Yet another Song 3 model?

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JDoyle

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Yet another Song 3 model?
« on: 17 May 2017, 10:10 pm »
I was wondering what feedback there'd be on a Song3 version like the Encore but with the 7.5"  rather than the 9.5" Satori woofer.  I am more of a dome person and would love some opinions on this...  :o

Thanks in advance!

JD

bahorn1

Re: Yet another Song 3 model?
« Reply #1 on: 17 May 2017, 10:21 pm »
I really liked the Encores when I heard them at Axpona.  But I need a smaller footprint.  So I was going to ask Jim exactly that question about an Encore with the 7.5" Satori.  I wound up just choosing the Song3-A though.

JDoyle

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Re: Yet another Song 3 model?
« Reply #2 on: 17 May 2017, 10:28 pm »
A smaller footprint is probably reason #2 for me as well...

JD

DMurphy

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Re: Yet another Song 3 model?
« Reply #3 on: 18 May 2017, 01:02 am »
I was wondering what feedback there'd be on a Song3 version like the Encore but with the 7.5"  rather than the 9.5" Satori woofer.  I am more of a dome person and would love some opinions on this...  :o

Thanks in advance!

JD


Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oo

mresseguie

Re: Yet another Song 3 model?
« Reply #4 on: 18 May 2017, 01:07 am »
From a purely aesthetic perspective, I prefer the 7.5" Satori drivers over the larger 9.5" drivers. Oh, and I prefer dome tweeters, too!


DMurphy

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Re: Yet another Song 3 model?
« Reply #5 on: 18 May 2017, 01:25 am »
From a purely aesthetic perspective, I prefer the 7.5" Satori drivers over the larger 9.5" drivers. Oh, and I prefer dome tweeters, too!

I bet I could conduct a blinded test between the Transducer Lab Be dome and the RAAL ribbon that would leave you scratching your head. 

Big Red Machine

Re: Yet another Song 3 model?
« Reply #6 on: 18 May 2017, 01:27 am »
Please note Dennis that I never put them up to this! :lol:

JDoyle

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Re: Yet another Song 3 model?
« Reply #7 on: 18 May 2017, 02:12 am »
I bet I could conduct a blinded test between the Transducer Lab Be dome and the RAAL ribbon that would leave you scratching your head.

So you prefer the RAAL?
If you don't mind, please elaborate your point, I just want to make sure I understand what you're getting at... :)

DMurphy

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Re: Yet another Song 3 model?
« Reply #8 on: 18 May 2017, 02:48 am »
I'm just saying you might not be able to tell the difference. 

HT cOz

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Re: Yet another Song 3 model?
« Reply #9 on: 18 May 2017, 03:27 am »
I'm just saying you might not be able to tell the difference.

Can you tell the difference?

mresseguie

Re: Yet another Song 3 model?
« Reply #10 on: 18 May 2017, 05:23 am »
Dennis,

You and I had a very similar conversation on AC a couple years ago. I made a similar statement to what I just made. You came back with a different statement than today's, but the result is the same.
 It is nearly the same as my declaring purple my favorite color and your telling me blue should be my favorite color. C'mon!  :nono:

Based on my personal experience listening to a few hundred different speakers over the last 4 years - including three Salk models, I discovered that approximately 80% of the time I prefer dome tweeters. I have heard RAAL tweeters and many other manufacturers' ribbon tweeters. I expressed my opinion. I'm not pushing it on you nor on anyone else. Please respect my opinion.

I welcome your opinion, but don't challenge my opinion.

Here's another of my opinions: The Exotica 3 speakers are either my favorite speakers or my second favorite speakers at the ~$13k to $15k price point. I really need to hear them again to figure this out. I'm respectful enough to not mention the other manufacturer. Both speakers have dome tweeters.

I'm going to buy one or the other this year to ship to Taiwan. [This is not an opinion BTW. It's my intention.]

Rant off....no hard feelings, I hope.

Michael





JackD

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Re: Yet another Song 3 model?
« Reply #11 on: 18 May 2017, 06:02 am »
Michael

I'm with you on the dome vs ribbon tweeter front.  The only ribbon tweeter I have heard or owned that came close was the one from Golden Ear and it is proprietary.

jsalk

Re: Yet another Song 3 model?
« Reply #12 on: 18 May 2017, 03:07 pm »
We have always tried to be flexible in situations like this.  Not everyone shares the same goals and tastes vary widely.  We look upon our job is to fulfill the needs of our customers.

I agree that the Be and big RAAL sound pretty much the same and, if you closed your eyes, you would probably have difficulty identifying which was playing.  Each has their benefits and their drawbacks.  And as I have always said, speaker design is all about balancing trade-offs and there is no such thing as the perfect speaker.

The original goal of the Song3 was to develop a true 3-way speaker with great performance attributes for under $3000.  I think we met our objectives.  But any design can be taken to the next level.  In this case, taking the Song3-A and substituting the Be dome for the small RAAL is certainly workable.

- Jim

Folsom

Re: Yet another Song 3 model?
« Reply #13 on: 18 May 2017, 04:21 pm »
What about a Song3 Slim? Side mounted lower driver?

Swapping out a Be for a RAAL ?  :nono: , well that's just one opinion.

DMurphy

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Re: Yet another Song 3 model?
« Reply #14 on: 18 May 2017, 05:39 pm »
Dennis,

You and I had a very similar conversation on AC a couple years ago. I made a similar statement to what I just made. You came back with a different statement than today's, but the result is the same.
 It is nearly the same as my declaring purple my favorite color and your telling me blue should be my favorite color. C'mon!  :nono:

Based on my personal experience listening to a few hundred different speakers over the last 4 years - including three Salk models, I discovered that approximately 80% of the time I prefer dome tweeters. I have heard RAAL tweeters and many other manufacturers' ribbon tweeters. I expressed my opinion. I'm not pushing it on you nor on anyone else. Please respect my opinion. 

