AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Critic's Circle (Equipment Reviews) => Source Component Reviews => Topic started by: pardales on 20 Jun 2008, 11:55 pm
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I feel I have reached a pretty definitive conclusion about the sonic differences between the Audiosector USB DAC and the Altmann Attraction DAC, which I had owned for 2 years. As always, YMMV, these are my opinions based on my experience in my room and my system, etc., etc.
Here goes: These DAC's are equivalent from the standpoint that one is not superior to the other in a majority of different sonic properties (enter your favorite categories here). So, I believe it is a matter of personal and system preference which one is more desirable. I have made these comparisons using both the SPDIF version and the USB version of the Audiosector DAC -- though I am using the USB version in my system. Amp used for comparisons is the Altmann BYOB, and my Lowther DX-3-based speakers.
Here are the key differences in my estimation:
1. Voices are more palpable/real through the Audiosector.
2. Altmann has slightly better definition on the bottom end - notes are more rounded.
3. Altmann has slightly better tonal balance and a bit more refinement in the sound (air if you will).
4. Audiosector is slightly more forgiving on mediocre recordings, yet, I feel I can hear just a bit deeper into recordings than on the Altmann.
5. Audiosector has a more engaging presence while the Altmann, with its refinement, is just a bit more distant.
Incidentally, member Bucky mentioned that he believed there to be very minor differences between these two DAC's in the "which DAC for my 30.2 thread" on the RWA forum.
In conclusion: The similarities between these two DAC's is greater than the differences. The differences that exist are subtle. The noted differences will be important to some while others will consider them unimportant.
I hope this comparison is helpful to some of you out there.
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I don't see anything about this DAC on the Audiosector website. Where can I find out more about it? What's the cost?
Thanks!
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Here is one review:
http://6moons.com/audioreviews/audiozone5/system.html
An assembled USB DAC is $380, the SPDIF version is less. You can email Peter Daniel through the Audiosector website and he will send you specific info (and pictures). He is a fine person to deal with. The DAC comes standard on a wood platform but Peter has some nice enclosures that are extra.
Also, if you scroll down a little in his site to where it says, "latest news", there is some info about the DAC.
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Could'nt agree more, I've been running his NOSDAC for two years and is excellent for the $$$ spent. Peter is a great guy to boot, VERY helpful!
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=9574)
Me too. There are dacs that are better, but far more expensive as well. Peter has a nice unit with a great price point. How much is the Altmann by the way?
Anand.
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Man your stuff is beautiful Anand! Hope all is well with you.
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Art!
Thanks for the compliments. Too bad my photography sucks (partially cause my camera sucks too). Of course your entire SYSTEM is the one to die for. I'm so jealous I don't live in Dallas. I would bring loads of beer and just veg in front of those LS9's.
Next time I visit my in laws...I'll be knocking on your door :thumb:
Regards to you and your family,
Anand.
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The invitation is always open to you sir! :thumb:
Have any of you guys compared the Altman or Audiosector to the Ack! 2.0 High Res? I'm really of the mind to add a non/os DAC to run my MBL through when I'm in the mood and really haven't heard any of these....I have a line on a 2.0 High Resolution Ack! but then one of Peter's came up here today...
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The Altmann starts at 750 Euros for the stock model (www.mother-of-tone.com). There are several options worth having though so it can go up to 1400 Euros. I still believe it to be one of the very best DAC's out there regardless of price (of course, I have not heard them all). I did own it for 2 years and loved it.
For the price, the Audiosector is hard to beat (I have not heard all the DAC's in this price range either though). As you can see from my comparison above, I believe the Audiosector and the Altmann share many great strengths.
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pardales, this could be OT but i can't avoid noticing that you still have BYOB which is IMHO (no matter of mods done) much inferior product (compared to other amps) than altmann's DAC.
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For the price, the Audiosector is hard to beat (I have not heard all the DAC's in this price range either though). As you can see from my comparison above, I believe the Audiosector and the Altmann share many great strengths.
Having owned both DACs until recently, I agree. Especially after the AC in my house has been improved, the gap between these two DACs is much shorter.
Pardales, I wonder which power (AC/DC) are you using to feed the DAC? I've been using a Red Top Optima. Also, I am thinking of getting a BYOB amp although have been using an AS Patek SE for a while. Maybe it (the BYOB amp) will drive a Bob Brines DX3 based speaker.
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Paul_Bui: I was using the Optima Red Top to drive my Altmann components. I Have wondered if a better PS might close the gap between the two....your comment about better AC makes me think it might. How to get a better PS for the Audiosector....I wonder......Also, the BYOB will drive a Brines DX3 based speaker just fine as it had plenty of power for my DX3 based speaker and was a great match.
Anusbisgrau: Nope, don't have the BYOB anymore (see signature line).....I don't completely agree with you though....I thought the BYOB bettered many a big name amp I had in my system. Could be my taste though, I also preferred the Attraction DAC to the Dodson 218.
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bump for some follow-up I made.
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Late post...
Peters NOS USB DAC has been playing for more than a year in my 'system'...many enjoyable hours listening to this little wonder... :thumb: :thumb: (2 thumbs up).
t
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I'll third the AudioSector USB NOS DAC. It has been in my system for many months and it's the best digital I've owned through my Bob Brines DX-3 speakers. Previous digital was Jolida JD-100, RA Audio Opus 21 & Consonance CD-120 Linear.
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I can't contain my excitement - mine is on its way - Peter was kind enough to send me a picture (hope this works .... I'm not finding it easy to post a picture) .... ok, that didn't work ... so here's a hyperlink to the picture in my gallery.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=1542&pos=0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=1542&pos=0)
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I just received mine yesterday.
It's been plugged in and been fed a signal from my laptop since I received it. Out of the box, it sounds very good. I haven't noticed any changes in the way it sounds yet. I thought the DAC would go through a transition stage since it is loaded with Blackgates. Will the DAC experience any burn in down the road?
I have an USB Monica that probably didn't settle down until about a month and a half. I've complained about the way my system sounded after I added the Monica in another thread. I should have been more patient and waited before making too many judgments about it. It really sounds quite good now. And, I really should refrain from making too many comments about the Audio Sector now, but I can't contain myself. It sounds great right out of the box. It would be gravy if the DAC can actually improve on its current sound quality after burn in.
(http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq301/etane1/AS.jpg)
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most audible changes occur in first 24 hrs. keep plugged in to mains 24/7/365 for best sound...
after one year, I made a PC from Supra lo-rad cable and wattgates...improvement over volex PC was noted...
t
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Agreed. Some changes from 0 - 20 hours or so, but seriously, it sounds great right out of the box.
In general, I think it sounds best with an active preamplifier, but was really quite quite good with the passive on my Red Wine 30.2 Integrated too.
The AudioSector is one of my favorite DACs period.
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I am using 47 Labs' OTA wire with Furutech IEC ends as powercord. This was the best cord out of many when I was doing a shoot out back when I first started using my Nixon DAC. I still have an Eichmann PC I can plug it into. I will probably do that after I go home this evening.
Also, my amp is a tube integrated with passive attenuation and really don't have an active pre at the moment. It would be interesting to hear the improvements with an active pre. However, it is already sounding very good at the moment.
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I've got an Audiosector SPDIF DAC on the way. Glad to hear that you like the USB version. :D
Regarding break-in, my experience is based on Black Gate, Sonicap Platinum, and Mundorf Silver/Gold mods to Aspen AKSA and Life Force amps and the Aspen GK-1 preamp, so YMMV... but IME the break-in process can easily take a couple of hundred hours, often a lot more. During the break-in period I let my system run 24/7 for week or two. During that time I listen to music, but--whatever I'm hearing--I expect things to have changed by the next time I can listen.
A few times, it's been absolutely heartbreaking... one night the music will be absolutely wonderful (sweet highs that go on forever, detailed but not etched, punchy bass) but the next night it's all gone schreechy, or way recessed. I'm not saying that this will happen to you, but if it does, just back off and let it cook until it settles down... no celebration, no doom, just be patient.
Off the soapbox...
Good luck,
Peter
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quote from Peters thread in DIYAudio...(hope this does not constitute double-posting or some other no-no...)
question from owner/builder:
'as it burns in does the sound change any?'
Peters' reply:
"The DAC sounds good right from the beginning, first hour is always most critical for warming up. It will further improve over the weeks though, keep it on all the time."
"The design has been favourably accepted by everybody, here's some comments I received from the most happy customers:
It is the best DAC in my system ever! Beats two Wadia players, an Audio Note Dac Kit 1.1 with all BG and AN copper in oil caps and tantalum resistors, Bel Canto 2.o and Cal Audio Alpha, using the cheapest interconnect ever, between my modded TL-2x and the DAC.
The units are terrific. I've been running them in for only a few hours now. But man I'm blown away already. This is some really high end sounding ****! Excuse the languange.LOL
I'm already having a blast with how well the overtones are of Pianos and every other instrument that comes through. This Dac is excellent. It lets the music just flow. Everythings there..just more vivid than I've heard it. Separation is amazing with the little combo. It's a match made in heaven with my FTA-2000s. Honestly it's the most musical sounding setup I've ever owned. How's that for a first impression! And the damn things aren't broken in yet. Whatever your doing ..keep right on doing it...your definitely on the right track!
A friend of mine, who's very mysterious and don't want to say much, have built your DAC using AN silver caps, some other exotic parts and different PS. In the end he sold his Audio Note M3 DAC, which was upgraded to M5!!! He claims your DAC is better.
I can't guarantee the authenticity of the last quote though"
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I am in the process of building one of these Audiosector USB DACs for myself. I already received all the parts, including an attenuator that I will incorporate in the build so I can forego using a preamp. Hope to have it built in a couple of weeks or so. Looking at all the feedback posted re: the DAC, I am really looking forward to running it in my system! A cheap, and hopefully stunning, entry into the world of computer-based (Macbook Pro) audio.
