Ne (Revised?) Sanders Electrostat

BruceSB · « **on:** 20 Sep 2014, 12:56 am »

I notice on the Sanders website that there is a new/revised speaker, the model 10d.
There is not a lot of detail.
Appears to be some fine tuning.
I wonder does anyone know anything more?
What improvements has this achieved.
How big a difference does it make?
How do they sound?
Anyone able to give us a bit (or a lot!!!) more detail.
Thanks.
Bruce

richidoo · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 Sep 2014, 01:55 am »

Different bass driver, updated TL.

http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com/products/electrostatic-speakers/model-10

BruceSB · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 Sep 2014, 02:09 am »

Thanks.
Yeah, I noted a new base driver.
I assumed that the details given relate to the new driver, and, the change to the transmission line, is it only to house the new driver?
I guess that my question really related to what difference the driver and revised transmission line made.
Is the base faster for example?
Is there less distortion?
Does the model 10d sound different to the other model 10s?
Does the new driver help even more with the integration to the electrostatic panel?
I am thinking that there are people around here who are familiar with the other models and are able to comment on the differences from a listening rather than driver perspective.
Thanks.
Bruce

Doublej · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 Sep 2014, 02:15 am »

I bet it sounds great setup as in the picture. Competition for the Klipschorns?

richidoo · « **Reply #4 on:** 20 Sep 2014, 02:28 am »

It mentions that the new driver is metal cone, and I think it said more excursion?

The TL has to be tweaked when you change the driver as they are co-dependent.

Metal cones are awesome as long as you stay away from their break up range in the midrange. For bass they are great. They are a little heavier than typical paper cone woofers, but a more powerful motor will make that moot. The stiffness of metal adds more detail and less harmonic distortion at higher volumes. He also mentioned the deeper rubber surround that allows more Xmax does so without typical resonance of big rubber surrounds. Sounds like a wonderful driver.

Anybody else think the Behringer XO is a little out of it's league with this system?

BruceSB · « **Reply #5 on:** 20 Sep 2014, 02:35 am »

Thanks for the explanation.
I found it really helpful.
I now have a much clearer understanding of the improvements in the model 10d.
Much appreciated.
Yes, I am thinking in terms of a DEQX, specifically a PreMATE.
Regards
Bruce

BruceSB · « **Reply #6 on:** 7 Oct 2014, 04:14 am »

Following on from where this thread ended (DEQX) not where it started (New Sanders Model 10 Electrostat) here is something of interest.
DEQX are releasing two new models at the Rocky Mountain HIFi Show.
Here is the link.
https://www.audiofest.net/2014/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/DEQX_PR.pdf
Would be great if anyone going to the Rocky Mountain Show could call into both the Sanders & DEQX rooms and give us some impressions.
Thanks
Bruce

Pneumonic · « **Reply #7 on:** 21 Oct 2014, 03:55 pm »

Quote from: richidoo on 20 Sep 2014, 02:28 am

Anybody else think the Behringer XO is a little out of it's league with this system?

I run a Behringer DCX2496 in my Sanders 10c setup. I measured its performance using its analog inputs. It has essentially zero distortion with all of the harmonics (except the benign 2nd harmonic) buried way down in the noise floor. My spectrum analyzer shows THD of 0.00069% which is essentially noise floor composition (down 120 dB below the signal) rather than any actual distortion harmonics. Objectively, the 2496 performs spectacularly and has no sound per se.

As an added benefit, in my case, it also doubles as a digital room correction device. Since my 10c’s are very directional and so, thankfully, have very little high frequency (above ~ 500Hz) dispersion pattern errors, I am able to get rock solid room EQ by using the DCX2496 to adjust midrange, midbass, and deep bass EQ on its own.

BruceSB · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 Oct 2014, 10:10 am »

Went to the Melbourne HiFi show last Saturday.
The Sanders room dealer is also the DEQX and Maggie dealer.
He was demo-ing DEQX & Magtech with Maggies.
Yes, you could hear the difference the PreMATE plus made as he switched it in and out.
Had a good chat with him about the model 10s.
Also had a good chat with a guy there who purchased some model 10c's some months back.
He was extremely happy with his model 10c's.
It is an amazing thing being able to eliminate the room contribution.
My dedicated (pretty small) music room suffers badly from nodes and the ability to deal with them is important to me (as would be the cross over capabilities if I was going for a Sanders model 10).
As a bit of an aside, there was a fairly high profile speaker manufacture at the show who could have been seen as deliberately placing his speakers and selecting his demo music just so that every single node in his room was excited!!!
These ears found it very hard to take and I did not last long in his room!
Bruce

Davey · « **Reply #9 on:** 23 Oct 2014, 03:36 pm »

The woofer photograph is a Seas 10" aluminum cone driver. He describes it with a 2-layer VC so that narrows it down to the D1001-04 design. Impressive.

http://www.seas.no/images/stories/design/pdf_datasheet/l26roy-d0001_.pdf

Dave.

Pneumonic · « **Reply #10 on:** 23 Oct 2014, 05:18 pm »

Quote from: BruceSB on 23 Oct 2014, 10:10 am

Went to the Melbourne HiFi show last Saturday.
The Sanders room dealer is also the DEQX and Maggie dealer.
He was demo-ing DEQX & Magtech with Maggies.
Yes, you could hear the difference the PreMATE plus made as he switched it in and out.
Had a good chat with him about the model 10s.
Also had a good chat with a guy there who purchased some model 10c's some months back.
He was extremely happy with his model 10c's.
It is an amazing thing being able to eliminate the room contribution.
My dedicated (pretty small) music room suffers badly from nodes and the ability to deal with them is important to me (as would be the cross over capabilities if I was going for a Sanders model 10).

