[DaveC113]

Yeah, but the backward output of OBs add reflection coloration that isn't on the recording therefore loses accuracy. It may sound pleasant but  it adds an artificial coloration therefore adding a synthetic attribute too.

Yup.

Russell, the effect you describe is fairly easily dealt with. I think with box speakers the biggest issue is diffraction around the baffle. In any case, it's certainly possible to get a box speaker to audibly "disappear" despite the issues.

[TimS]

...............
As long as we're sharing opinions I can't understand the appeal of OB. I've experimented with it and imo the system sound better and better the more the backwave is attenuated and best when it's eliminated. IMO, OB serves as a stand-in for spatial information in the recording that has been smoothed out by poor electronics and cables or is buried in a high noise floor. When you have a system that is capable of recreating spatial information and fine detail all OB does is obscure this information and degrade the overall sound.

Is it even possible to completely eliminate the backwave using "acoustic treatments" as mentioned earler?

[Russell Dawkins]

Russell, the effect you describe is fairly easily dealt with. I think with box speakers the biggest issue is diffraction around the baffle. In any case, it's certainly possible to get a box speaker to audibly "disappear" despite the issues.

Sorry, I don't agree with any of these three points.

[Early B.]

Yeah, but the backward output of OBs add reflection coloration that isn't on the recording therefore loses accuracy. It may sound pleasant but  it adds an artificial coloration therefore adding a synthetic attribute too.

One can make the same meaningless statement for a box speaker --

"The backward output produced by drivers in a box add reflection coloration that isn't on the recording, therefore loses accuracy and adds an artificial coloration and synthetic attribute."

[DaveC113]

Is it even possible to completely eliminate the backwave using "acoustic treatments" as mentioned earler?

EDIT: In a box...

For the most part, yes. B&W's tapering cone stuffed with absorptive material is overall an excellent design and all but eliminates the issue. Vivid and many others have used this design as well.

[DaveC113]

One can make the same meaningless statement for a box speaker --

"The backward output produced by drivers in a box add reflection coloration that isn't on the recording, therefore loses accuracy and adds an artificial coloration and synthetic attribute."

Except it's really a non-issue to a decent speaker designer. See my post above.

[DaveC113]

Sorry, I don't agree with any of these three points.

Well, we can't all be right all the time. 

And if you haven't managed to get a box speaker to audibly disappear...  I have and so have many others.

[BrassEar]

And if you haven't managed to get a box speaker to audibly disappear...  I have and so have many others.

No doubt, but at what cost? More specifically, at what cost as compared to an OB design?

[Rocket_Ronny]

Yeah, but the backward output of OBs add reflection coloration that isn't on the recording therefore loses accuracy. It may sound pleasant but  it adds an artificial coloration therefore adding a synthetic attribute too.

Given enough room around the speakers, and back wave delay, the only coloration I hear is "Air". Otherwise there is less coloration than box speakers in general. Secret is to get them off the back wall at least 6'.

Rocket_Ronny

[TomS]

So how does a comparison of two highly regarded open baffle speakers turn into yet another debate about boxes vs baffles 

[Don_S]

WOW!!!  I did not realize OBs had so many technical shortcomings.  And here I am thoroughly enjoying my OBs (Quads) on this rainy day.     I guess ignorance truly is bliss. 

[jseymour]

There must be something wrong with me that I enjoy my Spatial M3 Turbo S so much after replacing my box speakers.  This is a vinyl vs. digital argument.  We all have different ears.  Enjoy what you enjoy, which is ultimately the music.

[schw06]

There must be something wrong with me that I enjoy my Spatial M3 Turbo S so much after replacing my box speakers.  This is a vinyl vs. digital argument.  We all have different ears.  Enjoy what you enjoy, which is ultimately the music.

Me too. After 15 years of box speakers the Spatials were revelatory. I can't see ever going back to boxes. I won't say never but don't see any reason to pursue them.
   We all listen for specific things and for me it's tone and dynamics. Everything else is window dressing. For those that value detail and imaging, I'm sure you have different likes... It's why Baskin Robbins had to come up with 31 flavors. Find what you love and embrace it. Don't worry when someone disparages your beliefs.
   

[DaveC113]

Me too. After 15 years of box speakers the Spatials were revelatory. I can't see ever going back to boxes. I won't say never but don't see any reason to pursue them.
   We all listen for specific things and for me it's tone and dynamics. Everything else is window dressing. For those that value detail and imaging, I'm sure you have different likes... It's why Baskin Robbins had to come up with 31 flavors. Find what you love and embrace it. Don't worry when someone disparages your beliefs.
 

I agree, people take these things too seriously. Everyone has different preferences and nobody is wrong for preferring something. Speakers in particular are always a set of compromises, any speaker in the entire world can be criticized.

[schw06]

I agree, people take these things too seriously. Everyone has different preferences and nobody is wrong for preferring something. Speakers in particular are always a set of compromises, any speaker in the entire world can be criticized.

Well said

[Carl V]

and yet...to the best of my knowledge
all guitars and bass players use box speakers
of various designs, most are 10" drivers.




And most Control rooms and monitoring studios use--- What?

Preferences rule the day on so many levels.

[reelvox]

Any place to hear the M3s in the San Diego area?

[Manolo]

I also use a pair of Quad esl 988's which are still one of the best loudspeakers around and being dipoles, and thus OB, thus similar to my Spatials, lately I feel I have not been missing much or anything really  by listening to the Spatials, they are that good.

[schw06]

and yet...to the best of my knowledge
all guitars and bass players use box speakers
of various designs, most are 10" drivers.




And most Control rooms and monitoring studios use--- What?

Preferences rule the day on so many levels.

 

[JohnR]

I guess ignorance truly is bliss. 

You're not the one that's ignorant. All speakers (of any reasonable size) have a "back wave" - the difference with an OB is that it's (more) uniform across the spectrum, so the power response is closer to the direct response. Plus, OB speakers have a lower amount of room reflections relative to the direct sound than a monopole, and therefore for at least the lower midrange of most box speakers. While correlating subjective impressions with simple technical facts is a risky busness, I suspect these two are probably what some people (including me) perceive as the "sound" of a box speaker aka "boxiness".

Hope that helps.