AudioCircle

Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Lab => Topic started by: anthony a. on 16 Mar 2009, 03:02 am

Title: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 16 Mar 2009, 03:02 am
i recently went the pc route with usb dac running itunes.  i am totally happy with my system's sound, but would like a further reduction in background noise.  since the pc uses a switching power supply, it has an ever so slight hiss through the speakers only noticeable a few inches away.  nonetheless, i would like to point out that i have tube monoblocks plugged straight into the wall on their own dedicated circuit plugged into hubbell 8300 hospital grade receptacles.  my entire front end (including pc) is plugged into a bluc circle balanced power transformer.  background noise is quite quiet, but recently i've been thinking if i should mod the pc switching power supply to incorprate felixes at with the ac input or dc output (or both).  i am looking for input if this will make any difference to the background noise since everything is already plugged into a balanced power transformer on its own dedicated circuit.  also thinking of something on the amp side.  any input/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  thanks.
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: BobM on 16 Mar 2009, 12:43 pm
In my opinion, any kind of digital device will benefit from cascading power conditioning. Certainly a Felix is a good idea, because it conditions and also isolate the digital device from the rest of the AC circuit to a degree. You could also add chokes (aka Jon Risch's design) and a Felicia as well. They are both cheap enough and if they don't work in one place they could work in another.

Bob
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: BradJudy on 16 Mar 2009, 01:03 pm
I think a dedicated 5VDC power supply for the USB DAC could be the best approach, but it might require modification of your USB DAC (or choosing a different USB DAC).  There are several DIY power supply options as well as pre-built options (look for SqueezeBox power supplies, which are also 5VDC).
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: mcgsxr on 16 Mar 2009, 02:51 pm
I use a linear PS for my SB3 (a Bolder PS, and a Bolder modded SB3), and I also use a Felicia.

Having tried it, there is no going back for this cowboy!  My 96Db speakers will hiss with anything, and it is dead quiet as long as the tubes are not old.

Worth exploring for sure.
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 16 Mar 2009, 05:22 pm
hey thanks for the replies.  prior to looking into the felix, i had contacted several sources in making a linear power supply for my pc.  due to its high amp rating, no one was able to build anything for me that wouldn't have been the size of my amp (believe it or not).  so after i shot down that idea, i tried several different brand switching supplies for the pc and found one that was quiet in my setup.  now that i did that, im looking to further reduce its noise by either chokes or the felix.  if the felix works out, i would like to have it built into an enclisure with the switching ps to make it nice and neat.  only problem is that im not a diyer when it comes to electronics so i'll have to find someone who would be willing to build it for me.  any suggestions?
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: kyrill on 19 Mar 2009, 11:02 pm
yr tube mono blocs will also benefit from Felix if you keep the DC resistance of the coils under o,1 ohm
 the difference with or -out felix is not subtle
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 20 Mar 2009, 05:13 pm
hi kyrill, thanks for the reply.  i am a total noob for electronic stuff.  below are the specs for my monoblock amps.  if you can tell me if the felix will work, as well as any further info i would appreciate.  btw, i will have someone build it for me. 

sensitivity: 1 volt
input impedance: 100 kohm
output impedance: 8 ohm
frequency response: 20hz to 20 khz
power output:  80 watts into 8 ohm
configuration: pentode
tubes: 2 x 12au7, 4 x el34 (per amp)

my speakers are 4 ohm.
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: kyrill on 20 Mar 2009, 05:31 pm
Hi Anthony

this is what i ordered for the Felix for the tube power amps
The capacitors are as described for Felix. These are the coils.
i had first .3 ohm coils but i could easily hear they robbed a bit my tube amp's ( Jadis Da-5, Orchestra)
 liveliness. They sounded too polite
These I ordered  at Newark and could not discern a disadvantage but much cleaner sound
Newark part number: 63K4086   BOURNS JW MILLER
8118-RC       $11.87 $12.08   Each
http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=63K4086
(http://www.newark.com/productimages/nio/standard/4463258.jpg)
resistance 0.032 ohms
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 20 Mar 2009, 05:51 pm
okay great.  im gonna order a pair then.  i actually just bought (from another ac member) a few of the felix pcb boards to mount everything on.  i assume these fit on the pcb no problem?  also, i see these chokes provide just under 10a load and your amps output 40 watts.  i know it should be sufficient, but since mine are double the power, do you think the chokes load is more than enough headroom for me?  and, which caps did you find to be the best for this type of application? 
 
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: kyrill on 20 Mar 2009, 05:55 pm
hi

yes they fit perfectly on the boards

the wattage of the 9 Ampere multiply it with 115V !!
SO if your amps stays under 1000 watts, no problem ;)
I used the caps as described in the forum
but if i was a bit richer i would have choosen for the Auricaps same values
take >200V even if the wall current is 115. but just to be sure in excess conditions.

however Auricaps are not officially registered to be line level caps
Famous line conditioner brand(s) use them though
they do sound better, (much) more musical
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: yammy1688 on 20 Mar 2009, 06:03 pm
Has anyone ever tried Auricaps in the Felix?  I think I'm going to give it a shot.

hi

yes they fit perfectly on the boards

the wattage of the 9 Ampere multiply it with 115V !!
SO if your amps stays under 1000 watts, no problem ;)
I used the caps as described in the forum
but if i was a bit richer i would have choosen for the Auricaps same values
take >200V even if the wall current is 115. but just to be sure in excess conditions.

however Auricaps are not officially registered to be line level caps
Famous line conditioner brand(s) use them though
they do sound better, (much) more musical
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: JoshK on 20 Mar 2009, 06:04 pm
Has anyone ever tried Auricaps in the Felix?  I think I'm going to give it a shot.

