My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable

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Bob2

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Re: My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable
« Reply #40 on: 29 Aug 2016, 04:16 pm »
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« Last Edit: 6 Nov 2016, 04:10 am by Bob2 »

ACHiPo

Re: My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable
« Reply #41 on: 29 Aug 2016, 06:27 pm »
Shaping up very nicely! Anxious to see with the veneer..
You and me both, brother! :lol:

Thanks!


ACHiPo

Re: My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable
« Reply #42 on: 3 Sep 2016, 11:33 pm »
A little more progress today.  The veneer arrived last weekend, but I didn't get a chance to look through it until today.  I think it's going to be stunning!



Applied veneer softener and pressed it flat.  Also trimmed off a piece for practice.

Got 3  + 2 layers laminated with the polyurethane glue.  It has a very long curing time, which is nice, but also makes things a mess as it's very easy to transfer glue from gloves to other items.





Also got the 1/4"-20 threaded inserts installed, and the armboards drilled and countersunk for allen head bolts.


Bob2

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Re: My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable
« Reply #43 on: 4 Sep 2016, 02:20 am »
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« Last Edit: 6 Nov 2016, 04:08 am by Bob2 »

ACHiPo

Re: My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable
« Reply #44 on: 4 Sep 2016, 05:04 am »
What veneer is that?
Bob,
It's curly Etimoe.   I found a turntable I liked that had similar veneer.  I ordered the Etimoe, then learned the turntable I liked was curly Koa, which is about 3x the price.  All told I'm happy with the Etimoe choice.
AC

Bob2

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Re: My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable
« Reply #45 on: 4 Sep 2016, 11:22 am »
I like that veneer. What finnish will you use? Gloss, semi gloss, satin.......
Please keep posting the progress an pictures.

ACHiPo

Re: My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable
« Reply #46 on: 4 Sep 2016, 04:54 pm »
I like that veneer. What finnish will you use? Gloss, semi gloss, satin.......
Please keep posting the progress an pictures.
I'm going to experiment, but I'm leaning toward gloss.  Not sure if I'll use lacquer, poly, or a French polish.

Bob2

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Re: My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable
« Reply #47 on: 4 Sep 2016, 08:22 pm »
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« Last Edit: 6 Nov 2016, 04:08 am by Bob2 »

ACHiPo

Re: My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable
« Reply #48 on: 5 Sep 2016, 07:48 am »
After looking at: http://www.artisanfidelity.com/gallery-turntables/ I really like the gloss finish.
But that's just my idea of what would look good.
Keep us posted!
I tend to agree.  The picture that gave me the idea was a gloss finish.  I didn't realize it was an Artisan Fidelity deck.

Bob2

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Re: My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable
« Reply #49 on: 5 Sep 2016, 01:19 pm »
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« Last Edit: 6 Nov 2016, 04:09 am by Bob2 »

neobop

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Re: My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable
« Reply #50 on: 5 Sep 2016, 02:43 pm »
Hi Evan,
This will be a thing of beauty, no doubt.

Thought you might like to see some other designs in wood:
http://www.pbnaudio.com/audio-components/audio-turntables/groovemaster/groovemaster-vintage-direct/pbn-dp8

Here's a Teres:



neo

ACHiPo

Re: My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable
« Reply #51 on: 5 Sep 2016, 05:34 pm »
Hi Evan,
This will be a thing of beauty, no doubt.

Thought you might like to see some other designs in wood:
http://www.pbnaudio.com/audio-components/audio-turntables/groovemaster/groovemaster-vintage-direct/pbn-dp8

Here's a Teres:



neo
Neo,
Thanks!  Some inspiring designs and finishes there.
Evan

Norman Tracy

Re: My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable
« Reply #52 on: 5 Sep 2016, 08:19 pm »
VERY nice project you have going here ACHiPo. Inspires me to get my Denon plinth project off the back burner and back in the active project queue.

You wrote "going to experiment, but I'm leaning toward gloss". Reading that makes me want to advise 'abandon hope all ye who enter herein'. I never want to damp down or discourage an ambitious DIY project, the net is full of spectacular results. However there are pitfalls to be aware of and after some years of experimenting with various materials and processes to get a high gloss finish allow me to offer some advice.

1. Under no circumstances do you want to learn how to finish on your main project, in this case your turntable. At the very least test materials and practice your craftsmanship on good sized sample boards. Even better make a jewelry box, phono cartridge storage box, or mini monitor speaker boxes so you can explore and learn how to deal with edge and corner transitions. One option to keep the project moving is to press ahead including veneering the plinth then start its finishing with a couple of coats of shellac. Personally I love the way blond shellac pops the grain and color of veneers. You could even complete the turntable and take it on a shake down run enjoying the music while perfecting your high gloss finishing procedure on the test pieces.

2. The majority of high gloss finishes seen like the examples at Artisan Fidelity are the result of spraying thick coats of polyester or epoxy onto the object, finish sanding with successively finer abrasives and then polishing using automotive finishing tools.





The trick here is getting the finish thick enough to sand optically flat without going through the edges. We also need materials that allow multiple coats to melt into previous layers.

3. In theory it is possible to spray, brush, or pour a finish for a one step high gloss. This is how Japanese lacquer artisans produce traditional Asian lacquer ware.




Every aspect of your materials and technique must be flawless. I have gotten tantalizingly close using pour on tabletop epoxies but there always seems to be one speck, pinhole from a popped bubble or run. This has led me to materials and procedures that allow rework but demand more man-hours and materials investment.

Materials and Processes I have experimented with for high gloss finishes.


1. If you just want one project done consider finding an automotive paint and body shop and paying them a couple hundred dollars to do it. It is not that uncommon they will have already done jobs for guys doing high-end car audio painting subs. Explain you want multiple clear coats then sanding and polishing. Weigh the estimate against spending $15-$40 per can for finish and many $10s on abrasives, sanding pads, power sanding/polishing tools and your hours of time. I have yet to take this advice being a hard-core DIYer who always has another project in the queue.

2. The most DIY friendly material I have used is Minwax Wipe-On Poly. It applies very thin layers so multiple applications are needed. My best results came from having the project setup in a workspace where for many days I would apply one or two coats each day allowing 8 hours drying between coats. After the wood quits drinking it in and the finish starts to build on the wood every couple of layers I wet sand with 400 grit paper eventually going to 600 grit. This works best with a semi-gloss finish like the Teres turntable pictured above. I did achieve a high gloss using Wipe-On on this project.



The limit of Wipe-On is once you get it thick enough for a high-gloss its yellow or golden tint becomes apparent. How serious this is as a limitation will depend on the veneer or stain color you are working on top of.

3. Lacquer and shellac can also be DIY friendly. There are so many formulations and techniques you have to research, select, and test. Today many “lacquer” and “shellac” are environmental friendly chemistries that do not necessarily behave like traditional formulations. Specifically we want to be aware if the selected material has solvents that soften the previous layer as coats are layered on top of previous layers. Many present chemistries link the polymers together during cure and later coats just paint on top of undercoats. Look at the recoat instructions and if it says to apply layers within some short time or wait hours and sand prior to recoating it is the later type. For that deep gloss the layers need to be homogeneous and not reveal layers if high spots of a layer are sanded off while leveling. I have had very good results using rattle can lacquer from the hardware store with say ten coats and lots of sanding during the final coats. Downsides are the time and chemical stink. Also lacquer and shellac are not as durable as poly or epoxy.

4. Pour on epoxies I have used include Famowood Glazecoat and System Three’s MirrorCoat. These are by turns fantastic and frustrating. Costs increase for material is 2x or 3x or more. Add to that drop cloths, gloves, mixing cups, measuring cups (or my preferred $25 digital cooking scale), stir sticks, disposable brushes (or acetone to clean brushes), a propane torch (for popping bubbles prior to cure) and denatured alcohol for surface prep and cleanup. The fantastic part is how the epoxy in one application gives a thick high gloss finish to any level horizontal surface. This is due to the self-leveling aspect of the products. Once the resin and hardener are mixed prior to cure the epoxy has the viscosity of syrup. Pour it on and it flows out and settles to a glass smooth surface. The bubbles trapped in the liquid during stirring are coaxed out with quick passes of the torch. The frustration is what about your vertical surfaces? For table tops (and perhaps a turntable plinth?) the epoxy is allowed to run over the sides and drip onto the workbench or floor. With a brush the material is spread on the sides. Then you get a thick top surface and thinner sides. The alternative is to do multiple pours turning the piece and concentrating on one side placed level and horizontal for each pour, quickly this turns into the challenge of keeping runs off the surfaces not being worked on for a given pour. Another fantastic aspect of these products is they are very low odor. The big frustrations I have had with these systems include the very long cure times and difficulty polishing. I cannot count the number of times I will execute a perfect pour, all the bubbles are popped, the runs all wiped off and a surface that looks like a show car finish. Come back in 6 hours after it has cured and there are the runs that happened an hour after you left and/or a fly that landed in the finish. This starts the cycle of sand off the imperfections and re-coat. Perhaps with an object the size of a turntable plinth one can get that perfect pour and declare success. I am working on two large subwoofers and trying to get twelve sides perfect proved quite elusive. This led me to experimenting with polishing these epoxies. The challenge is the material is a little soft once cured. Pop the cured extra out of a mix cup and if is flexible and bends without breaking. This is a good thing for a material going on wood that will move throughout its life. Not so good when trying to sand and polish. My observation is that softness makes it harder to take from semi-gloss to full high-gloss. It is alleged to be possible, personally using high tech abrasives and polishes I have yet to achieve a high-gloss.

5. My current in process experiments use a UV cure resin SolarEz solarez.com. Expense is like two part epoxy, with the added downside of some fairly nasty MEK and styrene fumes. If it works out I will be adding an organics blocking mask to my tool kit. I moved from my garage workshop to the carport to stop stinking up the house. I have also yet to get it to pour out like the two part systems. What is the upside? It cures much harder and I have high hopes for the polishing. And with UV cure instead of waiting hours (or adding more hardener and risking too short pot life) like two part systems with UV cure once you get the surface covered and level you take it into the sun and in two minutes it is cured. Yesterday I did a pair of mini-monitor boxes and I would have one curing in the sun while coating the other in the shade  cycling them back and forth doing all sides in an afternoon. I expect to try the level sanding and polishing tomorrow and will report back.

So there is the data dump on my experiences with high gloss. It is a bit of a unicorn hunt but I am determined to find out what it is like to ride a unicorn. Questions/comments welcomed.

ACHiPo

Re: My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable
« Reply #53 on: 5 Sep 2016, 11:29 pm »
Norman,
Thanks for your kind words and your comprehensive post! 

I have not taken any pictures, but I've made up a couple laminations of plywood and MDF to practice veneering and experiment with finishes.  I have an HVLP spray set up, but haven't used it yet, so will likely stick with things I've done successfully before.

I've done French polish successfully before on curly maple, and like working with shellac as it's repairable.  It is not, however, durable, and I'm not sure how things like Stylast will affect if there's an accident.  I've also built up gloss urethane finishes and sanded and buffed them to a mirror shine, but I wasn't always happy with the result, as it can look plastic-y.  I've done quite a bit with aniline dye and rubbed oil finishes--simple, easy to repair, and can be quite beautiful with highly figured wood, but I think I want something with a bit more "sizzle" for this piece.  I have not worked with lacquer, but have seen pretty impressive results from a spray can IF you "finish the finish" as you say with successively smoother abrasives and finally with automotive rubbing compounds (I wouldn't want to use a rotary polisher like the one in your picture--I much prefer a random-orbit buffer as it's less likely to damage the finish in the case of an accident).

Here's my progress today:

The glulam/CLD plinth is complete and curing!





I ended up drilling 1/4" holes all the way through the plinth to keep the layers aligned with dowels.  I should have done that at the beginning and it would have saved me quite a bit of time.

I played around a bit with the tonearms and veneer to visualize finishing the pan.  You can see the smallish pieces of veneer that will be used for practice veneering and finishing.



Here is a simple aniline-dyed, blonde shellac, and oil finished tonearm pod I did a few months ago.  It's made from curly maple with cocobolo veneer I resawed with my bandsaw:



...and a bigger piece that preceded my tonearm pod (no veneer):











ACHiPo

Re: My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable
« Reply #54 on: 11 Sep 2016, 01:00 am »
Feeling like it's starting to come together.  Got the sides veneered, as well as a few finish experiments started on my practice veneer piece.

















Tomorrow I veneer the top (saved the hardest for last) and finish the finish experiments.

ACHiPo

Re: My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable
« Reply #55 on: 11 Sep 2016, 11:35 pm »
Got all the veneering done!







Couldn't resist mocking it up.  I think I'll like it!




Experimented with finishes--shellac with/without aniline dye stain (two colors), oil, rattle can lacquer and water-based poly.  Conclusions:  The stain doesn't do jack on etimoe, so I can skip that step.  Shellac as a base definitely brings out the chatoyance so that will be in the final finish regimen.  The lacquer is ok, but I had more flaws (cloudy spots, etc.) than with the water-based poly.  I haven't gotten either of them to a gloss finish, but the water-based poly on shellac looks and buffed to a low sheen looks nice.  The cell phone photos don't do a great job of highlighting the differences.







ACHiPo

Re: My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable
« Reply #56 on: 13 Sep 2016, 02:30 am »
First coat of shellac on the plinth, and a couple quick coats of lacquer on the arm boards.





Guy 13

Re: My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable
« Reply #57 on: 13 Sep 2016, 02:35 am »
Thanks for all the nice pictures,
that will be a nice looking turntable.

Guy 13
on planet Vietnam.

Folsom

Re: My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable
« Reply #58 on: 13 Sep 2016, 02:53 am »
I'm enjoying this project! Cool stuff.

ACHiPo

Re: My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable
« Reply #59 on: 13 Sep 2016, 03:08 am »
Thanks Guy and Folsom.  Was wondering if everyone nodded off. :lol:  Also just a tad offended that no one complimented me on the rather fancy wainscoting and floral wallpaper in my shop.  :wink: Yes, there is a story there.