[vegasdave]

Completely agree.

HPs are immune to room acoustics. But then the spatial realism is gone with HPs.

thanks, and that's true...but once you have the room and speakers dialed in, you're good to go.

[JLM]

Great one Steve.  Kinda freaked me out the first time that happened at a family gathering (that we traveled 8 hours to be with them) and I realized everyone else except for me and the 2 year old were plugged in. 

Years ago my wife (mid 40's at the time) initiated a phone call while the family was driving to a restaurant.  When we got there she didn't leave the car until we were all out of the car.  Inside she was still on the call and we had to nudge her along to the table.  Once we got to the table we had to interrupt her call so the waitress could take her drink order.  And she got upset when we had to bug her again to order when the waitress returned. 

Once we learn how to embed cell phones under the flesh we will be Borg (Star Trek reference).

[DaveC113]

You gotta remember 99.9% of the population has never heard a decent high end system these days. You'll never want what you don't know exists.

Another issue is there is no loyalty between employees and employers, I've had two sales canceled in the last few months due to work issues. One was a repeat customer the other was just checking out demos so I'm sure it wasn't just an excuse.

The boomer generation had economic opportunities later generations do not enjoy either... In general we don't have the disposable income for expensive hobbies.

[CanadianMaestro]

thanks, and that's true...but once you have the room and speakers dialed in, you're good to go.

you're preaching to the converted, friend......must've missed the gist of my message. 

[CanadianMaestro]

Years ago my wife (mid 40's at the time) initiated a phone call while the family was driving to a restaurant.  When we got there she didn't leave the car until we were all out of the car.  Inside she was still on the call and we had to nudge her along to the table.  Once we got to the table we had to interrupt her call so the waitress could take her drink order.  And she got upset when we had to bug her again to order when the waitress returned. 

Once we learn how to embed cell phones under the flesh we will be Borg (Star Trek reference).

We need cell phones that don't work a when car is in motion. Too many distracted drivers (and passengers) on the roads.   

[MJK]

You gotta remember 99.9% of the population has never heard a decent high end system these days. You'll never want what you don't know exists.

I think you are too close to the hobby, if you are in the industry you obviously have something at stake.

I have demoed my system for many people over the years, they all enjoyed it and were very complimentary. They went away understanding my hobby. I used my own music selections and some of theirs, the recording quality of current popular music is so low that it was embarrassing.  I have lent out a pair of small OB speakers I built and let them circulate among a few people at work who showed an interest, the feedback was very positive. Bottom line is that they are not interested enough to become involved in audio equipment, they have other priorities.

When I got out of college everybody had a stereo system, bought records, and spent as much time listening to music as watching TV (no cable in those days). When I married my wife we had two stereo systems and a combined record collection. There were record stores and audio stores (hi end and mid fi) galore, not any more. If I wanted to get in the car right now and head to a mall or store and buy a jazz CD, maybe browse a selection of jazz CDs, I am not sure where I would go. How many of the people you know even have a stereo in their home and actually use it on a regular basis? For me, not many.

It is not employers and employees, it is not money or the economy, it is lack of interest.

[CanadianMaestro]

Hectic lifestyles
(multi-tasking + short attention spans) ---> Forced choices/prioritizing -------------
                                                               
----> Lack of interest (willful ignorance) in many things
         deemed "inconvenient".

It's mostly behavioural, not financial, factors that spell the demise of HiFi.

"Ignorance is Bliss"
-- George Orwell

[JLM]

We need cell phones that don't work a when car is in motion. Too many distracted drivers (and passengers) on the roads.   

But she was a passenger.

[Folsom]

I don't understand what makes you guys think the dumpy KEF speakers from the 70's had any relation to high end audio today... Things have got a lot better. Just because more people had stereos, didn't mean they were all audiophiles. I don't think that many people from the 60-80's ever heard anything very good.

[sdolezalek]

I'm surprised that there is so little consideration of time in this thread.  By time, I mean the time necessary to actually sit down and carefully listen to an album, end-to-end.  In a world of tweets, snapchats, soundbites, etc. very few, except the old, actually take the time needed to read a book or truly listen to music for its own sake.  Why? I think it is because the rest of life now occupies just too much of our time and we, therefore, demand so much more of our downtime -- wanting it to be immersive video games, movies, live events, etc.

