Benefits of balanced power conditioning/regulation?

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grsimmon

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Benefits of balanced power conditioning/regulation?
« on: 31 Oct 2016, 10:16 pm »
I've been plugging my whole system into an ExactPower voltage regulation box for the last 10 years- no complaints, everything works fine.    But.....I've heard/read that "balanced" power regulation devices work better and reduce noise even further,  so now I'm curious.    So my questions are-
Who makes these balanced power devices?  Torus, Bryston, Furman...or other?   Is it marketing or does this type of implementation work "better" than standard conditioning or voltage regulation?  Thanks for any info. you give, links to articles, personal experience, etc.       -Greg

Early B.

Re: Benefits of balanced power conditioning/regulation?
« Reply #1 on: 31 Oct 2016, 10:27 pm »
Well, the thing about power conditioning is this -- you gotta experiment with different types and in varying configurations to determine what works best in your situation. And if you want to do it right, there's no "inexpensive" option. I have three power conditioning devices between the wall and my components.

Big Red Machine

Re: Benefits of balanced power conditioning/regulation?
« Reply #2 on: 31 Oct 2016, 10:41 pm »
I have tried every topology of power conditioning there is. In the end I found that the better components were quieter and certainly having the main gear on a dedicated circuit is your best chance of very low noise. I put all my crap stuff like power supplies and peripherals on different circuits and that really helps.

Active versus passive - both can work and have except it always seemed devices robbed me of something. So then you have to find which brand is best of that type. I prefer passive and use Audio Magic for all the main components. Come and listen. Practically dead quiet.

Exact Power is a decent unit and you may not do much better with other active-type units. YMMV


bobrapoport

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Re: Benefits of balanced power conditioning/regulation?
« Reply #3 on: 1 Nov 2016, 06:11 pm »
Hello all in this thread, I am Bob Rapoport and since I was responsible for putting Exact Power on the map (I did their global sales and marketing from 2002-2004) I'm qualified to comment on Greg's question.  The EP-15A by Exact Power (no longer made) is unique among power conditioners, its a sine-wave regenerator that specifically focuses on the top 5% of the 60 Hz wave form, not the whole thing like a PS Audio device.  It includes voltage regulation too so not only does it rebuild a portion of the sine wave, it assures a steady voltage.  It uses conventional filters for EMI and RFI like many popular conditioners, surge protection is standard as well.  Exact Power also made a companion device called the SP-15A, a fully balanced isolation transformer that used common mode rejection to eliminate the remaining line noise, buzz, and hum. We sold them as a pair to lots of customers. Some customers with good clean steady power opted just for the SP-15A Balanced Power device because their voltage was steady but a little noisy.  Balanced Power is a unique way to crush the residual noise in high end systems by up to - 15 dB, thats why they're used in recording studios and laboratories around the world  They are the professionals choice.

Now, about conventional power conditioners, not much as changed over the years.  Depending on the brand, they more or less use active filtration to reduce the noise, EMI, and RFI that can intrude from the environment. Voltage regulation is only included in the most expensive designs.  Its the active filtration that many of us object too, it robs our power amps of their true dynamic range.  In other words, the power to run the power conditioner robs the power amp of that current, most people are better off just plugging their power amp into the wall directly.

Balanced Power does not use filters so it delivers the power on demand for the amplifier and all the upstream components as well and eliminates all audible noise, buzz, and hum.  There are only 3 companies making them right now; EquiTech (the originator of the idea in the mid-90s), BPT (dont hear much about them these days), and Core Power Technologies with their Equi=Core series of balanced power devices.  Their model 300 is the subject of a good review by John Gatski at Everythingaudionetwork.com.  My company is Essence For Hi Res Audio, I make my own DACs and Amps but also sell several other brands of products I dont manufacture myself, Core Power is one of them.

Passive devices are less intrusive but how much they do is still the subject of debate. This category is full of snake-oil and voodoo so consumers need to do their homework before making a purchase.  The typical APC, Panamax, Monster type power conditioner is probably not going to yield what some of us call high end performance but they can do the job or protecting against surge, filter some kinds of noise, and provide a bunch of receptacles.  They are like having an insurance policy for your system, to protect it more than make it sound better. Fair enough.  Balanced Power is a clever idea and the results are easy to hear, absolute utter blackness behind the music, providing improved resolution at lower listening levels.  Everything sounds better when the background is silent.

