Very interesting read. But there is no way it will give the 3D, holographic, imaging a good tube amp will. I am talking about the lit up from within, individual images being 3D and not flat like most solid state amps, except Class As. Is this an A/B amp?
Anyway I hope you are right as it gives a new option for top shelf sound. BI, or Tri amping anyone?
Rocket Ronny
Very interesting read. But there is no way it will give the 3D, holographic, imaging a good tube amp will. I am talking about the lit up from within, individual images being 3D and not flat like most solid state amps, except Class As. Is this an A/B amp?
Anyway I hope you are right as it gives a new option for top shelf sound. BI, or Tri amping anyone?
Rocket Ronny
Cool, just read up on them. Class A front end for the 3D imaging and power of Class D. I like it. Are the ST-9, 10, and integrated up to the same sonic performance?
If I did not already own some Tube Research Lab gear I would considering a purchase.
Rocket Ronny
Honestly I don't think your associated gear isn't good enough to make this claim true for everyone.
Do you know if your DAC has a buffered output? It uses an Alps Blue Velvet (not that good).
Sounds more like you've achieved synergy.
Make a two channel version and you would get my attention!
Nice.
I see a nuforce 20 amp on the site. Is Nuprime a division of Nuforce?
Rocket Ronny
Cool, just read up on them. Class A front end for the 3D imaging and power of Class D. I like it. Are the ST-9, 10, and integrated up to the same sonic performance?
If I did not already own some Tube Research Lab gear I would considering a purchase.
Rocket Ronny
Make a two channel version and you would get my attention!
How much better than NuForce Reference 20?
I have not personally heard or auditioned the Ref 20 (as I mentioned above).
Audio Alchemy has basically a 2 channel version. It's class A front end, class D. Better? Probably, but wasn't the end all if you ask me.
A lot of equipment makes up for problems elsewhere in the chain. I don't believe it makes it correct however, or really good. But it can provide synergy.
How would the K-38 sound using only 2 of its 8 channels?
I have a Schitt Yggdrasil DAC feeding a Tortuga LDR preamp to a pair of Sophia Electric 91-01 single ended 8 watt mono tube amps to some high efficiency Cain & Cain speakers (and two subs). Would replacing the Sophia amps with the K-38 be power overkill in my system?
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks
I would think the K-38, while overkill already, for your system it might be even more so.
Give me a chance to spend some time with the STA-9 and see how it compares.
The Sonic Qualities of the STA-9 are supposed to be even more "smooth, and tube like", which may be better suited to your speakers.
Anyone reading AudioCircle knows that there are HUNDREDS of criteria on which YOU judge your gear. I am the same way, but have had the luxury of "maybe" hearing more samples over the years, as well as clearly knowing what I think makes good sound.
Very bold claims. If it's true, great. That is a horrible delivery of such a claim though. :o+1
Risky on the credibility level.
@alexreusch
Two questions:
1ª Do you live in Reus / Tarragona / Spain? I live in Tarragona.
No, I do live in Zurich, Switzerland
2ª Do you use a power conditioner?
Yes, I use the Isotek EVO3 Aquarius, the unit at the bottom in my rack.
John, don't take this too literal or personal. Audio gear and systems as a whole are sort of like... women... (up to a certain extent). The more time you spend with them, the more you get to know them. If the relationship (or relationships) are positive and enduring - not merely a brief encounters or even worse ...one nighters - you really get to know that piece of gear ...or woman. She (or it) makes a memorable and enduring impression.
But if you're a gear slut so to speak in the sense that you always have a lot of girls on the go, you'll never be in a position to rightly judge the intimate knowledge that only comes from having an enduring relationship.
DAC (Digital Amplifier Company) has also claimed to have built the best amp ever so you're not alone at issuing this opinion. What rubs me the wrong way is the hyped salesmanship. Since this is an "audiophile" forum don't you think that the over caffeinated sales pitch is overkill in addressing a relatively sophisticated audience? Hard sell sorta turns me off.
DAC (Digital Amplifier Company) has also claimed to have built the best amp ever so you're not alone at issuing this opinion. What rubs me the wrong way is the hyped salesmanship. Since this is an "audiophile" forum don't you think that the over caffeinated sales pitch is overkill in addressing a relatively sophisticated audience? Hard sell sorta turns me off.
And what about the Nores four years ago. I have noticed many of those fanboys have sold them, even the NC1200's.That's exactly what I was wondering about as I read along through the thread.
Same here. It was almost like they made my skin crawl. But really one problem i had with was the bass, maybe it was my speakers, i dont know,it just seemed like there was way way to much,to overpowering. It was all i focused on.I know some can like that,but its not for me one bit. It certainly wasnt what you'd hear in a performance. Is this at all similar to anyone else?
Same here. It was almost like they made my skin crawl. But really one problem i had with was the bass, maybe it was my speakers, i dont know,it just seemed like there was way way to much,to overpowering. It was all i focused on.I know some can like that,but its not for me one bit. It certainly wasnt what you'd hear in a performance. Is this at all similar to anyone else?
Traditional class D amps have problems with the tweeter or HF, creating an artificial sound.
With a class A buffer the sound is better. And with the addition of even harmonics (via pair of JFET), like new NuPrime amps, a hopeful future opens for class D, I think.
The ideal is an integrated like Nuprime IDA-8 but with good/last dual ESS Sabre DAC, bigger toroid and capacitors. And we can adjust the power of the harmonics is the future too.
Have you MET John? :o
That's just his personality, and this is kind of subdued for him.
I heard it as him saying, "hey, here's something you might not have considered that has proven to be fantastic in my system"
I TRUST JOHN C and his opinions.
Strangely enough, I toned my "actual" enthusiasm DOWN a couple notches before I hit post.
Excessive use of bold and CAPS can actually UNDERMINE credibility and turn a post into an over-the-top CARTOON.
Using LARGE FONTS further reduces the chance of being taken SERIOUSLY.
My $0.02 ..... I think it's best to let carefully chosen words convey the message, then italics, underline or bold can be sparingly applied when needed for a little emphasis.
And what about the Nores four years ago. I have noticed many of those fanboys have sold them, even the NC1200's.If you're going to throw stones it might be best to know the reason(s) before doing so. While it might be funny while sitting behind your computer wherever you live there are humans on the other side.
If you're going to throw stones it might be best to know the reason(s) before doing so. While it might be funny while sitting behind your computer wherever you live there are humans on the other side.
:scratch:
So why did you and so many others sell their Ncores, the worlds greatest amps. You tell me.
If someone sells the product, you can be sure that their review of the product is not objective.
If someone sells the product, you can be sure that their review of the product is not objective
ALL reviews are subjective.Of course all reviews are subjective but its also true that your own self interest can color your perceptions regardless if you realize it or not.
I think this is more a debate over styles of salesmanship. It's that I prefer a more low key approach that respects the intelligence of the prospective buyer.
You're right on both accounts. The less a salesman says, the better. OTOH I don't have a problem with a salesman calling attention to something someone else has said.
In spite of John's style, I can still appreciate his enthusiasm and respect his experience. We can all learn a lot from each other and that's what keeps me coming back.
You're right on both accounts. The less a salesman says, the better. OTOH I don't have a problem with a salesman calling attention to something someone else has said.Agreed! :thumb:
In spite of John's style, I can still appreciate his enthusiasm and respect his experience. We can all learn a lot from each other and that's what keeps me coming back.
You're right on both accounts. The less a salesman says, the better. OTOH I don't have a problem with a salesman calling attention to something someone else has said.
In spite of John's style, I can still appreciate his enthusiasm and respect his experience. We can all learn a lot from each other and that's what keeps me coming back.
Thanks Windchaser, and while this has gone off track, the more important thing is that someone looking for an INCREDIBLE sounding Amp, at a reasonable price, MIGHT just consider a HIGHLY UNLIKELY Candidate.
And glad you appreciate my enthusiasm, as it has been a long time since I have been so impressed with a couple products, and THAT is why I have them (or will) in my system and offer them to others with similar goals.
If you're going to throw stones it might be best to know the reason(s) before doing so. While it might be funny while sitting behind your computer wherever you live there are humans on the other side.
I sold my Ncore 400's and bought NC 1200's.
They aren't the world's greatest amps and other than one poster who shall remain nameless, nobody ever said they were.
What there were AND still are, are outstanding amps that sound fantastic and can drive almost any speaker.
BTW, I sold my NC 400's in about 24 hrs...so clearly there is still a demand for them years later.
Lastly...Is it really necessary to put down product "x" to talk positively about product "y"?
Just enjoy your purchase and talk about its positive aspects.
George
And glad you appreciate my enthusiasm...
So what kind of class d chip does this amp use?
It is a proprietary design.
From the website:
"The MCH-K38 amplifier is derived from the ULCAM (Ultra Linear Class A Module)+Class D design first introduced in IDA-8. By joining a powerful high impedance single-ended amplifier circuit in the preamp stage with a well integrated Class-D power stage, the MCH-K38’s rich tube-like sound and tremendous speed is sure to impress audio enthusiasts. By utilizing a 1000W power supply and CMA capacitor array, the MCH-K38 fully exploits the Class A+D design’s ability to deliver massive amounts of power and speed when needed by a single or multi channels."
If that is helpful.
And on the Ncore tour, there were several listeners that did not like the sound of the over-hyped Ncores.
Sounds like what Davialet is trying to pull off. Class A with Class D. I hope the NuPrime sounds better than the Devialet!! That amp had zero emotion! Like sitting in a room with all white walls!
Though what you're describing isn't really any different from virtually every new product that comes out. Announcement, hype machine, squawking parrots, units circulate, lovey dovey, more hype, a few detractors, anger disbelief, hype counterhype, more squawking, hype dies down, those who like it still like it, those who refused the hype feel vindicated, no one cares anymore except for the squawkers, announcement for next shiny thing comes out. Repeat ad nauseam.
Though what you're describing isn't really any different from virtually every new product that comes out. Announcement, hype machine, squawking parrots, units circulate, lovey dovey, more hype, a few detractors, anger disbelief, hype counterhype, more squawking, hype dies down, those who like it still like it, those who refused the hype feel vindicated, no one cares anymore except for the squawkers, announcement for next shiny thing comes out. Repeat ad nauseam.
John,
I may need to stop by your place for a listen. :)
Hugh,
Yes, I hope to see you at the SHOW.
We are in 1046
John, i look forward to your input on the STA-9 also. Nuprime gonna be at capitol audio fest?
John,
I'll try to get away from our room.
When you get a chance, come down to Trabuco C in the lobby.
Kinda, but the hype for the Ncore was at a level I'd not seen before...or since. It was mostly confined to A/C if I recall though.
It didn't seem quite so bad to me
Power supply is now the dominant cost.
It didn't seem quite so bad to me
As for the new NuPrime amps, I'll have to investigate them. The comments on the power supplies is encouraging as the SMPS is the main reason I had no interest in the Ncore.This was an interesting article by Benchmark (and if any company rides their reputation on numbers, it would be them) on why they switched over to SMPS in their gear: https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/152143111-audio-myth-switching-power-supplies-are-noisy
Switching power supply (SMPS) and linear power supply each has its own advantages，and it also depends on the power requirement and sonic characteristics we want to achieve。I only stated the power supply has become a dominant COST，but the performance is still mainly dictate by the amp board.
AC->power supply->capacitors->amp board
So for smaller power requirement of a few hundred watts, we can use a large capacitors array to provide instantaneous power. Linear power is quieter but slower. A high quality SMPS can be very quiet and extremely fast but it is expensive. MCH-K38 and Ref 20 need too much power so we used an expensive custom designed SMPS (very few company is capable for custom SMPS design). For STA-9 we want the warmth not only from the amp but also linear power. IDA-16 is designed to be very clean and neutral，and need a lot of power in a small space，so custom SMPS was used.
Very bold claims. If it's true, great. That is a horrible delivery of such a claim though. :o
Risky on the credibility level.
These are all fundamental engineering of power amp. If anyone try to explain in terms of some voodoo energy, alignment of something or or how atoms and electrons are manipulated they are in BS territory. There are some secondary effects that we can't correlate but the primary reason the amp sounded good is due to solid and grounded engineering.
It's John's job to promote NuPrime product, what's he supposed to do, tell you it sounds bad. My IDA-16 sounds every bit as good as he described.
Rustydoglim,
John, I look forward to hearing about your evaluation of the STA-9, both as monoblocks and as a single amp. I enjoy a warmer presentation and don't need the high wattage of the MCH-K38. My 97db speakers have servo subs so the amp will only be running the Mids and tweets with whatever amp I use.
Just for the record, I too don't really like large or bold text as it seems a bit over board in the sales department and is distracting to me. However, I'm happy that you get THAT exited about a product and I do realize by your posts that you really enjoy what you are doing.
Happy Memorial Day weekend everyone!
Greg
John, i look forward to your input on the STA-9 also. Nuprime gonna be at capitol audio fest?
This really makes me want to hear the STA-9. My objection to SMPS is based on reliability more than on sonics.
