan of exposed tubes, but I sure am (Kronzillas). Thanks.
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While not always pictured with a tube cage, IIRC a tube cage is optional for all models.
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Bob I'd give the Mystere serious consideration:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/myst232re-ia21-integrated-amplifier (http://www.stereophile.com/content/myst232re-ia21-integrated-amplifier)
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A friend of mine is looking to build a system around Unifield-2 speakers. Any suggestions for a modestly priced integrated amplifier, say under $2k? The Oppo-105 is going to be the media player.
Oppo can successfully drive many power amps directly.
Emotiva has several of them at s reasonable price(XPA-1L 35 watts class A + up to 500 class A/B fully balanced monoblock for $699), Red Dragon Audio, Parasound and many others will be in your rsnge.
If you are not afraid of some relstively simple asdembly Ncore 400 DIY monoblocks could be a very good choice also.
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I Love VS VR1s and I have the centre to match. I am using an ARCAM P1000 with a Nordost power cable and Nordost Hemdall 2 speaker wire to drive my VR1s. I would love to purchase a used set of VR4 Jrs one day. I can not afford new ones. :cry:
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Just switched to two pairs of Lamm M2.2s for VR-9 SE Mk2s in preparation for the coming of 11s later this year. The MT pair is fitted with Amperex JAN 7308s.
WOWZA!
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My 450's are currently on their way to Kevin as well. It is eerily quiet in my house - wish there was a way to fast forward a few weeks.... :D Hopefully they are back well before RMAF.... :o
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Haven't heard Jim's IQs yet but last we spoke he was VERY happy! You're in for a treat Harve.
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Just switched to two pairs of Lamm M2.2s for VR-9 SE Mk2s in preparation for the coming of 11s later this year. The MT pair is fitted with Amperex JAN 7308s.
WOWZA!
Jack, hi. I've always been curious. What is that white panel centered on your wall? Is that a painting or a panel or what? Thank you. And get a better system, Jack, what's wrong with you! That's me being stupid.
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:lol: :lol: :lol:
It's a painting Jim. Oil on wood. It is angled upwards directing reflections towards the ceiling diffusers that cover the front 2/3s of the room. The painting had to be sufficiently large so one can't notice the angle unless you look at it from the side. The rear third of the room has ceiling bass traps.
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I'd say Jack and Harve are serious about this hobby...yikes. I feel like a pauper :duh:
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He of Annies and big blue meters feels like a pauper? :P :P :P
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A wise man once said "everything is relative"...although he may have been talking about Kentucky :duh:
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With water in the basement I'll be doing Unifield 3s while all the repairs are being made. The tables have been turned Gavin!
Darn these babies do so many things right.
Biggest discovery is the matching with the KR VA 910 1/2 sized mono blocks. This is a match made in heaven. Oodles of nuance and inner detail and gobs of headroom to go with it.
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Proving once again that there are many paths to audio nirvana and some that aren't so $$ intensive. I have a pair of monitors Albert built for me driven by an Emotiva preamp and my old trusty DH200. It's my pc based system and I listen to FLAC files with FUBAR--USB to Cambridge DAC Magic 100. It sounds WAY better than it has any right to. I won't mention how little I have invested but this diminutive system produces sonics that are way up there :thumb: :thumb:
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Proving once again that there are many paths to audio nirvana and some that aren't so $$ intensive. I have a pair of monitors Albert built for me driven by an Emotiva preamp and my old trusty DH200. It's my pc based system and I listen to FLAC files with FUBAR--USB to Cambridge DAC Magic 100. It sounds WAY better than it has any right to. I won't mention how little I have invested but this diminutive system produces sonics that are way up there :thumb: :thumb:
Yup, barring a real mismatch, IME speakers always make the biggest difference.
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Pardon my stupidity but what are IME speakers?
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IME = In My Experience
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IME = In My Experience
Yup.
And there are these other favorites:
IMO = In My Opioon
IMHO = In My Humble Opinion
IIRC = If I Recall Correctly
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es -I think cheap and sweet is great. I built my brother a system with VR1's that is very nice - though he does like to come over and hear my VR5 Anni MK2s.
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Yup.
And there are these other favorites:
IMO = In My Opioon
IMHO = In My Humble Opinion
IIRC = If I Recall Correctly
Thanks for the acronym lesson roscoe...already was familiar with those puppies but IME was a new one on me...ISHKB
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I Should Have Kebobs for Breakfast? :o :lol:
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..close Jack but no cigar. Care to try again? :lol:
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gloriously driving my VR-33's with a refurbed Marantz 8B. Man cave is 16 x 25 and the 33's loves tubes and vinyl.
