AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Enclosures => Topic started by: Archguy on 18 Jul 2017, 01:00 am
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Guh, should have thought of a better title. 'Endless speaker dilemma' sounds negative. Actually the only negatives are that I don't have four thousand bucks to spend and I can't be wherever the best (used) deals are. They always seem to be far away! I want new tower speakers as I wrote in the FS/WTB section (http://"http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=151555.0"), but I don't think we're supposed to engage in extended discussions there. So here then.
Anyway here's my listening room at the moment. I have a HT setup in a different room. The two leather chairs partly visible on the right are the listening area. The room is a bit cavernous but even though I don't like w/w carpeting it's good here otherwise the space might sound like a cave. I think the room has seven walls.
Those are Polk Monitor 70 IIs which I just got and am looking to replace. I'll use them as fills behind the listening area maybe. Mainly because I don't like the way they look. They sound fine to me which probably tells you two things: I'm not the world's most critical listener and maybe I've never even heard great sound. In my defense on the first count I'll mention that I listen to Pandora One 98% of the time which means that my source signal tends to be a bit 'compromised' at the outset. However I did just hook up a CD player to the Yamaha amp driving these two speakers (and soon to be two more up in the loft overhead) so maybe I'll open up my old boxes of CDs for some critical listening at some point.
If it matters, I'm about 60% jazz atm with 30% classical and 10% rock and 'current' whatever it's called. Hiphop maybe? IDK, has lots of foul language.
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/vigppgf18qxec88/IMG_20170708_LR8.jpg?dl=1)
I have three ideal height targets: 22" 33" & 42-44+" The Polks shown here are way too narrow and deep, which I've discovered is very common. I want something wider and shallower. 10+ inches wide would be great and they absolutely must be less than 14" deep. Otherwise they stick out further than the bookcase. I'm an architect and looks matter a lot to me. More than sound when it comes down to it, even if that is heresy here. Speaking of which, the Klipsch Heresy has a good shape :)
In the past ten days I've bought nine amps, five pairs of speakers, and a CD player. And obviously I'm not done yet. Mind you, some of those amps were super cheapies to run auxiliary Chromecast zones. I'm amazed at how good they sound. Although I lust after high-end Luxman & Accuphase amps I'm not about to spend that kind of money.
Now that my HTD L3 Bookshelfs have come in, I'm happy with their sound, indifferent to their design, and in love with their satin-finish, genuine ebony veneers. SO...what do you guys think of HTD sound? I'd never heard of them until recently. And which towers should I get? I actually like the L2 towers' design a bit better but I'm concerned that I won't like the sound as much re: upper registers. Plus they're very narrow. The design of the towers--particularly the L3--is like something my grandparents might have had (though of course they didn't have towers). I just mean that they don't really look 'designed' at all. I'm a bit concerned that I'll drop money on these and they'll be redesigned next year into something I really like. I should offer HTD my services. http://www.htd.com/Level-THREE-Tower-Speakers
What about R55Ti TOWER SPEAKERS IMPRESSION SERIES ?? https://rbhsound.com/bstock-r55ti.php -- by all accounts their red wrap does a convincing impression of real wood. It's a handsome speaker though tall and narrow 8-1/2" W x 47-1/2" H x 12-1/4" D , and this appears to be a good deal (though a gamble re: condition) -- The rear-firing ports mean I can't put them against the wall though, and they are tall and narrow. And I'm not crazy about the outriggers. The SVT MODULAR TOWER SYSTEM is intriguing but I can't figure out what it costs or how to buy it. https://rbhsound.com/svt.php "No RBH Sound Dealers were found in your area." NVM...it's just too much of a hassle when you can't even figure out what these things cost.
My local dealer is a prime example of why bricks & mortar are being shut down in favor of online distribution channels. Lots of talk about "curated" and "hand-picked" equipment and "bespoke" solutions, but absolutely no information about what they actually sell, aside from mfr links and some photos. And no clue what things might cost. SMH. Almost completely opaque. I'm not even young and I won't bother with them. http://www.audio-exchange.com
(http://www.hifi-review.com/images/archive/Boston_Acoustics_VR3_550.jpg)
These old Boston Acoustics have a great form factor but even I might be disappointed with their sound, not to mention I think that woodgrain may be plastic-laminate.
Right now I'm waiting for some knockout Salks to come up on the used market but my trigger finger is beginning to get very itchy. Maybe I'll buy something like the HTDs and then wait for the pre-owned Salks of my dreams to come along. Any and all advice welcome. How and where do you set up buyer alerts online?
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The JBL Studio 570 is a fascinating anomaly, in my books, and a very good sounding speaker. However the finish, frankly, is cheap looking and it might bother your aesthetic sensibilities. They are fairly hard to find, as well, but it was the designer's (Greg Timbers) favourite of the series. Of it he was reported to have said something like "it has no right to sound as good as it does".
If I were you, I'd buy a pair if you can find them and do what you can do to fix the cosmetics. There are not many home speakers at budget prices with genuine compression drivers and well-designed horns. Also, be aware that they need to be positioned away from the wall, as they will be bass-heavy otherwise.
New, the Studio 580 seems still to be available, and at a substantial discount:
http://www.harmanaudio.com/jbl/STUDIO+580.html?dwvar_STUDIO%20580_color=Black#start=1
For wide and shallow, and for listening at very moderate loudnesses, I would consider the Jordan Eikona. Either get a cabinetmaker to make you a set from Jordan's plans:
http://www.ejjordan.co.uk/products/diy-plans/
or buy from one of the few specialist makes around the world such as Audiowood in New Orleans ($1600-$2000):
http://www.audiowood.com/retail.html
You would have to contact them to make sure they use the new Eikona driver, not the old one pictured here:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165628)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165629)
Those are so amazing looking. About the JBLs, I had my eyes on them but they look like black holes. Interesting idea to buy the 570s and revamp them aesthetically. I once had JBLs in oak veneer and they sounded awesome (a tad bright, naturally, but I like that to a point) and the oak was very very appealing.
I'm looking at the Audiowood site now. THANKS
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What do you guys know about the Cambridge Aeromax 6?? In my price range and I like the gloss black well enough. Weird tweeter theory though. How well does it work?? https://shop.cambridgeaudio.com/us/product/aeromax-6
I'd even consider used Maggies if I could feel reasonably secure about their longevity. I thought of buying a pair off eBay and having the seller ship them straight to the Mag factory for refurbishment.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MAGNEPAN-MG-1-7-/172772913329
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Magnepan-MG-IB-/332306774362
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Magnepan-MG-1-6-QR-Factory-refreshed-recently-AudioPhile-Plus-Rare-Cherry-Sides-/182539528529
I just have the feeling they don't ship so well.
Edit: Not Heresy, Cornwall. Klipsch is manufacturing updated versions of all their classics. All you need is cash.
