Herbie talk

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DaveC113

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Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #40 on: 17 Aug 2014, 08:48 pm »
Great post, Steve... Thanks! :thumb:

I will definitely try some of your products.

wgallupe

Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #41 on: 18 Aug 2014, 07:36 pm »
I have the Way Excellent II mat on both of my Thorens tables. Great product.

beowulf

Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #42 on: 22 Aug 2014, 12:48 am »
Great thread and I have learned a lot thus far.  Since all energy seeks earth's ground via the fastest method it derives ~ and you cannot isolate air borne resonance ...

What about the other school of thought that says if something is going to vibrate, let it but devise an efficient means to transfer it to earth's grounding plane ASAP such as what products like Audio Points/Live-Vibe supposedly do?

Thanks for your thoughts and feedback!

Herbie

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Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #43 on: 22 Aug 2014, 01:26 am »
The idea of vibrations "draining" via cones to ground works better in theory than in reality, especially with home audio and video systems.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab
« Last Edit: 22 Aug 2014, 03:29 am by Herbie »

San Marcos

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Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #44 on: 22 Aug 2014, 04:27 am »
Steve, are you saying the laws of physics don't apply to home audio and video?

Herbie

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Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #45 on: 22 Aug 2014, 04:30 am »
Sure, the laws of physics apply. But you see, there are lots and lots of physical laws at play, not just one or two.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

DaveC113

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Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #46 on: 22 Aug 2014, 03:37 pm »
In another thread beowulf pointed out this "white paper" from audiopoints:

http://www.audiopoints.com/CMS/uploads/vibration-and-coulomb-friction-2013_001.pdf

Which looks like the math and diagrams were copied and pasted in it's entirety from here:

http://fsinet.fsid.cvut.cz/en/u2052/node121.html

The conclusions they come to seem dubious at best. Stuff like what is quoted below makes me wonder if the author has a technical education at all. The issue being, the isolation device has damping qualities which reduce the magnitude of the vibration until it stops, or if the input is continuous there will be a degree of attenuation. An isolation device would have to allow movement of the device it is isolating with absolutely no friction in order to not reduce the magnitude of the vibration and serve as a "resonance capacitor". However, this is the exact opposite goal of people who design isolation devices. Isolation devices are designed to attenuate the magnitude of vibration, not preserve it!  The isolation device has mechanical properties that allow it to convert motion (vibration) into heat at a molecular level. This is where the vibration dissipates and it doesn't need to "seek earth's ground", which is a ridiculous concept.

This is demonstrated in one of Herbie's Audio Labs pages that show the effectiveness of the isolation material used at different frequencies, and the attenuation is significant, and ranges from approximately 16-50 dB from 20 Hz on up throughout the audible frequency spectrum. That's a lot of attenuation and in fact the exact opposite of a "resonance capacitor".

I do have a degree in mechanical engineering and I can say that while the math on that paper is accurate (only because it was copied and pasted), the conclusions are laughable. I'm sure Steve doesn't want to get into something where it could be said he has a bias and creates a conflict of interest, but I do not sell any isolation products at all, so I am more than happy to say that the entire premise behind that paper seems flawed to me.


"With regards to airborne resonance, isolation principles serve much like the dielectric material in a capacitance device, essentially turning the component into a giant Resonance Capacitor. "

Folsom

Re: Herbie talk
« Reply #47 on: 22 Aug 2014, 10:46 pm »
It takes a bit of imagination and humility to do anything right for the ear. What's on the paper and what's on our ears isn't consistent. (I'd argue it might be almost coincidental in many regards, distortion for example...) What we know to be true isn't always related to causation and correlation how we want to believe (have written thus). The world is complex, as we must play within the fact that maybe we don't know. The short hand is... you don't know for certain until you try, and education just shortens the ideas you're willing to entertain. 

Why does 100uf of not-low ESR capacitance from line to neutral make guitar amps sound way the hell better. Well there's no math explaining why 100uf can trump 10,000uf that's on the other side of the transformer; or that the reason is even related to functions they both perform.... But it's laughable to say it does nothing when you hear it like you see the difference in black and white.