Apple and FLAC

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James Tanner

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Apple and FLAC
« on: 15 Sep 2017, 09:33 am »
Hello All,
 
I'm sure most of you have already heard that the rumors have been confirmed - Apple's iOS 11 will support FLAC audio files natively:
 
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/09/confirmed-flac-support-coming-to-the-iphone-sort-of/

GentleBender

Re: Apple and FLAC
« Reply #1 on: 15 Sep 2017, 10:13 am »
So far only for iPhone 7 and newer. So far the iPad Pro doesn't include FLAC in the list of supported file types.

James Tanner

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Re: Apple and FLAC
« Reply #2 on: 15 Sep 2017, 11:49 am »
So far only for iPhone 7 and newer. So far the iPad Pro doesn't include FLAC in the list of supported file types.

Hi

Yes but its a move in the right direction I think.

james

schmidtmike76

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Re: Apple and FLAC
« Reply #3 on: 15 Sep 2017, 12:35 pm »
Did I hear airplay to BDPlayers no no just kidding.  Wish list right

gbaby

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Re: Apple and FLAC
« Reply #4 on: 15 Sep 2017, 01:15 pm »
I thought aiff was a better digital file than flac as aiff is not compressed.  :o

CanadianMaestro

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Re: Apple and FLAC
« Reply #5 on: 15 Sep 2017, 02:01 pm »
I thought aiff was a better digital file than flac as aiff is not compressed.  :o

Flac is not compressed on playback.
On BDA-1, Flac seems easier to "handle" than aiff, and it sounds better imo. ymmv   :green:

zoom25

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Re: Apple and FLAC
« Reply #6 on: 15 Sep 2017, 03:07 pm »
Flac is not compressed on playback.
On BDA-1, Flac seems easier to "handle" than aiff, and it sounds better imo. ymmv   :green:

You mean BDP-1 right? DACs only get PCM.

CanadianMaestro

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Re: Apple and FLAC
« Reply #7 on: 15 Sep 2017, 03:14 pm »
You mean BDP-1 right? DACs only get PCM.

BDP-1

zoom25

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Re: Apple and FLAC
« Reply #8 on: 15 Sep 2017, 03:30 pm »
If you are using Roon and Bryston, then you don't need to care about uncompressed or compressed, as RAAT sends PCM to the BDP-1. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. So now I can switch back over to compressed FLAC. No need to worry about any decoding going on BDP-1.

On MPD, I did do comparisons between ALAC, FLAC, AIFF, FLAC uncompressed, and WAV.

I found ALAC was the worst of them all. Compressed and most CPU intensive. Between WAV and FLAC compressed, I can hear the differences but it might be user driven to see which one you prefer. Most like WAV over FLAC, a few still like FLAC over WAV. I found FLAC to sound tighter and cleaner, whereas WAV was more dynamic and more bass weight or bloom in the lowest octaves. WAV also sounded more open and 3D. Although if you like FLAC, then you can argue that WAV made it less defined with bloated bass. I have no way to know which one sounds more correct and authentic. So stick with whatever sounds better and/or is easier to deal with metadata.

Some find differences between AIFF, WAV, and FLAC uncompressed. I stuck with WAV as it worked with everything and sounded right. I think "audioengr" of Empirical Audio here and a few others who also spent a lot of time over the years found WAV to sound best, even over AIFF and FLAC uncompressed.

Now with Roon, this makes my life a lot easier. I can stick with FLAC and have it converted to PCM before it gets to the network player.

I've done a thread on this before.

gbaby

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Re: Apple and FLAC
« Reply #9 on: 15 Sep 2017, 04:44 pm »
I can stick with FLAC and have it converted to PCM before it gets to the network player.

I've done a thread on this before.

This makes no sense to me.  :o You cannot make a compressed file like Flac become an uncompressed PCM file.

Johnny2Bad

Re: Apple and FLAC
« Reply #10 on: 15 Sep 2017, 04:52 pm »
Audio Interchange File Format (AIFF) is just raw PCM ... the same as the data on a CD. It's the original cross-platform open source audio format. It is not, and never was, an "Apple" format, save for the fact that Apple OS/Mac OS machines supported it.

Microsoft introduced WAV as an incompatible (proprietary) format that also is just raw PCM, but with certain file format information altered from AIFF, in order to make a "Windows" format. AIFF was supported by all other operating systems (UNIX, Sun SPARC, SGI, Apple ][, Macintosh, IBM OS2, various flavours of DOS, Amiga ... etc) at the time Microsoft introduced WAV.

If you open a CD on a Windows machine, the files are listed as WAV files. If you open it on any other OS, the files are listed as AIFF.

FLAC is just compressed PCM. It's a relatively new format; others like Shorten existed previously and did essentially the same thing. Apple Lossless Audio Codec (ALAC) is another implementation. In all cases, when uncompressed, the raw PCM is output.

This makes no sense to me.  :o You cannot make a compressed file like Flac become an uncompressed PCM file.

FLAC, Shorten, ALAC, etc use similar compression techniques as zip or rar, but optimized for audio files. No data is "thrown out" as in a lossy compressed format (mp3, aac, etc) so the original, uncompressed audio data can always be recovered.[* See Footnote].

You might be putting too much emphasis on "compressed" as meaning one thing only; in reality lossless compression and lossy compression work in completely different ways; in this case, it means two different things (two unique methods) that have similar results (smaller file sizes) on one aspect but different results in another (recreation of the original data, or not).

RedBook CD, again containing PCM, is again different, in that a CD employs various techniques to employ error correction. The PCM on a CD is redundantly written to multiple areas of the disk to allow for small errors to be recovered in a seamless fashion. Large errors that exceed the error correction ability can create dropouts. So there is a difference between playing a CD and playing a computer file, with the former being more robust as far as data integrity goes. iTunes (and most others) allow you to play or rip CDs with RedBook error correction enabled or defeated.

Differences in playback between various file formats might be attributed to the need to use CPU cycles to process data. Aside from the obvious (running a playback or processing application) anything connected via the USB bus requires CPU cycles to function. Most modern computers use the USB bus to connect internal optical disk drives.

Interfaces like FireWire do not require any CPU cycles to function ... you can connect two FireWire devices with no computer in between and they still operate as normal (for example you can transfer data from one device to the other). That is impossible with USB.

Other causes could be hardware or jitter issues. Note the following samples captured on a 100GHz Oscilloscope:




The yellow horizontal line is the zero-crossing point. Note how a bit in the oval is supposed to be a "zero" but due to jitter remains a "1" as it doesn't go far enough past the zero crossing point to be recognized as the correct bit.



Similar to the first image, but with three errors highlighted due to jitter.

__________

* Although this is a simplification, it illustrates how lossless compression, like Shorten, FLAC or ALAC works (and how zip or rar works as well). Let's say you have a data stream thusly:

0111011000001

This can be described as (in a digital form):
zero one one one zero one one zero zero zero zero zero one

And can be re-written as (in a digital form):
a zero, three ones, a zero, two ones, five zeros, a one.

To describe the second example above, it takes fewer digital instructions than it takes to write the original data, resulting in a more compact (compressed) file size, and the original data can always be re-constructed, without loss, from the compressed variant.
« Last Edit: 15 Sep 2017, 06:21 pm by Johnny2Bad »

zoom25

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Re: Apple and FLAC
« Reply #11 on: 15 Sep 2017, 05:06 pm »
This makes no sense to me.  :o You cannot make a compressed file like Flac become an uncompressed PCM file.

AIFF, ALAC, WAV, and FLAC all contain the same data. ALAC and FLAC are just compressed but still lossless. If you want you can call it compressed lossless. Nothing's thrown out, hence the term lossless. It's only compressed. AIFF and WAV are uncompressed lossless. All 4 are lossless. Their audio data is exact. Zero differences.

Your DAC doesn't see FLAC or AIFF, it sees PCM.

Whether it's Roon core or MPD, they'll both process the 4 formats to PCM which is then sent out to your DAC.

There has never been an argument about whether their data is the same or not. It is! No debates about that.

The debate (for a select few) has only been about whether the decoding process can alter the sound by adding more electrical noise or a particular pattern of noise. I've seen some on Naim forums claim about noise patterns due to the use of big vs little endianness. With Roon, it's sending out PCM to the BDP-1 regardless of whether you are feeding Roon WAV or FLAC.

You should read about CPU vs. I/O next: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/WAV-FLAC.htm

James Tanner

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Re: Apple and FLAC
« Reply #12 on: 15 Sep 2017, 06:07 pm »
Audio Interchange File Format (AIFF) is just raw PCM ... the same as the data on a CD. It's the original cross-platform open source audio format. It is not, and never was, an "Apple" format, save for the fact that Apple OS/Mac OS machines supported it.

Microsoft introduced WAV as an incompatible (proprietary) format that also is just raw PCM, but with certain file format information altered from AIFF, in order to make a "Windows" format. AIFF was supported by all other operating systems (UNIX, Sun SPARC, SGI, Apple ][, Macintosh, IBM OS2, various flavours of DOS, Amiga ... etc) at the time Microsoft introduced WAV.

If you open a CD on a Windows machine, the files are listed as WAV files. If you open it on any other OS, the files are listed as AIFF.

FLAC is just compressed PCM. It's a relatively new format; others like Shorten existed previously and did essentially the same thing. Apple Lossless Audio Codec (ALAC) is another implementation. In all cases, when uncompressed, the raw PCM is output.

FLAC, Shorten, ALAC, etc use similar compression techniques as zip or rar, but optimized for audio files. No data is "thrown out" as in a lossy compressed format (mp3, aac, etc) so the original, uncompressed audio data can always be recovered.*

RedBook CD, again containing PCM, is again different, in that a CD employs various techniques to employ error correction. The PCM on a CD is redundantly written to multiple areas of the disk to allow for small errors to be recovered in a seamless fashion. Large errors that exceed the error correction ability can create dropouts. So there is a difference between playing a CD and playing a computer file, with the former being more robust as far as data integrity goes. iTunes (and most others) allow you to play or rip CDs with RedBook error correction enabled or defeated.

Differences in playback between various file formats might be attributed to the need to use CPU cycles to process data. Aside from the obvious (running a playback or processing application) anything connected via the USB bus requires CPU cycles to function. Most modern computers use the USB bus to connect internal optical disk drives.

Interfaces like FireWire do not require any CPU cycles to function ... you can connect two FireWire devices with no computer in between and they still operate as normal (for example you can transfer data from one device to the other). That is impossible with USB.

Other causes could be hardware or jitter issues. Note the following samples captured on a 100GHz Oscilloscope:




The yellow horizontal line is the zero-crossing point. Note how a bit in the oval is supposed to be a "zero" but due to jitter remains a "1" as it doesn't go far enough past the zero crossing point to be recognized as the correct bit.



Similar to the first image, but with three errors highlighted due to jitter.

* Although this is a simplification, it illustrates how lossless compression, like Shorten, FLAC or ALAC works (and how zip or rar works as well). Let's say you have a data stream thusly:
0111011000001
This can be described as (in a digital form):
zero one one one zero one one zero zero zero zero zero one
And can be re-written as (in a digital form):
a zero, three ones, a zero, two ones, five zeros, a one.
To describe the above, it takes fewer digital instructions than it takes to write the original data, and the original data can always be re-constructed, without loss, from the compressed variant.

Great post Johnny - thanks!

CanadianMaestro

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Re: Apple and FLAC
« Reply #13 on: 15 Sep 2017, 06:15 pm »
 :thumb:

hope it's accurate  :green:

jk

Pundamilia

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Re: Apple and FLAC
« Reply #14 on: 15 Sep 2017, 08:09 pm »
@Johnny2Bad  +1 :thumb:

gbaby

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Re: Apple and FLAC
« Reply #15 on: 15 Sep 2017, 11:20 pm »
:thumb:

hope it's accurate  :green:

jk

The problem is the post missed the point. I was writing about how it did not make sense to convert a flac file to PCM when the flac file is compressed already. It should be vice versa.  :o

dB Cooper

Re: Apple and FLAC
« Reply #16 on: 16 Sep 2017, 02:02 am »
So far only for iPhone 7 and newer. So far the iPad Pro doesn't include FLAC in the list of supported file types.

That sucks if true, because there's no technical reason why if earlier phones will support Apple Lossless (which they will), they should handle FLAC too. I have apps like Vox that will play FLAC on my SE right now, it's just that file management is a PITA due to lack of native OS support.

I will be following this topic, for sure.

James Tanner

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Re: Apple and FLAC
« Reply #17 on: 16 Sep 2017, 10:24 am »
Hi dB

Have a look at this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_11#Supported_devices

Wikipedia says that any Apple product with a 64-bit processor can handle it, and that goes all the way back to the iPhone 5.

james

Marius

Re: Apple and FLAC
« Reply #18 on: 28 Sep 2017, 05:48 am »
fwiw:


Plex (albeit Beta) for Ios supports direct Flac playback:


 


Which is cool, cause it allows me to browse my library (the same ive pointed both Plex and Bryston BDP to) and play all my flac files locally on the iPhone. Worldwide.


Long time wish Bryston's MM or hopefully the new NN will allow us to do also. Chris, still on the todo list please?


Cheerio,
Marius
 

Pundamilia

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Re: Apple and FLAC
« Reply #19 on: 28 Sep 2017, 01:31 pm »
Does Bryston have any recommendations as to preferred audio file formats for the BDPs? I have been ripping to .WAV, but I understand that this format is less than ideal when it comes to storing metadata (Artist, Genre, etc.), compared to FLAC. I don't really care about compress/uncompressed because storage is cheap. If I can reduce the processing load on the BDP CPU (currently a BDP-2) that would be a consideration - or if there are other issues that I should be aware of. :scratch: