[guf]

I have been reading the suggested links that people post on this subject and enjoying the results from following some the principles. One of the main suggestions is to place the monitors as close to the front wall as possible. Doesn't this contadict the majority of people saying the speakers need room to breathe and be out from the front wall?

[Letitroll98]

Yes, they are contradictory, as are many things in audio.  The best placement for even bass and mid bass is often at odds with imaging and soundstaging.  I had Allison 3's many years ago which Roy designed to go in corners.  Some of the flattest bass I've ever had, but imaging was amorphous.  When I pulled them out into the room for fun, imaging was improved but the bass frequencies suffered.  Most speakers today are not meant for wall placement (excepting some mini monitors) and if you put them there you'll get a big bass hump and still not fully solve any SBIR problems. 

[JLM]

Yes.  Front wall placement with most speaker designs would typically cut off your nose to spite your face.  The vast majority are designed to be placed away from walls.  Some studio monitors have settings for wall or even corner use.  In the real world audiophiles focus on gear while living with far less than ideal setups. 

IMO the ideal is a near-field free space setup of bass limited speakers in a large properly proportioned room to minimize room interactions, then add semi-randomly corner placed multiple subs (read Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" and look up Duke LeJeune in his Audio Kinesis child circle here at AC regarding "swarm").  Bass frequencies (below the Schroeder frequency) behave as waves in-room.  Higher frequencies behave as rays.  So bass should be produced differently than higher frequencies. 

Unfortunately most audiophiles have never tried or heard near-field setups.  The Cardas website offers formulas for laying out a near-field setup that provide a good starting point.  These formulas are derived from the Fabiano ratios used in their "Golden Cuboid" room dimensional ratios, also known as the "Golden Greek Rectangle" (used to minimize echo in their stone temples).  But near-field is limited to a single listener and requires point-source speaker design.

[konut]

I will be implementing the close wall configuration when my newly redecorated listening/living room is completed. Made some cheap bass traps yesterday for this purpose.   

[guf]

 

IMO the ideal is a near-field free space setup of bass limited speakers in a large properly proportioned room to minimize room interactions, then add semi-randomly corner placed multiple subs (read Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" and look up Duke LeJeune in his Audio Kinesis child circle here at AC regarding "swarm").  Bass frequencies (below the Schroeder frequency) behave as waves in-room.  Higher frequencies behave as rays.  So bass should be produced differently than higher frequencies. 

Unfortunately most audiophiles have never tried or heard near-field setups.  The Cardas website offers formulas for laying out a near-field setup that provide a good starting point.  These formulas are derived from the Fabiano ratios used in their "Golden Cuboid" room dimensional ratios, also known as the "Golden Greek Rectangle" (used to minimize echo in their stone temples).  But near-field is limited to a single listener and requires point-source speaker design.

The near field listening has been the biggest improvement in my system in a long time. Up there with switching to higher efficency speakers, and bass traps. I am sitting at the 38% mark in my 19 foot long room and have everything in front of me. I can pull the monitor speakers out so they are from 24 -44 inches away from the from wall. It seems the best to me out further out and the measurements were better than other placements in my room any where in that range. I have only been focusing on the measurements for the 20 -300 hz. I have one sub to play around with and considering another. I do have so GIK stuff on the front wall between the speaker and experiment with it there or not. Also considering different sound  treatments for my new appreciation of near field listening.

[artur9]

One way to combat SBIR is with DSP.  I have my speakers against the wall (because kids) and RoomPerfect (my room correction system) vastly reduces (maybe eliminates) the penalty for that location.  I've heard my speakers both out in the room a bit and against the wall and RoomPerfect does a great job.

[poseidonsvoice]

One way to combat SBIR is with DSP.  I have my speakers against the wall (because kids) and RoomPerfect (my room correction system) vastly reduces (maybe eliminates) the penalty for that location.  I've heard my speakers both out in the room a bit and against the wall and RoomPerfect does a great job.

http://www.hifizine.com/2010/09/the-three-acoustical-issues-a-room-correction-product-can%e2%80%99t-actually-correct/

Please show us the before/after measurements.