Wonder how they sound? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Klipsch-Cornwall-III-California-Black-Walnut-Ea-Floorstanding-Speaker/152467487890
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I think your subject title is just fine. I spent a good four years fumbling around listening to speakers to figure out which ones to get. [I finally decided about 5 weeks ago.] In my first year-plus I bought and sold three pairs of speakers before I was able to force myself to slow way down. I made myself a sort of deal that I'd listen to as many speakers as possible till I finally found the pair that I was pretty confident I'd hang onto for a long time.
Actually, I found several pairs that have magic for me. However, a couple pairs were way out of my budget ($25k, $28k). I don't care how good the sound. I'm not going to spend that much on a pair of speakers.
Anyway, I'd like to suggest you slow down and listen to more speakers. If you're patient, you'll gain experience from all the listening and you can build up your cash supply.
Michael
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These Devore's fit your aesthetic requirements but not your budget as stated. There are a few companies that do wide baffle speakers but certainly not a lot.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-devore-fidelity-o-93-o93-mint-condition-1-year-old-speaker-2017-07-13-speakers-1535e37e-ed36-4bec-8e51-369a684ef1ad?refsource=hifishark
Also contact Mark Sossa at Well Pleased Audio Vida in Springfield and talk with him about what you are looking for.
http://wellpleasedav.com/about/
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Another speaker that may fit the bill are Zu. The Omen and the Def are in the 12" deep range (there may others as well) and used will fit within your budget. I've never heard them but they do come with beautiful finishes/veneers and seem to have a loyal following.
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These Devore's fit your aesthetic requirements but not your budget as stated. There are a few companies that do wide baffle speakers but certainly not a lot.
Also contact Mark Sossa at Well Pleased Audio Vida in Springfield and talk with him about what you are looking for.
http://wellpleasedav.com/about/
He looks a bit high-end for me (as just about any B&M audio emporium has to be nowadays). I lived and worked in DC & Environs for ten years. There's a lot of money 'round there ;) Before that I lived in Manhattan, about which 'nuff said.
On his site I found this knee-weakening example of tube-amp pr0n:
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/566d807cc21b865cfe7de979/56797d2d1c121003acb06b72/5966beb9f9a61efb4ccf77c9/1499905722769/a20i.jpg?format=1000w)
In case you want to know how crazy I am, I now own five tube amps, and the crazy part is that only one has arrived so far. Cheap ones mind you. Just for fun, but isn't all of this?
Another speaker that may fit the bill are Zu. The Omen and the Def are in the 12" deep range (there may others as well) and used will fit within your budget. I've never heard them but they do come with beautiful finishes/veneers and seem to have a loyal following.
Thank you very very much for that info (as well as the PM). Their speakers look just about perfect for my purpose, although for some reason the prices aren't showing up on my browser (may be my noscript settings). I'm afraid to ask. Like you say though, used, used.
ETA: Aww geez. Tried another browser. "Omen Def Mk.II from $4,500.00" "Definition from $16,900.00"
Nothing's that used...
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Considering your space, the shape/size speaker you are looking for, music preferences, listening preferences, and variety of tube amps to pair them with, if single driver speakers are an option on the table, they would be getting pretty close (but not over) to your top end budget new, but I'm pretty sure Omega (here on AudioCircle) builds a few models that are all but exactly the speaker you are asking for.
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Mark is not a B&M dealer. He is a social worker who runs an audio business out of his home and is also the US distributor for many brands. His contacts with brands that he does or doesn't carry could come in handy. If you think a brief look at his website makes him not worth a phone call then that is up to you. Seem to be quick to make judgements about value and motives. Good luck.
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I aesthetics is your priority, just pick up a pair of wall mounted built-in speakers and add a sub.
My audio advice:
1st - Figure out what your audio priorities are (until then you'll just be running in circles).
2nd - As Michael suggests, slow down on the purchases and do serious auditioning before purchasing (or else you'll continue to confuse yourself).
3rd - 99% of speakers are designed to function best away from walls, so move the speakers out at least 3 feet from walls (especially get that right speaker out of the "cave" created by walls/bookcase), remove the plant that's blocking the right speaker, and lose the lounge piece (which is blocking the center of any soundstage you're able to create).
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I'm sorry if I misstated the Zu models...most are over your stated budget new, but check out them out on hifishark. There's not much of a selection used for sale at this moment, but if you look at the sold/expired listings you'll see several models have been listed or sold under $2,000.
Two things I like about Zu, to me they're very good looking and I really like the owners attitude. He just seems to have fun and doesn't mind bucking tradition. I can't speak to their sound as I haven't heard them.
Brett
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You will need to find an acceptable compromise between aesthetics and performance. Most speakers will need to be away from the walls for best results, aside from Audio Note or corner horns.
Since you are not too far, you may want to hold off buying unseen or unheard and wait for Capital AudioFest in November. http://www.capitalaudiofest.com/
Spend some time listening to the various offerings, even if they are beyond your budget. Knowing what you want can go a long way in saving you money down the road by getting off the speaker buying merry go round.
Check out offerings from Salk, who makes some beautiful looking and sounding speakers , the same goes for Volti, which may be too big for your needs but well worth hearing to calibrate your ears to what you want as opposed to what you can afford or will put up with in size.
Zu and Odyssey is another possibility. I dont see Salk on the exhibitor list yet, he usually comes, its still early, time for other exhibitors to sign on.
Above all, have fun and keep your ears and mind open to new possibilities.
Regards,
Greg
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Try Ohm speakers, they come with 120 day audition:
http://ohmspeaker.com/
Great yourtube review:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_8xUDYBgZQ
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If you can find these.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/stratamini/stratamini.html
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And these.
http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/onix-reference-3-speakers-11-2004.html
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I'm sorry if I misstated the Zu models...most are over your stated budget new, but check out them out on hifishark. There's not much of a selection used for sale at this moment, but if you look at the sold/expired listings you'll see several models have been listed or sold under $2,000.
Two things I like about Zu, to me they're very good looking and I really like the owners attitude. He just seems to have fun and doesn't mind bucking tradition. I can't speak to their sound as I haven't heard them.
Brett
No doubt that Sean is a cool dude. If you're buying a speaker based on owners attitude then look no further. If you're looking for a great sounding speaker that has the measurements to back it up, look elsewhere.
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With your asymmetrical setup with chairs off to the side my first thought went to omni directional speakers.
Most speakers made these days have a focused sound field but it looks like you would be happy with a room full of sound.
The Ohm speakers mentioned above are one example in the affordable price range.
At the bust the budget range is the MBL 121 Compact. I have heard the big MBL speakers many times and the sound is always room filling, spacious and excellent.