I will post impressions once broken in an played for a while.
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Peter emailed me and explained that burn in is only critical during the first few hours. But, others have claimed burn in isn't complete until after 30 days.
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Does anyone know the output specs, voltage, impedance, for this DAC?
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2v out, not sure of the output Z.
Does anyone know the output specs, voltage, impedance, for this DAC?
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Output impedance is 2700 ohms. Output voltage is 2V RMS at 0db. The output impedance can be made lower but that will also lower the output voltage. Peter used a simple resistor for the current to voltage conversion. The resistors are high quality Rikens. With a 20K input impedance for the amplifier of choice, there really should be no problems with high frequency rolloff. That being said, I know fellas who have amps with a 10K input impedance and it works just fine.
As far as burn in, I thought the DAC sounded fantastic right after I finished building it. Its got a ton of "PRAT" = Pacing, Rhythm, Acceleration and Timing. A foot tapper for sure. I'm sure it broke in even more, but this is one design that didn't have a break in merry go round to deal with. I say that because a lot of fellas say that is true with units that employ Black Gate capacitors. In fact the output capacitor on this unit is a Black Gate NX type, but it sure doesn't sound like an electrolytic. Take it for what its worth, I am no expert on break in.
Best,
Anand.
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Yes, I am experiencing mucho PRAT with the Audio Sector DAC since the first moment I plugged it in. I've only experienced slightly more PRAT in my system when I had an analog system and only after I've upgraded the phono pre's PSU (Trichord) and and the motor's transformer (Origin Live).
It's been about 48 hours, and I haven't experienced any noticeable burn in.
I just replaced a PC from 47 OTA to Eichmann. It sounds like a different DAC now. Much more romantic sounding, mellow, airy, relaxed, textured... big difference.
This is not the first time I preferred the Eichmann over the OTA on a component. However, I always end up going back to the OTA after awhile. But, this is time, the difference between the two power cables on this DAC is not subtle at all.
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I have one on the way (ordered before Paypal incident, and before I knew the funding processes was going to be mutilated by UPS).
My BlackGate experience.
First I put them in a Sharp SD-EX111 and the initial sound was better. I did not keep track of the hours. However after a long enough time to know for sure that I had reached the same amount of hours as my SqueezeBox took, I can confirm the same changes happened.
My Squeezebox3 has a couple in it. At 200hrs it had a very nice improvement and became vesy listenable. However Wayne stated some people, perhaps including him, felt that around 400-600hrs is where it really finished. In both devices my experience goes that at 200hrs you get a nice change, and at 400-600hrs it finalizes into a very relaxed, super smooth state that does not make you think electrolytic at all.
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My Audiosector SPDIF DAC arrived, went together smoothly, and is now playing.
During burn-in, I've listened to the same CD (Vanska conducting the Minnesota Orchestra, Beethoven's 3rd Symphony on BIS) at close to the same level throughout. Initially, at 2-5 hours, the DAC sounded very nice, but a bit detailed and bright. Next day (24 hours) = "very, very nice". At 48 hr it sounded very recessed, almost muffled. At 72 and 96 hours it's sounding more and more musical, tonally balanced, and detailed without going overboard. Now (last night), I'm thinking that this is an exceptionally nice DAC. I feel like "they're here", and there is no listener fatigue at all. At this point, I'm extremely happy with my purchase and expect to buy the USB version when I eventually move to a Mac and iTunes based system.
It's likely that the sonic character if the DAC will wander around for another 2-3 weeks before settling down, but IME with other Black Gate mods these changes are not likely to be large.
For burn-in, when I'm not listening to music, I run CDP --> Audiosector DAC --> preamp and rest of system turned off
I use the Burn-in track (track #9) from the Reference Recordings XLO test disk ( http://www.referencerecordings.com/SAMPLE.asp (http://www.referencerecordings.com/SAMPLE.asp) ). This track may (or may not) accelerate the burn-in process.
I'll post my impressions in a month or two when the DAC reaches steady state and I've had a chance to form an opinion.
Peter
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My Audiosector SPDIF DAC arrived, went together smoothly, and is now playing.
During burn-in, I've listened to the same CD (Vanska conducting the Minnesota Orchestra, Beethoven's 3rd Symphony on BIS) at close to the same level throughout. Initially, at 2-5 hours, the DAC sounded very nice, but a bit detailed and bright. Next day (24 hours) = "very, very nice". At 48 hr it sounded very recessed, almost muffled. At 72 and 96 hours it's sounding more and more musical, tonally balanced, and detailed without going overboard. Now (last night), I'm thinking that this is an exceptionally nice DAC. I feel like "they're here", and there is no listener fatigue at all. At this point, I'm extremely happy with my purchase and expect to buy the USB version when I eventually move to a Mac and iTunes based system.
It's likely that the sonic character if the DAC will wander around for another 2-3 weeks before settling down, but IME with other Black Gate mods these changes are not likely to be large.
For burn-in, when I'm not listening to music, I run CDP --> Audiosector DAC --> preamp and rest of system turned off
I use the Burn-in track (track #9) from the Reference Recordings XLO test disk ( http://www.referencerecordings.com/SAMPLE.asp (http://www.referencerecordings.com/SAMPLE.asp) ). This track may (or may not) accelerate the burn-in process.
I'll post my impressions in a month or two when the DAC reaches steady state and I've had a chance to form an opinion.
Peter
Peter,
Does the kit come with all the parts shown in the image on the first page of this thread? When I go to the Audiosector website, I can't find any information on the DAC. . .is there another site?
Thanks!!
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Catastrofe,
E-mail peter daniel for specifics at phdaniel@sympatico.ca. The audiosector includes parts (very good parts!), but Peter sells the DAC in a number of configurations: with/without an enclosure, with/without an optical interface, etc. Discuss options with him, tell him what you want, he'll quote you a price.
The kit comes with parts, a PCB (very high quality), a schematic, and pictures of the completed DAC. It's up to you to put it together correctly. It took me maybe 3 hours, but I work very slowly.
Good luck,
Peter
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Thanks Peter.
Does anyone have comments on how the Audiosector sounds compared to some of the "mid-priced" ($1.5K - $2.5K) DACs on the market. There are quite a few well received/respected units out there; Bryston, Van Alstine, Red Wine Audio, Cullen Modified DLIII, Upcoming PS Ultralink.
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Thanks Peter.
Does anyone have comments on how the Audiosector sounds compared to some of the "mid-priced" ($1.5K - $2.5K) DACs on the market. There are quite a few well received/respected units out there; Bryston, Van Alstine, Red Wine Audio, Cullen Modified DLIII, Upcoming PS Ultralink.
You know some depend on taste, the Red Wine Audio unit has tubes so it may be judged on completely different set of rules.
I doubt the common stuff you will find in Stereophile will come close. Peter's DAC according to him and others spank a lot of high end things like Mark Levinson etc.
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I just received my Peter Daniel SPDIF DAC today. :thumb:
Should have time to get it in the system and burning in tomorrow.
Peter was great to deal with. 8)
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Glad you are all enjoying the Audiosector. It really is a great DAC. :thumb:
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Does anyone have comments on how the Audiosector sounds compared to some of the "mid-priced" ($1.5K - $2.5K) DACs on the market. There are quite a few well received/respected units out there; Bryston, Van Alstine, Red Wine Audio, Cullen Modified DLIII, Upcoming PS Ultralink.
With respect to the DACs that you've listed, I own both the AudioSector USB and the Red Wine Isabellina.
When paired with the Red Wine Audio Signature 30.2 Integrated with 20Kohm input impedance, the RWA Isabellina has a lower noise floor, is more dynamic, and more transparent. The AudioSector is more romantic. Both are very musical, and neither is edgy or bright in any way whatsoever.
With an active preamp like, say, the Modwright SWL 9.0SE in the chain, to my ears the differences diminish, but the Isabellina remains clearly the better DAC. The premium that the Isabellina commands is not wasted, but the AudioSector is *very* competitive, and remains one of my favourite DACs.
In short, the AudioSector isn't as good, but it's very very good indeed.
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hmmm...
$2500 for Isabellina
$280 for Peter Daniel USB
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hmmm...
$2500 for Isabellina
$280 for Peter Daniel USB
That is why, these days, I am simply not willing to spend over $750 on a DAC. There is such good stuff to be had in that price range I just do not feel it necessary to spend more than that. Digital has evolved quickly, and I would say momentously in the last 3-5 years -- redbook has finally come of age.
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has anyone compared the Audiosector with a MHDT Paradisea+ or Havana? Debating between these but not sure yet.
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I have both...
Paradisea+ has that smooth 'tubeness' you either like or hate as it were...very musical but not as 'present' as PD...
PD USB has a bit more 'edge' or 'detail' but not bright. More 'PrAT' and 'slam' if that makes any sense. Very musical and hard to ignore...
My opinion, my ears, room, rig, etc. KingRex T-20 and KingRex Pre-amp sounds better with Paradisea+. 300B SET monos and 6SN7 pre from Wright Sound is better with the PD USB...YMMV
t
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Ah thanks. Maybe the PD would fit my stax better since my O2 MK1 tends to be more laid back somewhat.
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Depending on your personal tastes there are a few things you can do to make the PD Dac fit the bell just as much as the Iss ( I bet)
The noise floor on PD's ideas for power supply drops to black with good AC power filtering, at least with my experience. A Felix would be ok, but a lot more capacitance would be better. The Iss has built in power filtering via battery so of course it has some better characteristics out the box.
Also you can play with the PD by removing certain plastic on certain capacitors, and then grounding the can (my new experiment that has gone very well with a PD amplifier with Blackgates which have isolated cans). That is another discussion perhaps because there are concerns which may or may not be concerns. You can check for voltage but it should all be inducted and have so low of amperage it does not matter how much voltage or how you attach a ground (to star, or whatever you run). Try at own risk. As of right now I would ONLY recommend it on the two output caps until further notice because I need to review schematic.