IMHO Greg, you can improve your system by adding a balanced power device downstream from your EP-15A to really eliminate the rest of the grundge on the line.  We can do a free power audit of your system so you know how much power it consumes first, thats the place to start.

Ciao,
Bob

grsimmon

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Re: Benefits of balanced power conditioning/regulation?
« Reply #4 on: 3 Nov 2016, 01:00 pm »
Hello all in this thread, I am Bob Rapoport and since I was responsible for putting Exact Power on the map (I did their global sales and marketing from 2002-2004) I'm qualified to comment on Greg's question.  The EP-15A by Exact Power (no longer made) is unique among power conditioners, its a sine-wave regenerator that specifically focuses on the top 5% of the 60 Hz wave form, not the whole thing like a PS Audio device.  It includes voltage regulation too so not only does it rebuild a portion of the sine wave, it assures a steady voltage.  It uses conventional filters for EMI and RFI like many popular conditioners, surge protection is standard as well.  Exact Power also made a companion device called the SP-15A, a fully balanced isolation transformer that used common mode rejection to eliminate the remaining line noise, buzz, and hum. We sold them as a pair to lots of customers. Some customers with good clean steady power opted just for the SP-15A Balanced Power device because their voltage was steady but a little noisy.  Balanced Power is a unique way to crush the residual noise in high end systems by up to - 15 dB, thats why they're used in recording studios and laboratories around the world  They are the professionals choice.

Now, about conventional power conditioners, not much as changed over the years.  Depending on the brand, they more or less use active filtration to reduce the noise, EMI, and RFI that can intrude from the environment. Voltage regulation is only included in the most expensive designs.  Its the active filtration that many of us object too, it robs our power amps of their true dynamic range.  In other words, the power to run the power conditioner robs the power amp of that current, most people are better off just plugging their power amp into the wall directly.

Balanced Power does not use filters so it delivers the power on demand for the amplifier and all the upstream components as well and eliminates all audible noise, buzz, and hum.  There are only 3 companies making them right now; EquiTech (the originator of the idea in the mid-90s), BPT (dont hear much about them these days), and Core Power Technologies with their Equi=Core series of balanced power devices.  Their model 300 is the subject of a good review by John Gatski at Everythingaudionetwork.com.  My company is Essence For Hi Res Audio, I make my own DACs and Amps but also sell several other brands of products I dont manufacture myself, Core Power is one of them.

Passive devices are less intrusive but how much they do is still the subject of debate. This category is full of snake-oil and voodoo so consumers need to do their homework before making a purchase.  The typical APC, Panamax, Monster type power conditioner is probably not going to yield what some of us call high end performance but they can do the job or protecting against surge, filter some kinds of noise, and provide a bunch of receptacles.  They are like having an insurance policy for your system, to protect it more than make it sound better. Fair enough.  Balanced Power is a clever idea and the results are easy to hear, absolute utter blackness behind the music, providing improved resolution at lower listening levels.  Everything sounds better when the background is silent.

IMHO Greg, you can improve your system by adding a balanced power device downstream from your EP-15A to really eliminate the rest of the grundge on the line.  We can do a free power audit of your system so you know how much power it consumes first, thats the place to start.

Ciao,
Bob


Very informative, thanks for taking the time.  Now I have even more questions :0  hopefully Bob you will check back -

1)   If I'm able to track down the matching ExactPower SP15A,   do you think it's worth pursuing?  As simple as this is,  I never considered this.  In fact I didn't know it was an option,  I thought I could use one or the other, but not both.

2)    Regarding Furman:  they currently market some of their units as being balanced power - is this not true?,  or misleading, etc.?  Please explain,   I'm not disagreeing with you,  I'm just unfamiliar.

3)   ExactPower - what ever happened to them,  why were they sold etc. etc. -  I thought they made a great product.   Just curious.


