[Wandill]

Hi all.  First post and I want to thank the community here for providing such a decent place to learn and talk sound.  I've been in the process of researching a new stereo for a few months (although the real "research" ended a few weeks ago, followed now by endless information gorging), and finding a place with folks so passionate about the Omega line has opened the door for learning about single-driver tech in a 2-way world.  Anyway, many thanks to those here who continue to discuss and experiment.  It helps many other lurkers out.  On to the question...

As mentioned, I'm preparing to start/build my first nice 2 channel setup, and am very intrigued by 3 series Omegas, however the sheer range of amp/speaker/dac combinations is leaving me pretty frozen with indecision (perhaps some of you can relate).  2 primary issues i'm running into are 1) having a pretty low level baseline of a current rig, so little understanding of what "sound" i enjoy and 2) the possibility of several relocations in the coming years, so a lot of possibility when it comes to room size and configuration. 

I'm wondering if a few people here could chime in with their recommendations for a ground-up build if they were to start their systems over from scratch, perhaps using some of the components I've read such good things about.  I know these questions get posed all the time, but I'd greatly appreciate any further recommendations or general advice as far as "getting over the hump" and being happy with a system I could buy now, and really enjoy for quite a while down the road. My total budget(speakers, stands, amp/preamp or integrated, wire, if necessary) is <$2500.    So if you had it to do again, what would you build for yourself?  Many thanks.  Wandill


Musical interests: all and growing (60% folk, classical, and jazz/jazz orchestra, 40% rock/hiphop/electronic)
Fidelity: majority 256/320kbps, moving slowly toward lossless
SPL: background to "jamming" but never crushing party levels
"Sound" preferences:  natural, is the best i can describe.  Would like to avoid a fatiguing sound, as my source/files are not the best.

Current
Speakers: PSB Image B15
Amp: Onkyo HT RC-160 (~80 wpc home theater rec)
DAC: iFi nano idsd (keeping) via usb into Lenovo notebook (rated 1.65 output voltage)

Considering (feel free to pick and choose, or suggest alternatives):
Speakers: 3i with SVS sb2000 sub (need stands), 3xrs (possible sub), tekton lore reference (any experiences?)
Amps: Clones audio 25i (very interested based on many, very positive reviews, other gainclone possibilities),
Decware super zen
Virtue one.3 (battery version, sub out incl.)
Dayens Ampino
Crown audio 1500 (req. preamp?)
Ideal Innovations 40se
Coincident Dynamo 34se

[Capt. Yossarian]

Welcome to the madness, Wandill --

I started over about 15 months ago, and I got in within your budget.

I bought the Super 3S speakers (which Omega seems to have just stopped selling within the past couple of weeks) -- the Super 3XRS now would be my choice for that same budget -- and a Dared 2A3C integrated amplifier from this entity on eBay (hint -- I think this is the US importer) -- http://www.ebay.com/sch/midwestsupport/m.html?item=261646122864&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562. My cables are KimberKable 4PR -- http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004TXN4Q6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I've been using this system for about 15 months, and it's just magical. The powers that be on this site seem to have reasons to shove the Dared aside whenever I've mentioned it -- but I've found this system to provide a totally magnificent listening experience: detail, dynamics, channel separation, sound staging -- all of the attributed that I've wanted in a budget package.

By the way, my source is strictly CD (Marantz), and my musical tastes are fairly eclectic: classical (from choral to quartet to full orchestra), jazz, new age, world music, classic rock. It all comes through just beautifully.

One last thought: I'd skip getting a monitor plus stands -- you'll get better sound out of the floor-standers, and the cost of a monitor plus stands doesn't save any money. Furthermore, once you listen to the 3XRS, you're likely to forget about that sub -- you just won't need it. Just my 2¢ on that …

[Canada Rob]

Hello Wandill,

Welcome to the Omega Audio Circle. Capt. Yossarian got to the punch before me, so I won't repeat his good advice.  The 3 Series love a good flea powered SET, like the Dared he mentions.  The Decware Zen in any configuration will also do any Omega proud, as will the Rachel.

The problem with the 3 Series is people can't wrap their head around such a tiny driver being able to sound anything but "small",
when in fact its sound is way out of proportion to it's size - huge.  The Super 3 series will play with your head: "how can something so compact sound so big?"
I will not use any of the overused ad nauseam audiophile terms to describe their sound other than to say they are a (positively) different listening experience compared to conventional 2+ way speakers.  Live vs reproduced is the closest description I can come up with.

[Capt. Yossarian]

Canada Rob has it right about the sound from these speakers -- it's way beyond what you might imagine when you think of a single 4.5" driver. Don't be fooled by speakers with huge drivers and low efficiencies that require lots of power to drive them -- this system does everything just perfectly.

My previous system was KEF 105.2 speakers, all Nakamichi electronics (PA-7, CA-5, OMS-7 CD player, etc) -- which is one hell of a system. The KEF's are basically similar to the old B&W 801s -- sizable 3-way speakers that love lots of power (which the Nakamichi provided). They had all the qualities you could want.

Having said that, I'll take my Omega/Dared setup any day -- the sound is that beautiful. Sure, you might not be able to play at rock concert levels, but the sound that you get from these speakers (and they can go very loud -- I rarely put my Dared above the 9 o'clock position on the volume knob) is truly sublime. One article I read last year when I was researching this system opined that tubes like the 2A3 make CDs more listenable -- getting rid of the glare and harshness that still seems to be part of that experience. I think they're right -- and, yet, there is no muddying or loss of detail or spatial resolution.

[JLM]

Wandill,

What a wonderful problem to have!

Omega is a great choice for intimate listening.  I'd talk with Louis regarding which 3 series he'd recommend.

And sounds like you're set with the iFi nano DAC.  It's good, stupid good for the money, but may not bring out the full potential of the Omegas.

So you just need to pick an integrated amp.  I run both nice solid state and tube gear, so no stakes there.  Good designs sound good, regardless of which path is followed and in fact many reviewers will admit that the best solid state and the best tube designs sound very similar.  Most designers simply prefer and naturally support whichever path they're familiar with.  I'd just pick the one that fits your lifestyle.  (Can you remember to turn it off every time?   Do you like to tinker?  Will you be traveling or moving?  Do you look forward to tweaking the sound?  Would you ever use it in a desktop setting?  How susceptible would these amps be to "dirty" A/C power?)

But I'm wary of rabid tube fans because tubes can be used in lesser designs to make the sound more palatable by blunting transients a bit, roll-off the high frequencies a tad, and add some pleasant-sounding lower-order harmonic distortions in which case they are little more than a band-aid, as a tube(s) can not and does not change any inherent flaws.  In this less than ideal solution the result can at best only be a less unpleasant sound.

[Canada Rob]

Omega is a great choice for intimate listening. 

And sounds like you're set with the iFi nano DAC.  It's good, stupid good for the money, but may not bring out the full potential of the Omegas.

But I'm wary of rabid tube fans because tubes can be used in lesser designs to make the sound more palatable by blunting transients a bit, roll-off the high frequencies a tad, and add some pleasant-sounding lower-order harmonic distortions in which case they are little more than a band-aid, as a tube(s) can not and does not change any inherent flaws.  In this less than ideal solution the result can at best only be a less unpleasant sound.

Omega is a great choice for any type of listening.  JLM has never owned Omegas, and possibly never even heard them.  How he's an authority on them is beyond me.

Lovers of good quality SET amplifiers don't need to head to their nearest clinic for a tetanus shot.  JLM is a solid state fan.

There's nothing like clarity, so I'll try to provide it: JLM is no doubt referring to certain harsh sounding old class D designs that used a tube buffer to soften them up a bit.  If that's not what he is referring to, that's what I'm referring to.  Class T and Class A/B chip amps didn't need a tube buffer, and neither do many class D designs.  Class D has come a long way in the last five years.  The Rogue Audio Sphinx is a modern Class D with tube, and it's getting rave reviews.