I do fully intend on a buffer line amp, the output of the PD is only 2v. Plus most amplifiers' input is way to low of gain for the 2v tops. I changed mine on my PD amp and had way better results.
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Almost close to getting a PD. Probably get the SPDIF version since I'm on the list for a off-ramp 3. Just mulling about before I make a decision :p
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Hey Guys,
I have finally decided to take the plunge on an Audio Sector DAC, however Peter has not responded to several e-mails sent to him over the last few weeks with a couple minor questions. This is a bit disheartening, but understandable if he has a lot of orders.
Do I have his e-mail address right: 'phdaniel@sympatico.ca'? Is there a better way to reach him other than e-mail?
He has set up an easy ordering system for his chip and other amp offerings at his Audio Sector website, but not for the DAC options.
Anyway thanks for any suggestions you might offer. I am trying to purchase an assembled DAC with a coax input, transformer, Cardas dual RCA's, and assembled on a wooden board. Similar to the pix Viggen posted and Peter has posted on DIY Audio, except with a coax input not a USB input.
Cheers,
Roger
nature boy
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Hey Guys,
I have finally decided to take the plunge on an Audio Sector DAC, however Peter has not responded to several e-mails sent to him over the last few weeks with a couple minor questions. This is a bit disheartening, but understandable if he has a lot of orders.
Do I have his e-mail address right: 'phdaniel@sympatico.ca'? Is there a better way to reach him other than e-mail?
He has set up an easy ordering system for his chip and other amp offerings at his Audio Sector website, but not for the DAC options.
Anyway thanks for any suggestions you might offer. I am trying to purchase an assembled DAC with a coax input, transformer, Cardas dual RCA's, and assembled on a wooden board. Similar to the pix Viggen posted and Peter has posted on DIY Audio, except with a coax input not a USB input.
Cheers,
Roger
nature boy
That is the email address I have for him. He has generally responded within 24 hours when I communicated with him in the past. Hang in there, maybe he is away or very busy. This DIY version of the Audiosector DAC looks tempting:
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlconv&1232583996&/Audio-zone-nos-dac-custombuild
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I had the same experience with Peter Daniel... I wrote to him ~3 months ago to discuss DAC options and prices, then ordered, and when the DAC came I had a couple of questions... there must have been a dozen e-mail exchanges between us and every time he answered within a day or two, and many times he answered within hours.
I am sure he's way busy or away for a few days.
Peter
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No other "reviews"?
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Peter has been very responsive to me in the past. He might just be on vacation for a couple of weeks. It wouldn't hurt to send him another email in case it got lost in the mountain of email that he probably gets from time to time.
As for more reviews:
In a previous post in this thread, I compared the AudioSector USB DAC to the Isabellina. I said the Isabellina was better, but you know, the Isabellina is also 4x-5x the price of the AudioSector.
I've heard a lot of DACs over the past couple of years. The Wavelength Brick, the Electrocompaniet ECD-1, the iRock, the built-in DAC of the Bel Canto S300iu, the Benchmark DAC1, the CityPulse, the Zhaolu, the Channel Islands VDA2, PS Audio DLIII. A lot of DACs. I haven't tried them all, but I've tried an awful many of them.
I've had the pleasure of recommending the AudioSector USB DAC to a number of people, and so far the praise is effusive. Here's part of an email that someone wrote to me a number of months ago regarding the AudioSector USB DAC recommendation I made:
"Peter was very helpful and built the DAC in a few days. The DAC looks even better than pictured. Fit and finish are first rate. I like the compact size and that it runs fairly cool to the touch. And the sound is truly amazing!!!!!. Right out of the box, this DAC is stunning. Music is much clearer and better resolved with excellent tonal quality. I didn't know my speakers were capable of such awesome bass response. And nothing bright or edgy about the sound either....... just nicely balanced.
"My system has never sounded better, and I have total control over music selection with some great looking, new gear. Thanks so much for your suggestions and help along the way."
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Peter has been very responsive to me in the past. He might just be on vacation for a couple of weeks. It wouldn't hurt to send him another email in case it got lost in the mountain of email that he probably gets from time to time.
As for more reviews:
In a previous post in this thread, I compared the AudioSector USB DAC to the Isabellina. I said the Isabellina was better, but you know, the Isabellina is also 4x-5x the price of the AudioSector.
I've heard a lot of DACs over the past couple of years. The Wavelength Brick, the Electrocompaniet ECD-1, the iRock, the built-in DAC of the Bel Canto S300iu, the Benchmark DAC1, the CityPulse, the Zhaolu, the Channel Islands VDA2, PS Audio DLIII. A lot of DACs. I haven't tried them all, but I've tried an awful many of them.
