IEC power jack and a removable 3 conductor power cord

dlparker · « **Reply #40 on:** 19 Jun 2011, 06:46 pm »

Quote from: avahifi on 17 Jun 2011, 08:04 pm

Yah, lets see how badly you can beat the power cord we supply with the unit! I am really anxious to know.

Of course you are going to have to actually buy one of our new units with removeable power cord first.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

Will there be cryo-treatment options for the connector and the power cord? You could just leave 'em out on the back porch for a few weeks in the winter, and charge a couple extra grand..

jhm731 · « **Reply #41 on:** 20 Jun 2011, 07:07 am »

Never has so much been written about so little.

I remember this post from Wayner:

"I could care less about a captive cord or not. If Frank wanted to put in an IEC socket, I would be engineering one into the sheet metal in a heartbeat. however, IMHO, the cost, potential problems and other weird manifestations are not worth it. In another thread, someone asked about the amperage of a 16 ga. cord. That would be 13 amps continuous. Or 1560 watts at 120 volts. Everything in the world (except for maybe audio) is designed for proper wire size. Industy can't afford to put 12 ga. wire on something that only requires 16 ga. We'd run out of copper."

Here's one from me:

"Most audiophile and professional amps today have IEC connectors. For example, the highly respected Bryston amps which have a 20 year warranty use IEC connectors. I never read about any problems or weird manifestations

I hope this change brings in lots of sales for AVA.

Wayner · « **Reply #42 on:** 20 Jun 2011, 12:00 pm »

Weird manifestations would be caused by creative cord artists, causing more harm then good.

As it turns out, myself and a few other members of the AVA group pushed for this change to keep up with the industry. Now the captive cord critics have no beef. The IEC socket does allow the user to change the cord length, assist in cord routing (because it's easy to remove from the chassis) and replace damaged cords easily.

We know there will be people that are going to put exotic size (and cost) power cords on, but that is out of AVA control. We suggest using common sense and use the nice supplied cord that came with the unit.

Wayner

rcag_ils · « **Reply #43 on:** 20 Jun 2011, 11:12 pm »

Quote

The IEC socket does allow the user to change the cord length, assist in cord routing (because it's easy to remove from the chassis) and replace damaged cords easily.

That's was precisely what I said during the removable cord discussion once upon a time. Wayne's response was it would cause unreliability since it might get knock loose after the move.

Just want to set the record straight.

Wayner · « **Reply #44 on:** 20 Jun 2011, 11:14 pm »

And I am correct, as long as we are setting the record straight.

Wayner

rcag_ils · « **Reply #45 on:** 21 Jun 2011, 02:08 am »

Quote

And I am correct, as long as we are setting the record straight.

At that time you said I was not correct for saying removable IEC was only good for rerouting wire, you said removable IEC was only bad for reliability, and had nothing to do with easy rerouting.

Therefore, I was correct way before you, since you've copied what I said, now the record is more straight, thank you.

So why would you recommend something that's so unreliable?

Wayner · « **Reply #46 on:** 21 Jun 2011, 11:57 am »

Not all IEC sockets and cords are made the same. The cords in my Martin Logans constantly work their way out. The set that we found for use on AVA is a secure and sound fit, the cord and IEC socket fit perfectly. Other combinations my not be like that.

Perhaps at some point, you may figure out that not all components made by different manufacturers are not a perfect fit when mated. That is why AVA had (and still has) concerns for proper cord fit for those that decide to search for aftermarket cords.

We have to be concerned about many different scenarios.

Wayner

rcag_ils · « **Reply #47 on:** 21 Jun 2011, 02:43 pm »

Quote

Not all IEC sockets and cords are made the same. The cords in my Martin Logans constantly work their way out. The set that we found for use on AVA is a secure and sound fit, the cord and IEC socket fit perfectly. Other combinations my not be like that.

That's very true, I have never seen any exotic highend power cord. The ordinary desk top computer power cords are very secure, since PC get moved around a lot. I've seen other earlier power cord came loose after two quick pulls.

Wayner · « **Reply #48 on:** 21 Jun 2011, 06:40 pm »

I believe Frank was having trouble with his Oppo's cord coming out of the socket. One of the requirements to be fulfilled when we went to the IEC was to find a socket and cord combination that was 1) the correct wire gauge and 2) very secure when inserted.

Wayner

srb · « **Reply #49 on:** 21 Jun 2011, 08:07 pm »

On many aftermarket power cords, while the contacts themselves within the IEC connector may be secure, the IEC connector itself is often much larger, massive and longer than normal. That combined with a very thick and/or stiff cord can exert much greater torque and leverage than is normally encountered with a standard cord, easily wrenching it out of the socket.

On another note, now that Van Alstine has given in to the majority who want IEC connectors, there are those on the other side who now lament the loss of the captive cord for future purchases. One idea might be to have a batch of inexpensive IEC cover plates made. Two holes on either end where the IEC connector would normally be bolted to the rear panel and one center hole to accept a strain relief for captive cord. The option of IEC or captive would make everyone happy (with IEC as standard).

Steve

Wayner · « **Reply #50 on:** 21 Jun 2011, 08:55 pm »

I already have a "cover" plate designed for just that purpose, tho I don't know if Frank wants to offer it right now. The ground lift switch would be useless in this application as well, as he would have to offer only the 2 prong usual cord.

However, the captive cord crowd should be aware that every possible step has been taken to keep the electrical properties the same. It is the same gauge cord (now with defeatable ground) and will sound exactly the same as the captive cord models.

Wayner

smwick · « **Reply #51 on:** 21 Jun 2011, 09:46 pm »

I have to say the IEC connector on both the amp and dac/pre are very tight and secure. My previous equipment had very loose fitting IEC connectors (Rega Mira3). If I moved the Rega amp the power cord would nearly fall out. I should mention that I am using VH Audio power cords, as I have had them for a few years. The power cord for the amp is massive and is very secure in the AVA connector. It didn't matter to me if the equipment was pre wired or not, but I think it's a smart business move for AVA.

Tone Depth · « **Reply #52 on:** 22 Mar 2016, 09:11 pm »

Frank,

I noticed on another equipment manufacturer's circle, a statement that there are new standards/regulations prohibiting using a ground lift switch, in regards to a question about an upgraded amplifier no longer including one. Would you be able to update us on this situation, regarding AVA equipment that presently has ground lift switches?

Thanks

Quote from: Tone Depth on 15 Jun 2011, 02:31 am

There is a new announcement on the AVA website: http://avahifi.com/ All new AVA equipment is shipping equipped with an IEC power jack and a removable 3 conductor power cord.

Wayner · « **Reply #53 on:** 22 Mar 2016, 11:52 pm »

I believe those regulations are for equipment not designed for interior home use, such as commercial equipment, in which components may be exposed to the elements (rain, snow, sleet), and be located on wet, conductive surfaces, such as concrete, wet grass etc.

AVA equipment, as almost all other non-commercial, home use (indoor) equipment is not required to have a 3-prong plug, as is the case with table lamps, radios, TVs, CD players, FM tuners, preamps, tape recorders, turntables, some toasters and things of this nature. Older AVA components were equipped with polarized 2-prong plugs that insured that the "line-in" 120 volt load was fused, not the common, which would be a violation of the NEC.

The common can not be switched. Older equipment (non AVA) with non-polarized plugs had an issue with this very topic.

Tone Depth · « **Reply #54 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 02:46 am »

I appreciate your input, Wayner! Perhaps that other manufacturer designs their equipment to meet some commercial standards.

Quote from: Wayner on 22 Mar 2016, 11:52 pm

I believe those regulations are for equipment not designed for interior home use, such as commercial equipment, in which components may be exposed to the elements (rain, snow, sleet), and be located on wet, conductive surfaces, such as concrete, wet grass etc.

AVA equipment, as almost all other non-commercial, home use (indoor) equipment is not required to have a 3-prong plug, as is the case with table lamps, radios, TVs, CD players, FM tuners, preamps, tape recorders, turntables, some toasters and things of this nature. Older AVA components were equipped with polarized 2-prong plugs that insured that the "line-in" 120 volt load was fused, not the common, which would be a violation of the NEC.