No hard feelings, but my point was not to claim domes sound like ribbons.  Most of the time they don't, and it's easy to hear on a direct comparison.   As I've said many times, most domes have more energy in the sssssssssssss region of the treble, and some people prefer that more immediate sound.  Good ribbons sound like someone stretched the response of the dome out, providing less emphasis in the ssssssssss area, but greater detail and air at the very top.   The one exception I've heard is the TL Be dome. It comes very close to the sound of the RAAL, and can be crossed lower than the RAAL unit used in the Song3.  That's why I said you might not hear the difference in a blind test.  You might very well hear a difference with other domes.  I recently compared my MB0W1 2-way (Hiquphon 3.4" dome) with a speaker with the RAAL, and the difference in presentation was striking even though the two speakers measured very similarly.    I'm not the only one to comment on this.  Jim Salk had the same reaction to the TLBe, and Jeff Bagby, who has done designs for Jim and is a highly accomplished crossover designer, has posted this same opinion about Transducer Labs domes in general, not just the Be. 


jsalk

Re: Yet another Song 3 model?
« Reply #15 on: 18 May 2017, 05:48 pm »
What about a Song3 Slim? Side mounted lower driver?

Swapping out a Be for a RAAL ?  :nono: , well that's just one opinion.

If you moved the woofer to the side, the cabinet could be narrower.  But it would also have to be deeper to make up for the lost internal volume.  It is already 14.5" deep.  So it doesn't seem that this is an especially attractive alternative.

- Jim

DMurphy

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Re: Yet another Song 3 model?
« Reply #16 on: 18 May 2017, 07:07 pm »
Michael

I'm with you on the dome vs ribbon tweeter front.  The only ribbon tweeter I have heard or owned that came close was the one from Golden Ear and it is proprietary.

That's actually not a true ribbon.   It works on a different principle, one pioneered by Heil back in the day.  A pleated diaphragm that acts like an accordion to squeeze air and shoot it out as sound waves.   Jim and I did a dipole design with the original Heil driver, which was huge.  Recently, many much smaller tweeters operating on the same principle (usually called AMT for accelerated motion tweeter) have become available.  I've tried several, and with one exception they were pretty rough.  When implemented carefully, the design can achieve the qualities of a ribbon without the expense of a transformer. 

ctviggen

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Re: Yet another Song 3 model?
« Reply #17 on: 18 May 2017, 07:12 pm »
No hard feelings, but my point was not to claim domes sound like ribbons.  Most of the time they don't, and it's easy to hear on a direct comparison.   As I've said many times, most domes have more energy in the sssssssssssss region of the treble, and some people prefer that more immediate sound.  Good ribbons sound like someone stretched the response of the dome out, providing less emphasis in the ssssssssss area, but greater detail and air at the very top.   The one exception I've heard is the TL Be dome. It comes very close to the sound of the RAAL, and can be crossed lower than the RAAL unit used in the Song3.  That's why I said you might not hear the difference in a blind test.  You might very well hear a difference with other domes.  I recently compared my MB0W1 2-way (Hiquphon 3.4" dome) with a speaker with the RAAL, and the difference in presentation was striking even though the two speakers measured very similarly.    I'm not the only one to comment on this.  Jim Salk had the same reaction to the TLBe, and Jeff Bagby, who has done designs for Jim and is a highly accomplished crossover designer, has posted this same opinion about Transducer Labs domes in general, not just the Be.

That's interesting. I've always liked ribbon tweeters better than domes (which doesn't mean domes are "bad" -- my main system has these in them now), but these implementations have always been on different speakers.  There are too many variables involved.  Also, one wonders how much I'm actually hearing from the tweeters.  I'm currently using Linn 5140s, which allow you to triamp them.  I'm using one amp connected to the bass, mid, and treble/tweeter.  I should disconnect the bass and mid connections and see what this sounds like.  (These use dome tweeters.)  Unfortunately, the only ribbon tweeter I have is on my Salk HT-3s, but I don't think it's easy to listen to just the tweeters.  (And we'd still be talking different cabinets, etc.)  Unless you're a designer, it's doubtful you'd have a really good test of dome v. ribbon tweeters. 

JDoyle

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Re: Yet another Song 3 model?
« Reply #18 on: 18 May 2017, 11:20 pm »
Well this was what I was hoping for... I respect and greatly appreciate everyone's opinion.  8)
One of the reasons I'm thinking domes is that I don't always sit in the sweet spot. I have a fireplace in this room and I often sit near it. 

Is that a stereotype of the RAAL ribbon that if you're off axis, you loose the gains?
This was the case with another brand of speaker that I once auditioned that featured ribbons. Fantastic until you stood up, or moved to the side...

And kudos to you Jim and your willingness to customize to your customers wants and needs.  :thumb:

DMurphy

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Re: Yet another Song 3 model?
« Reply #19 on: 19 May 2017, 12:38 am »
Horizontal dispersion is pretty much a function of the width of the radiating element, unless the driver is recessed far into the baffle, and vertical dispersion is a function of its length.  Therefore, either the RAAL 70-20 will have wider horizontal dispersion than a typical dome, and the 64-10 will have much broader dispersion. Vertically, neither is quite as broad as a dome because the ribbon element is a little longer, but it's good enough so that you probably wont hear any difference when you stand up at a normal listening distance.  Also, very broad vertical dispersion isn't necessarily desirable due to ceiling reflections.  That's why a number of designers deliberately control vertical dispersion.