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My 2012 modded VR-4 Gen.III's are LOVING the Moscode 600 amp and Dodd battery powered Pre-amp I have.
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The Valvet 3.5A Monos are doing extremely well with VSA's VR22s
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I've had good luck with VTL amps driving VSA speakers - started out with MB300 monoblocks driving my VR4-gen2s and then moved to the MB450III monoblocks when I upgraded these to VR44 (passive). Had to bump up the feedback to medium-high on the MB450s but they still sound very open and natural (not euphonic at all).
I think the MB450s will do even better with my new VR55 aktives when they arrive as they won't have to drive the woofers - should be able to reduce the feedback to medium-low or I'm hoping even to the low setting. These amps really open up with low feedback - huge air around instruments and massive soundstage! :thumb:
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Hi: New to VSA and trying to assemble a new high end system - anyone have any experience with Parasound JC1's and VSA speakers they'd be willing to share? thx,
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so no responses to that one.....
How about either Pass or Constellation - anybody using either of those and willing to share?
thx,
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Just heard the new VR55 with Constellation gear (which VSA also used at the best in Show RAF) and it sounded wonderful to me - quiet, clear, detailed and fully controlling the bass via the active woofer system of the 55
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Shameless plug, and the question....
I know there are a few "big Cherry" owners with VSAs, but maybe we can hear from some Maraschino owners!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=104651)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=89572)
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Proving once again that there are many paths to audio nirvana and some that aren't so $$ intensive. I have a pair of monitors Albert built for me driven by an Emotiva preamp and my old trusty DH200. It's my pc based system and I listen to FLAC files with FUBAR--USB to Cambridge DAC Magic 100. It sounds WAY better than it has any right to. I won't mention how little I have invested but this diminutive system produces sonics that are way up there :thumb: :thumb:
Oh boy there goes the savings!
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-G2ukfu3aAhw/VTaB3XbZqfI/AAAAAAAA5WE/v6Pw1whjz4k/s1600/unnamed-5.jpg)
VRs are chameleons. We already know that. They really do allow small changes made upstream to be easily heard. So what happens when you put another chameleon in front of it? The CH amps are the closest to tube amps I have ever tried. Hold it. I don't mean the sound or what we expect tube amps to sound like. More in terms of being able to tailor sound by allowing you to manipulate amp and speaker interactions. In this case it has a feature set that I find akin to most tube amps ability to be tube rolled. When we roll we, to a certain extent, manipulate distortion spectra and gain. This is exactly what the CH's allow with some added side effects if we can call them that. The twin features are selectable feedback ratios for the AB output section (input and driver section are Class A ZNFB) and selectable gain. If I'm understanding this right, increase in feedback lowers distortion and lowers gain along with it. That's what I'm hearing anyhow. The damping factor goes up but I'm not entirely sure if rise time and slew rate are affected. In any case, the sound gets clearer but also drier. The decrease in gain, as one would expect from simply lowering the volume knob, makes the stage smaller, more recessed and basically neater, more orderly and less bloomy in terms of projection. With the VR-9 SE MK2s (important proviso as it will likely differ from speaker to speaker) Dialling back NFB to 0 does the opposite and sound is closer to let's say my Lamms and KRs which have an intrinsic warmth to them. From 40 to 50 I get a good balance between precision and forgivingness of sub par recordings. At 50% reference tracks are stunning but I need to pass on music I really like that aren't recorded well or start recontouring the FR response using the speaker controls. Ratcheting up past 50% and well, not my cup of tea for long term listening. We get into Halcro type sound. Presentation favors transients over the rest of the envelope making them feel a bit lacking in weight. A lot of people like the "PRAT-y" sound just not me personally.
Moving along, I guess what I'm saying is that these amps afford a flexibility I've never encountered in pure solid state before. Did I mention that they can be configured in Bi-Amp, Monaural and Bridged Monaural? FB and Gain can be adjusted for both Hi and Low outputs in Bi-Amp mode. Doing so allows you to tailor a softer warmer top end and whatever degree of control or grip you like in the bottom end. You get to boost or trim bass too depending on room imposed requirements.
A bad back from crouching at the front panel controls an unhappy byproduct of my adventures. Just two weeks later, they release new firmware and an Android App that allows you to do this fiddling from the sweetspot from a smart phone or tablet. Aaaaaaaarghhhhhhh! I want a refund for my chiropractor expenses :lol: :lol: :lol:
In the end it is about getting sound that fits your aesthetic sensibilities. Long term enjoyment is after all, our common goal. So what does one get when one mates a chameleon with a chameleon? A chameleon that allows the color of the artists to be displayed the way you want it. :thumb:
Get over here Albert!
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Verrry interesting!
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Oh boy there goes the savings!
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-G2ukfu3aAhw/VTaB3XbZqfI/AAAAAAAA5WE/v6Pw1whjz4k/s1600/unnamed-5.jpg)
VRs are chameleons. We already know that. They really do allow small changes made upstream to be easily heard. So what happens when you put another chameleon in front of it? The CH amps are the closest to tube amps I have ever tried. Hold it. I don't mean the sound or what we expect tube amps to sound like. More in terms of being able to tailor sound by allowing you to manipulate amp and speaker interactions. In this case it has a feature set that I find akin to most tube amps ability to be tube rolled. When we roll we, to a certain extent, manipulate distortion spectra and gain. This is exactly what the CH's allow with some added side effects if we can call them that. The twin features are selectable feedback ratios for the AB output section (input and driver section are Class A ZNFB) and selectable gain. If I'm understanding this right, increase in feedback lowers distortion and lowers gain along with it. That's what I'm hearing anyhow. The damping factor goes up but I'm not entirely sure if rise time and slew rate are affected. In any case, the sound gets clearer but also drier. The decrease in gain, as one would expect from simply lowering the volume knob, makes the stage smaller, more recessed and basically neater, more orderly and less bloomy in terms of projection. With the VR-9 SE MK2s (important proviso as it will likely differ from speaker to speaker) Dialling back NFB to 0 does the opposite and sound is closer to let's say my Lamms and KRs which have an intrinsic warmth to them. From 40 to 50 I get a good balance between precision and forgivingness of sub par recordings. At 50% reference tracks are stunning but I need to pass on music I really like that aren't recorded well or start recontouring the FR response using the speaker controls. Ratcheting up past 50% and well, not my cup of tea for long term listening. We get into Halcro type sound. Presentation favors transients over the rest of the envelope making them feel a bit lacking in weight. A lot of people like the "PRAT-y" sound just not me personally.
Moving along, I guess what I'm saying is that these amps afford a flexibility I've never encountered in pure solid state before. Did I mention that they can be configured in Bi-Amp, Monaural and Bridged Monaural? FB and Gain can be adjusted for both Hi and Low outputs in Bi-Amp mode. Doing so allows you to tailor a softer warmer top end and whatever degree of control or grip you like in the bottom end. You get to boost or trim bass too depending on room imposed requirements.
A bad back from crouching at the front panel controls an unhappy byproduct of my adventures. Just two weeks later, they release new firmware and an Android App that allows you to do this fiddling from the sweetspot from a smart phone or tablet. Aaaaaaaarghhhhhhh! I want a refund for my chiropractor expenses :lol: :lol: :lol:
In the end it is about getting sound that fits your aesthetic sensibilities. Long term enjoyment is after all, our common goal. So what does one get when one mates a chameleon with a chameleon? A chameleon that allows the color of the artists to be displayed the way you want it. :thumb:
Get over here Albert!
..how about a link to their homepage or reviews?
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Sure buddy
www.chprecision.com
There are a number of reviews of the smaller amp the A1. A number of reviews of the Transport/Player (D1) and the Converter (C1) too. The M1 I mentioned has no published reviews as of today.
I had a breakthrough earlier this evening. I was dealing with a residual hardness. It would show in peaks. I still wasn't getting that naturalness I've become accustomed too. Impressive definitely but there was still a hint of artifice. It has been perplexing to say the least. A few steps down on the rear ambience tweeter and TA DA!!!!! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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Sure buddy
www.chprecision.com
Suggest you try this instead>>>>>> http://ch-precision.com/
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Ooooops! :oops:
Thanks skolis!
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Sure buddy
www.chprecision.com
There are a number of reviews of the smaller amp the A1. A number of reviews of the Transport/Player (D1) and the Converter (C1) too. The M1 I mentioned has no published reviews as of today.
I had a breakthrough earlier this evening. I was dealing with a residual hardness. It would show in peaks. I still wasn't getting that naturalness I've become accustomed too. Impressive definitely but there was still a hint of artifice. It has been perplexing to say the least. A few steps down on the rear ambience tweeter and TA DA!!!!! :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Many thanks Master Jack!
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I sure am glad master was followed by Jack and not something else :o :lol: :lol: :lol:
I sure don't feel very masterful! The myriad of routes one can take from amp settings to speaker settings to speaker placement to get the desired performance is forcing me to hit the books again. I'm definitely feeling like a student. The added variables is like going from Tic Tac Toe to a Rubik's Cube. I however am nothing if not totally OC. The puzzle will be solved! :thumb:
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Dear Von Schweikert enthusiasts,
I’m curious which amplifiers are currently being used in combination with the big(ger) von Schweikert Systems or according to you are an ideal match as I plan to replace/upgrade my current Parasound JC-1’s (driving the main towers of my Von Schweikert VR10-MK2 system) within the (near) future.
Currently planning to assess the following brands/types Goldmund (Telos 1000), CH-precision (A1/M1), Soulution (501/701) and Constellation (Hercules). Are there any other brand(s)/types according to you (which are preferably available in Europe via retail) that I should take into consideration in combination with these great speakers?
I’m looking for a neutral sounding amplifier that combines effortless control in combination with a very dynamic and highly detailed performance (but in the end getting close to a live performance is the ultimate goal) :D
Thanks in advance!
Best regards,
Jan
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Dear Von Schweikert enthusiasts,
I’m curious which amplifiers are currently being used in combination with the big(ger) von Schweikert Systems or according to you are an ideal match as I plan to replace/upgrade my current Parasound JC-1’s (driving the main towers of my Von Schweikert VR10-MK2 system) within the (near) future.
Currently planning to assess the following brands/types Goldmund (Telos 1000), CH-precision (A1/M1), Soulution (501/701) and Constellation (Hercules). Are there any other brand(s)/types according to you (which are preferably available in Europe via retail) that I should take into consideration in combination with these great speakers?
I’m looking for a neutral sounding amplifier that combines effortless control in combination with a very dynamic and highly detailed performance (but in the end getting close to a live performance is the ultimate goal) :D
Thanks in advance!
Best regards,
Jan
Wow - one heck-of-a-step up from the JC1's to the items you mentioned. Not sure I can
really be of help, 'cuz I'm at a step in between. I've heard - at length - the following with the
VR55's: Constellation; Bricasti M1; Audionet Max; Pass Labs XA160.8. I can only say,
each in their own way, was great. But they were sonically different. Nothing like trying / listening for yourself obviously. So just consider this some fodder to add to your list.
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Wow - one heck-of-a-step up from the JC1's to the items you mentioned. Not sure I can
really be of help, 'cuz I'm at a step in between. I've heard - at length - the following with the
VR55's: Constellation; Bricasti M1; Audionet Max; Pass Labs XA160.8. I can only say,
each in their own way, was great. But they were sonically different. Nothing like trying / listening for yourself obviously. So just consider this some fodder to add to your list.
Hi Skolis.
Thank you for your suggestions :D. I assume you mean the Bricasti M28, which I added including the others amplifiers to my 'short-list'.
Hope to upgrade at the end of next year, so still enough time left.
Best regards,
Jan
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..granted I don't own VR55s but my lowly VR5 Anniversaries are being driven by MC601s...recently replacing the venerable MC501s, and for the $$ there's nothing that competes IMHO. I realize that McIntosh comes up short when it comes to bragging rights and I'm fine with that. No plans to change a thing here!
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Proving once again that there are many paths to audio nirvana and some that aren't so $$ intensive. I have a pair of monitors Albert built for me driven by an Emotiva preamp and my old trusty DH200. It's my pc based system and I listen to FLAC files with FUBAR--USB to Cambridge DAC Magic 100. It sounds WAY better than it has any right to. I won't mention how little I have invested but this diminutive system produces sonics that are way up there :thumb: :thumb:
I own a pair of original VR-4s, upgraded with the VR-5/7 update. Have owned them for 20 years now and they sound fantastic. I've played around with driving them with several amps. Once I connected them with an old Rotel RB850, which I use in my bedroom system. Manufactured in the early 1980s, I picked it up used in the late 90s for $100. 50 wpc, largely dual mono construction. I was surprised by how good it all sounded. Same thing happened when I used an old 75 wpc Parasound amp. And a mid-90s, entry level Cary SLA-30 EL84-based tube amp made them sing. I consider my VS speakers to be very amp friendly. Sure one can keep tweaking and going for that last once of sound, going for certain characteristics in the sound, but I've never heard an amp sound bad through them.
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Hi
Should buy used VR-4 MKIII
Is it fine with Doxa effect?
http://www.doxa.no/products_amplifiers_61.html
Do not look at available watts, this brand is pouring out dynamic 2-300 watts.
The reason is that they are so damned musical and the best I've tested the amplifiers and my old 70SE from 90s plays circles around Hegel H1000usb for example.
70SE I use today on Dynaudio exit.
Doxa as well best light-powered speakers.
Norway's best amplifier brand, I think :-)
If not, what the bass? Not too expensive.
Best Regards from Norway, Lovemusikk
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This is the best combo I've heard with the VSA's-- superb!
Bruce W
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=144003)
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I am in the process of bi-amping my (Leif found) VR5 Annis with balance (makes a HUGE difference ) Audio Mirror mono 45watt parallel SET and a pair of ATSAH class d amps. Talk about magic :-))
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Bruce what amp is that?
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I recently acquired a PS Audio BHK 250 amp (see http://www.psaudio.com/products/bhk-signature-amplifier/ (http://www.psaudio.com/products/bhk-signature-amplifier/)). It has taken 300+ hours to fully come into its own, but now that it has I can say that this amp is refined and subtle, with plenty of detail and air, and provides excellent woofer control and bass. It clarifies complex textures (symphony orchestra, e.g.) much better than my previous setup. It sounds great with my IV jr's and has more than enough power to drive them. There are two sets of binding posts so bi-wiring is easy.
For a long time I ran a bi-amped arrangement with a Golden Tube SE-40 on top and an NAD C275BEE on the bottom. This was very musical and emotionally involving, which is why I kept it so long. But the BHK is just better. Rarely -- very rarely -- I think I miss the SE-40's midrange. The BHK is certainly more neutral and accurate, but definitely not analytic or 'solid state' sounding, probably due to the tubed input stage. A very good middle ground between tubes and solid state.
This amp was a significant investment for me, but I am very satisfied with the improvement -- it's a keeper :D
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Magister --
thanks for this - the first mention I've read here of those new BHK amps from PSAudio with a pair of Vons. I am particularly interested in your observation that you consider a single power amp a step forward from the bi-amping set up you had before. I gather you can tweak those amps with tube rolling, so keep us posted on how you like this amp in the year ahead.
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Thanks for your interest, Delacroix. I've had the BHK 250 for six months now (my post is from August), so here are my thoughts to date.
Short update: after running the BHK 250 for a month or more, I replaced the stock tubes with a pair of Tungsram PCC88s. These are, we are told, the tubes that Bascom King liked the most when developing the amp; of course PS Audio could not use them for production units since they are NOS. They are awesome! Smooth as butter, clean, detailed, you name it. A pair of tube dampers from Herbie's Audio Lab topped things off. If anyone is really interested in tube rolling with these amps, see http://www.psaudio.com/forum/bhk-power-and-pre-amp-forum/bhk-signature-250-or-300-tube-rolling/ (http://www.psaudio.com/forum/bhk-power-and-pre-amp-forum/bhk-signature-250-or-300-tube-rolling/). The BHK 250 also benefits from a good foundation. I have mine on a PS Audio PowerBase; others have used Stillpoints, AmCan footers, etc. with good results.
Longer reply: as regards bi-amping vs a single amp, I think it is a question of the overall quality of the components; one way is not necessarily better than the other. The BHK is a reference-quality amp, derived from everything Mr. King has learned in 50+ years of designing components. The two amps I replaced were mid-audiophile-quality -- good sounding, definitely much better than mass market stuff, but not the last word by any means. The Golden Tube SE-40 was introduced in 1990, and designers have certainly learned things since then. But it does have that wonderful, harmonic midrange, no question. The NAD C275BEE ($1000) avoids any serious sins (like all NAD equipment) but is not as subtle as the BHK. It doesn't seem like on the surface as though I need the extra 100 W/channel I get from the BHK, but the IV jr's, like most VSA speakers, do like power even though they are efficient. The BHK woofs more tightly and precisely. If I had replaced two reference-quality components with the single BHK, I might not have been so impressed.
Would the BHK 250 work well with the larger VSA speakers? I don't know; probably depends on the room, among other things. There is also the monoblock version, the BHK 300 (x 2 of course); those might be a very good match for the IV jr's big brothers. I continue to be very, very pleased with the sound I'm getting. In fact, I liked the BHK 250 so much that in October I bought the matching BHK Preamp, which took my system to an even higher level -- a very significant upgrade over my conrad-johnson Premier 17LS. I am amazed every night at the music I get now. And those IV jr's let me hear every upstream change. :D
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The Jr's when set up right with good equipment are wonderful. I heard them with all Classe equipment in a careful set up and it was when started me on VSA
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Hi fellow VSA owners,
I am currently doing some strategic planning on my next equipment upgrade, and am thinking (but not really sure) that it may be time to move on from my Bryston 7B SST monoblocks. I have VSA VR 5 Anniversaries that were hand tuned by Albert, and I bi amp with a matched set of Brystons for the base and a Sonic Frontiers Power 1 (significantly modded by Parts Connection) to leverage the KT 120 tubes, but also to match input gain and sensitivity to that of the Brystons. I want to keep the SF, because I absolutely LOVE how it sounds driving the M/T of the VR 5. I am looking to get some "jump out of your seat" dynamics that I am not sure the Brystons are capable of delivering. That said, I have read that adding a Torus Isolation Transformer to the Brystons may bring additional dynamics to the table. My other option is to go the route of a good Class D amp. I am looking for some recommendations on class D amps - I have read the thread, and I know Albert thinks highly of the CI Amps, but I haven't seen any recommendations in terms of bi-amping, and using the Class d for the base. The other option (something I may consider ) is the PS Audio BHK 300 Monos. I have the BHK pre and it is an amazing pre-amp - especially once swapping stock tubes for good NOS. I've seen one thread with someone using a BHK 250 stereo amp, but not the 300 monos. I still think I would like to keep the bi-amp set up, which means I am leaning towards a good class D - or other recommendations from those who are bi-amping with VSA speakers.
BTW - the Brystons are an excellent amp, VERY reliable and an amazing customer service from Bryston. They were completely re-built to SST2 status (audio boards, not the transformers or Power supplies) 2 years ago (all under warantee). Living only 1.5 hours away from where the Brystons are made is convenient. I've owned them for about 9 years, and there has been a vast amount of improvements made on class D during that time.
Looking for some advise from fellow VSA owners.
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walterslw, I just heard 2 VSA speakers at RMAF driven by Audionet amps, their E-3 Mk IIs sounded better in Denver than in my home and it was an Audionet integrated, the Aktive 55s were awesome with big Audionet monos. The Acoustic Imagery Atsah 500 Monoblock Amplifiers at $2000/pr are something you should consider, as well as the NORD amps that let you opamp roll from England. Going old school, a Krell might also be a choice for dynamic bass slam.
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Another to consider, Tommy O's Maraschino amps, great grip and bass drive.
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I truly love my Nuforce/Nuprime Reference 20 mono amps in a different type class D than the usual modules. I run them biwired now to VR55 Aktives, in past to VR 5 Anni MK2. Evn like the top end with them enough that I have not gone to a tubes top. I do have a tibed preamp with them
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In regards to you continuing to use your bi amp set up, Albert has always recommended that you put your money on the tube side and you have done so.
I personally do not feel that you will get much more of the dynamic performance that you desire by moving up the Class D food chain.
All Class D's are going to use pulse width modulation on the signal, so I would look almost at how much more power you want to put into your lower cabinets.
Wyred 4 Sound does Class D exceptionally well, I suggest their new mono blocs here: https://wyred4sound.com/products/power-amps/mono/sx-1000r
I use a pair of their mAmps on my VR4jr's that are bi amped and get plenty of punch.
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Thanks for the feedback, im going to do more digging on my end. There are plenty of manufactures out there.
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I just received my new Lampizator 211 True Balanced Monoblock amplifiers this week. If you were at RMAF, you may have seen my amps in the Lampizator room. They were being fed by the new Pacific DAC and from reports, the room rocked. I'm using the Lampizator Golden Gate DAC, with the amps driving the M/T inputs of my Von Schweikert VR100XS speakers with Spectron monoblocks handling the bass section.
Installing equipment always involves powering things down and moving all the cables & power cords around. It takes a while for everything to settle in and the system to settle down. Well, after a couple of hours, the system almost suddenly came into focus. The change was startling. Bottom line, these amps are amazing!
The distinctive signature of the balanced 211 amps is how they integrate the components of instruments and voices into palpable, harmonically complex, objects. Yet, the sound is airy, open, and very relaxed. The soundstage is even more holographic than I'm used to and that's saying a lot when that was already a defining quality of the VR100's. Time and time again with these amps in the system, I'm struck with how much more of a live performance the music has become.
I wanted to get a sense of how these amps would perform running full range, so I've spent some time using them full range, biwring to the VR100's. The results are uniformly good, very good. The bass is full, deep, and articulated with the complexity that you'd expect from tubes, but still well controlled. Going back to biamping allowes me to run the 211's using the 4 ohm taps, matching the nominal M/T impedance (the bass section of the VR100 is specified as 8 ohms). Aligning the impedance to the M/T section adds a shade more delicacy and openness to the top end. Also, the combination of four monoblock amps provides some huge orchestra fortissimos.
Some key design points-- the two 211 tubes per amp are not push-pull. They're used as mirrored single ended power tubes with each handling one phase of the XLR balanced input with their output only combined at the output transformer. There's no phase splitter tube and no feedback, local or global, which I believe is one reason for the strong coherence of the sound. The VSA speakers and these amps are a great sounding combo, the best I've heard.
Best,
Robert
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I just received my new Lampizator 211 True Balanced Monoblock amplifiers this week. If you were at RMAF, you may have seen my amps in the Lampizator room. They were being fed by the new Pacific DAC and from reports, the room rocked. I'm using the Lampizator Golden Gate DAC, with the amps driving the M/T inputs of my Von Schweikert VR100XS speakers with Spectron monoblocks handling the bass section.
Installing equipment always involves powering things down and moving all the cables & power cords around. It takes a while for everything to settle in and the system to settle down. Well, after a couple of hours, the system almost suddenly came into focus. The change was startling. Bottom line, these amps are amazing!
The distinctive signature of the balanced 211 amps is how they integrate the components of instruments and voices into palpable, harmonically complex, objects. Yet, the sound is airy, open, and very relaxed. The soundstage is even more holographic than I'm used to and that's saying a lot when that was already a defining quality of the VR100's. Time and time again with these amps in the system, I'm struck with how much more of a live performance the music has become.
I wanted to get a sense of how these amps would perform running full range, so I've spent some time using them full range, biwring to the VR100's. The results are uniformly good, very good. The bass is full, deep, and articulated with the complexity that you'd expect from tubes, but still well controlled. Going back to biamping allowes me to run the 211's using the 4 ohm taps, matching the nominal M/T impedance (the bass section of the VR100 is specified as 8 ohms). Aligning the impedance to the M/T section adds a shade more delicacy and openness to the top end. Also, the combination of four monoblock amps provides some huge orchestra fortissimos.
Some key design points-- the two 211 tubes per amp are not push-pull. They're used as mirrored single ended power tubes with each handling one phase of the XLR balanced input with their output only combined at the output transformer. There's no phase splitter tube and no feedback, local or global, which I believe is one reason for the strong coherence of the sound. The VSA speakers and these amps are a great sounding combo, the best I've heard.
Best,
Robert
Now that is SERIOUS set up my friend! Great job!
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I just received my new Lampizator 211 True Balanced Monoblock amplifiers this week. If you were at RMAF, you may have seen my amps in the Lampizator room. They were being fed by the new Pacific DAC and from reports, the room rocked. I'm using the Lampizator Golden Gate DAC, with the amps driving the M/T inputs of my Von Schweikert VR100XS speakers with Spectron monoblocks handling the bass section.
Installing equipment always involves powering things down and moving all the cables & power cords around. It takes a while for everything to settle in and the system to settle down. Well, after a couple of hours, the system almost suddenly came into focus. The change was startling. Bottom line, these amps are amazing!
The distinctive signature of the balanced 211 amps is how they integrate the components of instruments and voices into palpable, harmonically complex, objects. Yet, the sound is airy, open, and very relaxed. The soundstage is even more holographic than I'm used to and that's saying a lot when that was already a defining quality of the VR100's. Time and time again with these amps in the system, I'm struck with how much more of a live performance the music has become.
I wanted to get a sense of how these amps would perform running full range, so I've spent some time using them full range, biwring to the VR100's. The results are uniformly good, very good. The bass is full, deep, and articulated with the complexity that you'd expect from tubes, but still well controlled. Going back to biamping allowes me to run the 211's using the 4 ohm taps, matching the nominal M/T impedance (the bass section of the VR100 is specified as 8 ohms). Aligning the impedance to the M/T section adds a shade more delicacy and openness to the top end. Also, the combination of four monoblock amps provides some huge orchestra fortissimos.
Some key design points-- the two 211 tubes per amp are not push-pull. They're used as mirrored single ended power tubes with each handling one phase of the XLR balanced input with their output only combined at the output transformer. There's no phase splitter tube and no feedback, local or global, which I believe is one reason for the strong coherence of the sound. The VSA speakers and these amps are a great sounding combo, the best I've heard.
Best,
Robert
WOW - congrats on an awesome system. Had a chance to look up those 211 amps - they look amazing, must also sound incredible. The more research I do, I am not so certain I should remove the Brystons. I may look into upgrading cables, and inserting a balanced passive attenuator for the base for better control as a starting point. Goldpoint makes a nice balanced switched passive that would be perfect. I know some here use a Tortuga passive pre - but any feedback on users of the Goldpoint for attenuating just the base?
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This will allow you to match sensitivity as well.
https://ciaudio.com/product/vpc%E2%80%A23-passive-controller/
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This will allow you to match sensitivity as well.
https://ciaudio.com/product/vpc%E2%80%A23-passive-controller/ (https://ciaudio.com/product/vpc%E2%80%A23-passive-controller/)
Thanks - I like the price, but want to keep everything balanced if possible. I wonder if they can make me a balanced version, their price is much better than GP.
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Regarding passive controllers and attenuators. In my system described above, I'm using two Tortuga attenuators, both of which use balanced inputs and outputs as well as all the internals. I use the LDRxB for the main controller. It has three sets of balanced inputs and one single ended set. It has two sets of balanced outputs and one single ended set. The SE inputs and outputs go through transformers, so all the internals are fully balanced.
I send one set of outputs to the Lampizator 211 True Balanced monoblocks. The second set from the LDRxB goes to a Tortuga LDR1B. This has a single set of balanced inputs and two sets of balanced outputs. The output of the LDR1B goes to a pair of Spectron Musician III amps running as monoblocks (one channel of each handling one phase of the signal from the XLR input).
Don't get me started on the Tortugas. These controllers are the best sounding of any active or passive controller/preamps that I've had in my system (they killed my previous preamp, the ARC REF3). They've also (easily) outperformed other preamps priced in 5 figures.
Check out the Tortuga website at www.tortugaaudio.com to see their capabilities. All their control functions can be controlled using an included Apple remote. These functions include user defined input impedance settings ranging from (for the balanced units) 2k to 198k in 2k steps. You can save up to 10 input impedance settings (#1 is fixed at 40k for balanced units). After living with this, I would not now own a controller that didn't offer this feature. You can tailor the input impedance settings of both the LDRxB and the LDR1B to optimize the sound in your system. I also select between impedances to fine tune the sound for different recordings.
Another feature is the ability to switch absolute phase of your system, again from your listening position. This is another feature that, once you get used to it, you won't want to be without it.
Did I mention that the Tortugas sound great? They're the first and only passive controller that has the deep bass with power, punch, PRAT, and extends to the subterranean regions. The sound stage is excellent both in width and depth and the highs are airy, open, and extended.
The Tortugas all use a software attenuation controller that (again from the remote) lets you have the unit recalibrate the LDRs attenuation curves to avoid any issue with long term drift which can affect other LDR-based controllers.
All I can say is that the Tortugas are an essential part of my system. They're not going anywhere. That's my two cents' worth.
Robert
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Anybody has experience on Luxman amp, like the M-900u, on VSA? Mine is VR-5.
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I have used a single McIntosh MC7150 with my VR-4 speakers and the result is great. I also tried a Parasound A23. The main difference was in the bass section, more natural with the McIntosh.
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I use Krell KAV 2250 for my fronts (VR-4 Gen III HSE) and for my LCR-40 and TS150 (4) I use Anthem MCA-5
The Krell has plenty of juice to make them very loud with no distortion.
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Well, I'm a believer of what Albert espoused. I'm using an Aric Audio 300B Set amp to feed the Tweeter and midrange and a Parasound 21+ to drive the dual woofers. I'm also using dual Rel subs coming off the solid state amp that drives the woofers. My speakers are an older pair of VR-5 HSA.
I like it a lot. The sound stage, definition and clarity are great.
Jeff