Phantom Center and Surrounds

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Sonix

Phantom Center and Surrounds
« on: 23 Apr 2015, 03:37 am »
I am currently contemplating a dedicated Salk home theater
with a Phantom Center and Surrounds.

Room will be 16ft x 21ft with raised ceiling and I prefer
my serious listening in 2.0.

Is anyone out there currently employing this method
and how is it working for you?

Thanks in advance for sharing your feedback.

Austin08

Re: Phantom Center and Surrounds
« Reply #1 on: 23 Apr 2015, 04:32 am »
This answer is only apply to my Sounscape 8 system with Def Tech bipolar surround.

First, I have my 8s for several months before I put an ordered for my C8. The 8s themself were doing a wonderful job at creating center image. At some point back then, there were many time I told myself "this is great, I don't need center speaker at all". But in the end, I was convinced myself to order one from Jim. Imo, it does make a positive impact to the front stage. Sound seem more open and effortless. Not only enhanced the dialog but also the dynamic kick drum or big explosive scene were pressurized my room with greater vertical scale. It does put me back thinking of how important the center channel speaker is. Yes. With the 8s, I don't need to have center speaker to enjoy my movie/music but to have a nearly perfect match one is really a game changer, imo.

Second, Surround or no surround speakers. Many moon ago, when there were only Doby Prologic. We, early adopter, often find ourself sticking those tiny little speakers into two rear corners  of the room  and call them surround speakers. I remember I usually put my ears on each speaker many time during movie to make sure there were sound coming out. Those days are long gone. Sound tracks nowaday, is way better.  Even though,  we often discount ourself as surround speakers are not that critical. I tend to agree to some degree. Imo, the surround speaker do not have to match the front but they have to be good enough to deliver the modern intensed sound track. Watching movie or live concert blu ray without center is ok. But I can not do it without my surround speakers. It take away half of the fun.

Just my 2cts

JonnyFive

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Re: Phantom Center and Surrounds
« Reply #2 on: 26 Apr 2015, 01:59 pm »
I have the Salk Exotica 3 as mains and the NHT Super Zeros as heights, NHT Super Ones as surrounds in a 7.1 system.  I currently sold my old center channel and while I'm waiting for the new NHT Center 3 to come in tomorrow, I am playing with movies in 2.1 with a phantom center.  It sounds ok if you're right in the center, I think off-axis it gets a little distracting having a voice come from whatever side you're on. I'd recommend a nice 3 way center channel to complete setup, but YMMV.

JonnyFive

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Re: Phantom Center and Surrounds
« Reply #3 on: 26 Apr 2015, 02:00 pm »
Which Salks are you looking at?  What's your budget? 

Saturn94

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Re: Phantom Center and Surrounds
« Reply #4 on: 26 Apr 2015, 02:50 pm »
I have the Salk Exotica 3 as mains and the NHT Super Zeros as heights, NHT Super Ones as surrounds in a 7.1 system.  I currently sold my old center channel and while I'm waiting for the new NHT Center 3 to come in tomorrow, I am playing with movies in 2.1 with a phantom center.  It sounds ok if you're right in the center, I think off-axis it gets a little distracting having a voice come from whatever side you're on. I'd recommend a nice 3 way center channel to complete setup, but YMMV.

+1


kingdeezie

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Re: Phantom Center and Surrounds
« Reply #5 on: 26 Apr 2015, 03:32 pm »
Sonix,

Welcome, perhaps, to the Salk family. Jim and the crew are amazing to work with, having recently joined myself.

I am a little confused by your phrasing. You mentioned that you are making a dedicated home theater, but then state that you like to listen in 2 channel.

Does this mean that HT or listening to music is the priority? I think it is important to establish what your goals are, and given that they both demand different things, you are going to have to prioritize one over the other.

For music, IME and IMO, there isn't a home theater receiver or processor that can compete with a well made dedicated preamplifier. Many moons ago I used to, in my dedicated "man cave," run a Pioneer Elite processor, it was in the ballpark of $1500 or so. It was obviously no where near something like an Anthem, Theta, or Classe, with these units costing 10K+, but let me tell you, it was EMBARRASSED by a 700 dollar tube preamplifier for music. It was startlingly the difference. I haven't ever heard as big of a difference in reproduction since that time. This revelation started it all for me, and I have been on a wallet destroying binge ever since.

If your top priority is high fidelity music reproduction, and you don't want the complexity of having both a preamp with HT bypass, and a receiver for HT, you can honestly do pretty well with a phantom center with your HT sources run through a DAC, and into the preamplifier.

I am running my Exotica 3s phantom center now in my room, and while I do mostly listen to music in there, the center image is outstanding for video games and movies. Its all about positioning.

If the room is dedicated, and you can place the speakers however you like, there are ways to help mitigate the image pull off axis. It will never beat a dedicated center for locking vocals to the center of the screen, but it can still sound great, and allow you to alleviate a lot of the complexity of trying to get top quality sound and a HT at the same time. That is, if you place music over HT listening.

For HT priority, you need to have three matching speakers for the front stage. IMO, worse than having the image move off axis, is a mismatch of vocals across a stage. Sometimes people pan across from left, center, to right, and a huge delta in sound quality here is overtly obvious, and really hurts the quality of the reproduction. I had this issue right before I decided to completely ditch multichannel HT in favor of high quality 2.0. I took the center channel out, completely removed the processor, and just started watching movies through my preamp and two speakers, instantly much happier.

IMO, I think that HT and music require two completely different ways of looking at sound reproduction. Most people who love HT that I have talked with are trying to replicate movie theater sound. Big, loud, pressurized; bombastic. IME most movie theaters I have been to, sound horrendous when compared to the qualities inherent in good two channel listening, refinement, texture, naturalness, openness, etc, etc.

Its all about what you are really looking for, and what matters most to you. 

If you want a dedicated HT room that is geared towards movies, you need a center channel and a processor. You'll get outstanding HT reproduction, and good music reproduction. If you want a room geared towards music, you need a high quality preamplifier and two great speakers. You'll get outstanding music reproduction, and your movies will still sound pretty good.

Good luck.  :thumb: