Axiom M80 V3 with My Bryston System - 'I cannot believe that this happened'

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DaveNote

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Dave, I listened to Lyle Lovett - North Dakota through my Axiom M22v3's.  What a great song.  Cheers!

Milford, glad you likemit. I have only one Lovett album. Big mistake. There's a lot of country and western stuff he does I don't care for, but some others I like a lot.

This one is Ballad of the Snow Leopard, which I heard for the first time tonight blew me away:

httrp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tdIkj_DJLQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

One more famous is his She's Already Made Up Her Mind.

Dave

DaveNote

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Dave,did you get the better woofers and the dual speaker wire inputs?
Thanks

bjski: I don't know exactly what you mean by better woofers. Axiom gives customers a choice of cast baskets or stamped steel. Axiom is very big on testing, and its tests say there is no detectable difference between them. But it knows some people want casts, so like a good and smart company, it offers them as an option. I bought the stamped steel baskets.

It also offers dual connections. There is a big debate about the merits of bi-wiring. I've done it, without noticieable effect. On the other hand I knew I would not be bi-amping. So I bought just the plain jane connections.

Dave

werd

bjski: I don't know exactly what you mean by better woofers. Axiom gives customers a choice of cast baskets or stamped steel. Axiom is very big on testing, and its tests say there is no detectable difference between them. But it knows some people want casts, so like a good and smart company, it offers them as an option. I bought the stamped steel baskets.

It also offers dual connections. There is a big debate about the merits of bi-wiring. I've done it, without noticieable effect. On the other hand I knew I would not be bi-amping. So I bought just the plain jane connections.

Dave

I would consider bywiring on those speakers if available. They use a more complicated speaker array with a subsequent x-over circuit But not if I am trying to keep the costs down while using a receiver.

milford3


DaveNote

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Those who have been following this topic since I posted my review of the M80s will have seen that I have compared them very favourably to my PMC MB2is. I have now listened to them for, I guess, more than 100 hours, and that opinion only has been reinforced. Growing accustomed to their sound, I prefer the M80s' high end and the bass; the high end is brighter than the MB2is, the way I like it, and the bass is tighter and more defined. The imaging is distinctly better IMO. I say this recognizing that the PMCs are terrific. I am certain that others do, and would prefer, their sound.

And now I have little doubt that M80s are "uber-revealing" compared to any speaker I've had, including the MB2is. But that quality, as is well-known, is double-edged. Good recordings sound better, but bad ones can sound awful. And I'm finding that a lot of recordings I formerly thought were good, aren't so good, and in certain passages, are very bad indeed.

In particular, on some recordings, on some passages, I have been hearing a kind of rasping, new to my ear, that until yesterday, I worried might be distortion caused by the M80s. It happens with some voices, some piano passages played in the upper registers, some sax, and some combination of instruments. The sound is unpleasant to my ear.

Yesterday, I tried these same recordings and passages on my MB2is, but this time at higher volumes, knowing that these speakers need to be cranked up to get them to work best. And there it was - the rasping sound, which I hadn't noticed before when I had listened to the MB2is at less than very high volume, which is my usual practice. Conclusion: the recordings are at fault, and the M80s don't need to be cranked up to produce it.

Readers of this topic also will have noticed that I have been a little shaken at the prospect of confronting the possibility that I might prefer the Axiom sound to the PMC sound, which in my case cost me many times more than the price of the M80s. I've asked, "Then what?"

The eventual decision, if I have to make it, could be a big one. Keep both, sell the MB2is, something else. Or, I might just get used to it; indeed, I probably will over time. But like Scarlett O'Hara, I'm going to think about a big decision "tomorrow."

Still, the occasional rasping, the byproduct of the M80s' extraordinarily faithful reproduction, is not pleasant to my ear. I am waiting to receive Axiom's DSP designed to improve the performance of the M80s, which should come to me in the next several weeks. It may soften the rasp or make it worse; can't know for sure now. 

In the interim, I want the choice of addressing that rasp until the DSP comes. My Bryston  preamp, like really good ones, has no tone controls. My lesser device, the Harmon Kardon (HK) receiver has old fashioned tone controls, and I've found that dialing back the treble softens the rasp, which helps me get past the recordings and passages I now find difficult. But as Axiom has made clear to me, although receivers do a good job with the M80s, they cannot bring the best out these speakers the way my Bryston would amps would.

So, as an interim step, I have decided for the next several weeks to use my big 7BSST2s and, at the same time, have access to the HK's treble control. Therefore, I've detached my MB2is from the 7BSST2s - "The horror, the horror" - it felt a bit like taking them off life support. I've hooked up the M80s to the 7BSST2s, and I've used the HK pre-out to connect the receiver to the 7BSST2s, which allows me to use the HK treble control when I need it. 

Not the ultimate solution. But one I can live with for the moment. The solution, if I can decide on one, thankfully, I can think about tomorrow.

Dave

werd

Just out of curiosity what source are you using upstairs? Also since you moved the Bryston Amps you may as well move the pre IMO and the source too. It sounds like the the big system is on hold. Curious about the pre amp in your upstairs system with the bcd


Tired yet?  Hehe

DaveNote

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Just out of curiosity what source are you using upstairs? Also since you moved the Bryston Amps you may as well move the pre IMO and the source too. It sounds like the the big system is on hold. Curious about the pre amp in your upstairs system with the bcd


Tired yet?  Hehe

I'm sorry, werd, I may not have made myself clear in the OP, and subsequent postings. I have two systems in one room. Until now, I've been using the M80s on the HK receiver and the MB2is on the main system, the one with all the Bryston amps and pre-amps. I have done a lot of connecting and reconnecting to compare the speakers, but today I opted for the HK pre-amp section and the 7BSST2 amps to drive the M80s. I could have tried to drive the MB2is from the HK's second set of speaker connections, but that would have been going backward, and risk clipping my PMC speakers. But I wanted, at least for now, to drive the M80s with the Bryston amps, and they have only one speaker connection. Had to make a choice, and this is the one I made pending the receipt of the DSP.

Hope this helps explain my setup.

Dave

sfraser

Davenote, interesting comments above regarding rasping etc. Have you ever analyzed your audio room in respect to frequency response? I wonder if certain frequency ranges might be a bit "hotter" than others causing some of the above mentioned issues? 

DaveNote

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Davenote, interesting comments above regarding rasping etc. Have you ever analyzed your audio room in respect to frequency response? I wonder if certain frequency ranges might be a bit "hotter" than others causing some of the above mentioned issues?

Haven't anayzed my room. My wife would say my head comes first. :D

You might be right.  However, I just detected today similar sounds in my car system which is a pretty good one, when playing in in higher volumes.

I'm wondering, therefore, if the source is distortion in the recording process, perhaps in microphones - what kind, how used?

Dave

werd

I'm sorry, werd, I may not have made myself clear in the OP, and subsequent postings. I have two systems in one room. Until now, I've been using the M80s on the HK receiver and the MB2is on the main system, the one with all the Bryston amps and pre-amps. I have done a lot of connecting and reconnecting to compare the speakers, but today I opted for the HK pre-amp section and the 7BSST2 amps to drive the M80s. I could have tried to drive the MB2is from the HK's second set of speaker connections, but that would have been going backward, and risk clipping my PMC speakers. But I wanted, at least for now, to drive the M80s with the Bryston amps, and they have only one speaker connection. Had to make a choice, and this is the one I made pending the receipt of the DSP.

Hope this helps explain my setup.

Dave

Oic.... Got ya. Abstinence will either make your heart fonder or clear up some confusion in what to do next. Hopefully the m80s come out on top so you can free up some cash.

DaveNote

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Oic.... Got ya. Abstinence will either make your heart fonder or clear up some confusion in what to do next. Hopefully the m80s come out on top so you can free up some cash.

Good observations, werd. My dilemma is this, perhaps. These are outrageously accurate speakers: my guess is that they are telling, unmercifully, the truth of what went into a recording. And as I've mentioned to someone today, it's like being in one of those fantasy movies where everyone has to tell the truth 24/7. It's usually good to tell the truth, but sometimes it can get ugly. I'm trying to deal with the M80s' relentless audio truth-telling.

Dave

werd

Good observations, werd. My dilemma is this, perhaps. These are outrageously accurate speakers: my guess is that they are telling, unmercifully, the truth of what went into a recording. And as I've mentioned to someone today, it's like being in one of those fantasy movies where everyone has to tell the truth 24/7. It's usually good to tell the truth, but sometimes it can get ugly. I'm trying to deal with the M80s' relentless audio truth-telling.

Dave

Bring it on!  Give me a sterile audio neutral sounding system stock and then tweak inwards (so to speak) and warm it up. Aside from the speaker position. Which is the biggest tweak and free you should look at cabling the bcd and as important racking it or platforms. (i am just trying to the get nasties out of the bcd). If its in the recording this harshness you dislike you won't mind if it isn't amplified with noise attached to it.

I spent a couple of years with my bcd and know how it sounds. I have always though that the only thing wrong with the BCD is brystons short and wide chassis. The piece likes to be mass loaded underneath or elevated. This stuff really helps with noise and glare getting amplified and getting rid of it.

Also mains cabling into the bcd is a must over stock. It's a place to start anyways.

Of course I am assuming you haven't done this yet and you may have, if so I don't know what to say about the added harshness.

DaveNote

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Bring it on!  Give me a sterile audio neutral sounding system stock and then tweak inwards (so to speak) and warm it up. Aside from the speaker position. Which is the biggest tweak and free you should look at cabling the bcd and as important racking it or platforms. (i am just trying to the get nasties out of the bcd). If its in the recording this harshness you dislike you won't mind if it isn't amplified with noise attached to it.

I spent a couple of years with my bcd and know how it sounds. I have always though that the only thing wrong with the BCD is brystons short and wide chassis. The piece likes to be mass loaded underneath or elevated. This stuff really helps with noise and glare getting amplified and getting rid of it.

Also mains cabling into the bcd is a must over stock. It's a place to start anyways.

Of course I am assuming you haven't done this yet and you may have, if so I don't know what eto say about the added harshness.

Thanks for the suggestions, werd, but I must give them a pass. I'm going to try the DSP, but not go the tweaking route. I don't do tweaking for the reasons Sasha opposes them, but just my experience. I appreciate that many love tweaking and see it as part of the fun of the hobby. But it's not for me. Put a lot into tweaking at one point, and it never gave me the improvements or solutions I was seeking.

Tweaking, for me, at my age, is a lot like asking me to date, again. A whole lot of money, time, and effort for a boatload of disappointment.

But if it works for you, then to be sure: you should bring it on. :D

Dave

Marius

Hi Dave,

Although not too happy for you about this experience, I am glad I've finally found someone hearing the exact same distortion I do, listening to certain recordings, and being able to describe it so understandably as you do. The other day I mentioned the Norah Jones recordings, and I meant this exact rasping effect. It is quit unpleasant to to the point you start to doubt your system....

I hear those on my Quad ESL's and am certain I had them revised already once or twice without them being in need of that.... :cry: just because of this rasping effect.

Then again, when you hear the good recordings in total transparency bringing audio-bliss into the auditorium, that stress (and costs) is soon forgotten.

Please keep us up to speed with your Axioms.

Thanks,
Marius


In particular, on some recordings, on some passages, I have been hearing a kind of rasping, new to my ear, that until yesterday, I worried might be distortion caused by the M80s. It happens with some voices, some piano passages played in the upper registers, some sax, and some combination of instruments. The sound is unpleasant to my ear.

Yesterday, I tried these same recordings and passages on my MB2is, but this time at higher volumes, knowing that these speakers need to be cranked up to get them to work best. And there it was - the rasping sound, which I hadn't noticed before when I had listened to the MB2is at less than very high volume, which is my usual practice. Conclusion: the recordings are at fault, and the M80s don't need to be cranked up to produce it.

Dave

DaveNote

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Hi Dave,

Although not too happy for you about this experience, I am glad I've finally found someone hearing the exact same distortion I do, listening to certain recordings, and being able to describe it so understandably as you do. The other day I mentioned the Norah Jones recordings, and I meant this exact rasping effect. It is quit unpleasant to to the point you start to doubt your system....

I hear those on my Quad ESL's and am certain I had them revised already once or twice without them being in need of that.... :cry: just because of this rasping effect.

Then again, when you hear the good recordings in total transparency bringing audio-bliss into the auditorium, that stress (and costs) is soon forgotten.

Please keep us up to speed with your Axioms.

Thanks,
Marius

Thanks Marius. It is a comfort to know that others have experienced this sound. Hearing it without third part verification can make you think you're, literally, "hearing voices."

There is as you say a bright side to this kind of revealing speaker. In fact, if the M80s didn't have so many vital merits, the rasp would not be so bothersome. Terrific sound breeds a demand for it all. But engineering and speaker design means making choices, trade-offs, and consumers, including me, can forget that they have to live with these. For example, the B&W 685, which have been replaced by the M80 in my second system, is very good; in fact what it has what I thought is a better sounding tweeter than in my MB2is, but lacked something I wanted. Trade off, choices.

Yes, I'll try to keep you up to speed on my evolving impressions, and particularly how DSP sounds to me in my room when I receive it.

Dave

DaveNote

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 :cry:  :cry:

One of the tweeters on my M80s has gone bad. Axiom sending out replacement ASAP. Wondering if this may be the source of the rasping sound I've been hearing.

Stay tuned.

Dave

DaveNote

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:cry:  :cry:

One of the tweeters on my M80s has gone bad. Axiom sending out replacement ASAP. Wondering if this may be the source of the rasping sound I've been hearing.

Stay tuned.

Dave

Did you stay tuned? Update. Subsequently spoke to Axiom and since driver faliure is rare, they suggested I check the leads from one of the tweeters to the other on the affected speaker. One lead was, in fact, dangling. Axiom has seen these connections pulled, but this one looked as if it originally had been crimped too tightly. No way of knowing at this this time what happened. My guess...only a guess...is the wire had been crimped tightly and that subsequent movement, perhaps by me, finally snapped it. This is something Axiom has never seen before, and will be investigating.

In any case, and more importantly for me, they will be fixing the connection or send me a new speaker.

Dave

milford3

Axioms customer sevice is excellent.  One of the best in the industry.  Either Allan or Brent will fix any problem.

mkaiser

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Quote
Thanks for the suggestions, werd, but I must give them a pass. I'm going to try the DSP, but not go the tweaking route. I don't do tweaking for the reasons Sasha opposes them, but just my experience. I appreciate that many love tweaking and see it as part of the fun of the hobby. But it's not for me. Put a lot into tweaking at one point, and it never gave me the improvements or solutions I was seeking.

Tweaking, for me, at my age, is a lot like asking me to date, again. A whole lot of money, time, and effort for a boatload of disappointment.

But if it works for you, then to be sure: you should bring it on.

Dave

Well put Dave, and I concur with your findings also

Mark

DaveNote

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Axioms customer sevice is excellent.  One of the best in the industry.  Either Allan or Brent will fix any problem.

I couldn't agree more. My speakers are scheduled to be fixed tomorrow afternoon.  :D

Dave