(http://img.ukaudiomart.com/uploads/large/1212798-pair-of-mbl-121-loudspeakers-new-condition.jpg)
Of course you could make the speakers almost disappear by putting a pair of Bose 901's on top of the bookcase.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41ygyHL3wYL.jpg)
Tone Audio has a review of the Bose 901
http://www.tonepublications.com/review/we-review-the-bose-901/ (http://www.tonepublications.com/review/we-review-the-bose-901/)
"After extensive listening, the Bose 901s strike me as being damn good."
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Or just buy these Salk Silks ASAP and be done with your search.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=151504.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=151504.0)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165442)
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No doubt that Sean is a cool dude. If you're buying a speaker based on owners attitude then look no further. If you're looking for a great sounding speaker that has the measurements to back it up, look elsewhere.
Kinda what I've heard, there doesn't seem to be much of a middle ground between Zu fans/critics.
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Kinda what I've heard, there doesn't seem to be much of a middle ground between Zu fans/critics.
+1.
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A very large majority of speakers need room to breathe, and sound best when well away from wall surfaces.
Only a very few are designed specifically to function optimally when pushed as close as you want. Wilson Duettes come to mind; Neat Iota Alpha might work too. Some others are designed to be placed close to corners, but if you have seven walls, you don't have conventional corners with intersecting walls. A lot of people are listening to speakers in suboptimal positions because of non-audio related reasons, often "domestic" in nature...
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Thanks to everyone who offered helpful and relevant replies to my dilemma :)
99% of speakers are designed to function best away from walls, so move the speakers out at least 3 feet from walls
How do you guys get the women in your lives to 1) get rid of their favorite furniture and 2) permit speakers to be situated out in the middle of the room? Sure you can do this in your 'man caves' but don't you want decent sound in your other rooms too?
So I should probably cut the rear-port speakers off my list, huh. I've seen recommendations that speakers should be located five feet from the wall behind. Whose living room can accommodate that?? How far is it then to the listening spot?
https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=speakers&m=355798
I'm sorry if I misstated the Zu models...most are over your stated budget new, but check out them out on hifishark. There's not much of a selection used for sale at this moment, but if you look at the sold/expired listings you'll see several models have been listed or sold under $2,000.
Two things I like about Zu, to me they're very good looking and I really like the owners attitude. He just seems to have fun and doesn't mind bucking tradition. I can't speak to their sound as I haven't heard them.
Not at all--Zu do offer a 'Dirty Weekend' model well within my price range. Very interesting stuff and I agree about the owner's attitude.
http://www.zuaudio.com/loudspeakers/omen-dirty-weekend-2
Sounds like it's something I should audition before buying. Suddenly I hear screams of "You should audition any speaker before buying!!!" but I'm a big believer in hearing the speakers in your space with your music, and not everyone facilitates that. Notwithstanding, I've got three tower pairs here or on their way and may wait a bit before buying another set or two. I can always use the rejects somewhere, or sell them, or in some cases return them. Zu says "60-day 100% satisfaction guarantee and we pay return shipping." Not bad.
If you can find these.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/stratamini/stratamini.html
And these.
http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/onix-reference-3-speakers-11-2004.html
Thanks
A very large majority of speakers need room to breathe, and sound best when well away from wall surfaces.
Only a very few are designed specifically to function optimally when pushed as close as you want. Wilson Duettes come to mind; Neat Iota Alpha might work too. Some others are designed to be placed close to corners, but if you have seven walls, you don't have conventional corners with intersecting walls. A lot of people are listening to speakers in suboptimal positions because of non-audio related reasons, often "domestic" in nature...
Exactly. If I can find speakers that aren't 15-20" deep it'll be easier to bring them away from the walls. But no way am I going to be able to do three or more feet. The Duette is fascinating, what with the user-configurable tweeter resistor and such. I didn't know that mfr before though I recognize a couple of their wilder designs. I'll add them to my long list of speakers under consideration for my next purchase.
Meanwhile, about speaker aesthetics....if the right Salk towers come up on the resale market (or Salk Certified) I may be done.
Thanks again for all the advice.
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My recommendation would be to learn how to interpret measurements. A few manufacturers produce complete sets of polar data. This data has the capability to give you an great idea as to how a speaker will sound in most environments. Without good measurements you are going to be selecting based on reviews, marketing based hyperbole, fancy cabinets and designers thoughts.
The faster you can get into what actually makes a speaker consistently sound good the more money and time you will save. If you truly want to 'end' your speaker circle then I would highly recommend you do some healthy reading on the science behind things. Some starting recommendations would be from Toole, Olive and Harman International.
My humble .02
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How do you guys get the women in your lives to 1) get rid of their favorite furniture and 2) permit speakers to be situated out in the middle of the room? Sure you can do this in your 'man caves' but don't you want decent sound in your other rooms too?
Not at all--Zu do offer a 'Dirty Weekend' model well within my price range. Very interesting stuff and I agree about the owner's attitude.
http://www.zuaudio.com/loudspeakers/omen-dirty-weekend-2
Sounds like it's something I should audition before buying.
#1, get rid of the wife, makes speaker placement so much easier. I don't listen to music in the living room so anything that works for movies is fine and placement is relatively unimportant. In my dedicated listening room (the den) speakers are well away from the front wall and measured to within 1/16". In your case compromises must be made so, for myself, I wouldn't invest much in speakers that can't be placed optimally.
Sean Casey of Zu is a great guy with an interesting history. I couldn't recommend him more highly, so it's with regret that I never got his speakers. I get it that he's looking for a very dynamic, lifelike sound, but it just never suited my taste. But people that buy his speakers love them and they will play fairly close to a wall, so it could be a solution for you.
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Most audiophiles are "gear-heads" who overbuy gear for the given room. The listening environment cannot be ignored if you want good sound. As an architect you know the ancient Greeks developed their "Golden Greek Rectangle" (5 x 8 ratio) that was deemed visually pleasing, but more importantly minimized echo. You are in the minority, prioritizing aesthetics, don't seem to have any direction on what you want sonically, and have serious domestic approval challenges, so I recommend not buying a in-room audio system.
If you're serious about listening use headphones. For less than 1% of the cost for an in-room system you can keep your sense of proper aesthetics and domestic tranquility for sound that would surpass what you could ever do with your aesthetic/room concerns. A friend is currently between listening rooms so is back to headphones use that, minus soundstage and bass feel, matches his $6000 system for $20 based on using his iPhone 6.
For background listening, just pick up a Bluesound or Sonus wireless/powered speaker. Either will sound as good as pushing speakers against the wall, and blocking with plants/furniture.
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Sorry but your room setup is just not proper for any speaker IMHO. So your dilemma is not speaker choice it is reality, the room location is just not helping. If anything as JLM stated headphones just may be your nirvana.
The wife factor or decorating factor is a real life issue for most. Could you transform your HT setup to play two channel as well ? Anyway good luck.
charles
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#1, get rid of the wife, makes speaker placement so much easier.