[Wandill]

Thanks to all for the replies.  I was in the middle of responding when i got sidetracked, but you've given me a lot to consider.

Captain and Rob - Really appreciate the responses.  Captain, your comments months ago on Stereophile actually led me to research single driver speakers and to this point, i'm very glad that i have.  I agree that monitors/stands seem to be a poor value point, when considering their total cost vs the 3xrs and its ability to push even lower.  I notice the Omega site lists frequency range, but nothing regarding +/-db level to put it into perspective.  It sounds like you are quite satisfied with the low freq output of your 3s' however.  Well noted... to expoudn on your answer, a 3i and sub combo versus a 3xrs alone is tempting because of the seemingly VERY well controlled low frequencies in a powered, sealed sub.  I still see so many folks here that enjoy adding a sub.  but you are really very satisfied, yes?

rob

Rob and JLM- many thanks, as well.  I have noted how much a fan of the Omega/Decware combo you are Rob (along with many others here are), and like the idea of the American made and longterm warranty of the combo (sound quality aside).  Understanding that there would be sufficient volume output, what would high quality SS trade for lower power SET tubes?  Seems like dynamic headroom, ease of use, bass grip, and general flexibility with more speakers versus tonal smoothness/natural sound and (possibly) more forgiving nature.  Rob, esp since you have recommended high quality chip amps in the past?  And JLM, your questions are quite good... I found tubes fascinating, but don't wish to tinker now, i am VERY susceptible to dirty power, moving, and am unfortunately careless with my gear.  don't kill me folks.  Sounds like you are firmly in the SS camp?

I'd have to say i'm leaning toward SS, but as probably dozens have noted here, the transition over time is usually from SS to tubes. Tempting to skip and go where so many have ultimately arrived. 

Finally, as to the impropriety, hopefully everyone just offers what they know for themselves (as they have so far).  Rob, you work for Omega, but clearly know and appreciate their designs.  JLM, whether you own Omegas or not, i'm happy to hear opinions on the big differences, especially as it really does seem like low power, high quality SS and tube amps start to converge when getting into this price bracket. 

Again, many thanks and apologies for the long post.  this is giving me a lot to consider!

[Holygeezer]

Hello Wandill,
I recently upgraded my stereo system to the following. I grabbed the pair of Outlaw 1.5 Way Towers Louis had for sale last fall. You can read about them on the Outlaw link page. I am driving them with a Dayens Ampino. I used to have a pair of the Omega Super 3XRS with the earlier hemp drivers which I really liked. Their only downside was a bit of bass shyness in my room so I sold them and tried something else. I never could get the sound of those 3XRS out of my mind though. So when I saw the Outlaw 1.5 Way Towers I immediately contacted Louis and purchased them. At the same time I came across a Dayens Ampino at a great price which was an amplifier I have been wanting to try based on all the rave reviews about it. I cannot tell you what a fantastic synergy this combo provides for my ears. I listen to every imaginable kind of music and find nothing lacking in sound for my ears. This combo is pure magic. I would also agree with Capt. Yossarian that the Super 3XRS might be all you need when it comes to bass. The Super 3XRS and a new Ampino would run you somewhere around $1800, well under your budget. I have absolutely no plans to upgrade or change my system in the future, it is that great now. I cannot recommend this combo highly enough.

[DaveC113]

Considering (feel free to pick and choose, or suggest alternatives):
Speakers: 3i with SVS sb2000 sub (need stands), 3xrs (possible sub), tekton lore reference (any experiences?)
Amps: Clones audio 25i (very interested based on many, very positive reviews, other gainclone possibilities),
Decware super zen
Virtue one.3 (battery version, sub out incl.)
Dayens Ampino
Crown audio 1500 (req. preamp?)
Ideal Innovations 40se
Coincident Dynamo 34se

------------------------------------------------------------

I'd go for one of the 3 series but with the Omega Speed 12 sub, most of your cash will go there.

You have the ifi nano, it's fine until you have $2k or so to drop on a high end DAC.

Then you might look into the ifi tube buffer combined with the Crown XLS 1500, people have been having luck with that combo and it makes your budget work. You can try other amps later... sure some may be a little better but my guess is you'll just stick with the Crown, it's frankly amazing for the price and has an adjustable 24 dB/oct high pass crossover you can use (I set mine at 50 Hz) which will greatly reduce the excursion of the RS5 driver and allow much higher volumes when playing bass heavy music. It's below the tuning frequency of the cab that excursion goes way up, in a bass reflex cab it's not even close to linear so cutting the bass under 50 Hz is very effective even though 50 Hz is still pretty low, and allows easy blending with a subwoofer.

Cables make a big difference as does the quality of AC power and even power cables... you don't need to spend a fortune but really cheap cables, like the ones that come in the box with a $50 cd player, will kill the music. Consider looking for a used SurgeX SX1115 or SX 1120 for power distribution. The 1120 will require installing a 15A plug, it comes with a 20A which almost nobody has a receptacle for. I have a sticky thread in my forum going over AC power if you want to check it out. Cables and AC power are all part of the system, and every part of the system is very important.

[beowulf]

I have the Omega RS7 speakers and have used both tube and solid state amplification with them. 

For solid state - I own a Rega Brio-R.  It is a nice little integrated amp, with 50 watts class A/B and has an very good phono stage built into it as well.  I think it's a great bang for the buck piece of audio equipment considering the features and performance @ $895.

For tubes - I own a Decware Taboo MK II.  Another good amp with 6 watts class A, and can drive efficient speakers, but also has one of the best headphone amps that I have personally heard.  The downside to this particular Decware amp is that it needs a good preamp to get the most out of it. But once a good preamp is in the mix the Decware Taboo bests the Rega Brio-R by a fair margin in almost every area except for volume and flexibility.

Although I still keep an open mind, the performance of the Decware amp has firmly rooted me into the tube camp for now.

With your listening preferences I think everybody recommending a speaker with the RS5 driver is spot on.  If you were a rocker or wanted more volume I would look into the RS7 though.

[Wandill]

Thank you, guys.  This is proving tremendously helpful.  The RS5 driver does sound sufficient for my needs (regardless of cab) so I'm going that route for sure.  As to the front end...  boy, the case for tubes seems to gain strength.  I remain sold on the Ampino and Clones 25i, but for the money, its just so difficult to not take a shot at the Crown 1500 and iTube combo.  Based on searches, it does seem like a hot topic ATM, (and hopefully not flavor of the month-style).  Aware that it may not provide quite the fidelity of the SET stuff... can anyone else chime in on Crown amp? Several here seem to have taken a shot on them.  Would love to hear a few more opinions.

Dave - Many thanks. A question regarding the iTube and general setup.  does the iTube really seem to add to the soundstage and texture, and not just add a warm haze to the proceedings?  It seems hard to believe, but based on everything written about it, and more generally, about tubed preamps, it sounds like you are a believer.  Can you add any details about its inclusion and benefit?

As for the logistics of the setup, nano idsd>itube > crown 1500> to 1) omegas and 2) sub.  Apart from necessary interconnects and cabling... does anyone see any issues with that conceptually?  Single source (computer) so no true preamp req'd, right?  I'm also asking because my experience with subwoofer integration is nil.

Much appreciated. 

[sugbob21]

Hi....i have the Omega super 6 alnico's with Louis's original subwoofer and have used all kinds of amps in the 6 years i have owned them.    Rega, Virtue , Prima Luna , Millenia , Red Wine,  just to name a few . Currently ihave a Decware with their csp3 preamp and the Crown.  As much as i enjoyed the Decware , the Crown with the Decware preamp to me is just killer. The tightest most defined bass i have ever heard in all the time i've owned these speakers , volume i could never reach before .It was like i never heard their full potential. (probably still haven't) . Right now this is it for me. ( Still have the Decware amp though. )

[DaveC113]

I don't have the itube, I have a DIY Aikido 6SN7 preamp... I recommended the itube because it's been a good combo with the Crown for some folks here on AC and it fits your budget. I do like tube pres, they will define some aspects of the sound to a large degree such as body, timbre and also can add some dimensionality. Without a tube preamp folks are often looks for additional warmth or body to the music, often trying to tune their system with cables, which is not a great idea... cables can add some warmth but it is mostly undesirable as you'll lose detail. With tube preamps you can change tubes to fine tune the sound you are looking for. Tubes are a much better place to tune your system vs cables.