Yes I have.  They are however not X rated, so do so at your own risk.  I liked plain vanilla Jantzens better though and they are cheaper.  Also not x rated.
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 20 Mar 2009, 06:13 pm
excellent.  we have liftoff!! :drool:

sorry for being so dense, but i see from the felix thread that most chose the vishay/bc mkp 338 combo over the vishay/roederstein.  any reason why and how much do the auricaps go for? 

and finally, can i use the same chokes from above to power my pc wallwart which has an input: 100v-240v --- 1.5A (50-60 Hz)
and output: 19v --- 3.42A?  or would it be better to get one at a 5a rating?


Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: kyrill on 20 Mar 2009, 06:21 pm
Felix is usually placed on the input side of the power supply
So yr PC need 1,5 A

DOnt take the same coils as for the power amps. Take the original Coilcraft high mH coils for the PC or the highest mH (value)  Miller you can find. They all encompass the 1.5A the pc needs
The digital PWS from the PC is a real garbage generator
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: kyrill on 20 Mar 2009, 06:24 pm
Josh

can you link me to a post of yr OB speaker adventures?
Do you have made yr mind up how to construct your OB setup?
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: yammy1688 on 20 Mar 2009, 06:27 pm
Would you care to elaborate on how you felt the Jantzens bettered the Auricaps?

Has anyone ever tried Auricaps in the Felix?  I think I'm going to give it a shot.

Yes I have.  They are however not X rated, so do so at your own risk.  I liked plain vanilla Jantzens better though and they are cheaper.  Also not x rated.

Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: JoshK on 20 Mar 2009, 06:37 pm
Would you care to elaborate on how you felt the Jantzens bettered the Auricaps?

Has anyone ever tried Auricaps in the Felix?  I think I'm going to give it a shot.

Yes I have.  They are however not X rated, so do so at your own risk.  I liked plain vanilla Jantzens better though and they are cheaper.  Also not x rated.


Been too long since I evaluated caps in this role.  Occam and Larry did a whole lot more than I.  I just was tee'ing off their results. 

Note that this was mostly in the experimental phase.  To leave non x-rated caps in this position long term presents a significant risk that you should not dismiss. 

Let's say your house burns down.  Let's say it wasn't cause by your diy project but somehow the insurance investigator learn of your diy project with non-rated caps.  There is a chance you wouldn't get your claim honored. 
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: JoshK on 20 Mar 2009, 06:42 pm
Josh

can you link me to a post of yr OB speaker adventures?
Do you have made yr mind up how to construct your OB setup?

Look at the "what are you currently working on" thread.  I basically scrapped the OB idea for now.  I am concerned that my room is just not congruent enough and instead am making an Abbey clone instead. 
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 21 Mar 2009, 01:36 am
before i place an order, i would like some more info on the miller chokes to be used for my amps.  kyrill has suggested to use the miller 8118.  i read in a thread that occam uses 8120 for his amps and these were also used at rmaf.  miller has 8118, 8119, 8120 and 8121.  since i will be using pcb boards (from group buy), they are speced at 10a max for their wire traces.  obviously my amps won't exceed that, but i would like to use the 8120 or 8121 to be sure i won't be limiting dynamics in any way.  would it be suggested to scrap the pcb boards for my amp felixes and go point to point or can i use they 8120 on the pcb's no problem and not worry about the 10a max traces. 
in terms of the caps, i guess i could go for the standard vishay/bc mkp 338 x1 combo, but i really would like the best sounding ones i can get.  if the felix is installed with a fuse (which i assume most do), will the auricaps be safe in a catastrophic event?  i mean realistically, forget about liabilty/insurance, im just strictly speaking about safety.  (reason i ask is because i was going to get a rsa duke for my amps which essentially uses all auricaps anyways). 

Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: JoshK on 21 Mar 2009, 02:18 am
I don't wish to comment on the Auricap.

As far as CMCs go, get the biggest rating (amps) for your amps and the smallest for your source (which means the biggest inductance).

Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: kyrill on 21 Mar 2009, 09:51 am
hi Anthony

I thought about the 20 and 21 too but their inductance become 1/3 to1/7 of the 18. which is a lot.
o.o32 ohms is already really really low. It is like a powercable of 2-3 mtrs long incl contact resistance
The less inductance the less filtering
The pcb is fine for amps. I would take point to point when you come close to 7 A. That is not yr amp

Josh cannot advise you to go against regulations as he has a public responsibility

but the auricap is used in high voltage ( much higher than line) in power tube amps and in line conditioners ( the real expensive high end ones) :wink:
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: mgalusha on 21 Mar 2009, 01:36 pm
Warning, preachy safety post...

Even if the caps are rated for the voltage they can and do fail. I recently had a non X rated polypropylene film cap fail in a power supply and it took a very expensive R core transformer with it. When the cap failed it shorted across the transformer secondary. Of course the fuse blew but not in time to save the transformer.

All my Felix filters have X rated caps. They may sound a little better with a boutique cap but I've experienced first hand what the failure can do. The thought of a cap failing in a dead short across the line is very uncomfortable for me. IMO it's just not worth the risk.