You might be an audiophile if....
:lol:
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Several of the people who have responded are vastly more in tune than I am to what's on the market now so that may mean I have an inappropriate offering here.
Nonetheless, I shall proceed with my plan. You have indicated that you listen nearly exclusively to digital streaming.Wouldn't that put you in a very good compromise position? Consider a pair of KEF LS 50W. They are very attractive, have notoriously good sound, require no additional electronics or speaker wire, and provide a sub output.
The only potential objection I can imagine is the color of the KEF driver might be a bit vivid for wifey. If so, I should think you could fashion a small, acoustically transparent cover.
The compromise notion comes from the KEFs being wireless and relatively compact. You still need wired AC, of course, but otherwise these are definitely minimal size. BTW, there are settings on the back that allow for varying placements, including against the wall.
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That is all true if you trust reviews on digital audio review, part time audiophile and the like which you shouldnt. I'm not saying it is not a good product I'm saying the above mentioned are not to be blindly trusted, ever.
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#1, get rid of the wife, makes speaker placement so much easier. I don't listen to music in the living room so anything that works for movies is fine and placement is relatively unimportant. In my dedicated listening room (the den) speakers are well away from the front wall and measured to within 1/16". In your case compromises must be made so, for myself, I wouldn't invest much in speakers that can't be placed optimally.
Sean Casey of Zu is a great guy with an interesting history. I couldn't recommend him more highly, so it's with regret that I never got his speakers. I get it that he's looking for a very dynamic, lifelike sound, but it just never suited my taste. But people that buy his speakers love them and they will play fairly close to a wall, so it could be a solution for you.
Yep, and that glass bookcase in between is a disaster (acoustically speaking) as well ......
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From above,speakers need room to breathe I was plenty happy with near field small stereo roo. But for many many years i wanted my Clements in the living room.Had been looking for amp on and off. Got a QED integrated right here for $50. Jumped on it. Its old i had never heard of company. I still have amp,pre amp cd player in small room. I dont go in themuch cause the qed just rocks the speakers and im using a car cd player. Coundnt be happier. Those Clements still blow me away. Plenty happy with finally getting them into a much much bigger .placed horizontal on long wall Plus dont get in small room just because im using thos little pioneers. As expected no comparison in sound,pioneers are good,but obviously you cant compare the two.
I'll add pics sometime if i can figure it out.
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As I and others have stated, most speakers need room to breathe. I just measured, and the closest point of my angled-back cabinets to the wall behind is 36". This is one reason (among many) people have "man caves". Set up a secondary system in the living room for background listening, and take over a spare bedroom, basement or whatever where you can have a proper set-up without people tripping over them. Secondary system also allows you to cycle out last year's primary system. :roll:
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You might be an audiophile if....
:lol:
(http://i.imgur.com/jtHbm7v.jpg)
I'm writing that AudioWood guy a note tonight. See how busy he is. Though, I wonder, would it be wiser to order from Selah or Salk where there's more specific audio expertise on board? I'm also ordering HTD L3 Towers just so I have something to listen to while I take (much) more time to buy a serious pair. They're not particularly attractive but their macassar ebony veneers are to die for. Further, I really am taking everything everyone said about speaker placement to heart. Working my way through the speaker placement thread here which I hadn't even seen before. And will visit the room-acoustics forum too.
Now can someone tell me why bookshelf speakers would have rear-facing ports? I guess those aren't supposed to be placed in bookshelves? Just bought some for my bedroom bookcases and yeah, you guessed it.
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Now can someone tell me why bookshelf speakers would have rear-facing ports? I guess those aren't supposed to be placed in bookshelves? Just bought some for my bedroom bookcases and yeah, you guessed it.
"Bookshelf" has come simply to mean "small", not designed for or actually intended to be used on bookshelves! They have been voiced to sound right when at seated ear height and 2-3 feet from front and side walls. Some that were voiced to sound as intended when on bookshelves (and come to mind) were the old AR 4X, one of the small Missions, Yamaha NS-10s and, believe it or not, the NS-1000. Obviously the NS-1000 was not intended to be placed on a bookshelf, but it was voiced to sound balanced when very near the front wall, firing straight ahead and elevated only about 10 inches from the floor. When placed in the contemporary fashion, higher and out into the room, the bass is thinner than the designer intended because it lacks 'room gain'.
Small sealed boxes (acoustic suspension) are most likely to sound good backed up to a wall (but not two walls and certainly not two walls and a ceiling!).
You might also consider the Magnepan MC1 which is intended to be wall mounted (and can be folded flat against the wall to disappear when not in use) and the DWM bass panel which can be disguised in a number of ways, some shown here: http://www.magnepan.com/DWM_and_DW_1_Woofers
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Now can someone tell me why bookshelf speakers would have rear-facing ports? I guess those aren't supposed to be placed in bookshelves? Just bought some for my bedroom bookcases and yeah, you guessed it.
As Russell explained, the name doesn't always match with function. Indeed you can find many "bookshelf" speakers with rear ports.
IMHO, a speaker that must be placed close to a wall which is going to reflect nearly everything, should be highly forward directional, with suppressed rear radiation. Pretty much the polar opposite of what has been recommended (no pun intended). :wink:
The name for such a speaker is a cardioid. An example of this type shown here http://www.audioxpress.com/article/fulcrum-acoustic-unveils-new-ccx-subcardioid-coaxial-loudspeaker (http://www.audioxpress.com/article/fulcrum-acoustic-unveils-new-ccx-subcardioid-coaxial-loudspeaker)
(https://cdn.xingosoftware.com/audioxpress/images/fetch/w_765,h_483,c_fit/http://www.audioxpress.com/assets/upload/images/1/20170718171702_FulcrumAcoustic-CCX1295HorPolarRespWeb.jpg)
(0 is front, 180 is rear, looking from above at pattern)
I'm also ordering HTD L3 Towers just so I have something to listen to
Though no measurements, that speaker does appear to have some forward directivity control via the horn tweeter and slightly horn loaded mid.
You may have made a wise choice, IMO.
cheers,
AJ
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Buy speakers that your wife is likely to pronounce "cute" and you probably can get them approved even in rooms who do not have "cute" anywhere else.
Or approach mounting from a different perspective; round globes in paintable or factory colours/finishes such as KEF, Gallo, and others come to mind. Hang them from the ceiling if you want; ideal room placement with a compromise in ideal height placement works quite well.
You have a creative problem (as in the self-annoited creative one needs to be pursueded, and that person is not you) so you need a creative solution. If you stubbornly live in a "boxes in the living room" world, you are not going anywhere.
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Not sure what your budget is, but Larsen speakers are actually designed to be placed against the wall. They come at three price points and in four finishes:
http://www.larsenhifi.com/en/larsen6.htm
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Not sure what your budget is, but Larsen speakers are actually designed to be placed against the wall. They come at three price points and in four finishes:
http://www.larsenhifi.com/en/larsen6.htm
I remember seeing them at Capital Audiofest last year.
https://youtu.be/mOkCiw2015U
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Not sure what your budget is, but Larsen speakers are actually designed to be placed against the wall. They come at three price points and in four finishes:
http://www.larsenhifi.com/en/larsen6.htm
https://www.stereophile.com/content/larsen-hifi-8-loudspeaker-measurements
Best,
Anand.
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https://www.stereophile.com/content/larsen-hifi-8-loudspeaker-measurements (https://www.stereophile.com/content/larsen-hifi-8-loudspeaker-measurements)
Best,
Anand.
More amusing...
https://www.stereophile.com/content/larsen-hifi-8-loudspeaker-manufacturers-comment
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More amusing...
https://www.stereophile.com/content/larsen-hifi-8-loudspeaker-manufacturers-comment
Only amusing if you believe current science has all the answers and one listens through an oscilloscope. True science always questions and never teaches by rote.
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Only amusing if you believe current science has all the answers and one listens through an oscilloscope. True science always questions and never teaches by rote.
Well said JLM.
Ever wonder why 2 well measuring speakers can sound so different ?
Measuring tools are crude tools designed to get you to the church parking lot but not thru the front door and certainly not not to the pew.
Consider the same speaker measured twice each time driven by a different amp, one tube one solid state.
The 2 amps frequency response within audibility is most likely within a percent of a db, and accounting for the amp/speaker impedance interaction, the frequency plot of the measured speaker would be very close regardless of the driving amp.
The tools cant hear any difference..our ears can easily hear a difference.
The human ear/brain in a complicated interface that has evolved to allow us to interpret slight changes in phase direction and intensity. Recognizing the direction and intensity of the sound of a foot cracking a twig in the forest could well mean the difference between life and death for early humans.
These tools we invent are more sensitive and accurate than the human ear for sure, but dumb none the less, they have no ability to interpret the information in a meaningful way in regards to our perception of the sound.
I have no doubt the future will hold great advances in the interpretation of meaningful data as it relates to how we experience sound, but for now I will trust my ears over a tool any day of the week.
Greg
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Only amusing if you believe current science has all the answers and one listens through an oscilloscope. True science always questions and never teaches by rote.
Good thing speaker measurements aren't done with an oscilloscope. :duh:
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Well said JLM.
Ever wonder why 2 well measuring speakers can sound so different ?
Measuring tools are crude tools designed to get you to the church parking lot but not thru the front door and certainly not not to the pew.
Consider the same speaker measured twice each time driven by a different amp, one tube one solid state.
The 2 amps frequency response within audibility is most likely within a percent of a db, and accounting for the amp/speaker impedance interaction, the frequency plot of the measured speaker would be very close regardless of the driving amp.
The tools cant hear any difference..our ears can easily hear a difference.
The human ear/brain in a complicated interface that has evolved to allow us to interpret slight changes in phase direction and intensity. Recognizing the direction and intensity of the sound of a foot cracking a twig in the forest could well mean the difference between life and death for early humans.
These tools we invent are more sensitive and accurate than the human ear for sure, but dumb none the less, they have no ability to interpret the information in a meaningful way in regards to our perception of the sound.
I have no doubt the future will hold great advances in the interpretation of meaningful data as it relates to how we experience sound, but for now I will trust my ears over a tool any day of the week.
Greg
The science for speaker measurements is clear. You might want to learn about it as a speaker "designer".
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The science for speaker measurements is clear. You might want to learn about it as a speaker "designer".
I think that globe on your shoulders is cooling, Mr. "Science".
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The science for speaker measurements is clear. You might want to learn about it as a speaker "designer".
OUCH !!
I guess I am supposed to be offended by such a statement.
Sorry to inform you I am not.
I am very proud of what I have accomplished in driver design, and I am proud of how I have gotten there, by countless hours of building drivers and exploring alternative methods, and attempting to understand how and why they do what they do. And not just reading books written by others who say this is how it must be done and feeling satisfied when I reach the same conclusions they have reached.
Too bad your not closer to Long Island NY...In the event you do come up this way or come to CAF 2017 be sure to look me up.
I would be glad to give you a lesson in speaker designing by ear first and measurement second.
But then again considering your stubbornness to accept something different, it would probably fall on deaf ears.
Sleep well, I am sure your system measures perfectly !!
Greg
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The science for speaker measurements is clear. You might want to learn about it as a speaker "designer".
You are obviously correct and many measurement devices and equipment nowadays work down to atomic level and for someone to say their ears are more dependable that measurement is just pathetic. The parameters for a speaker's performance could, and have, been defined and of course different people could, and have, set different criteria for what is ideal performance; which as long as they are well defined and communicated, is not a problem at all.
the pooint is that the criteria for how a peaker should preform has no direct correlation with our enjoyment. It obviously happens all the time that i prefer a peaker with a measured output that is way too non linear to be labled a good reproducer of all frequencies betwenn 20 to 20khz. So these people need to say that they prefer to design and buy what sounds sweeter to their ears rather than my ears are better the measurement equipment.
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You are obviously correct and many measurement devices and equipment nowadays work down to atomic level and for someone to say their ears are more dependable that measurement is just pathetic.
Pathetic ?
Wow...now I know why I dont post very much on these forums and when I do I mostly post about benign topics.
Is it too difficult for certain types on these forums to refrain from personal attacks ?
I suppose debating different points of view with maturity and congeniality are alien concepts to some.
Greg
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This (good) thread seems to be getting off on the exit to the Intergalactic Wastebin; perhaps we can still pull back onto the main road.
To those who accuse Greg (or any other designer) of, essentially, not knowing what they're doing, I would ask: Where's your speaker design? In speakers transducers more than any other audio component, measurements tell a story- just not the whole story. Making the judgements about the missing pieces are where the 'art' lives. There are compromises that have to be made, and different judgments about what those compromises should be- which is why one speaker ends up as a planar, one as a horn, etc etc. I have heard recordings of Casals and Yo-Yo Ma playing the same pieces. They sound and feel different, even though they're playing the same notes. It's much the same with speakers- I've heard Greg's planars, they sound very good; I've heard the Larsen's, they sound very good, but they don't sound 'the same'.
If the OP needs speakers that can be placed close to the wall, planars are probably not optimal- as Greg and other planar purveyors would probably be the first to admit. The Larsens, whose design springs from some of the same design goals as the Allison speakers of yore, would probably be a good choice, but did the OP mention a budget at any point?
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Pathetic ?
Wow...now I know why I dont post very much on these forums and when I do I mostly post about benign topics.
Is it too difficult for certain types on these forums to refrain from personal attacks ?
I suppose debating different points of view with maturity and congeniality are alien concepts to some.
Greg
well i apologize. i actually am not familiar with you or your work, i meant in general with regards to people who reject the science. didnt mean to make it a personal attack. i am sure you do fine work.
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He didn't 'reject science' (the way I read his posts, anyway). It's been a truism since the dawn of hi-fi that it's possible to design a speaker that measures flat- and sounds terrible. Maggies don't 'measure' particularly well, but the've had a devoted following for 40+ years.
So what was the topic here, anyway...?
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He didn't 'reject science' (the way I read his posts, anyway). It's been a truism since the dawn of hi-fi that it's possible to design a speaker that measures flat- and sounds terrible. Maggies don't 'measure' particularly well, but the've had a devoted following for 40+ years.
So what was the topic here, anyway...?
Yes db, we have strayed off topic...passionate bunch for sure.
Good thing, keeps the hobby alive.
I agree many colors of sound out there can find a home for many different tastes.
Maggie got me early on, I owned MG3a and 2.5R, because of them I started building my own.
I gave the Maggies to my dad, they gave him years of enjoyment.
Greg
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I guess, on the 'measurements'/objective-vs-subjective thing, I would say that making a speaker 'good' is a science, making a speaker 'great' is an art.
Dunno if that helps the OP (if he's even still here) or not. Probably not. Think I'd get a decent 3.1 setup if I were him and leave it at that.
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OUCH !!
I guess I am supposed to be offended by such a statement.
Greg
Not at all since it wasn't an insult. You are obviously allowed to do what you want. I'm just stating a fact that there is a direct correlation to sound regardless of what you or anyone else says. Dr. Floyd Toole, Dr. Earl Geddes, Dr. Sean Olive and the list goes on to those who have written numerous papers on this. Further, these companies have an incredible amount of resource that you truly can't even fathom unless you have seen it in person like I have made the investment to do so. Harman has invested more money in the subjective/objective world that would blow minds if you could see it. I suggest you explore beyond what you think you know.
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I suggest you explore beyond what you think you know.
I make a habit of it, as I hope you do.
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Thanks for everyone making nice, shows great maturity, I'm proud of you guys.
I don't let the hammer tell me what wood to buy, and I wouldn't ever let measurements decide what speaker I should buy. However both are very useful and necessary tools to complete the task.
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Thanks for everyone making nice, shows great maturity, I'm proud of you guys.
I don't let the hammer tell me what wood to buy, and I wouldn't ever let measurements decide what speaker I should buy. However both are very useful and necessary tools to complete the task.
That's deep !!!
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GTAudio makes a good speaker. For me it is the end result of the product. If the designer uses science or not means nothing to me. What means everything to me is ? How does it sound. Period end of story. That goes for any audio product.
We are not designing race cars which require critical structural design and oodles of math formulas. In speaker design after the basic math it is listening to such and improving the sound. No worrying about if the wheels are gonna fly off.
charles
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Wow, who knew simply suggesting someone should check out a speaker would cause in such a sh*tstorm. Yikes.
FWIW, I loved the way the Larsen sounded when I heard them demoed, and if placement was an issue for me I could easily live with them. As for how they test, I don't care if they measure 6 on the Richter Scale or 9 with the Russian judge, as long as they deliver music in a way I enjoy, I'm happy.
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As for how they test, I don't care if they measure 6 on the Richter Scale or 9 with the Russian judge, as long as they deliver music in a way I enjoy, I'm happy.
Couldn't say it more tactfully.
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Not sure what your budget is, but Larsen speakers are actually designed to be placed against the wall. They come at three price points and in four finishes:
http://www.larsenhifi.com/en/larsen6.htm
Thanks very much for the info. Can't say I've ever heard of Larsen before. Looked at their 'Larsen 4' seriously. Sort of a fun little bugger! And thanks especially because it's obviously very relevant to my particular 'dilemma'. I came this close last night to buying a pair of Thiel CS2.4 speakers. Just thought they were so cool, my trigger finger is still itching since my HTDs haven't arrived yet, and they got great reviews. Plus they were sort of in my budget being around $2K. Then read some more and saw that they really really need to be 2-3 ft from the 'front wall'. Now where did anyone get that idea 8)
ETA: My natural impulse is to 'defend' the Larsens even though I know next to nothing about them; much less how they sound, beyond others' descriptions. Simply because their creators took the time to address a real issue: many (dare I say most) people actually do push their speakers up against the wall. Obviously not audiophiles, but 'normal' people. So that's the real world for most of us among the Great Unwashed, and why on earth shouldn't more manufacturers deal with it?
(Someone also please tell me why speakers with no drivers or even ports/passive radiators on the back are so sensitive to placement near walls? The sound is radiating from the front. I do have a rudimentary knowledge of physics and studied wave theory way back when. Okay, you just don't want a 'too-soon' reflection of sound waves, even if they have emanated from the front drivers. I get that, but then I'm not sure how the Larsens address this. I'll have to read more. If a speaker is going to be located near a wall as in my horrifying photo, within eight inches for example, which is better: two inches? Four? Six? Eight? I should also state, though I'm not sure it matters, that the vast majority of my listening is classical and jazz at moderate levels.)
Next I'll venture into the Tube-o-phile Circle and ask about one of my cheap Chinese tube amps which is producing silibance on jazz bass notes :)
I know even less about tube amps than I know about speaker placement! Should be fun.
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I don't let the hammer tell me what wood to buy
And pants. I especially don't takes his advice on pants either.
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrn9b5m2Dx1qgwi7to1_250.gif)
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You might try these too. They're made to be placed near rear boundaries and designed by one of the (somewhat lesser known) legends from home audio's golden age. http://directacoustics.com/?page_id=16
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And pants. I especially don't takes his advice on pants either.
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrn9b5m2Dx1qgwi7to1_250.gif)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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(Someone also please tell me why speakers with no drivers or even ports/passive radiators on the back are so sensitive to placement near walls? The sound is radiating from the front.
My understanding is that although the drivers are in front the "wave launch" is still spherical in nature. Unless one is talking panel speakers like Magnepan, which are designed to "beam" to a certain extent to eliminate room interaction. AIUI etc. Line arrays like Carver's Amazing Linesource (http://www.bobcarvercorp.com/als) also have a different radiation pattern.
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You might try these too. They're made to be placed near rear boundaries and designed by one of the (somewhat lesser known) legends from home audio's golden age. http://directacoustics.com/?page_id=16
This would also be my recommendation.
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ETA: My natural impulse is to 'defend' the Larsens even though I know next to nothing about them; much less how they sound, beyond others' descriptions. Simply because their creators took the time to address a real issue: many (dare I say most) people actually do push their speakers up against the wall.
That's actually not the issue they were designed to address. The issue they were designed to solve is that most speakers- even those that 'measure' flat- don't deliver flat response in a real room. This territory was first 'worked' in pioneering work by Roy Allison over 40 years ago, and involves very specific relationships between the driver layouts, speaker location, and crossover points so as to reduce room effects on the frequency response as much as possible. It just happens that one of the ways he accomplished this was by placing the woofer as close as possible to a room boundary and setting the woofer/mid x-over frequency quite low. The theory is pretty complex and I'm sure I'm not explaining it adequately, but I do have a scan of the old Allison brochure which explained it at length if you'd like me to send it.
How did it sound? My Allison CD-8 not only sounded almost the same in every one of the rooms I had them in, but the same in any part of those rooms.
The Larsen reps only grudgingly admitted a kinship with the Allison concepts, but even though the execution is very different, the goals and underlying principles have a lot in common. Perhaps because Allisons used omni drivers (also explained in the brochure), the Larsen speakers probably don't share their limitless 'sweet spot')( I could open a closet door in front of my Model Four bookshelves and still have a stereo image!) and have a much more complex cabinet. But the design goals are the same: Flat response in a real-world room.
However, might I suggest that the amount of glass seen in the picture doesn't bode well for the best sound anyway, and wonder if somewhere else might be more practical as a listening space investment.
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My understanding is that although the drivers are in front the "wave launch" is still spherical in nature. Unless one is talking panel speakers like Magnepan, which are designed to "beam" to a certain extent to eliminate room interaction. AIUI etc. Line arrays like Carver's Amazing Linesource (http://www.bobcarvercorp.com/als) also have a different radiation pattern.
Dispersion is related to driver size versus the length of the sound wave (between peaks) being produced by said driver. If the driver size is significantly smaller than the length of the sound wave it will exhibit spherical dispersion, but as the length of the sound wave approaches the size of the driver the dispersion will reduce ("beam" like a flashlight). Sound waves in air near sea level travel at 13,200 inches per second. Divide that number by the frequency will produce the length of the sound wave. So a 13,000 Hz sound wave is roughly 1 inch long and beaming can be expected from a 1 inch wide dome tweeter. A 60 Hz sound wave is 220 inches (over 18 feet) long so a spherical dispersion can be expected from any sized woofer.
In Archguy's example the spherical dispersion of bass waves would be greatly compromised to between 1/2 space on the left speaker and roughly 1/8th space on the right side. This means that bass response would be exaggerated, especially on the right channel. (Think of talking through a megaphone to funnel and thereby amplifying the sound.)
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Bottom lines:
1.) There is no perfect loudspeaker.
2.) The room and speaker/listening position setup have a much bigger effect on speaker performance than most would like to admit.
3.) Most audiophiles buy gear based at least in part on visual aspects and to be entertained versus to gain an accurate reproduction of what the recording professionals hear.
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The sound is radiating from the front. I do have a rudimentary knowledge of physics and studied wave theory way back when.
That's good. Then hopefully you remember that when a wave is large relative to a boundary, it simply passes around it. The speaker drivers on front do radiate "forward" somewhat hemispherically (with cones/domes), but when the waves are large relative to baffle and/or the drivers are radiating frequencies larger than the diaphragm, they simply wrap around the baffle and radiate in all directions, including backwards. The smaller the driver diameters/narrower baffle, the more sound/frequencies going backward. That is precisely why I showed you the radiation pattern of a cardioid, which "nulls" to the rear, where the wall would be. A typical front mounted cone/dome box radiates a lot of sound backwards. That's why most generally recommend not placing too close to front wall for good imaging, etc.
You'll see when you get the HTDs and experiment a bit with placement.
cheers,
AJ
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There should be nothing between the speakers. If you must, keep it low. The high reflective bookcase with vibrating glass is not good.
Both speakers should see the same room characteristics. If one has a wall behind it and a wall beside it, so should the other.
Do not have untreated sidewalls. Avoid sidewalls with windows.
Do not have speaker firing across objects (sofa) on their way to the listening position.
Do not automatically put speakers close to the front wall. They will usually sound best a ways out.
It is a beautiful room but I wouldn't recommend investing any money into the audio equipment until the room issues can be worked out or a new room found.
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I think noway sums up the realities of the situation: Beautiful room, but a tough go for sound unless some fairly significant changes are made.
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You know, I've gotten some very pleasing living room sound with some old Wharfdale monitors/bookshelf speakers on actual bookshelves, powered by a basic modern $300 HT receiver from Best Buy - with a Dayton 12" sub in the corner. This has been my parents' setup for years since I set them up with it. And when I visit over holidays, and we play some kind of background music or a concert on TV/DVD, it fills the room, is articulate with good detail, has an attractive warmth to the midrange, and is generally engaging.
I think that's all the OP is looking for, and I believe can totally be achieved in his room with modest investment relative to audiophile standards. No, the setup will not soundstage like the devil, and there may be some image smearing due to that cabinet. But it won't be the end of the world, and can result in a very satisfying sound as long as critical listening is not his passion (which he's clearly stated is not his thing).
I say get some Clue speakers - which are small monitor-style speakers designed for relatively full bass response when placed directly against a wall. Put them on some nice solid stands that elevate the sound above that lounge. Hook up some of those tube amps, or get a decent SS integrated amp with tone controls. Definitely consider a subwoofer you can place over in that right hand corner out of the way and hidden by a plant or something.
If not the Clue, then some Salks. Actually, some Salk Songtowers would probably look and sound great there. But as a jazz lover, I'd highly recommend calling Louis Chocos of Omega speakers - his single driver speakers are definitely meant for jazz lovers. And some of his designs are also meant for placement along a wall - I believe the Super 3XRS, but maybe others. He does really nice wood cabinet finishes.
Regarding the rear ports - there's nothing to stop you from putting a rear ported speaker up against a wall. But yeah, you'll be attenuating the output from that port for sure. Which will be in the lower frequencies. So, again, highlights the importance of considering a subwoofer out of the way in your plans.
I've mentioned all of the above with the caveat that the OP is willing to accept sonic compromises and not get the most out of his speaker investments. Yes, up against a wall will almost always compromise imaging/soundstaging, and depending on the design also will muck up low frequency overall responses. However, these compromises don't mean he won't have ANY imaging/soundstaging, and it doesn't mean he can't have a healthy bass response if other active measures are considered.
Just my attempt at a sane real-world response to the OP's genuine interest in fitting a system into his nicely appointed real-world room.
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Just my attempt at a sane real-world response to the OP's genuine interest in fitting a system into his nicely appointed real-world room.
Thanks, your post is nearly worth the whole thread! I will look up the ones you mention, especially the Omegas. Meanwhile I wish we could blindfold a couple contributors here and bring them in for a listen. I'd stake my bottom dollar that they'd refuse to believe the sound quality is actually in this room. Then again, I've only shown part of the room so far 8)
And I don't dare show my HT-type room! I'm not in there much lately anyway. Vastly prefer music to video. Anyway....I'm certainly not considering rear ports and I do roll off the bass a bit (or a lot) depending on the music. I doubt that'll surprise anyone here.
You'll see when you get the HTDs and experiment a bit with placement.
Thanks & understood re: the various points you make.
I think noway sums up the realities of the situation: Beautiful room, but a tough go for sound unless some fairly significant changes are made.
Please tell me this is not what you have in mind, and I don't mean the pipe
(http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/a9f1624945f35e7ec3dd14d299bf263e)
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You know, I've gotten some very pleasing living room sound with some old Wharfdale monitors/bookshelf speakers on actual bookshelves, powered by a basic modern $300 HT receiver from Best Buy - with a Dayton 12" sub in the corner. This has been my parents' setup for years since I set them up with it. And when I visit over holidays, and we play some kind of background music or a concert on TV/DVD, it fills the room, is articulate with good detail, has an attractive warmth to the midrange, and is generally engaging.
I think that's all the OP is looking for, and I believe can totally be achieved in his room with modest investment relative to audiophile standards. No, the setup will not soundstage like the devil, and there may be some image smearing due to that cabinet. But it won't be the end of the world, and can result in a very satisfying sound as long as critical listening is not his passion (which he's clearly stated is not his thing).
I say get some Clue speakers - which are small monitor-style speakers designed for relatively full bass response when placed directly against a wall. Put them on some nice solid stands that elevate the sound above that lounge. Hook up some of those tube amps, or get a decent SS integrated amp with tone controls. Definitely consider a subwoofer you can place over in that right hand corner out of the way and hidden by a plant or something.
If not the Clue, then some Salks. Actually, some Salk Songtowers would probably look and sound great there. But as a jazz lover, I'd highly recommend calling Louis Chocos of Omega speakers - his single driver speakers are definitely meant for jazz lovers. And some of his designs are also meant for placement along a wall - I believe the Super 3XRS, but maybe others. He does really nice wood cabinet finishes.
Regarding the rear ports - there's nothing to stop you from putting a rear ported speaker up against a wall. But yeah, you'll be attenuating the output from that port for sure. Which will be in the lower frequencies. So, again, highlights the importance of considering a subwoofer out of the way in your plans.
I've mentioned all of the above with the caveat that the OP is willing to accept sonic compromises and not get the most out of his speaker investments. Yes, up against a wall will almost always compromise imaging/soundstaging, and depending on the design also will muck up low frequency overall responses. However, these compromises don't mean he won't have ANY imaging/soundstaging, and it doesn't mean he can't have a healthy bass response if other active measures are considered.
Just my attempt at a sane real-world response to the OP's genuine interest in fitting a system into his nicely appointed real-world room.
I agree with most of these points. For many of us our listening rooms have to pull double duty, and oftentimes sound quality is expected to take a back seat to other priorities. In this room, placement of the speakers and other furnishings will never allow the best sound, but may allow for good enough sound. If I were approaching this problem I would focus first on getting the tone and frequency response right. Not matter how well a speaker images, if the tone is wrong the sound is wrong. And in a setup where we can't get good imaging, tone is all we have.
I will jump on the bandwagon and recommend Omega Speakers as well. Louis will put the port on the front or back based on your preference. They have great tone, run well on a little power, and thrive on decent tubes. A pair of Super 3 XRS and a tube integrated would ring in at about $2k. If you can spend a little more money, a pair of the new Junior 8's would be even better.
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A 60 Hz sound wave is 220 inches (over 18 feet) long so a spherical dispersion can be expected from any sized woofer.
Infinite baffle speakers/sub address that?
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Infinite baffle speakers/sub address that?
Good point, with infinite baffle you automatically get a semi-spherical (or less) presentation. Realize that in-wall speakers behave as infinite baffle as well. But the size of the sound wave cannot change for a given frequency and transfer medium.
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There should be nothing between the speakers. If you must, keep it low. The high reflective bookcase with vibrating glass is not good.
Both speakers should see the same room characteristics. If one has a wall behind it and a wall beside it, so should the other.
Do not have untreated sidewalls. Avoid sidewalls with windows.
Do not have speaker firing across objects (sofa) on their way to the listening position.
Do not automatically put speakers close to the front wall. They will usually sound best a ways out.
It is a beautiful room but I wouldn't recommend investing any money into the audio equipment until the room issues can be worked out or a new room found.
+1
Up to a year ago I used a small rack (Ikea night stand) with the near-field setup in my dedicated room, but found a piece of leftover shelving in the garage, and having a small/simple system added spikes and moved my gear to the floor (about 4 feet from the front wall). So it looks like a very wide/cheap amp stand that is shared by multiple pieces. My inspiration was reading about reducing bass energy (that collects at surface intersections) away from my gear but the real benefit is that now I have a clear space for the soundstage to more fully develop. I'd heard the same effect years ago in a small/casual HT system that had a CRT TV but didn't expect similar results with my speakers roughly 6 feet from the front wall.
Additional benefits: shorter speaker cable needed; full access to the back of the gear; easier to keep all the wiring apart; can reach the gear from my MacBook Air laptop (that I use for music source) with a 10 ft. USB cable.
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OUCH !!
I guess I am supposed to be offended by such a statement.
Sorry to inform you I am not.
I am very proud of what I have accomplished in driver design, and I am proud of how I have gotten there, by countless hours of building drivers and exploring alternative methods, and attempting to understand how and why they do what they do. And not just reading books written by others who say this is how it must be done and feeling satisfied when I reach the same conclusions they have reached.
Too bad your not closer to Long Island NY...In the event you do come up this way or come to CAF 2017 be sure to look me up.
I would be glad to give you a lesson in speaker designing by ear first and measurement second.
But then again considering your stubbornness to accept something different, it would probably fall on deaf ears.
Sleep well, I am sure your system measures perfectly !!
Greg
Greg's speakers are a wonder IMHO. Mated with a good tubed amp or SS beast one is in for a treat. I have heard and seen all of GTA speakers from the get go. To date the latest and greatest. The tonality and harmonic structure are close to real life. Dynamic, explosive yet mature is character.
Other panel speakers can not match the sheer dynamics of this speaker. Like rock and planars ? this IS the speaker for you.
charles
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Bottom lines:
1.) There is no perfect loudspeaker.
2.) The room and speaker/listening position setup have a much bigger effect on speaker performance than most would like to admit.
3.) Most audiophiles buy gear based at least in part on visual aspects and to be entertained versus to gain an accurate reproduction of what the recording professionals hear.
+1.
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+1.
+2
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Take a look at Tekton Design. They will veneer to your choice. Even the Lore will blow the Polks away.