I've had the pleasure of recommending the AudioSector USB DAC to a number of people, and so far the praise is effusive. Here's part of an email that someone wrote to me a number of months ago regarding the AudioSector USB DAC recommendation I made:
"Peter was very helpful and built the DAC in a few days. The DAC looks even better than pictured. Fit and finish are first rate. I like the compact size and that it runs fairly cool to the touch. And the sound is truly amazing!!!!!. Right out of the box, this DAC is stunning. Music is much clearer and better resolved with excellent tonal quality. I didn't know my speakers were capable of such awesome bass response. And nothing bright or edgy about the sound either....... just nicely balanced.
"My system has never sounded better, and I have total control over music selection with some great looking, new gear. Thanks so much for your suggestions and help along the way."
That's pretty good, thanks.
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Peter Daniel is without question an exceptional designer. I have his TDA1543 NOS DAC and for the pricepoint it is very good. But with slightly more effort and money you can go well beyond the AS DAC. Some claim it will best the Attmann and for anyone chasing redbook perfection I would strongly recommend having a look at Pedja Rogic's http://www.pedjarogic.com/1541a/rev2.htm (http://www.pedjarogic.com/1541a/rev2.htm) AYA DAC. I have one and it is magic!
Regards,
Dan :D
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I want to add some caution to my previous posting.
If I recollect correctly, the AudioSector DAC has an output impedance of 2300 ohms. As I'm sure many of you know (but some don't, so I'll repeat it here) an often quoted rule of thumb for audio electronics is that the input impedance of the receiver should be at least 10x the output impedance of the source. I've found that 20Kohms input impedance on my RWA 30.2 integrated was quite good enough, and certainly the 50Kohm input impedance of the Modwright SWL 9.0SE was more than enough.
However, if you've got a preamp or integrated amp with less than 20Kohm input impedance, then off-hand I wouldn't recommend the AudioSector. The Nuforce P8 preamp, for example, has a 4000 ohm input Z, and my guess is that it really isn't going to do the trick here.
A lot of the NOS DACs out there have higher output impedances, and if you're looking for that NOS DAC sound, you'll just have to be a bit mindful about impedance matching, whether you can use a passive, etc.
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Depending on your personal tastes there are a few things you can do to make the PD Dac fit the bell just as much as the Iss ( I bet)
The noise floor on PD's ideas for power supply drops to black with good AC power filtering, at least with my experience. A Felix would be ok, but a lot more capacitance would be better. The Iss has built in power filtering via battery so of course it has some better characteristics out the box.
Also you can play with the PD by removing certain plastic on certain capacitors, and then grounding the can (my new experiment that has gone very well with a PD amplifier with Blackgates which have isolated cans). That is another discussion perhaps because there are concerns which may or may not be concerns. You can check for voltage but it should all be inducted and have so low of amperage it does not matter how much voltage or how you attach a ground (to star, or whatever you run). Try at own risk. As of right now I would ONLY recommend it on the two output caps until further notice because I need to review schematic.
I do fully intend on a buffer line amp, the output of the PD is only 2v. Plus most amplifiers' input is way to low of gain for the 2v tops. I changed mine on my PD amp and had way better results.
Interesting.
But.
Did you try yourself connecting to ground cans of the 2 output capacitors on the PD dac? To wich ground (I mean where)?
Thanks.
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Depending on your personal tastes there are a few things you can do to make the PD Dac fit the bell just as much as the Iss ( I bet)
The noise floor on PD's ideas for power supply drops to black with good AC power filtering, at least with my experience. A Felix would be ok, but a lot more capacitance would be better. The Iss has built in power filtering via battery so of course it has some better characteristics out the box.
Also you can play with the PD by removing certain plastic on certain capacitors, and then grounding the can (my new experiment that has gone very well with a PD amplifier with Blackgates which have isolated cans). That is another discussion perhaps because there are concerns which may or may not be concerns. You can check for voltage but it should all be inducted and have so low of amperage it does not matter how much voltage or how you attach a ground (to star, or whatever you run). Try at own risk. As of right now I would ONLY recommend it on the two output caps until further notice because I need to review schematic.
I do fully intend on a buffer line amp, the output of the PD is only 2v. Plus most amplifiers' input is way to low of gain for the 2v tops. I changed mine on my PD amp and had way better results.
Interesting.
But.
Did you try yourself connecting to ground cans of the 2 output capacitors on the PD dac? To wich ground (I mean where)?
Thanks.
I have not tried it yet on the DAC. Neutral ground, system ground, not earth.
I might try just wrapping the type N caps feeding the electronics and connecting to ground, it might be enough for the power ones, and then removing the jacket on the output ones and then grounding. I will play with all possibilities till I find my favorite sound.
Also I think a lot of DAC opinions are subjective. I think often people are looking for the right kind of coloration and fray away from neutral things. Just to put some perspective on opinions where I would not vouch that any DAC at any price is really that much better that the PD NOS DAC. Look at the components, there are only a few options in the world for improvement.
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what is the reason for going with an ASYNC mode dac (such as wavelength), and i assume the audio sector is not async?
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The AudioSector is not async. The reason to go with async is to reduce/remove jitter.
Here is the Head-Fi discussion of this topic in 2007.
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/async-mode-breakthrough-usb-dacs-271356/
From other postings over the last few months, the sentiment was that async mode made many Windows based machines sound better and there was not a dramatic improvement for Macs.
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okay i see. so i guess i should buy a mac mini into the audio sector and not worry then of async. i guess there is no way to make the audio sector async, correct? (excuse my ignorance on the topic)
thanks wilsynet.
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Your mileage may very of course. Nope, no way to make the AudioSector async.
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just picked one up from the man himself. he lives very close by so i met with him. looking forward to trying it out.
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That is excellent. Be sure to let us all know what you think!
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okay, since its been running for a few days now, i would like to make some comments on its performance. first off, its a very minimalist approach which is good (and bad sometimes.) i wish the iec socket was on the same side of the rca/usb inputs as it sits a little odd in my rack, but no biggie. anyways, its performace is excellent for its price point. after changing around some interconnects and pc's in my system, i have come up with a beautiful balance of musicality and detail. all the things mentioned previously about this dac are true. as always, i try before i buy but this one will stay. i have not directly compared it to my paradisea (as it does not have usb only spdif), however when i get my new computer in my rack i will test them out "against" each other. in any case, i am at a point now where i really enjoy my system and this component is worth every penny and then some. having debated a lot of whether to go for the isabellina (which i hear is nothing short of spectacular) and the electrocompaniet ecd-1, i was kinda hoping the audio sector would be the one since its price is so great. happy to say that its gonna stay and i can save a bit of money by not going to the other dacs (at the moment anyways). upgrade fever hits us all at different times and i may at some point in the future opt for the other 2 dacs i was interested in, but as for now, i am reaching a musicality and detail level that i immensely enjoy. btw, this dac has thunderous bass. the paradisea does not have this amount and i am happy i don't need a sub in my setup as that would have been my next purchase. count me in as a really happy customer. great work from peter!!!
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oops, forgot to add. probably the coolest feature (to me anyways) was the lack of driver needed for windows xp. it didn't even register as a new device added, it just worked right outside of itunes. don't ask me how, but peter told me that would be the case and so it was. i am now looking to develop or have peter make me a half decent case for this unit for looks. nothing fancy, but something to close it up from the real world!! :thumb:
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Hi Anthony: I hope you are bypassing XP's kmixer. What does the rest of your system and cables consist of?
You didn't happen to get a chance to listen to Peter's monster speakers with the FAL drivers?
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Hi Anthony: I hope you are bypassing XP's kmixer. What does the rest of your system and cables consist of?
You didn't happen to get a chance to listen to Peter's monster speakers with the FAL drivers?
i actually have my system tuned just perfect right now, and yes :duh: i forgot but i guess i am using the kmixer since i did not disable anything. what should i do to change it (i remember reading some posts here about it being bad, and replacing it with something else) asioii or something?
in regards to cabling, i am using a pair of nordost frey interconnects and kubala emotion pc on the dac and the combo sounds awesome. i have synthesis monoblock tube amps using a pair of elrod signature eps-2s pc's along with an accustic art preamp and black sand silver reference pc. i now have a perfect balance of dynamics and gentleness. i am really happy with its tone. funny you should remind me of the kmixer, i actually just returned a new mac mini i had purchased for my system because i preferred the sound coming out of my dell inspiron laptop using xp. can't explain why as most here seem to prefer using the mac due to its superior sound quality, but not the case for me. i am now looking for a small form factor pc with xp to run itunes.
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oh, and no i didn't listen to those speakers (i assume they are the ribbon ones upstairs), although i heard the ones in his basement office and surprisingly they sounded pretty good for just drivers.
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Bypassing the Kmixer.
1. Get an ASIO driver for Windows.
There is ASIO4ALL, a freeware driver:
http://www.asio4all.com/
Or here is a commercial product:
http://www.usb-audio.com/faq.html
2. Use an ASIO4ALL compatible player like Foobar
http://www.foobar2000.org/
3. Or follow these instructions for combining Foobar and iTunes:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/itunes-foobar-users-audio-quality-guide-246209/
The last link is a good read even if you don't want to do this.
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i now have a perfect balance of dynamics and gentleness. i am really happy with its tone. funny you should remind me of the kmixer, i actually just returned a new mac mini i had purchased for my system because i preferred the sound coming out of my dell inspiron laptop using xp. can't explain why as most here seem to prefer using the mac due to its superior sound quality, but not the case for me. i am now looking for a small form factor pc with xp to run itunes.
Agreed, the AudioSector does have really great tone. I'm glad that you like it. To be honest, considering the very competitively priced Paridisea, I didn't think there would be much of a difference. But I'm super glad that you consider it a strong, significant step in the right direction.
Regarding the Mac Mini, did you turn off the iTunes equalizer, turn off cross fade and sound check? I have found that disabling these things makes a big difference.
Also, you may want to try a laptop as I understand laptops are typically have less AC noise than their desktop counterparts.
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yeah, i did that to the mac. the only difference i could explain would be the use of my dell laptop running off battery, but then i plugged in the wallwart to the laptop and still slightly better. since i don't want to get a laptop for this setup, im now looking at an asus eee box pc tha i think should be perfect for this. hopefully it will sound good and it has an optical output so i can also use my paradisea if i so choose. i can see why though, red wine audio sounds so good. battery power definitely yields much better sonic performance. its a bit of a hassle for me though to go this route, but those who do choose are rewarded with excellent sonics. btw, thanks very much wilsynet, you have helped me tremendously in this topic and your advice has been spot on. i will try the asio4all with foobar just out of curiosity to see how it compares. thanks again.
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hey all im looking for ways to make a nice looking enclosure for this awesome dac. i emailed peter for his oem stuff, but almost the same price as the dac itself so looking for ideas. thanks.
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No suggestion for an enclosure, but I was recently turned onto J River Media Center. Looks like a very promising media player with support for ASIO4ALL. It rips, it plays, it organizes. I don't use a PC on a day to day basis, so this never came up before.
Gordon Rankin has a nice write-up on the Wavelength site on how to best set up Windows, ASIO4ALL, and the J River Media Center:
http://www.usbdacs.com/Windows/Windows.html
If you have an iPod Touch or iPhone, there is also a remote application for J River called RiverMote:
http://melloware.com/products/rivermote/
To me this really seems like a deluxe set up for Windows.
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Just checking in here as the newest member of the audio sector NOS dac fan club. I bought a used spdif version from an AC member recently and after two days, liked it so much I ordered a USB version from Peter, which he said would ship today. The spdif version is the basic, built on a board piece, but I did have a plexiglass cover added to the USB version.
These will most likely be paired with the Wright Sound WLA12A preamp and Wright Sound Mono7 300b monoblocks as the Havana just sounds so good with the Carina -- that extra .6 volts of output seems to make a difference that the Carina appreciates.
One of these days when all is broken in and I've had a chance to listen to the various dacs for a good while, then I'll share my thoughts on the AS vs. the Havana, but suffice it to say, they are both excellent dacs and it really it will come down to personal preference and system synergy -- and of course budget -- seeing that the two AS dacs cost less than the one Havana, not to mention the relatively expensive tube that really made the Havana something very special.
Of course I really miss my Isabellina, but I still have two fine dacs that I can live with for the long haul.
-- Jim
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Congrats, Jim. A great DAC indeed. I found small difference between the USB version and the SPDIF version of the AS DAC. In retrospect, I may have slightly preferred the SPDIF version....but this is memory talking.
This is the DAC that initially lead me to the opinion that one need not spend a bundle on digital these days.
Enjoy!
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I just got one these dacs and am really enjoying it. Mine is just attached to a board and am wondering about cases, I have seen some nice ones in this thread and wondering if someone would be interested in making one for me (paid) or pointing in direction of finding one myself. I was also wondering if anyone had anymore knowledge of the audial dacs? Thanks
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Congrats, Jim. A great DAC indeed. I found small difference between the USB version and the SPDIF version of the AS DAC. In retrospect, I may have slightly preferred the SPDIF version....but this is memory talking.
This is the DAC that initially lead me to the opinion that one need not spend a bundle on digital these days.
Enjoy!
If you would like that perception changed, try changing that Belkin USB cable with something more high end,,, I know of what I speak as the change can be mind blowing depending on what you're willing to spend. :drool:
Cheers,
Robin
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Jim, I'm a very interested party and still waiting to hear your comparisons of the two DACs.
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Congrats, Jim. A great DAC indeed. I found small difference between the USB version and the SPDIF version of the AS DAC. In retrospect, I may have slightly preferred the SPDIF version....but this is memory talking.
This is the DAC that initially lead me to the opinion that one need not spend a bundle on digital these days.
Enjoy!
If you would like that perception changed, try changing that Belkin USB cable with something more high end,,, I know of what I speak as the change can be mind blowing depending on what you're willing to spend. :drool:
Cheers,
Robin
While I don't have this DAC anymore I recently purchased the Locus Design Polestar USB cable am giving it a try. I've only had it for a few days thus far.
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Adamaley,
Had a little problem with a dead/defective battery for my Acer laptop and am waiting for a replacement before I do anymore USB dac comparisons, but I'm expecting that early next week. So far though, the Havana is a bit more harmonically rich, but that's a silly thing to say as the Havana has a couple hundred hours on it and the Audio Sector, not even an hour at this point. I'v also been without my amp for the system the havana is in, and that too should be here early next week.
I haven't forgot about this, just that these things take time. If you want a quick answer, I like listening to the Havana a bit better as it seems to do everything the AS dac does, but a bit better at a few things, and it has that tube flavoring that I like. Both are very, very good and it will really be a matter of taste and system synergy, but right now I think the Havana has a bit more bottome end control, a slightly more airy top end, and has more of that "analog ease" to it's presentation where the AS is slightly harder.
Thanks,
Jim