</warningOff> :)
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: JoshK on 21 Mar 2009, 03:30 pm
Josh cannot advise you to go against regulations as he has a public responsibility

but the auricap is used in high voltage ( much higher than line) in power tube amps and in line conditioners ( the real expensive high end ones) :wink:

As Mike explained, it isn't the voltage that is the problem, it is the failure mode.  When non-x-rated caps fail, they are not gauranteed to fail open like an X-rated cap.  If they fail short damage can occur.  Worse, what if they fail semi-short?  Then they create a leakage current, maybe not enough to trip the breaker but enough to cause a fire. 

I should have not even mentioned my experiments.   :duh:  The difference between a Felix with boutique caps versus Felix with x-rated caps was small.  The difference between a Felix and no Felix is not small. 

Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: kyrill on 21 Mar 2009, 03:52 pm
i agree Josh
but there is a but?

Is there one story already found on the internet describing a failed high end audio cap in this position causing fire?

sonicraft dare to sell metal film boutique caps as they say they will open this is there response to what i mailed them
"Caps rated as X1(440vac?), X2(240vac) are specified (and listed) are 'guaranteed'/certified to fail either totally open, taking it out of the circuit, or totally shorted, which would trip a breaker. Because they can fail shorted, they are used across the line, from hot to neutral. These are used to address differential/normal mode noise.

Caps rated as Y1,Y2 are specified .... to fail totally open. This means they may used also from Hot/Neutral to safety ground as they will not nominally put mains voltage to a grounded chassis, even if they fail because they will (hopefully) only fail open. These are used to address common mode noise.

Indeed, the characteristics (frequency vs impedance, etc...) of the cap(s) can be subjectively perceived (I will inevitably  rue this statement). Personally, I only use 'rated' caps for mains use, and think the proper combinations can meet my needs.

Mains X & Y will come in ceramic (inexpensive and mediocre performance) and metalized film (Mylar or Polypropylene) or metalized paper. I've not found foil caps certified for these uses, I assume because they lack the self healing characteristics of metalized caps.   Occam"


Kyrill,

It is common knowledge that film and foil tend to fail shorted unless
considerable current is involved.  Metalized tend to arc clear.  I tend
to think of them as self-diminishing rather than self-healing.  None of
the caps we carry are certified for use in high voltage AC applications.
 However, that does not mean they can not be successfully used.  Again,
what is the voltage present in your application?

I would only recommend metalized caps for this application.  On a
budget, you could use the 600VDC Sonicap G1.  The Cardas cap would be a
top contender being metalized with a duplex-ed polypropylene/teflon
composite.

Remember that DC voltage ratings need to be multiplied by 0.7 for AC
voltage.  Then I would add a safety factor of at least 1.5 due to
spikes.  A spike will typically be trapped by the cap.  Due the little
or no isolation or regulation, your AC can present very high amplitude
spikes.  Yourself and your neighbor will have all kinds of different
power-factor/reactive loads connected in parallel to the circuit.
Translation: All kinds of noisy spike making appliances.

BTW, shunting noise to ground should only be done as a last resort.
Further, the results will depend on ones ground integrity and layout.
For many, it could create as many problems as it solves.

and last from http://didnt.doit.wisc.edu/audio/CDP/cdp.html
n April 2004, I learned about a tweak that allegedly could make some cheap DVD and CD players sound much better: putting two 0.47UF 600V Auricaps across the hot/neutral wires in the power input of the player is supposed to filter all sorts of crud out of the power. Auricaps are pretty expensive, so I tried it first with similar A/C power rated caps, but that didn't do anything noticeable. Since I was building a DAC that needed 0.47uF caps in the output stage, I decided to order some and if the tweak with the AC didn't work out, I would have use for the caps. Well, so I put them in (behind the fuse, so they don't fail and catch fire while the unit is unattended*), powered up and sat back to listen. It took a while before I was able to lift my jaw off the floor... AMAZING detail, sound stage definition up a full level of magnitude. Everything in the transport and built-in DAC must be working much better with clean power, as the amount of detail now coming from that player is simply amazing. One of the most effective tweaks, and very simple to install if you know what you're doing.
* i dont think this is a just faith (Kyrill)

THIS STILL MEANS THAT JOSH and  MGALUSHA ARE RIGHT
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 21 Mar 2009, 06:14 pm
hi Anthony

I thought about the 20 and 21 too but their inductance become 1/3 to1/7 of the 18. which is a lot.
The less inductance the less filtering


okay, so the inductance of the 8118 is 7.3mh and dc resistance is 0.032ohm, whereas the 8120 has an inductance of 2.4mh and resistance of 0.008ohm.  if i am understanding you correctly, then the 8118 has 3 times the inductance and dc resistance of the 8120, which translates into more filtering with the 8118.  if that is correct, then perhaps the only reason some find the 8120 better on amps is due to less filtering and hence less dynamic constraint.  would you say my understanding is correct?

ps.  once i have decided on which choke to use, i can start deciding on caps.
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: kyrill on 21 Mar 2009, 07:13 pm
if that is correct, then perhaps the only reason some find the 8120 better on amps is due to less filtering and hence less dynamic constraint.

yes you understanding is correct BUT less dynamic constraint between 0.032 and 0.00x for my ears is non existent. I mean between 0.032  and no Felix BUT only in the dynamic constraint.
but with the Feix so much sweeter transparency

And then
1) buy the o.o32 coil
if you hear a difference between no Felix and Felix in the dynamic constraint
2)  buy the other Miller :)
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 21 Mar 2009, 11:58 pm
okay yeah i guess im just gonna buy a pair of each and try them out.  in the end, i'll end up being out like $25 so no biggie.  okay, so now that the chokes are in place, its time to talk caps.  what is the best x2 or x1 cap i can use?   
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: kyrill on 22 Mar 2009, 10:27 am
Those are the ones suggested in the original felix threads, see group buy  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=51941.0
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 22 Mar 2009, 05:46 pm
thanks kyrill.  yeah i seen those ones.  they are as follows:
- Vishay/BC MKP 338 X1 set of two 1.0 uF, two 0.1 uF and two 0.01 uF

just getting ready to place the order on digi-key right now.  in terms of fuses, did everyone put a fuse on each felix or are they not needed?  if they are needed, which ones are recommended?
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: drmike on 22 Mar 2009, 06:58 pm
hello,where can i get a good case for a single felix?
thanks,
drmike
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: mjosef on 22 Mar 2009, 07:25 pm
RadioShak has the 'almost perfect' size black plastic box for a Felix built on the AC Group buy PCB.

