[1000a]

Dave

Around a year or so latter, he mentioned to someone in a thread that he had just ordered a Monarchy M24...his latter posts confirmed what I'd hoped.....a toe tapping musical component, and with beautiful tone.


For me, components in my system, must also have nearly perfect tone....the Monarchy is one of those components. The component must also be musical....I have not been an audiophile for around 15 years,  (I'm well out of "that" audio stage)....the Monarchy is very musical.

yeah in spades as I finally went to sleep last night, the word tone popped into my head, very nice and I have never moved so much in the sweet spot in my life, really throughly engaging piece. Its almost as if - strange but music slows down and I can clearly enjoy a bass line, drum crack I mean way deeper clearer image of that stuff than the Bird while a whole band is going and a moment or 2 later be sweapt up into the whole thing at one time.  open thoughts - just from the shear beauty of the presentation of the single parts
I am thrust back into the whole- I guess each area is done so equally well so matched  so detailed and clear that moving between listening to just bass and the whole presentation is seamless.   the bird still had alot of that also, but the more resolving I made my stereo the more she seemed a little anyalitical?  this has an incredible window in to the music but that view never takes anything from the whole image. 

Dave thanks so much for posting more feedback many people have a strong interest in the piece but its the personal feedback they need no matter the mag reviews. its wounderful to hear you chime in.

maybe what makes it so engaging to me, is just exactly that Tone properly described and delvered on time. its really hard to be a responsible adult and get stuff done with this piece in my house 

[mcullinan]

i would like to know how it compares to my Lavry, since I feel it is the ultimate in musicality... its all so subjective though.
Mike

[1000a]

Hi Mike

that is a problem without being able to listen to 2 pieces in the same system (ideally our own)  for me the closest audio rave kinda thing is 4 hours away minimum.

so I just goota study alot try and see if the review people seam anything like me in their ideas about the delivery of music..  I have done no reading on the Lavry if shes doing the trick and a recent design I do not know if you would do any better with this one.

we are all different in our feeling about the music and then more complicated our hearing is never the same ( i new a guy who hated treble period maybe his sensitivity to such was far different than most) as the next person, then wire that to the brains different -  there are so many DACs all mostly very good of recent design, its probably key to just find one that clicks with the individual and know the next one is probably also very nice but just different. no one being the last word on any of it. 

[1000a]

Mike

if pressed I have spent alot of time reading up on the Paradisia, I would think that crowd of fans would love the NM24, this piece delvs more info but the similar kind of presnetation. 

i had alot of interest in that piece mainly because of Scott Fallers rev of some speakers (a shoot out thing) on TNT a few years back he described very well how
each presented music.  I purchased said speakrs and tend to like his ideas on delv of music, his ideas seemed to be exactly the kind of thing I was seeking. 

So went he started jumping up and down about the Paradisia hense I listened- I'm guessing M24 is a paradisia++++  I just kinda find the reviewers or members who seem to be on my page after studing their comments and gear and then try to go from there, does not mean I buy the same stuff, but it gives me some guide. and spkrs is a really good place cause they do have a ton to do with a systems presentation.

I hope this is not useless bable.

so you might see how the Lavry peoples feeling line up with the Paradisia crowd and work from there.

[mcullinan]

see thats the problem... im off and running, dont realize the limitations of digital technology and or potential effects that design and engineering bring about.. and i end up in Whoville with Cindy Who?(was that her name) though my recent system has grown by leaps, but I fel smaller steps will be next.
I will look into the comparison....
Mike aa

[1000a]

Mike 

another thing that might be considered is a Monarchy 24/96 DIP or a GW labs DSP.
A couple of guys are using them w their Paradisias, which is probably what lead me to this DAC.

since I am finacing my audio dreams read interest rates included, I bought a GW labs DSP to try with my DAC.

if you search these on AA there is a lot of feedback, I only found one guy who did not like em.  basicly they are jitter reducers and provide an isolation point between the SB3 and the DAC.  they also rase the signal to a higher level so the DAC works less hard at getting the info, inside the DSP the signal is reclocked and then sent to the DAC. lots like these things so at first this was my plan to use w my old DAC and before I new it I did both at once.

Most people agree that the better the transport the less affect these things have, the thinking is the highend transports are much better with jitter and have better clocks than the low and middle tansports (mid being 2,500. at least).  So with a few SB guys saying it helped there sound I got one, can not comment until I try it and I am trying to be methodical in this rev, keeping it stock first.

these DSP/DIP s can up sample to 24/96 if one chooses some use it like that others by pass that and just use the jitter reduction/isolation/reclock/and signal bost.  the GW labs DSP claims to completely pitch the old clock info and start from scratch, the monarchy DIP redoes the clocked info w its new clock- so I went GW.

Agon ad 280. (400 normaly) direct from manu. or just keep your eye out used ones do show especially the Monarchy versions he sold tons of em.  many times had for 100-150.
he evidently sold his design to the one guy GW and I think GW has gone farther with it better transformers and so on, he also uses the chip differently so he can do adiff. job w the clock (toss completely the old info) so they say.

monarchy version new is 300/ gw version is 400  but I get the impression better prices are had with a little research- my DAC lists for 1580. but he sells it at 1080. I do not know if thats a promo price or his reg deal.  paradisia guys liked the improvement alot and found em cheap used.

i am guessing the SB being a basic consumer level product any help in this department would be very helpful, I will post- my SB is bone stock.  we will see

so my plan was just to do one of these but i instead made the bank happy and my wallet sad.
one used is a small step w out dumping to much $$, an easy resale people snap em up. 

[Big Red Machine]

Any gut feel for how much better the new NM (2007) version is from the M (2006) version?

[1000a]

Any gut feel for how much better the new NM (2007) version is from the M (2006) version?

I can't call that one, cause I never heard the M24, I did talk to CC Poon being worried the NM24 DAC was not as good in the Tube DAC he assured me it was, I was considering I might buy the older one.  He said he hasn't a/bed em but he is the designer I trust his ear, every generation of his DACs have been an upgrade.

I am guessing they are very similar in sound in the Tube DAC section, slight edge to the NM24, this guy does not go backwards.  Today I am running the SS DAC strait to the sub, and I think thats whats really thrilling him personally.  getting SS controll over the Bass.

when I poked the ques is the old tube one better, he was not pissed but he did seem like of course not - with that I was sold for an extra 100. I get the bass controll w the SS, I really think thats his aim here a hybyrd tube/ss dac via using ea at the same time I am game- we will see

Did you compare the tube output vs. SS output?

Did Mr. Poon mention if his SS output is just an op-amp output stage or discrete output stage? 

I did compare the SS to the tube DAC last night, I much preferred the Tube DAC it lost no detail to the SS, seemed smoother, fuller - better body for sure.

I imagine it lost some ultimate bass controll to the SS but the Tube DAC was not weak there anyway. gladly swap a little bass controll for the gains of the tube DAC.

Tube DAC did seem a little louder might be slightly higher output?  vol controll was not moved.

SS DAC, now use your grain of salt hear, seemed-to me to have less air and slightly narrower stage-but very slight.  deepth of stage the same.  keep in mind I am still using a volex cord nothing fancey the BIrd had a good cord, the stage of the NM24 equals it w a volex in the sound stage - I hope it will be even bigger as I do a good cord.

that said on Homeless from Graceland- it was before w Bird and still w NM24 very wide passes outside the cabinets and very deep.  spkrs are 34" off backwall to the spkr plane, 8' apart.  same qualities in the first track on Buena Vista Social Club very large stage.
so this might be something to check.  YMMV, I got room treatments ect.

as for op amp or discrete out on the SS I'd have to ask him, have not as of yet.

[1000a]

So my conclusions
Tube DAC only, stock w good ICs.  (below assume recordings of good quality)

PRAT/Tone/Musicality/Stage/air/detail/imaging are all excellent IMO

They all fit together well none stick out, very organic and whole, smooth slightly warm-slight.  Nice body to images, not thin. Bass is very good textured tight with great impact- definitely feel this part with this device.  Dynamics and speed are very good.  Like it with all types of music thus far does classical well, easily separates, defines well with body and tone and good depth.  Very engaging for me takes me into the music easily, I can move around and focus on separate parts and quickly be sucked right back into the whole presentation.  Strangely still being very aware of the indivual parts but completely absorbed by the whole tune.  It’s a wonderful thing, probably my favorite.  So excellent detail, without loosing body, nor soul.

Definitely a foot taper-hell a body mover, makes the orginal Birdland sound kind of operating room clinical and grainy.  I never moved this much listening while sitting down, I love the thing and really have no desire to hear the Altmann or Promi tube DAC.  But that’s just me I am not one to enjoy comparing these things, some do some don’t.  Not right or wrong.