And...SBIR is reduced/easier to deal with when you move your speakers CLOSER to the front wall.

Best,
Anand.

[guf]

http://www.hifizine.com/2010/09/the-three-acoustical-issues-a-room-correction-product-can%e2%80%99t-actually-correct/

Please show us the before/after measurements.

And...SBIR is reduced/easier to deal with when you move your speakers CLOSER to the front wall.

Best,
Anand.

You reference that writer often. He lives right near me. I should call him up.  I'll get new measurements again but there are some from the other thread that you've been helping me with. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=149872.msg1615100#msg1615100

[artur9]

Please show us the before/after measurements.

Do you enjoy barking commands at internet posters?  Disinclines me to "honor your request."  In any case, given your tone I do not think any measurements I provide would satisfy you.

True about moving things closer and SBIR.  I had done that as well.

[poseidonsvoice]

Do you enjoy barking commands at internet posters?  Disinclines me to "honor your request."  In any case, given your tone I do not think any measurements I provide would satisfy you.

True about moving things closer and SBIR.  I had done that as well.

Thanks! 

Didn't know that using the qualifier "Please" meant I was barking at you.

Best,
Anand.

[guf]

Thanks! 

Didn't know that using the qualifier "Please" meant I was barking at you.

Best,
Anand.

Wait?! he wasn't "barking" at me? I appreciate all your suggestions patience with me, and really everyone.

[poseidonsvoice]

Wait?! he wasn't "barking" at me? I appreciate all your suggestions patience with me, and really everyone.

It's all good! A learning exercise.

Best,
Anand.

[roscoe65]

Wait?! he wasn't "barking" at me? I appreciate all your suggestions patience with me, and really everyone.

I don't think the reply was targeted at you, nor do I think anyone's comments on this thread are rude or unreasonable.

I wan to personally thank you for undertaking this experiment; I am trying to do something similar in a small space and may find your near-field solution works for me.  One arrangement I have is a pair of Omega SAM's that use a pair of Rhythmik F8 subwoofers as stands.  I bought the F8's used off Ebay from a gentleman in SF.  They would have been perfect for you.  The F8's allow crossing over at 200hz, so with stereo subwoofers you can add the midbass reinforcement that benefits most single drivers.  This also allows me to block the rear port.  This raises the F3 frequency but allows closer placement to the front wall as well as smoothing the [reduced] bass response of the SAM's.

I have two rooms that I am working with:  the 15' x 22' living room which is HT/music focused and a 11' x 11' den/listening room.  Based on your reports I've now decided to run the SAM/Rhythmik combo in the smaller room in a near-field setup (the room is also a library/exercise room that needs to serve multiple purposes).  I can move the speakers closer to the front wall for normal use or pull them out for near-field listening.  They will be driven by a Inspire LP-27a/KT-77 PSE combo.

My living room is not only bigger (yet still modestly-sized) but livelier as well.  The floors are hardwood, there are a lot of windows, and the amount of room treatments that can be applied is limited.  I've decided to use all Omega RS5 speakers in this room (as soon as Louis sends me my 1.5HO Monitors).  These speakers will be a bit more forgiving than the SAM's and would work better with subwoofers that cross over at a lower frequency (the helper driver in the 1.5 version really fills in the 100-500hz range).  Power is provided by a Marantz NR1606 (probably only 30wpc, hence the high efficiency speakers) with the fronts optionally powered by a Red Wine Audio Signature 16 and/or a SE tube amp for music).  The Marantz is a bit warm sounding so the crispness of the RS5 should be complementary.

I would like to slip some aesthetically-pleasing room treatments in the LR, but it is not a priority.  I really only have one single  reflection point that concerns me (first reflection point for one speaker that is close to a side wall) but I think I can come up with a solution for it.  The HT wall sits in a 24"-deep alcove, so the 65"TV, shelving and equipment are somewhat "out of the room".  Also by using outboard subwoofer(s) I can take the mains out of the <100hz equation.  I am considering multiple smaller subwoofers to both smooth the bass and be less obtrusive in the room.