(http://rsk.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pRS1C-2160190w345.jpg)
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062282 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062282)
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: kyrill on 22 Mar 2009, 07:53 pm
thx Mjosef
i have 3 of my Felixes like this ( all over the house)


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=18874)

or
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=18875)
unless the ones build in a former line conditioner
2 separate outlets for power amps Miller coils RC 8118
2x2 outlets for non power devices high inductance Coilcraft P3717-A
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: mjosef on 23 Mar 2009, 02:40 am
Here you go Kyrill, your Felix will look much better in the aforementioned RS box

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=18907)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=18913)
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 23 Mar 2009, 05:07 am
looking good.  i have a really great idea for my amp box, i hope it ends up working out.  the rs box seems perfect size for my needs.
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: daz_bike on 23 Mar 2009, 08:30 pm
Hi,

I hope someone can help me select the right size Mills CMC's for the following equipment.  I use 230V/60Hz electricity.

Source:  250 Watts
Amps:  1300Watts (peak)
Plasma:  555 Watts

Thanks


Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 26 Mar 2009, 07:10 pm
just as an update, i received my order from digikey today and looking forward to putting these together.  btw, i ordered the 1.0 vishay/bc caps as stated, but they are grey in color like the smaller caps.  i noticed the ones from the group buy are blue in color.  did they change the color recently?  just want to be sure since i don't want to use the wrong part.  from digikey, this is the link.  can someone confirm these are the right ones.  thanks.

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=BC1576-ND
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: BradJudy on 26 Mar 2009, 07:42 pm
Those appear to be the correct ones (MKP 338 series X1 1.0uF).  I don't know anything about the color change since I haven't ordered any sine the group buy. 
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: drmike on 27 Mar 2009, 02:52 pm
do you use a fuse with the rs box?
thanks,
drmike
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: mjosef on 27 Mar 2009, 09:00 pm
I don't use any fuse on any of my Felix(a 20Amper on a 15A.fuse), those built for my own use.
 
With the RS box it is easy to drill a hole for a fuse-holder.

Edit: Actually, I ment I didn't install a fuse on my 20A Felix since my fuse box has a 15A fuse(no breaker panel in my apt).  :nono:
I always fuse the 3A, 5A and 10A. Felix. Yeah, I'm FUSED.   :idea:
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 30 Mar 2009, 02:50 pm
I don't use any fuse on any of my Felix, those built for my own use. Only if I build it for someone else.

is the general consensus that a fuse in a circuit generally degrades sonics (however minute that may be)?
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: JoshK on 30 Mar 2009, 02:53 pm
I don't use any fuse on any of my Felix, those built for my own use. Only if I build it for someone else.
With the RS box it is easy to drill a hole for a fuse-holder.

Yes you do, you always you a fuse, don't you?  :wink:
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: mjosef on 31 Mar 2009, 04:29 am
Yeah, actually I do, got fuses on all my components...I sometimes even under-fuse (reduce the amp-rating) for added safety.  :thumb:
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 1 Apr 2009, 02:09 pm
hey im ready to start soldering but its been a very long time since i took electronics class.  :duh:

just want to make sure that the coils and caps are NOT polarized and can be placed in any orientation on the pcb (as long as it fits) :lol:

also, i remeber someone mentioning in another thread that the lettering of the caps should all face the same direction.  is that really so or can i have them facing each other?  sorry for the dumb questions, i just don't want to have to re-solder.  thanks.
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: Occam on 1 Apr 2009, 02:50 pm
Anthony,

My recommendation to align all the caps consistently was based on personal experience from listening sessions with Tianguis (Larry) and myself, a few years ago. It was hardly a controlled experiment, and my recommendation should be taken as ancectdotal, at best. The effect seemed to be a more 'cohesive' presentation, but I wouldn't dispute the possibility of a purely placebo cause.

Then again, while it might not help, it shouldn't hurt.....

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: JoshK on 1 Apr 2009, 04:13 pm
This is an interesting question, which I find strange but fascinating at the same time.  I've read a tiny bit about this issue (from a pratical perspective, not theory) recently.  Apparently, assuming we are using unbalanced domestic mains, orienting the outer shield of the cap to neutral can has some beneficial effects.  It supposedly minimizes hum pickup by reducing some of the parasitic effects.

Now the problem is trying to determine which end is connected to the outer shield of the cap.  Some caps like Auricap mark this for you by making the leads black and red (I think the black is the outer shield and red goes to "hot").  Best to confirm from someone in the know, which excludes me.

Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: kyrill on 1 Apr 2009, 05:33 pm
black is shield
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 1 Apr 2009, 07:45 pm
Now the problem is trying to determine which end is connected to the outer shield of the cap.  Some caps like Auricap mark this for you by making the leads black and red (I think the black is the outer shield and red goes to "hot").

agreed, some mark + and - but these vishays have no such marks.  so basically am i safe to connect the caps all one way, with the lettering on each cap facing to the right?  and coils (both coilcraft and miller) also can be installed either way on the board?
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: kyrill on 1 Apr 2009, 08:35 pm
Anth

i really think it does not matter practically in the case of the Vishays
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 2 Apr 2009, 06:20 pm
thanks kyrill.  i took occams advice and wired them all the same way (guess it can't hurt right), and am now complete soldering the parts on the pcb's.  only thing left to do now is wire up the iec's and off i go.  i just wanted to make sure that i can wire the iec on either side of the pcb board (both sides have a live and neutral).  am i correct that this circuit is non-directional and it will filter in and out in either direction?

and, what should i do in terms of the ground?  this is for my amps plugged directly in the wall.  i don't want to defeat the ground just to have the filter.  can anyone chime in?
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: yammy1688 on 2 Apr 2009, 07:03 pm
You connect the ground wire directly to the ground terminals on the wall receptacles. 
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: kyrill on 2 Apr 2009, 07:06 pm
thanks kyrill.  i took occams advice and wired them all the same way (guess it can't hurt right), and am now complete soldering the parts on the pcb's.  only thing left to do now is wire up the iec's and off i go.  i just wanted to make sure that i can wire the iec on either side of the pcb board (both sides have a live and neutral).  am i correct that this circuit is non-directional and it will filter in and out in either direction? YES

and, what should i do in terms of the ground?  this is for my amps plugged directly in the wall.  i don't want to defeat the ground just to have the filter.  can anyone chime in?  ground wire is parallel to the the pcb, + yammies advice

Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 2 Apr 2009, 07:16 pm
okay, here is a picture of the completed board.  im not using receptacles, so i assume i should just add a jumper wire from the female iec to male iec as shown here, correct?
(http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr72/anthony_arci/Felix/ampfelix.jpg)
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: TomW16 on 2 Apr 2009, 07:53 pm
I noticed in your picture that the white wire is in the H (hot) hole and the black wire is in the N (neutral) hole.  Generally the black wire is hot and the white wire is neutral (at least in the US & Canada for 110V service; I can't comment on other countries).  It won't make any difference to the Felix function as others have stated. 

I like the pigtail approach to the board, which will aid in easy removal and service if necessary.

Tom
 
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 2 Apr 2009, 07:56 pm
I noticed in your picture that the white wire is in the H (hot) hole and the black wire is in the N (neutral) hole.  Generally the black wire is hot and the white wire is neutral (at least in the US & Canada for 110V service; I can't comment on other countries).  It won't make any difference to the Felix function as others have stated.

you are right tom.  since i am using the 9.3a miller coil this is actually a "prototype" run of the amp felix and i will be changing wires and bigger coil in my comparisons.  i chose black as the neutral and will replace the white with a red cable which will eventually be hot.

so assuming everything is wired correctly, how can i test this circuit without plugging it into the wall and find out somethings fried.  is there any way using a multimeter (just want to make sure i didn't fry any of the caps when soldering).  sorry for the noob question, it has been years since i took electronics class and my multimeter is full of dust.  thanks.
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 4 Apr 2009, 10:04 pm
anyone?
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: JoshK on 4 Apr 2009, 10:05 pm
The best way would be to use a variac and test it at a lowered voltage and then bring the voltage up once its been sanity check.  Use your DMM to measure the voltages and note polarity.

Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 5 Apr 2009, 02:56 pm
The best way would be to use a variac and test it at a lowered voltage and then bring the voltage up once its been sanity check.  Use your DMM to measure the voltages and note polarity.



I agree wholeheartedly with Josh. A variac is an indispensible tool for the DIY'er. You can purchase them on Ebay or buy them fully built or build your own using variable transformers sold by Staco Energy Corp in Dayton Ohio. For the DIY version, you'll need to stick it in a case, AC socket, etc...mine is in a $5 Radioshack case and is great. Try to get one that can take at least a 5A load (on the primary side) which is useful for most projects.

Fully built ones and DIY versions are available through Staco here: http://www.stacoenergy.com/variable_transformers.htm (http://www.stacoenergy.com/variable_transformers.htm)
The DIY versions are labeled as 'Panel Mount' types. Mine is the '500' Series that you see listed.

On second thought, looking at the prices for the fully built Staco units I would DIY or just shop on E-bay! I was lucky and got my 500 Series unit for free! But at least this gives you an idea.

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 7 Apr 2009, 01:34 pm
thanks anand and josh for the tips.  i am far from being an electronic diyer.  i attempted this project because it seemed very straight forward and all it required was the ability to solder.  unfortunately, i don't have a variac so it will be hard for me to test the felixes.  lets say when i was soldering that i applied too much heat to a cap and fried it.  what is the worst that can happen if i plug in the felix to one of my components with a damaged part in the chain?  i mean since this is really only a filter, will the current just pass through it and not damage anything or can it fry my component such as a tube amp? 
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: JoshK on 7 Apr 2009, 01:46 pm
Make sure you have fuses in your Felix.  If you have fuses, then the way to test it without a Variac is to plug it in without any component attached and fuses that are a tiny bit smaller than normal.  If the fuses don't blow, you can measure the voltage on the load side, it they are what you expect ~120vac, then plug it into the component (still with the small fuses).  If the fuses still don't blow and everything seems good, you can replace the small fuses with normal sized fuses.

It is normal practice to put smaller fuses in when testing gear so it blows quickly if there is a fault condition.  For example, if the normal fuse is 2 amp slow blow, make it 1.5 amp fast blow when testing.  You might blow the fuse with switch on in rush of the component, so some judgement is needed to size it.

P.S. I just realized yours doesn't have fuses.  :nono:  I wouldn't test this as is.  Also, the ground is only partially covered.  This is no problem if this were incased with strain reliefs. But as is, the wire could be moved by force and cause a short.  This is somewhat dangerous in its current state.

Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: whubbard on 9 Apr 2009, 02:20 pm
I have a bunch of Felixs without fuses.

One went BOOM! It was fun.
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-violent029.gif)

-West

p.s. I don't think a fuse would have necessarily helped, as I don't think it was caused by to much current, as nothing was plugged in. Never really figured out what happened.
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 10 Apr 2009, 04:04 am
P.S. I just realized yours doesn't have fuses.  :nono:  I wouldn't test this as is.  Also, the ground is only partially covered.  This is no problem if this were incased with strain reliefs. But as is, the wire could be moved by force and cause a short.  This is somewhat dangerous in its current state.

thanks for the info josh.  i debated for a while in regards to fuses or not and ultimately decided against.  i may end up putting them in for safety.  i also realize what you are saying about the ground not fully covered.  the pic shows the "prototype" felix and thus has exposed wiring and no strain reliefs.  im just going to test this out on my amps and see if it improves.  just wondering if it is safe to connect this filter directly to the wall using a power cable and plugging in a light bulb to test if the circuit is functioning.  will this be okay and a simple enough test to ensure the circuit is fine?  and i guess i would leave it plugged in for a few minutes?  please let me know if this is a viable test.  thanks.
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: kyrill on 10 Apr 2009, 07:44 am
that would be a good test for the soldering and the coils :)
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: JoshK on 10 Apr 2009, 05:34 pm
That is an ok test to do.  Paul and I did the same thing back when we built our first Felicia.  The problem though without fuses is if you managed to wire up the cmc wrong, as both Paul and I managed to do independently, you'll trip the breaker but maybe not before taking out a couple parts.  If you put in a small fuse, you'll likely not ruin the parts, just the fuse.  Its your call. 
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: kyrill on 10 Apr 2009, 05:45 pm
with the board it is not possible to wire the cmc wrong, isn't it?
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: JoshK on 10 Apr 2009, 06:04 pm
with the board it is not possible to wire the cmc wrong, isn't it?

Your probably right....I do it all p2p, so its different for me. 
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 11 Apr 2009, 02:47 am
okay great, im gonna try it out that way and see what happens.  btw, a standard light bulb socket only has a hot and neutral, no ground.  is it okay to bypass the ground from the bulb?
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: JoshK on 11 Apr 2009, 03:52 am
yeah, its not needed for the purposes of testing.
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 11 Apr 2009, 05:05 am
great, thanks.  so it turns out that i tried it out on my amps and using the miller 8118 choke, i find it does limit dynamics to a small degree.  i do however love the black background it provides, so i will try out the 8120 and hopefully regain all the dynamics.  i am hoping it achieves what i want, as the felix so far sounds very promising.  one thing i did notice however was that there was an ever so slight buzzing emitting from the felix.  this was only audible if you put your ear within a foot or so, but still audible.  another thing i noticed is that my amps now hum much louder than usual.  when i unplugged the felix it was definitely less.  i guess this is why people use dc blockers?  what can i do to reduce this hum i hear when the felix is connected?  thanks.
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: BradJudy on 11 Apr 2009, 01:15 pm
You CANNOT use a larger JW Miller CMC on the PCB.  The traces are not substantial enough to handle more current and I intentionally did not include pads that fit the larger CMC's (so you can't do it on the PCB anyway).  If you want to try an 8120 point-to-point, go ahead, but be safe. 
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 13 Apr 2009, 05:25 am
i know, i will be doing point to point for the 8120 millers.  just as an update, i tried the miller 8118 circuit on all my sources before they are plugged into the balanced power transformer.  as mentioned earlier, i found the felix (on the amps) to offer a beautiful black background but at the minor expense of compressed dymanics.  this held true on the sources as well, but i think i will keep one attahced to the preamp.  althought it compresses just a smidge here (much less than everywhere else), it does offer a more solid and layered presentation which i like.  so my next experiment is to try the coilcraft circuits on the sources and see how they compare to the millers.  in the meantime, i just got a spare ac/dc power adaptor for my pc which i plan on installing 1 or 2 felixes inside.  the adaptor is rated as follows:  ac input - 1.5A................ dc output - 3.42A.  so i have built 2 felixes, one for the input (coilcraft 3717) and one for the output (coilcraft 4007).  below is a picture of the internals.  so here are my questions:

i want to confirm which is the input and output.  (the left plugs into the pc with the barrel type connector, and the right plug attaches to a power cord that goes directly into the ac receptacle).  so input would be the right side (3717 felix attached here with cable plugged into ac outlet) and output would be left side (4007 felix there attached with barrel plug into pc).  is this correct?

(http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr72/anthony_arci/Felix/1.jpg)
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: daz_bike on 13 Apr 2009, 05:51 am
Not good to hear that it impacts that much on dynamics .... esp. considering the dynamics are already heavily compressed with new CD's!  This suggests my held belief that conditioning 'robs' the music to some degree.  Maybe it's a nice change initially but in the long run not so good?
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: Occam on 14 Apr 2009, 04:14 am
Anthony,

Button up the switching supply in its (plastic?) enclosure. You can get at everything you need to via the C7? inlet and dc output cord. Simply build you ac conditioning filter into whatever cord you're using like the photo a couple of pages back of Mjosef's filter/cord. Same for the dc filter, use something like that RadioShack box, put an inlet that accepts the powersupplies output cord's plug. and run cord from the output of the dc filter and terminate with that same plug.

The coils you chose should work quite well. The dc filter should have no input caps, and you don't have to use line rated x2 caps. Anything up to about 10-30uf on the output side should be fine. Make sure the cap's voltage is at least 25% over the switcher's output voltage, and if you use electrolytics, be sure to use the proper polarity.

It looks like your AC inlet is a C7 or C8 IEC, rated at 2.5 amps max. Given your choice of AC Felix coil and its rating of 3amps, you really do have a valid excuse for not fusing it iff you build it into a cord whose output plug is a C7 or C8.

Looking forward to your take on the 8120 based Felix. What exactly are your components?  :roll:

FWIW
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: daz_bike on 14 Apr 2009, 04:56 am
Occam,

Thanks for your reply and taking the time to deduce my post.  You are right that I have Nuforce Ref 9SE V2 amps and I find it interesting your recommendation.  I will follow that through and use the recommended CMC.  My source is a Modwright Transporter and the figure I quoted was of 250 Watts was from Dan Wright. 

What size do you recommend for this component (again 230V land)? 

I will bite my lip until I have built a Felix for these components and then I can hear for myself>  I'll report back to the group.  I love 'humble pie' btw.  Regards
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: Occam on 14 Apr 2009, 05:25 am
daz_bike,

Sorry, I not my usual easy going self. :roll:
I'm a bit stressed with trying to finish my taxes....

-Paul
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 15 Apr 2009, 04:23 am
The dc filter should have no input caps, and you don't have to use line rated x2 caps. Anything up to about 10-30uf on the output side should be fine. Make sure the cap's voltage is at least 25% over the switcher's output voltage, and if you use electrolytics, be sure to use the proper polarity.

paul, are you saying i should NOT use the standard felix board with caps for the output side, or that it is not necessary?  reason i ask is because i have already soldered everything to each board and if it should NOT be done that i will desolder... but if it still would be fine then i'll keep them intact.

i am going to take your advice and just wire everything up using some inlets and power plugs.  i tried making short runs of wire, but it began to be messy so i think i'll just stick with your idea.  i may house them all in a single box for a cleaner look.

p.s. my amps are synthesis the theater monoblocks from italy.  they are rated at 70watts per channel and use a pair of 12au7 input tubes and quad el34 drivers per amp.  i am happy to report that the 8120 millers sound awesome and have no dynamic limits that i can detect.  i will definitely keep them on the amps. 
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: Occam on 16 Apr 2009, 01:37 am
Anthony,


The input AC side, and output DC side filters seem fine, and should work quite well. BradJudy's boards are an excellent way to implement those filters. Its only when you use inductors that don't fit on the boards do you need an alternative.
The advantage of filtering on the DC side is that typically, there is a higher current on the dc than on the ac line, and its higher current draw tends to minimize unwanted peaks in a filter's response.
Because of the higher current, I suggested  a higher capacitance, and because its on the output side, the input caps of the dc filter aren't required to minimize noise coming from the fed component, as the AC input filter addresses that. I suggested different caps as the caps on the dc filter because they are not subjected to high voltage spikes like x2 caps on the ac side filter.

Its good to know the 8120 based filter is working well on your amps, and not suffering from compressed dynamics. I'm curious how a 8120 based filter works on your preamp. Although I assume your amp(s) draw more power than your preamp, this doesn't guarantee that your pre will work as you desire with the filter. It all depends on the specific implementation of the pre's power supply.

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 16 Apr 2009, 03:17 pm
thank you paul for the advice.  i appreciate all the time you and others here have given to help me out on this project.
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 16 Apr 2009, 07:20 pm
in response to your question about the 8120 on the pre, i actually did try it out against the 8118 choke and found them to be too close to call.  my preamp is an accustic arts mk3 solid state unit that draws only a few watts so perhaps that would explain why the 8118 and 8120 sounded the same.  my next experiment is trying out the coilcraft circuit on the preamp and see how that sounds.  same goes for the pc power supply.  i'll keep you all posted with my progress.
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 21 Apr 2009, 03:47 pm
1.) since the power cable is a 2 prong non-polarized cable (with no ground), does it matter which way i wire this into the felix input (hot and neutral)?  i will simply be cutting off the 2 prong connector and soldering the cable directly to the felix.  on the other end of the felix, i would like to put an iec socket, which i realize will have no ground intact, but atleast i can use a better power cable if i need to.

2.) the other end of the ac/dc adaptor has the barrel type connector which shows which is marked + and - on the circuit board.  again, if i cut this cable and solder it directly to the second felix (dc filter), which wire do i attach to the hot and which to the neutral? 

thanks.

Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: mjosef on 21 Apr 2009, 11:05 pm
That plug looks like it polarized, meaning one blade looks wider(wider one being the neutral) than the other, so you should maintain that polarity. And of course it usually essential on the DC side. THe Felix doesn't have a set polarity until you assign it one.
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 22 Apr 2009, 01:19 am
thanks mjosef, the plug is not polarized so i guess its safe to wire it up any way.  same goes for the barrel connector.
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 24 Apr 2009, 04:55 pm
here are some update pics of the amp felixes built and finished.  basically i plug the unit directly into my amp iec, and then my power cord into the felix.  its very simple and no need to cut my expensive power cords or add a receptacle. 


here is an internal shot.  someone critique my soldering job please -- any joint problems spotted??

(http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr72/anthony_arci/Felix/Internal.jpg)


and here is a pic of them side by side all finished up.

(http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr72/anthony_arci/Felix/Ampfelix-1.jpg)
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: mjosef on 24 Apr 2009, 05:09 pm
Looks good, nice case. I would be a little worried with all that naked wire so close to a metal surface. The solid copper rails are probably stiff enough to not flex, but I would still err on the side of safety and place some insulating tape along the case surface near to those exposed areas or above/below the CMC windings.

Good job.
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 24 Apr 2009, 06:21 pm
good idea.  i thought of that as well but the wire is so stiff i can't ever see it moving... although maybe i should be on the precaution side and apply something to the case.  do you think it would be fine if i covered the inside of the enclosure using dynamat?  its self stick on one end and its like a rubber compound (thin like paper).
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: mjosef on 24 Apr 2009, 06:45 pm
Dynamat would work, sounds like overkill, but maybe not so with audiophiles?  :lol:
Much cheaper would be strips of insulating tape(splicing tape which is like a thick rubber tape), but if you already have the dynamat, sure.
Always worth the effort to eliminate even the smallest likelihood of risk with electrical work. Like what if the box fell from your hands to the floor and a solder joint breaks. Or someone accidentally steps on the box...
And I don't see a fuse, any shorting will result in some part burning before opening, or mains breaker tripping. Sorry, just a possible picture of the worst case scenario.

Solder joints look ok from what I can see, have seen worse.  :thumb:
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 24 Apr 2009, 10:59 pm
done and done.  hopefully it will stick for some time to the metal.  also, do you think vent holes are needed for this or should i be fine?
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: mjosef on 25 Apr 2009, 04:56 am
I don't think you would need to vent the case, I have never noticed any heat built up with my Felixs.
Lets see if anyone else has an opinion on this.
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: JoshK on 25 Apr 2009, 06:01 pm
I don't think you would need to vent the case, I have never noticed any heat built up with my Felixs.
Lets see if anyone else has an opinion on this.

I'd agree.  I put my felix in enclosed spaces and haven't noticed any heat.  The only piece that could generate any heat would be the CMC, but its DCR is very low so it isn't dissipating much heat.
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: kyrill on 27 Apr 2009, 07:39 am
looks fine Anthony, functional as it should be.

Now i have to try the 120 too..as you could hear some slight compression
I dont actually understand how 0.032 ohm resistance can do that as the cables in the wall and power chord all adds up much more than that.
Maybe it is the inductance itself that dampens a bit the rise time of the needed surge?
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 28 Apr 2009, 03:36 am
no idea, i did quite a few blind test and every time i knew which one the 8118 was.  it was slight, but noticeable to me.  try out the 8120, it may work out for you better.  for my preamp, i tried both the 8118 and 8120 and found no difference.  it only draws 50 watts sp maybe thats why, whereas the amps are power hungry.
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: kyrill on 28 Apr 2009, 08:26 am
how much power are yr amps? Have you tried higher mH coils for the preamp? I use the Coilcraft P3717-A - 25mH 3A - for my preamp and did notice wonderful dynamics, i shall try today to compare it with the 8118 on the preamp. my preamp has a total of 60 watts max

I wonder if AC voltage plays a role in this domain of dynamics
I live in 230V country so the current amps and pre amps need, are half of the US. Maybe that is the reason  i find the 8118 with natural dynamics?
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: anthony a. on 28 Apr 2009, 10:34 pm
that could be possible as well.  i have tried both the 3717 and 4007 coilcrafts on my pc switching power supply both for ac input and dc output.  both sounded okay and provided a blacker background although they did take away a bit of dynamics from the system.  this is while having the felixes on both amps and with or without it on preamp.  my next attempt is to try out the 8118 miller on the ac input and dc output of my pc ps.  ac input is only 1.5a and dc output is 3.5a, but i think it will be interesting to see how it sounds.   
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: rdsu on 15 Jan 2012, 11:15 pm
kyrill,

Did you tried the 8120 against your 8118 on your amp? What was the results?

My country also use the 240V, and my amplifier/dac (http://www.leema-acoustics.com/shop/component/amplifiers/pulse) have 100k Ohm for input impedance.

Thanks
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: kyrill on 10 Feb 2012, 01:41 pm
Hi Rui
I found only today your PM referring to this post . My excuses

I cannot tell You have to find out for yourself as it is really depending on the makeup of the power section of your amp. The more uF in electrolytic caps the more they act as a battery for extra power when the amp needs it, in that case no immediate demand will be through the Felix. It also depends on the kind of music you play and how loud. Sudden explosions of dynamics who wants immediate extra power, will ask for as less internal resistance (i.r.) of the pws and in the end the i.r. of the coils of the felix. However the more you want felix to clean the AC, the more the coils will have a higher R. and the more it will dampen slightly  those sudden dynamic shifts when the internal electrolytics are "empty". In the end I choose a golden ; midway.
I live in the city with very dirty AC so I sacrificed the tiniest bits of dynamics for a more pure clean sound. You have to buy both the coils and try them out by ear. Good luck
Title: Re: FELIX questions for my setup
Post by: rdsu on 10 Feb 2012, 02:10 pm
Hi kyrill,

Thanks for your help.

I will try 8118 and 8119 or 8120, but I think I will go for 8119 instead of 8120.