Thanks again, Greg

Armaegis

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Re: Benefits of balanced power conditioning/regulation?
« Reply #5 on: 3 Nov 2016, 03:39 pm »
I too would like to hear his thoughts on Furman.

DaveC113

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Re: Benefits of balanced power conditioning/regulation?
« Reply #6 on: 3 Nov 2016, 04:11 pm »
IF I were going with balanced power I'd look at Torus as they use a similar surge elimination scheme as Zero Surge, SurgeX, etc.  However, I probably wouldn't bother... it won't achieve it's theoretical noise reduction and can't replace a decent emi/rfi filter anyways. It's completely possible to achieve a very low noise system without balanced power, isolation trafos, etc...

So... I'd concentrate on a conditioner that has a good emi/rfi filter and non-mov based surge protection, like Zero Surge or SurgeX. Far less money, less complexity and can do what is needed... remove noise and protect your equipment.

FWIW, I have a single ended tube-based amplification system with a ~105 dB sensitive midrange horn, you can put your head inside the horn and hear absolutely nothing, no noise at all. How much better does it need to be? Balanced power and balanced source/amps are technically better but in a home environment often provide no benefit.




jea48

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Re: Benefits of balanced power conditioning/regulation?
« Reply #7 on: 3 Nov 2016, 05:20 pm »

Very informative, thanks for taking the time.  Now I have even more questions :0  hopefully Bob you will check back -

1)   If I'm able to track down the matching ExactPower SP15A,   do you think it's worth pursuing?  As simple as this is,  I never considered this.  In fact I didn't know it was an option,  I thought I could use one or the other, but not both.

2)    Regarding Furman:  they currently market some of their units as being balanced power - is this not true?,  or misleading, etc.?  Please explain,   I'm not disagreeing with you,  I'm just unfamiliar.

3)   ExactPower - what ever happened to them,  why were they sold etc. etc. -  I thought they made a great product.   Just curious.


Thanks again, Greg

Quote
2)    Regarding Furman:  they currently market some of their units as being balanced power - is this not true?,  or misleading, etc.?

The Furman P2400IT has a true balanced output. 60/120V, 60V 0V 60V.
http://furmansound.com/pdf/pdfdata/Furman_Technote_P2400IT_Applications.pdf

So does this one.
http://www.furmansound.com/product.php?id=IT-20_II

This one too.
http://www.furmansound.com/pdf/datasheets/IT-1210_IT-1220_IT-1230_datasheet.pdf

Johnny2Bad

Re: Benefits of balanced power conditioning/regulation?
« Reply #8 on: 3 Nov 2016, 07:02 pm »
" ...
Balanced Power does not use filters so it delivers the power on demand for the amplifier and all the upstream components as well and eliminates all audible noise, buzz, and hum. There are only 3 companies making them right now; EquiTech (the originator of the idea in the mid-90s), BPT (dont hear much about them these days), and Core Power Technologies with their Equi=Core series of balanced power devices.
..."

No love for Hammond? Furman? There are a number of companies that only offer 220/240V systems as well.

In any case I agree that a Balanced power system can offer benefits to virtually any home AC power source. What makes it especially worthwhile is that power system performance (what your utility is feeding your home) varies considerably; you may see no benefit from some Power products, but everyone can get a quieter audio and video power feed from a balanced AC outlet.

Folsom

Re: Benefits of balanced power conditioning/regulation?
« Reply #9 on: 3 Nov 2016, 08:43 pm »
Some people say that balanced power transformers rob bass if they aren't close enough to the stereo. I cannot confirm this, but I might have a solution to that problem if it's true.

Overall I have to say voltage regulation is ok, but not the kind of benefactor we'd like it to be. I wouldn't base decisions on if a device had it. Does it improve anything? Yes but if it's at an appreciable level is another question to which the answer is typically no, from my experience.

SurgeX is an affordable option that works good. I personally can make power conditioners at what I consider a SOTA level, but they are expensive; out of most people's budget by a good ways.
« Last Edit: 6 Nov 2016, 08:54 am by Folsom »

Armaegis

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Re: Benefits of balanced power conditioning/regulation?
« Reply #10 on: 4 Nov 2016, 06:30 am »
SurgeX is an affordable option that works good. I personally can make them at what I consider a SOTA level, but they are expensive; out of most people's budget by a good ways.