The common can not be switched. Older equipment (non AVA) with non-polarized plugs had an issue with this very topic.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #55 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 04:12 am »

Quote from: Wayner on 22 Mar 2016, 11:52 pm

Older AVA components were equipped with polarized 2-prong plugs that insured that the "line-in" 120 volt load was fused, not the common, which would be a violation of the NEC.

The common can not be switched. Older equipment (non AVA) with non-polarized plugs had an issue with this very topic.

As a point of interest, old hot-chassis radios were more-or-less universally wired with the switch in the common line - ostensibly to reduce the chance of hum by putting the switch, which was on the back of the volume control, at the chassis. The result was exactly what the NEC was intended to prevent - a 50/50 chance that the chassis was hot when it was just sitting there, not playing. Many of them used old paper/foil caps across the line to remove RF from the power cord, and these are routinely found damaged/burned up, and in the case of Bumblebee and Black Beauties, blown up. They make quite a sound when the go, like a .22 going off, and shrapnel everywhere.

Brett

Speedskater · « **Reply #56 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 06:48 pm »

Two important points seem to have been overlooked.
**********************************************
NEC Article 250.114
Equipment Connected by Cord and Plug.
Under any of the conditions described in 250.114(1) through (4),
exposed non–current-carrying metal parts of cord-and-plug connected equipment likely to become energized shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductor. [hi-fi equipment would be in (3b)]

**************************************
Underwriters Laboratories (UL) is a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL). The UL symbol represents a product that passed UL's NRTL tests.
So while NEC sets the code and UL does the testing, it's the local Authority Having Jurisdiction (city or state government) that makes the laws. They can include or exclude any part of the NEC code or UL test that they want.

*****************************
******************************
So what does this all mean?
a] NEC code does not permit ground lift switches.
b] The local Authority Having Jurisdiction will probably require UL testing.

jea48 · « **Reply #57 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 08:25 pm »

Quote from: Speedskater on 23 Mar 2016, 06:48 pm

Two important points seem to have been overlooked.
**********************************************
NEC Article 250.114
Equipment Connected by Cord and Plug.
Under any of the conditions described in 250.114(1) through (4),
exposed non–current-carrying metal parts of cord-and-plug connected equipment likely to become energized shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductor. [hi-fi equipment would be in (3b)]

**************************************
Underwriters Laboratories (UL) is a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL). The UL symbol represents a product that passed UL's NRTL tests.
So while NEC sets the code and UL does the testing, it's the local Authority Having Jurisdiction (city or state government) that makes the laws. They can include or exclude any part of the NEC code or UL test that they want.

*****************************
******************************
So what does this all mean?
a] NEC code does not permit ground lift switches.
b] The local Authority Having Jurisdiction will probably require UL testing.

As I was reading this thread for the first time and read the ground lift switch lifted the IEC safety equipment ground wire from the chassis, I wondered when somebody would point out that was a no no.

Most audio equipment manufactures that employ a ground lift switch, the switch lifts the signal ground from the chassis. The safety equipment ground should never be lifted from the chassis. That's no different than using a ground cheater between the power cord plug and the grounding type wall receptacle.

As you, (Speedskater), already know 2 wire cord and plug audio equipment made today, that have a metal chassis, have double insulated AC power wiring. I believe even the primary winding of the power transformer is doubled insulated. Technically for the equipment to be sold in the US, I believe, it must be Listed by a recognized third party Safety Testing Laboratory. UL and or CSA for example.
Jim

Wayner · « **Reply #58 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 10:08 pm »

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PSPWAC3

Wayner · « **Reply #59 on:** 23 Mar 2016, 11:09 pm »

UL listed "cheater" plug:

Here is a plug, by its very nature and soulful purpose is to defeat the ground, and UL says that that's OK. They even gave it a listing number.

I'm afraid some of you don't know who, which one your talkin' about........