A tiny bit bright initially – very tiny but still there, using stock tubes on board, a ton of options, there- something I am really attracted to.  various tubes/various dampers/ even a 6N1P option for moving away from 6922s, if one likes.  Now I still have not run the SS DAC to the sub, so there is more fun to be had.  There is a tubed linestage as part of the devise.  So $$ bang is really way off the scale.  From a sound purist point I was worried about having all this in 1 box, not now notta.

So my 2 cent if yours is a recent (1-2 yrs old) well regarded DAC Paradisia / Stello / Lavry / Altmann / Benchmark DAC 60 w mods and all the ones I did not mention and you feel your not getting what you want by all means check this thing out!  Do not hesitate, it should fair quite well with the others, may even blow your mind.  I really can’t imagine anyone not loving this thing IMS and room.  On the other hand if your basically happy I’d work on room treatments that will give you a major return on your effort especially DIY.   With the quality level of today’s DAC crop a lateral move seems a fairly low return- but that’s just my opinion and I am not a DAC compare guy.  I have listened to the top Levinson stuff at our High End dealer here and I don’t feel I am missing squat, for what that’s worth. 

If your DAC is 2 generations old, your brains should fall out and I would say definitely update.  Assuming we are all referring to 700.-1,500. pieces.  4-8,000. stuff I got no clue but this piece makes me think just how much better can it get and do I even care not really, no!  I love this piece, a great choice for me. Onward to possible AC regeneration and isolating the Stock SB from the DAC.

I am glad I got it instead of the Altmann (because I strongly wanted tubes in my DAC, and would have always been curious) or Promi tube DAC (a way off) even not hearing them - no problem- I do not flip stuff, if it thrills me, I like to get back to working on the whole of the parts instead of staying in this one area.   I am also thrilled with the option of running the SS DAC to my sub, that’s more than cool, should pay max benefits.  So no matter how good the Altmann or another may be - this thing has incredible chops and tone for a fantastic price, I could not resists its charms.  The bass now is already stellar.  Listening to Kodo, with very large multiple drums is sublime, yeah scary good now I see the guys swinging sticks moving about, visceral is an understatement.  Even the pieces that I had not listened too much before sucked me in, I was in awe- I need not look any further.  So I hope this is helpful, that’s as clear as I can speak of it.  Some of you guys size this stuff up so eloquently and quickly I am amazed.

Forgot midrange yes full rich w texture and detail, no complaint, midrange is not a negotiable part of a presentation for me.

[1000a]

I have just begun to use the SS DAC sent strait to my subwoofer with the Tube DAC staying as before sent to the preamp/amp for my main speakers. 

The overall presentation quality increased easily by 30%+  and it was fantastic before (in addition to what one would expect here surprisingly the tone got even better, stage got deeper and more detail was revealed through out the stage. Staggering improvement infact.  More on this later, but with it set up like this it is scary good.

I really think this is what CC Poon is so excited about and he well should be, the highly regarded M24, has in short time been very seriously improved by its maker.  It is priced so reasonably @ 1080. intro it should not overlooked by anybody, no matter the size of your check book or what ever DAC is causing you too drool.  There are many different ways to skin a cat. This is a big league DAC IMO for sand lot price.

So if you use a tube amp and an active sub, I doubt there is a better DAC out there, its really really good.   and I am just starting to get acclimated, no tweaks as of yet.

[ted_b]

Great find (using both DACs to solve a problem)! 

I may have missed this, but what is your speaker/sub setup, i.e do you have the speakers running full-range and the sub is augmenting them at some rolloff frequency, or do they talk via an active crossover?  If the SS DAC goes straight into the sub, then is your DACs' music source (cd, transport, whatever) the only source you have, (cuz otherwise the sub is not involved in any other signal path)?

Thx

Ted

[1000a]

I may have missed this, but what is your speaker/sub setup, i.e do you have the speakers running full-range and the sub is augmenting them at some rolloff frequency, or do they talk via an active crossover?

  great question, I see-hmm  , yes there is a small pitfall , for vinyl guys.

yes my spkrs are running their full range via my reg pre/amp and sub is augmenting them (powered sub w crossover)

If the SS DAC goes straight into the sub, then is your DACs' music source (cd, transport, whatever) the only source you have, (cuz otherwise the sub is not involved in any other signal path)?

good point I had not even thought about that yet, my SB3 is my primary source but I do have a TT, so yes the TT will not have the use of the sub now.

although for me digital is my primary source used 90+% of the time, Music Hall MMF & Gran Amp- good basic TT but I am not big invested in a vinyl rig.  its there for my lps I've had for ages and the occassional find.

so as little as I do vinyl I could easily hook sub back to my pre/amp (I have that volume memorized for sub).  but for a big vinyl person this might be a pain?

Great find (using both DACs to solve a problem)! 

startles me with incredible fast dynamics but retains tons of tone and musicality, with bass I feel in my spine, very fine piece.  although I was not disappointed with the tube DAC as a stand alone - I was more than happy even thrilled with very good punch and dynamics (easily embarising my old Birdland SS DAC)  ....  but placing the SS DAC into the mix has just blown me away.

check Lynn Oslon's review of the earlier M24 Tube DAC (sans the SS DAC)
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue25/monarchy_m24.htm

I am loosely quoting here;.........said it played easily right beside a big high $$$$ TT rig. was not in the least embrassed in that situation.

check Martin De Wulf's review of the M24 (sans the SS DAC) in Bound for Sound
http://www.monarchyaudio.com/

I am loosely quoting here also;........thinks it bettered a Dodson DAC and easily competed and beat in some areas a 17,000. Reimyo CDP, except in ultimate bass.  says the better the transport gets the better the 24 gets, cost no object transports are no problem for the M24.

my thoughts.....

So it does not surprize me CC Poon has come up with this hybyrd Tube DAC/SS DAC he's a great designer and delivers very serious stuff at a dollar point many of us can enjoy.  

[1000a]

I do not have a lot of solo type violin stuff on CD to listen to but some
Yo Yo Ma that's sounds incredibly rich and tuneful,  , so yard sticks are very nice In a digital world to see if the devices can recreate real instruments well this does easily.

the best thing I have not mentioned about this piece is Rock and Roll sounds great on it, no more ear bleed run me out. not antiseptic at all warm rich and big.

so much of jazz and classical I have has sounded very good in digital, but so many rock CDs particularly older stuff has just not been fun.

Finally Tommy and Quadrophenia can be played very loud and be totally enjoyable, big, rich, warm ,smooth without throwing detail out the window.
no harsh junk in it IMS IMR, love it

no doubt for me anyway my past digital experience has curtailed much of my listening to these songs.  this easily reminds me of my old TT and reel to reel days extremely enjoyable reckless abandon. serious rockin out like the days of old organic, whole and has swept me away.  i have never had this with digital with things like the Who. very very nice .

so tons of stuff that was not much fun to listen to before is now quite enjoyable and all the while the classical and jazz has not suffered but in fact improved.  I am not really sure how CC Poon acomplished this 
but its there.

I am now feeding this thing with a Belden 1695A (before it was a Stereovox HDXV).
so that should be considered, I gained tons and scaraficed a little bit.

[ted_b]

Have you removed the GW Labs DSP to understand what the NM24 sounds like without it, or in other words, what the DSP is doing for this level of DAC?  Thx
Ted

[1000a]

Have you removed the GW Labs DSP to understand what the NM24 sounds like without it, or in other words, what the DSP is doing for this level of DAC?  Thx
Ted

Hi Ted

Mostly all of this review up until my last 2 posts have been comments on the DAC without using the DSP.   

I have not done a direct AB with and without it yet but will take the DSP out to double back and see if it has indeed aided or possibly hurt the presentation.  Planned to do so this week, I will post here.   

FWIW I have been running the DSP at 44k (found little tiny differences with it at 96K), but my gut reaction to it was I prefered it at 44K.  The DAC happly accepts either 44 or 96K. 

Supposedly the DSP completely disregards the SB's clock info by the way GW impliments the particular chip responsible for that work, where the Monarchy DIPs use the same chip set up differently take the clock info and then redue it. 

I hope it helped but who knows I wanted to get accustomed to it and then check back.  Bought new on Agon for 280.00   I can say when first placing the DSP inline there was no startling change apparent to me- so the wait should more clearly reveal to me its affect on the sound.

[1000a]

Have you removed the GW Labs DSP to understand what the NM24 sounds like without it, or in other words, what the DSP is doing for this level of DAC?  Thx
Ted

Hi Ted

Forget the GW labs DSP with this DAC if you are using an SB (I can not find any differences with or with out it- my SB is stock) it seems to neither to harm nor enhance the DAC.

with a transport it could very well help but its seems a total waist w this DAC and a stock SB, if I discover anything different I will post.  If this is the case money better spent on a Promi TVC for a serious improvement.

so my comments on the DAC stand no diff in MS with or without DSP.

hope this helps

PS there are no BNC connections on this DAC, FWIW

[ted_b]

Thanks for the feedback on the DSP.  It's always a crapshoot, and in this case, with the SB as transport, maybe the fact that it's a network device and has different/fewer jitter issues that causes the lack of synergy between it and the DSP.  It will be interesting to hear if any other de-jitter solution, like a Monarchy DIP, reveals the same.

As far as spending money on a TVC....I agree...I have a glorious one, the Bent TAP.  Thx

[1000a]

checked out your equipment list, saw that TAP 

excellent, I just got a 2 month old Ref-2 Promi TVC today, so lots of hours on it already- I love getting something that's already burned in well especially transformer coupled, I guess we'd call it. 

You guys who have all been fortunite enough to get a TVC matched into your systems are in Heaven. Cause now I get to hear the improvements- WOW and even getting staggering results with an integrated amp.

I could pretty easily walk away now and just listen to tunes and check in next year at this time.  I have been studying the current crop of DACs and Nick's offerings now for about 90 days.

All is good except the DSP seems a waist, unless of course I might squeeze some improvement out with ERS and Black Hope Pad.  I may pick CC Poon's brain a little on the topic of his latest DIPs.  The GW -people licenced from him.

FWIW a couple of guys in the Paradisia thread are running the DSP or the DIPs in-line with their DAC and are quite pleased by results.  But that piece is a NOS DAC so who knows.

anyway I am spoiling my ears rotten here lately

[1000a]

these very relevant questions popped up on another post- but I'm responding here for other people following this thread now doing this

Hi 1000a, I'm just trying to figure out how you are running your system .... there are volume controls on each of the SB3, NM24, TVC and 1000a. I'm guessing you have the SB3 digital output volume at max or disabled and are not using the linestage part of the NM24 (and thus not its volume control). Do you use the TVC as your main attenuator and just have the Jolida's volume set at max to get it out of circuit?

If so, that would mean that the sub (Run directly from the NM24 SS DAC) volume would not change with the main speaker volume. Or, do you leave the TVC at a fixed setting, the Jolida at max, and just use the SB3 volume so that sub and main speaker volume remains equal? 

If so, that would mean that the sub (Run directly from the NM24 SS DAC) volume would not change with the main speaker volume.

Hi DSK
Excellent question-I just did a and a on that specific part of my set up yesterday.  yes this will only work when the main volume stays exactly the same and is already matched to the sub volume with an SPL meter. Obviously impractical. 

I will call CC Poon next week (as I thought he recomended me running the SS DAC strait to the sub/ language confusion?) and ask more questions- he simply could not expect us to (guess) by adjusting the sub vol controll everytime we a changed the primary vol to our system. So on this point I am as lost as anyone and feeling quite 

Do you use the TVC as your main attenuator and just have the Jolida's volume set at max to get it out of circuit?

Yes exactly. 
But I will say Promi TVC Nick also said to try the exact reverse
of this some integrates like it better that way- I have not tried that yet- but I am definitly recieving big pay offs from the TVC inline even with an integrated amp- (the input sensitivity on mine is 100K ohm)

I'm guessing you have the SB3 digital output volume at max or disabled and are not using the linestage part of the NM24 (and thus not its volume control).

Yes, SB3 digi vol disabled (which appears to me the same as max) & I am not using the linestage, correct.

Just for a whirl yesterday I decided I wanted to get some idea of the NM24 linestage (despite the Jolida's pre) having heard Lynn Olson rave about it with a TVC type device and thru that endless journey I began thinking what the hell is going on with this sub set up.

so here we are, I have no idea how CC intends people to use the Tube and SS DAC at the same time?

Or, do you leave the TVC at a fixed setting, the Jolida at max, and just use the SB3 volume so that sub and main speaker volume remains equal? 

this would solve the volume issues, I not tryed this yet but might as well-could be the ticket - I am hoping the benifit of the TVC is the fact its inline and using the SB digi volume would suffice but I have been told to run that disabled by those that are more in the know than me. So

any of you electrical / science guys who understand the nature of SB signal levels pro and con to the DAC might chime in? 

I have a DSP that boasts the signal level up considerably when sending it to the DAC, but in my present confiquration its seem to not change the sound quality at all- it may compensate for the lowered SB signal level (I am just not sure I do not loose quality with the SB sending a lower level signal?)  any insight welcome.
 
Clearly I do not want tons of devices in the line, but if compremises lead to better sound so be it.

obviously I wish my amp had a way to by pass its pre stage so I might fully give the NM24 linestage a real whirl - 

[DSK]

1000a, thanks for your reply. Yes, please let us know if you hear back from Monarchy. I sent them these questions a few days ago via Audiogon but haven't heard back.