As a lifelong tube guy, I can state that the Primare setup with the benchmark sounds outstanding. I've owned a LOT of gear over the years, including numerous high ticket items, and I'll put up the Benchmark/Primare combo against any setup. While no system is perfect, this one gets pretty close to providing the illusion of a musical event happening. Up until I heard this setup, would not have believed Class D and SMPS gear could sound this good (which includes Hypex and ICE products).
So, while not having heard the K-38, it would not surprise me in the least that this amp would sound great. I'm now a believer that proprietary Class D amps can sound great. would definitely like to hear one sometime. The ability to bride it to 400 watts is a very nice feature. The difference in performance with the Primare configured in mono at 550 watts is remarkable. It's easy to understand why folks would want to get the higher power afforded by by bridging the K-38.
After consulting with the chief engineer, I have more details and very interesting information.
A class-D amp product is consisted of three main components:
Preamp Stage, Class D Stage, Power Supply
(note that this Preamp Stage is not the volume control preamp, but an integral front-end of the Class D amp design)
Preamp Stage design is made of
(A) Op Amp or discrete transistors and in NuPrime's designs there two types: (B)ULCAM (Ultra Linear Class A Module) and (C)SECAM (Single Ended Class A Module)
Practically all the amp products on the market use Op Amp for preamp stage. Only a few very high end products use discrete transistors design. This is hard core analog design. Tube or solid state amp is basically one BIG (giant size) transistor. Now you can see why we could reproduce tube or solid state sound, while keeping the advantage of class D speed and dynamic.
Class D power stage design can be Half Bridge (H) or Full Bridge (F)
Power supply can be Switching (S) or Linear (L)
Now here's where things get really interesting.
IDA-16 = A+H+S (Op Amp + Half Bridge + Switching) for clean, fast, and powerful
ST-10 = A+F+L for clean, fast, smooth and refined
IDA-8 = B+H+L for a little more warmth and fast
STA-9 = C+H+L for tube-like sound, warmth, and fast
K-38 = C+B+H+S
There are more combinations that we can do here: C+H+S or C+B+F+L or C+B+F+S
Chief engineer said there could be literally unlimited number of topologies using transistors for the preamp stage, but to get something good is very tedious work.
I think NuPrime is the only company in the world that can offer this type of ultra high end custom design at budget price.
We plan to introduce Custom Audio (rack mount) very shortly for customers who order large number of channels (> 10) to do custom selection. For example, you might want to have 10 channels of IDA-16 and STA-9 combo sound, but only need 50W per channel (multi-room high end back ground music). We can mount the preamp stage of STA-9 with the Class D power stage of IDA-16, and one 500W SMPS.
Or if you are a speaker company, we can custom design amp module for your active speaker.
Jason, I'm going to put you on the spot, :) for your personal listening which sound profile do you prefer ?You will all be disappointed that I have very little time for music listening (well, I really need Omnia). When I am not traveling 50% of the time, at home I work long hours (I enjoy what I do, taking products to market and creating brands so it is not work to me). I am confined to my home office after 9pm and not allow to play music loud that disturb my family (heavy school work etc).
P.S. How did you get your computer keys coloured like that.You can buy it at < $2 with free shipping from http://www.aliexpress.com (http://www.aliexpress.com) (search for keyboard skin)
P20 is not applicable in this discussion about power amp. Don't confuse the Preamp Stage of a power amp with a Preamp that does input selection and volume control.
Ref 20 is A+F+S
For a long time we have been using OpAmp just like everybody else. A high quality OpAmp circuit can be very good, as used also by many reference amps. But you can't tune the sound. So if you want to sound like tube, then you have to use transistors with tube characteristic. But unlike a tube what is one big transistor with all its good and flaws, we can do a lot with class D and transistors.
Ref 20 wasn't meant to sound like tube.
A Full Bridge class D power stage is more expensive but has an edge over Half Bridge design. So ST-10 and Ref 20 use Full Bridge design.
Switching Power Supply has to be used for so much power density.
I think what we are doing is really a revolutionary steps in Class D, not that the technique was not known by some of the most knowledgeable analog engineers. But it is the extensive mix of analog design techniques and class D designs that is ground breaking. You won't hear about magazines talking about this because nobody wants to promote budget amps with super high end designs.
With regards to a two channel K38, I stated that we have no plan, simply because K38 was designed to be the best amp for movies and music. Further more, the sound characteristic of K38 is quite "American". We have equally important customers in France (who have similar taste as the Chinese) that prefer STA-9, or Japanese and Germans who preferred neutral sound. So here lies the difficult of coming out with a STA-10. How do we strike the balance? So for the mean time, go buy K38 :)
With regards to a two channel K38, I stated that we have no plan, simply because K38 was designed to be the best amp for movies and music. Further more, the sound characteristic of K38 is quite "American". We have equally important customers in France (who have similar taste as the Chinese) that prefer STA-9, or Japanese and Germans who preferred neutral sound. So here lies the difficult of coming out with a STA-10. How do we strike the balance? So for the mean time, go buy K38 :)
My speakers are the Apogee Full Range and the low frequencies and mid/high frequencies must be driven separately which is done by a crossover. Is there a possibility to build a crossover in this mighty amp? Thanks for the reaction(s).
Nonetheless, I'm telling you now that I would jump at the chance to buy a two-channel version of the K38 (assuming I don't cave in and purchase an ST-10 or dual STA-9 beforehand). I have until September/October to decide. Hint hint.
My question: my preamp is a Tortuga LDR, which produces an extremely fast, clean, and refined sound - and then warmth is added in my mono tube amps. I prefer clean and fast over warmth, but do you think replacing my tube amps with the ST-10 would render the sound too lean in my set up? I know it's all a matter of personal preference but I am interested in your thoughts. Thank so much!I think ST-10 will be just the right balance for you. STA-9 will sound too warmth for your liking.
I think ST-10 will be just the right balance for you. STA-9 will sound too warmth for your liking.
I can't emphaisze enough that everyone should refer to the amp comparison guide. It was created with the input of the chief engineer who designed all these amps.
The sound of K38 comes from the preamp stage which has 8 channels combined, even though the amp module is 2 channels. So it is not that straight forward to make a stereo amp and we have to redesign the preamp stage. And then put into production bla bla bla, and four months would be gone. So, it would be better off if we just design a new preamp stage (probably between K38 and ST-10 sound) and pick the class-D stage from one of the amps.
I do understand. I just wanted to let you know others are interested. In all likelihood I will purchase an ST-10 because I'll pair it to a tube preamp and separate DAC. The power of the dual STA-9 is seductive, but it may be too warm sounding.
This really makes me want to hear the STA-9. My objection to SMPS is based on reliability more than on sonics.
Waiting for Casler's reply regarding comparison of K-38 to bridged and unbridged STA-9...
Waiting for Casler's reply regarding comparison of K-38 to bridged and unbridged STA-9...
This is what I would like a comparison of, even thou I don't need the power output of the K-38 or the STA-9 as bridged monos.
I didn't think the power was needed too - until I hear it. So I heard 100 watts then 200 and then 400 (rough numbers)... None of them were louder - well the two larger ones were - but the point was the dynamic capability. And there is / was much more "weight" in the delivery of the music. So is it needed - that's up to you. I can only speak of EDDIE - he sounds better with the 200 and 400 watt amps.
I do get what you are saying, I have heard that with my 86db speakers in spades before. I'm now only running the top end of another pair of my speakers which consists of a midrange and tweeter and they are 97db efficient.They can run on pretty low wattage amps. But even with them I have noticed a much better grip on the midrange driver with bigger amps. And I do like to crank it up on occasion and that's when I really notice it.
I suppose if the amps sound good enough it doesn't matter how big they are, then it comes down to what you think you need or how much you want to spend.
I have a stack of ST-10 and DAC-10H arriving today. I'll be comparing it in stages to my NAD M51/tweaked N-Core NC-400. Should be interesting.
Waiting for Casler's reply regarding comparison of K-38 to bridged and unbridged STA-9...
My speakers (Daedalus Audio) are non-aggressive in the top end and slightly towards the warm side of things so I thought the neutrality and resolution of the ST-10 would be a good match.I owned DA-RMA v2 last year, and I think they will work very well with these. I think they are sonically of the same cloth. The ST-10 is not warm but offers a very natural, unforced view of the music.
jonbee,Balanced.
One other thing. Are you running balanced or single ended to the ST-10?
Also, have you tried running the M51 fixed outputs to the DAC-10 in order to assess the analogue throughput of the DAC-10?
Just an update- I've listened to the ST-10/10H for a few days, an I do like it better than the NAD M51/modded N-core Nc-400 I'd been using. The tonality of the ST-10 is more laid back on top than the N-Core, which necessitated I turn up the ambience tweeters on my Von Schweikerts a bit, but the upper mids are more relaxed and natural on the ST-10. Bass range is a bit better defined, too. No downside I've heard.
I still like the N-Core a lot, and moved it to my office, where it sounds great.
The N-Core cost abut $2200 in parts, plus my labor. At $1600 the ST-10 at least matches it and is the biggest amp bargain I've heard, and with the 10H it offers really fine performance that is hard to match for the $.
It's hard to imagine it being that much better modded, but I'm thinking about the TDSS upgrades. More later if I do that.
It may be possible that "some" of that quality you like is due to a higher carrier frequency (around 550khz-600khz) of the NuPRIME. I looked around, but didn't see the stat for the N-core. Have you read anywhere what it is?
Just an update- I've listened to the ST-10/10H for a few days, an I do like it better than the NAD M51/modded N-core Nc-400 I'd been happily using for the last 3 years. The tonality of the ST-10 is equally detailed but more laid back on top than the N-Core, which necessitated I turn up the ambience tweeters on my Von Schweikerts a bit, but the upper mids are more relaxed and natural on the ST-10. I should note that the VSs are a little laid back on their own, so this observation wouldn't necessarily apply to other speakers. Bass range is a bit better defined, too. No downside I've heard.
I still like the N-Core a lot, and moved it to my office, where it sounds great.
The N-Core cost about $2200 in parts, plus my labor. At $1600 the ST-10 equals or betters it and is the biggest amp bargain I've heard, and with the 10H it offers really fine performance that may well be impossible to beat for the $.
It's hard to imagine it being that much better modded, but I'm thinking about the TDSS upgrades. More later if I do that.
From the Hypex datasheets, the switching frequencies are:
Module Min Typ Max
----------------------------------------------
NC400 470kHz 480kHz 530kHz
NC500 - 450kHz -
NC1200 440kHz 480kHz 520kHz
Steve
I would love to hear my 20's against the current amp in discussion.
As the power exceeded a certain level, the design has to change. Cost goes up exponentially instead of linearly as power goes up.
If you were answering MttBsh's question, which I was hoping you would, I personally didn't get the answer. So, the design had to change, did it change the sound? A lot of us don't need all of the power but still want the quality of sound. I'm personally sold once I get a handle on the differences between going with (2) ST-9s or the ST-10. I too run a really good tube preamp which adds a quality to the music I have never had with SS preamps or any other tube pre for that matter. I've tried several SS amps in my system, class ab, b, bd and d and have been most happy with the Butler 2250 which is a hybrid amp with one tube per channel on the output stage. I still feel like the upper freq. are a bit hard but the midrange is very nice. If I could find an amp that could smooth out the upper mids and highs I would stop looking for amps and start spending money on other parts of my system like a new dac or roon with HQplayer running on my mac mini.
. If I could find an amp that could smooth out the upper mids and highs I would stop looking for amps and start spending money on other parts of my system like a new dac or roon with HQplayer running on my mac mini.Since you are already familiar with and like what hybrids offer, you might look at Moscode. When they come available used, they are usually reasonably priced, and are quite musical in their mids and highs.
Jonbee, for reference have you tried a Crown XLS 1500 in your system? I have and found the top end and upper midrange harsh but was hoping for a comparison to get a better feel for the upper frequencies of the ST-10.No, haven't heard it. The open, smooth, natural mids and highs as well as the very powerful, clean bass are the elements of the ST-10 that stand apart. Refinement and slam.
Hi Rustydoglim, thanks for your reaction on my question. I have another question. For driving my speakers the lf and mf/hf needs separate amp's. If I use 2 K38's with bridged channels for full power, two bridged channels of each K38's will not be used. Is this a bad thing for this amp? Thanks, Eugene
Not at all, the front panel has the on/off buttons for each channel. You just turn off the unused channels.Going on the opposite direction, any chance we will see a 3 channel version of this amp (K-33) with both balanced and un-balanced inputs.
It would be great if NuPrime would develop an amp with integrated DSP similar to what the Crown XLS 1502 offers.
Is the MCH K38 overkill with Spatial M3 Turbo S speakers?do you have eight of them?
No this wouldn't be for a pro setup. It would be for bi-amping diy speakers, so to eliminate the need for an external dsp, associated cables and passive crossover. As you say, simplify...simplify. :)
do you have eight of them?Eight channels aside... I mean, are the Spatials capable of showing off most of the K38's abilities reasonably well?
With the Spatial's you are perfectly fine with the ST-10 and keep the cost difference in your pocket for something else.Thank you
Is the MCH K38 overkill with Spatial M3 Turbo S speakers?
Strangely enough, I just had a gentleman with whom I was discussing the ST-10 for the Spatial M3 Turbo's that Clayton told him he would be better off with 400wpc??????
The specs say as little as 5wpc will drive them.
Go figure.
But if this fellow was in any way accurate (I think Clayton also sells a 500wpc amp) then the K-38 "bridged" would meet even those outlandish assertions.
That said, again I would defer to JackD, who actually has tried the ST-10 with them, and felt the ST-10 quite capable.
So is it "overkill"? Well, in the fact that you would (or could) bi-amp with 400wpc x 2 into each speaker with what I have stated is the best amp my ears have heard.
But again, you would likely never explore the advantages in dynamics and SPLs, so you might be in the overkill territory (although it would be glorious)
Yes, and I'd like to know more about the differences in circuit design between the STA-9, ST-10, and K38 amps. I've read the amp comparison chart, but would like to know why the ST-10 has better soundstaging, detail and dynamics than the STA-9. Is it the power supply, the chip, sampling frequency, what makes the difference in sound quality?
Unfortunately I can't see any correlation between the use of different driver stages, power stages, and power supplies and the amplifier comparison chart.I suggest that users ignore the technical details and just focus on the Amp Comparison chart. Off course you can't correlate fully because it is not as simple as assembling lego blocks to get certain result. What we have shown is the concept.
What happened with the comparsion with STA-9 in bridged mode?
Yes I am interested in this also if you have had the time. I know you said after "The Show"
What happened with the comparsion with STA-9 in bridged mode?
I suggest that users ignore the technical details and just focus on the Amp Comparison chart. Off course you can't correlate fully because it is not as simple as assembling lego blocks to get certain result. What we have shown is the concept.
Forget about the WHY, just follow the recommendation.
For example, if you are a circuit design engineer, then you would know the trade offs between Full Bridge and Half Bridge circuit. If you don't, this is not the forum for circuit design, and I am certainly not qualified to explain. Similarly, how challenging is using discrete transistor to create the desire sonic characteristic? What we have explained here (preamp stage, Class-D amp stage, switching PSU, linear PSU and various trade offs) are known to circuit design engineers, but very few would be able to achieve the kind of control, precision and performance that we have done here. An analogy would be "we all know how to drive a car, but few can win the Indy500".
I have a master degree in electrical engineering, but major in computing. And I can only understand half of what my chief engineer is telling me (may be half is a big exaggeration). I do understand how a transistor works, and have done simple design with transistor (long time ago), But what he has done is really hard.
I met a German speaker designer at the high end show in Munich in May. He doesn't know how it works, but he is smart enough to buy the STA-9 and IDA-16, take the preamp stage of STA-9 and combine it with the power amp module in IDA-16, and created a new sound and he told me it is incredible. I guess he doesn't want as much warmth as STA-9, and also not as neutral as IDA-16. Bingo.
So imagine if one day we can let you customise your sonic characteristic comfortably at home by flipping a few switches, everything is so smooth, so powerful, so dynamic, so perfect and yet customisable. Did I just describe audio heaven? Hopefully we will get there in less than 5 years time. And it will be affordable.
So imagine if one day we can let you customise your sonic characteristic comfortably at home by flipping a few switches, everything is so smooth, so powerful, so dynamic, so perfect and yet customisable. Did I just describe audio heaven? Hopefully we will get there in less than 5 years time. And it will be affordable.
Today I will go from two STA-9, used as mono blocks, to an MCH-K38. I will use it in a bi-wire setup with 4 channels in bridged mode. :drool:
I must say that STA-9 is a very good amp, but to compare them with K38 is ridiculously. K38 is much much better at everything.
I use K38 bridged to 4 channels. 2 channels at 400 W each to each speaker. My speakers, Magnepan 3.3/R, seems to like the power (2 x 800 W) from K38.
So far the K38 is giant killer! :notworthy:
I will give you more feedback later. Now I have to listen to more music.
There is a minor 50 Hz hmmmmm when K38 is connected via xlr-cables. Connected via rca-cables is silent.
Something wrong with my xlr-cables or anything else?
Very strange. I didn't have this problem with STA-9 with same cables.
I have to try with some other xlr-cables.
I will test with som other xlr cables.
There is no need to do that anymore. We have to replace a board on the MCH-K38.
We just need to get the instruction and board for you. No soldering is needed to replace the board.
By coincidence I found this information today.
"Due to the XLR shield and ground pin specification (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XLR_connector), some manufacturers implement it differently from others, therefore there could be humming noise if a non NuPrime product is connected to MCH-K38 using XLR cables.
XLR Hum Eliminator products from http://www.ebtechaudio.com/hedes.html can be used to completely remove the noise and improve performance."
It seems to me that Nuprime has made some kind of special xlr connection in MCH-K38. It can' t the same as in STA-9. Why? This is not good at all! :nono:
I found the information in the FAQ releated to Home Theater and not in the Power Amp section. :duh:
Now I have to spend money on one or several "Hum Eliminators". :icon_twisted:
Apparently the engineers found a "fix" in a snap in replaceable board.
Now things are moving a little bit forward. :D
This evening I have installed the new board, but there is still a 50 Hz humming noice. :cry:
What to do?
I'm considering the NuPrime MCH-K38 but on one dealer site SNR is listed as < -80dB, which doesn't seem acceptable to me, but on the NuPrime site it's listad as SNR < -95 dB which isn't that great either, someone want to enlighten me?
I'm considering the NuPrime MCH-K38 but on one dealer site SNR is listed as < -80dB, which doesn't seem acceptable to me, but on the NuPrime site it's listad as SNR < -95 dB which isn't that great either, someone want to enlighten me?
Thanks
J
Only a 1 year warranty :nono: . Most amps are at least 3 years if not 5. Wyred 4 Sound 5 years, Emotiva 5 years.
That is a deal breaker for me.
It's listed as > 80dB in the Specifications section of the downloadable Manual as well.
MCH-K38 Manual (http://www.nuprimeaudio.com/index.php/products/downloads/send/20-mch-k38/28-mch-k38-pdf-manual.html)
I have now changed to my "old" preamp with only unbalanced output and the sound is amazing. I can't understand how Nuprime can make such a wonderful amp at that price level. :notworthy:
And THAT sir, is why I started this thread. :thumb:
You didn't start this thread. It was someone else. :wave:
This amp just get better and better. :D I just love the power and the dynamic in the amp. 8)
Yesterday I heard something I never ever heard before. I was playing Pink Floyd´s Money and there is an fantastic guitar solo in the first part. At least I have always thought that it´s an guitar solo, but it´s not. As far as I heard it´s two guitar playing the "solo".
I don't understand how NuPrime can make such an excellent amp for that kind om money! :thumb:
So do they have a 2 chanel amp that has the magic????
So do they have a 2 chanel amp that has the magic????
If you bridge outputs and bi-amp your speakers... that's sort of like 2 channels :green:
Wonder how they will sound with LX521s. Maybe its time to build a pair.
I wonder @jason can the K38 run into 2 Ohm loads in bridged mode or normal mode?
No problem with 2 Ohm load in either mode.
What I like so far is the presentation. Even at low volume, which my old Yamaha couldn't do.
Adding this a separate post...
The K38 is a beast...its images on the website belittle its heft and size to say the least. I was quite surprised at the size, not to say its huge, rather that it looked larger than I expected from the web site images, but the big surprise was the weight!!! And the external build quality is superb. Well done NuPrime - I am looking forward to seeing how this compares with the existing 2 x Emotiva Gen 2 XPA-5's it will potentially replace...granted its 3-4 times the price, for 8 as opposed to 10 channels.
I use it as an 8 channel amp - 4 channels for each speaker (Bass,Bass,Mid,Tweeter) in an active setup detailed here http://www.linkwitzlab.com/LX521/Description.htm and my build here http://walaneh.com/LX521/
I might just relegate the XPA-5's to HT channels duty and use the Linkwits setups exclusively for stereo use...they currently are the L/R for the HT setups.
Can the MCHK38 drive a channel at 2 Ohms?
I'm considering wiring two 4 Ohms subwoofer drivers (that will bring me down to 2 Ohms) to help boost sensitivity, or to be used as 2 mono subs using the same signal.
I've looked online or in the documentation, and I didn't find any information regarding 2 Ohms operation. It talks about 4 and 8 Ohms, but no mention of 2 Ohms. Which kinda lets me believe that it won't do 2 Ohms, but figured I'd ask anyway! :)
Thanks!
And Happy Holidays!
For MCH spec, nobody in the industry put up ALL channel driver power, nobody.
In general we follow a formula of 2 channel fully driven + a portion of the remaining channels (can't recall the exact formula). This is because movie or music never have all channel driven, so the formula is more than sufficient to cover all real life situation.