That doesn't mean music has disappeared, it only means that for most music is background rather than foreground.  It may be what you listen to on your earbuds, or your beats, but its role is largely as background and therefore quality just doesn't matter in the same way.  Your primary focus is on doing something else and too good a system suddenly becomes a distraction because it forces you to listen rather than just having a background beat.

I treasure having a system that gives me a sonic experience at least as good as that of attending the symphony, but I find it almost impossible to get someone to listen to more than a song or two on that system before I get the "sounds amazing but I've got to run" response.  Interestingly, because I use that same system for 7.1 surround sound with a large screen for movies, I find everyone wants to come over to watch movies on that same system -- why? Because they sound even more real than in the movie theater! 

Before they watch an entire movie on the system, most would say they couldn't care less about the sound; they only notice the picture quality.  But, an hour or two later, it was the sound that surprised them and made them realize it was a better experience.  If only they would sit still that long for music only...

[CanadianMaestro]

But she was a passenger.

That wasn't clearly evident in the orig post.

[CanadianMaestro]

I don't think that many people from the 60-80's ever heard anything very good.

It's all relative to the best that was available at the time.

Heck, the recs of Reiner/Chicago Symphony on RCA are still references today, even before "remastering", if any was done. Superb sounding pieces then, and now. Many today have become too brainwashed into thinking that anything produced before 2000 sounds bad. Their loss, not mine. 

[CanadianMaestro]

I'm surprised that there is so little consideration of time in this thread.  By time, I mean the time necessary to actually sit down and carefully listen to an album, end-to-end. 

Before they watch an entire movie on the system, most would say they couldn't care less about the sound; they only notice the picture quality.  But, an hour or two later, it was the sound that surprised them and made them realize it was a better experience.  If only they would sit still that long for music only...

For many, the stimulation of the visual cortex gives more satisfaction than stim of the auditory cortex. Vision has many more subtle gradations than sound, and the visual parts of our brains are more intimately connected to the emotional centers. That's probably why many "dig" movies more than listening to the soundtracks sans video.

[JLM]

That wasn't clearly evident in the orig post.

I've purposely not connected my phone to our new car with Bluetooth just so one of us (the passenger) can initiate a call while driving.  But I agree, any phone call while driving can be a distraction.

[CanadianMaestro]

I've purposely not connected my phone to our new car with Bluetooth just so one of us (the passenger) can initiate a call while driving.  But I agree, any phone call while driving can be a distraction.

+1 on that.

The human brain has evolved to automatically focus in on the sounds of human speech -- whether it's in the passenger seat or not. So, a driver will not only hear, but will focus on, his/her passenger's phone talk, regardless of whether the driver intends to or not. Funny thing is, we don't do the same thing when music suddenly plays in a room -- we do notice it, momentarily, but it's a lot more difficult (for many) to stay focused on a 5-minute piece of music even when solitary in the home. Go figure.

[JLM]

I don't understand what makes you guys think the dumpy KEF speakers from the 70's had any relation to high end audio today... Things have got a lot better. Just because more people had stereos, didn't mean they were all audiophiles. I don't think that many people from the 60-80's ever heard anything very good.

 

Not much of a vintage guy, eh?  At the 2015 Axpona show the best sound I heard came from the Classic Audio room (approaching the open room I mistook it for a live performance).  Little has changed in audio over the past 50 years beyond digital source/amplification technology.  Materials for the most part are little changed.  No new speaker designs have taken over the industry.  Tube amps and vinyl playback are virtually unchanged.  The biggest change I've noticed is our collective taste, from full bodied bass/mid-bass (some would call it bloated) to a thinner (in many cases anemic) sound. 

[OzarkTom]

I don't understand what makes you guys think the dumpy KEF speakers from the 70's had any relation to high end audio today... Things have got a lot better. Just because more people had stereos, didn't mean they were all audiophiles. I don't think that many people from the 60-80's ever heard anything very good.

Quad 57's, Quad 63's, Beveridges, Hill Plasmas, Sound Labs, MBL's, and Acoustat Monitors were not good? Most dynamic speakers built today will still not touch any of these.

[Johnny2Bad]

Well. I think plenty has changed since the 1970's, where my audio experience began. That's not to say there was no outstanding examples available at the time, but who bought them? Not many, and I'm including people who were actively into Audio, even High End Audio, in there.

I was there, we sold products like Quad ESLs, Magneplanars, Dayton Wright XG8's, Infinity References, Oracle 'tables, and yes ... Bryston (amongst others; I preferred the Threshold 400A and the Luxman tube gear but a 2B was a pretty sweet amp in those days).

But they were difficult to sell; although I don't mean to say they never sold, I mean you would not be able to survive as a business on those sales ... people listened and nodded their heads, but in the end they wanted the products they read about in the magazines of the day, and I don't mean the ad-free paperback sized Absolute Sound magazine.

Like today, the majority didn't trust their own ears and had to justify the expense to their friends with brands that advertised heavily. Just the way people are.

Still, I prefer and can hear fairly significant improvements in the modern examples of turntable, cartridge, pre and power amplifier, loudspeaker. Vast improvements in phono preamps, which were just emerging as a product in the late 70's, and loudspeakers.

Now, a 1975 Rolls Royce or Jag XKE or my buddy's '68 SS/RS 396/4-speed Camaro are remarkable automobiles, even today. But like the audio, they cannot claim to be the equals of *the best* of what you can buy now. What they do share with classic audio is the emotional "rightness" that makes them landmark products.

A modest "Classic" system can out-perform *some* gear sold today ... people today buy mass-market junk, or if I'm being harsh, rather ordinary but competent gear, that is buffeted by an advertising budget and positive reviews in Computer magazines (because that's what people read today) in preference to the truly remarkable gear.

But it's always been that way; if you want great gear that out-performs the classic stuff, you can find it. But you have to look, you have to trust your ears (few people do, in reality) and you have to actually fall off your wallet and get it into your living room.

With regard to "what happened to HiFi" ... I've said it before, but it's worth repeating ... teens today spend more on wireless contracts and cellphones than anyone I ever knew spent on HiFi, and if I had spent that % of my income every year from my teens until today I would have the five-figure components you see and can't afford in "Recommended Components" in my living room right now. And I don't.

[James Tanner]

Hi Folks,

In regards to the speaker comments I would say that over my 50 years of involvement what has changed is the ability to make fast and accurate assessments of measurements. Computers have allowed us manufacturers to delve into the smallest differences between product A or B (amps/speakers/digital gear etc.).

For example when I was developing the Bryston speakers we measured a lot of the current speakers on the market as well as some older classic types to see how they would fair when it came to the ‘Sound Power’ they were capable of. Obviously prior to the advent of computers and anechoic facilities (and to some degree gating measurement systems) measuring sound power was essentially impossible due to the number and complexity of the curves needed to be measured. With the Bryston speaker we take 600 measurements all around the speaker in the anechoic chamber to fully understand the total sound power radiated into the room.

I should explain here what the sound power term means:

In a loudspeaker the ‘listening window’ is an average of a front set of curves (usually plus or minus 30 degrees) whereas the ‘sound power response’ is an average of all the curves right around the whole speaker (360 degrees).  What we actually hear seems heavily weighted to be a balance between these two conditions.  The listening windows frequency response should be very linear (flat) across the entire audio band but the sound power should fall off by 8 – 10dB by the time you get to 10kHz while still remaining linear in its march down from the bass frequencies.

So the difference between speaker systems of old and today is the older designs I think relied more on the designer’s talent at finding the balance between known science of the day and their artistic prowess. Today more science is involved based on 1. the listening preference research done over the past 20 years and 2. the ability to assess and quickly measure what is actually going on in any speaker.

Now that does not mean as a designer you discount the listening experience because depending on the weight you give to the sound power response in all directions (both vertically and horizontally) will determine to a great extent how a given speaker will sound in a typical room.

Sorry I got carried away here! – this thread is not about speaker design but I do think the speakers of today come much closer to providing people with better audio in their homes but as stated above that does not seem to matter much in today’s climate.

james

[Johnny2Bad]

Well, James, I would have to agree that the loudspeaker has benefitted the greatest when it comes to applying technology and at a much lower cost (to develop) versus "50 years ago" ... I would say even 20 years ago (January 1997). That isn't to discount the improvements in products like amplifiers and pre-amplifiers, but what you can buy today in a loudspeaker at almost any budget ... it's actually difficult to buy a bad speaker today. Not so in the past.

That is not to imply that a great speaker is "run of the mill" because you do have to make an effort to end up with an outstanding example in your home, but the bar has definitely been raised at the low end and the high.