2nd what sugbob said about the Crown amp too, it's very resolving and the control of the bass is amazing, way better than any SET. SET still has the upper hand in the midrange, as you'd expect, but it's not a big difference. It's nice to have both the Crown and a SET amp around...

[Wandill]

SugBob - Thank you, that is really quite the recommendation given that you can listen to a full Decware system any time the mood strikes.  Many of the amps you listed come up over and over, and although I have no doubt that they sound excellent, another vote for the Crown w/ tube pre
or buffer was enough to push me into that camp.  XLS1500 ordered this afternoon!

Btw, do you do much headphone listening out of your CSP3?  I recently acquired a pair of HD600s and have been considering taking a shot at the Bottlehead Crack OTL head amp.  I just bought my first soldering iron
and am excited to build/experiment with something for reasonable money, but that CSP3 is awfully pretty and I am sure sounds wonderful.  Still need to do more looking around on the Crack and other OTL amps, just
curious about your thoughts there.

To Dave - many thanks again.  Like I said, the Crown is inbound and I'm pretty excited to run it on my current PSBs and garage-sale 6ohm NHT 2.5s (never even close to properly powered with Onkyo's quoted 80 watts..)  while I nail down my Omega purchase.  Even though you have some great gear, I appreciate you taking my budget seriously and pushing what many might consider to be a left-field choice.

Your diy Aikido looks like a great project (and incredibly beautiful aswell), but I'm guessing it's out of my current skill-level and price range.

Looking at iTube, Yaqin cd3 (although trying not to fall into the "bigger=better" audio trap), and then real tube preamps if I can get the gumption to spend the money.

Another question for folks here regarding subwoofers.  Omega subs seem very well regarded for their speed, which sounds crucial to pairing well with the RS5.  I realize that Omega subs are specially made and matched
to their speakers, but Speed 12 money is getting to be very serious dosh indeed...  More than happy to support what seems to be an excellent American small business, but are there other subs people have musical
satisfaction with?

Finally, another thank you to Captain Yossarian for the sensible cable recommendation and all who have helped out.  After months of excessive (and possibly worse) research, this is really starting to come together for me.

[Canada Rob]

Another 2.6 cents (Canadian funds). 

Wandill,
I hate to see you confused, so I'll be up front.  The best tube amps and the best solid state amps do not sound similar.  What is generally considered the best tube sound is single ended triode (SET), single tube per output, pure class A, non-ultralinear, zero negative feedback. Whether it's EL84, 6L6, the KTs, 6550, or a true triode like the 300B, 2A3, or 45 (just to name a few) the SET sound will be unique - it will not sound like a good solid state, which will bring a whole different set of strengths to the table.

There is nothing that I know of that is faster, more fluid, more tonally sweet, creates a sense of 3D space, or that images like a good SET.  Also they are capable of going very deep in the bottom end.  The only downsides that I have found in a SET is speaker selection is critical due to their generally low power (no problem here with any Omega), and depending on the speaker, the low damping factor can make the bass less defined than a solid state or push pull tube amp, but not always.   

I run my SETs without preamp and make sure I have at least 2V input from my source.

Also please note: Asking for recommendation of other brands of subwoofers on the Omega forum is not encouraged by Louis.  There may be a more suitable forum for seeking recommendations other than Omega.

[DaveC113]

Wandill, Omega does make an 8" sub that'll be more affordable. The issue with many subs paired with Omega speakers is they have heavy cones to achieve a low resonant frequency which can make them sound slow, like they are just a tiny bit behind the Omega driver. A traditional sub that can keep up will require a much larger motor and this gets expensive, so I'm not sure you'll find a much less expensive option that is worthwhile.