What exactly/how much would such a project entail?

richidoo

Re: Benefits of balanced power conditioning/regulation?
« Reply #11 on: 4 Nov 2016, 01:42 pm »
http://www.equitech.com/articles/articles.html

Lots of advantages. The only disadvantage that you will only hear from owners is the transformers have a small hum that is annoying.

DaveC113

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Re: Benefits of balanced power conditioning/regulation?
« Reply #12 on: 4 Nov 2016, 03:32 pm »
What exactly/how much would such a project entail?

Not to be a jerk, but I've been doing that for the last couple years and have won multiple awards at RMAF for it. It's not something that is ok to bring up in this part of the forum though...  :nono:

As far as balanced power, the theoretical advantages often don't play out in a home system. One story... at RMAF 2014 VSA was getting some nasty glare and harshness even while using an Equi=Tech or whatever. It's a misconception that BP is a solution to these kinds of issues... I suggested we try the SurgeX and it cured the issue, with the system going on to win TAS Best In Show award in the cost-no-object category. For the types of issues often encountered a BP system is of little benefit. What does benefit the average system is emi/rfi filtration and surge elimination. I'd consider these essential and way more important than balanced power.

JDUBS

Re: Benefits of balanced power conditioning/regulation?
« Reply #13 on: 4 Nov 2016, 04:55 pm »
Some people say that balanced power transformers rob bass if they aren't close enough to the stereo. I cannot confirm this, but I might have a solution to that problem if it's true.

Folsom, can you expand on this?

Thanks,
Jim

Folsom

Re: Benefits of balanced power conditioning/regulation?
« Reply #14 on: 4 Nov 2016, 06:32 pm »
Jim I haven't personally heard the issue and been aware of it. But that's something that gets talked about. I can say I've heard a stereo with it closer to the equipment and farther, and subjectively I'd say there was more bass on the one closer. But then again I couldn't say for sure with entirely different stereos and music. The one with "less" sounded better all around so again not an easy thing to determine exactly.

What can be done about it? I think I can make something you'd put right in the box, that could eliminate this issue. Maybe it won't, but since transformers of all types respond somewhat similarly it's worth a try. It would just connect to each pole, and be a little box. Essentially you'd be breaking a potential cycle of certain frequencies that will try and saturate the transformer, if only in a micro way - it can have huge affects in an amplifier for example.

Armaegis

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Re: Benefits of balanced power conditioning/regulation?
« Reply #15 on: 4 Nov 2016, 07:51 pm »

Not to be a jerk, but I've been doing that for the last couple years and have won multiple awards at RMAF for it. It's not something that is ok to bring up in this part of the forum though...  :nono:

Not sure why I'm being singled out for asking a question here?...  :?  :?

Early B.

Re: Benefits of balanced power conditioning/regulation?
« Reply #16 on: 4 Nov 2016, 08:17 pm »
Not sure why I'm being singled out for asking a question here?...  :?  :?

Send Dave an email and inquire about pricing. He built my SurgeX power conditioner and I was quite impressed with the sonic improvements it made. Great customer service, too.

Armaegis

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Re: Benefits of balanced power conditioning/regulation?
« Reply #17 on: 4 Nov 2016, 08:43 pm »
Oh I see... I misunderstood and thought I was being chastised for something.

DaveC113

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Re: Benefits of balanced power conditioning/regulation?
« Reply #18 on: 4 Nov 2016, 09:55 pm »
Not sure why I'm being singled out for asking a question here?...  :?  :?

Sorry, not directed at you... that was for Folsom. The first thing is, it's kinda stepping on my toes... not a big deal but I'd hope others aren't going to start modding SurgeX units as it's MY idea. ;) Second thing is industry folks shouldn't promote their work if it's not in a mfg'ers circle.

Johnny2Bad

Re: Benefits of balanced power conditioning/regulation?
« Reply #19 on: 4 Nov 2016, 10:04 pm »
Blocking DC present on some AC home supplies can reduce or eliminate buzzing/vibration on toroidal transformers. Not sure if it works on other types, but it might.