Hi, Bruce.

Not familiar with the Premate but were the levels accounted for when switching in/out?

This is the first time in my 35+ years in this hobby that I have implemented DSP to correct my speaker/room interaction woes. It's been a huge revelation for me; an extreme about-face moment in my audio system building life. I only wish it had happened sooner.

Jon L · « **Reply #11 on:** 23 Oct 2014, 06:25 pm »

Quote from: Pneumonic on 21 Oct 2014, 03:55 pm

I run a Behringer DCX2496 in my Sanders 10c setup.

Lucky man. Sanders rooms always demo the 10 with Magnechs, Behringer, a digital recorder source, without ability to try other songs.
What source, amps are you running the 10c with, and do you find it is as good/better than the usual Sanders demo setup?

Pneumonic · « **Reply #12 on:** 23 Oct 2014, 07:10 pm »

Quote from: Jon L on 23 Oct 2014, 06:25 pm

Lucky man. Sanders rooms always demo the 10 with Magnechs, Behringer, a digital recorder source, without ability to try other songs.
What source, amps are you running the 10c with, and do you find it is as good/better than the usual Sanders demo setup?

Hi, Jon.

I have never heard the usual Sanders demo offering but, for source, I am single digital only, and slave a Squeezebox Transporter to a Lessloss DAC (2004 mkII) which has a shunt to ground volume control in place.

I am biamping the 10's with Innersound 800 mono's on the panels and a Magtech stereo powering the woofers. I have run the amps the other way around but can't tell any difference.

I do feel very fortunate to have happened upon these. I have been a stat guy going back close to 30 years now and have had Soundlabs, Quad's, Dayton Wright's, Innersound's, Acoustat's and a variety of Martin Logan's pass through but, nothing like this setup.

BruceSB · « **Reply #13 on:** 30 Oct 2014, 10:57 am »

Last night I listened to a Sanders system.
Wow!
I am shocked at how good it was!!
An audiophile I was introduced to at the HiFi show kindly invited me out to his house for a listen.
Sanders electrostats, two Magtechs, the digital electronic cross over and the the sanders pre-amp.
I consider myself an electrostatic guy.
I have acoustics (spectra 22s), I have listened to various martin logans, various quads at length and some others, …
And the sanders leaves them for dust!!
I was absolutely amazed at how good they were.
Staggering electrostat purity and the purity of the base, …
Deep but with no hint of all of the "extras" that most box speakers give you.
Also, I had a demo of the "sweet spot".
Sitting in the listening chair I was in the sweet spot no matter where I moved.
Did not relate to any of that head in the vice stuff that people talk about.
The guy demoing also had lots of very nice things to say about Roger Sanders.
I would urge anyone in the market for new speakers of any type to give them a listen!
Bruce

Jon L · « **Reply #14 on:** 31 Oct 2014, 04:03 am »

Quote from: BruceSB on 30 Oct 2014, 10:57 am

Last night I listened to a Sanders system.
Wow!
I am shocked at how good it was!!

Shhhh! Let's not drive up used prices. What was the owner using as source btw?

BruceSB · « **Reply #15 on:** 31 Oct 2014, 04:39 am »

I took a couple of my good test CDs and a SACD.
He only had an oldish CD deck which played back via one of his two DACs (don't remember which one).
Still sounded fantastic.
Maybe it could have sounded even better via a top of the line playback system?
But, …
Still sounded absolutely fantastic!!!
Bruce

Davey · « **Reply #16 on:** 31 Oct 2014, 01:33 pm »

Play loud enough for you?

I'd need to audition a set of Sanders sometime.

Dave.

BruceSB · « **Reply #17 on:** 31 Oct 2014, 11:12 pm »

The sanders owner played an orchestral piece and boy did it go loud, really loud!
Heaps of good clean base too!
And, …
You could clearly hear the venue's own distinctive acoustic!
I am sure that the piece was one of the guy's "test" pieces.
He told me about his audition of some quads during his upgrade process.
Told me how he could hear the quads banging against the stators at a much lower level than we were listening!
He was playing the system much louder than I am accustomed to listen but it was so clear.
He also told me how Roger Sanders was so confident in his products that his 30 day money back trial extended all the way to far distant Melbourne (Australia).
Like I said, anyone looking to buy new speakers really ought to have an audition of the sanders.
Bruce

Tyson · « **Reply #18 on:** 31 Oct 2014, 11:15 pm »

Yep, they do a lot right, we've heard them several times at RMAF and they are one of the best at dealing with room problems. I do wonder why he does sealed bass instead of OB bass, since low frequencies benefit from OB as much as the mids/highs.

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #19 on:** 31 Oct 2014, 11:29 pm »

I had a pair of full range Acoustat Three's back in the day driven by some 150w amps and never felt the need to add satellite subs but then I listen to mostly acoustic music. They delivered the goods- tone, timbre and imaging- on rock albums generally but with less punch than acoustic suspension subs would have. I expect that Sanders is trying to reach a broader audience. Besides, for electrostats to do deep base they have to be fairly large. Tell you what else . . I wish I still had em.