Anyway, it's not like a sub is a firm requirement. The Omegas will put out way more bass than you might expect without the help of a sub. Depends on the type of music too, with a ~50 Hz xo the sub will just sit there and do very little with many recordings so I would say you really don't have to pony up for a sub right away if it's too much of a financial burden.

[Wandill]

Rob - understood about the real differences between SET and SS.  At a certain point for me, the financial considerations come into play, though, and with Dave and SugBob giving such high recommendations (and owning Decware SETs), the Crown seems like a good budget option in the near term.  I wonder too, about your previous SS recommendations (the N22 and chipamps).  Do you not believe that the Crown, at least close to those SS's in price, is a worthy competitor?  I also ask because, as noted earlier, my iFi nano is rated at 1.65V.  I assume that makes it marginal for use with the entry level SETs without a preamp.  Do you agree?

As to the Sub, the Deep 8 seems like an easier option to swallow, especially given instrumental music's relative lack of use of the lowest registers.  Very interested to here electronic music with the speed of the RS5, but i may wait to get the sub at its current price. 

Finally (and really not trying to piss anyone here off), I'm not sure what relationship agreement Audiocircle and the Omega Audiocircle have, but I'm curious to know of any and ALL components that mix well with the Omega RS5.  If it's improper consider suggestions from other manufacturers here, so be it and I won't ask. It does seem a little dictatorial for an internet board, though. 

[beowulf]

2nd what sugbob said about the Crown amp too, it's very resolving and the control of the bass is amazing, way better than any SET. SET still has the upper hand in the midrange, as you'd expect, but it's not a big difference. It's nice to have both the Crown and a SET amp around...

I wonder how long it's going to take somebody to put the Crown into an Aluminati or other high end chassis such as the Merrill?

[ozoid]

I think iFi has a solution to that 1.65 volt output problem. I think they also sell an external power supply that's designed to work with the rest of their components. worth considering if it allows you to skip a pre-amp for now. I have a Meridian Explorer and my understanding is that to get a substantial enough improvement to warrant replacing either mine or the iFi Nano or Micro, you're talking 4-figures.

[Canada Rob]

Wandill,

Going back to your original post you were looking for a system for up to $2500 for amp and speakers, and you were keeping your 1.65V DAC.
$2500 is enough for a pair of Super 3XRS and a Super Zen and some economical cabling (basic Monster Cable works well with these low powered systems, and you can upgrade to Zenwave (Dave C113) cables at a later date.  No Sub needed. Try the above system with your DAC, as it may work, if not, it's an easy sell, and you can buy a Herus for $350 which is also a highly rated DAC and has 2.4V output, I just know the Super Zen and Super 3XRS are sensational together and you need no further upgrades or tweaks to make them sound great.  A nice simple system - amp, DAC, speakers.  And really good looking too.

If you only have $200 to spend, buy the N22.  For the money some of the inexpensive little chip amps can really perform.  The Crown looks like a good option, but (correct me if I'm wrong) I think it's normally used with a preamp.  Also Sugbob 21 never said what Decware amp he was running with his CSP3.  Normally the Taboo SEP is mated with the CSP3.  The Super Zen is a different animal than the Taboo.  Beowulf, if I'm not mistaken also has a Taboo SEP with a MacIntosh preamp.  How much is that beautiful preamp contributing to the sound of the Crown?

Basically what it boils down to is we all have our preferences as to amplifiers, speakers etc.  I have owned almost every type of solid state amp, but when I got my first Zen amp about 6 years ago, I was hooked on the SET sound, and never looked back.  That's me. 
I appreciate the difficulty of buying a stereo in this day when there are so few bricks and mortar stores where one can go and listen.  Instead one has to rely on written descriptions on forums or reviews to make their choice.  Bottom line, I hope you find what will please you first time out, and not get on the buy/sell merry go round.