JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANiFESTO

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Elizabeth

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Re: JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANiFESTO
« Reply #20 on: 2 Sep 2017, 10:48 pm »
SO.. we should ALL dump our (wonderful and amazing) Bryston amplifiers...
And buy some self powered speakers???
Just what percentage of Bryston gross margin are amplifiers???

Sorry, I'll pass on that axiom.

I LOVE my Magnepan 3.6 and the Bryston amp driving them.
The likelihood I would buy some self powered speakers is ZERO.

I know the axiom is self powered vs not powered OF THE SAME BRAND, SIZE..
So it really is not claiming a amp and speaker combo SUCK.. But it reads a little like that. And since it is supposed to be ""THE RULE"" I would leave it out as being to small a percentage of use to be meaningful to most folks. Same thing for 'in wall'. What audiophile uses in wall???

James Tanner

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Re: JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANiFESTO
« Reply #21 on: 2 Sep 2017, 11:06 pm »
SO.. we should ALL dump our (wonderful and amazing) Bryston amplifiers...
And buy some self powered speakers???
Just what percentage of Bryston gross margin are amplifiers???

Sorry, I'll pass on that axiom.

I LOVE my Magnepan 3.6 and the Bryston amp driving them.
The likelihood I would buy some self powered speakers is ZERO.

I know the axiom is self powered vs not powered OF THE SAME BRAND, SIZE..
So it really is not claiming a amp and speaker combo SUCK.. But it reads a little like that. And since it is supposed to be ""THE RULE"" I would leave it out as being to small a percentage of use to be meaningful to most folks. Same thing for 'in wall'. What audiophile uses in wall???

Hi Elizabeth

At one time Magnepan allowed you to actively biamp their speakers (bass section) - (I had Tympani 4As and MG3.6's back then)  - I used our 10B electronic crossover back then and they sounded much better to me than the external passive crossover that came with them. 

I am simply stating that Active beats Passive if done on the same speakers properly. I am not trying to imply passive speakers do not sound great - but physics are physics.

Also our speakers are active using Bryston external amplifiers and a Bryston Electronic crossover so thankfully gross margins are maintained. :)

Many small Active speakers use cheap power chips rather than discrete power amplifier sections so be cautious of them.

james

witchdoctor

Re: JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANiFESTO
« Reply #22 on: 3 Sep 2017, 02:21 am »
SO.. we should ALL dump our (wonderful and amazing) Bryston amplifiers...
And buy some self powered speakers???
Just what percentage of Bryston gross margin are amplifiers???

Sorry, I'll pass on that axiom.

I LOVE my Magnepan 3.6 and the Bryston amp driving them.
The likelihood I would buy some self powered speakers is ZERO.

I know the axiom is self powered vs not powered OF THE SAME BRAND, SIZE..
So it really is not claiming a amp and speaker combo SUCK.. But it reads a little like that. And since it is supposed to be ""THE RULE"" I would leave it out as being to small a percentage of use to be meaningful to most folks. Same thing for 'in wall'. What audiophile uses in wall???

"Dump" seems a bit harsh but in the long run you will save $$$, space, and benefit from SQ as well. I have a passive desktop system which I love but I could have gotten a much better system for the same price by going active.
My HT uses 14 active speakers (actually 15 if you count the active sub) which are all internally biamped (no speaker cables needed). I love Bryston but I would need 28 channels of amplification to bi-amp 14 speakers  plus "miles" of speaker cables, that would not be possible for my budget or my space.





witchdoctor

Re: JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANiFESTO
« Reply #23 on: 3 Sep 2017, 02:51 am »
James, a Mini T or Mini A speakers internally biamped with soemthing like your powerpacks would be killer.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/bryston-powerpack-300-power-amplifier


James Tanner

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Re: JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANiFESTO
« Reply #24 on: 3 Sep 2017, 10:21 am »
James, a Mini T or Mini A speakers internally biamped with soemthing like your powerpacks would be killer.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/bryston-powerpack-300-power-amplifier

Hi,

Yes we looked at that and I even built a Mini T prototype using a similar module (2-2B Cubed channels) but it just gets too big and heavy when you have to include discrete circuits and linear transformers in the package.  That's why most of the active speakers out there limit themselves to power chips and switching power supplies.

james

JLM

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Re: JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANiFESTO
« Reply #25 on: 3 Sep 2017, 11:30 am »
Agree with your manifesto.

Active speakers (one channel of amplification connected directly to each driver using a low voltage crossover) is SUPERIOR over passive (typical home design) speakers.  Which is why my main speakers use a single driver and my alternate speakers are active studio monitors. 

Years ago auditioned Paradigm Studio 20s v.2 ($800/pair passive 2-way stand mounts) versus Paradigm Active 20s ($1600/pair same drivers/cabinet).  IT WAS NO CONTEST.  Greatly improved dynamics, flat frequency response (a revelation), unbelievably deep/full bass, with enhanced imaging.  Passersby thought we were listening to the Paradigm Studio 100s ($2200/pair floor standers), but the imaging was better.

Yet the Bryston approach, while perhaps ideal, is cumbersome and expensive.  Lots of cabling and amps, seemingly an immature - first generation solution that is a natural solution coming from an amplifier company.  For most listeners I think a self contained 2-way active plus sub(s) would be a better way to go.

James Tanner

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Re: JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANiFESTO
« Reply #26 on: 3 Sep 2017, 11:37 am »
Hi Folks,

Had a few people email me and asked about a better explanation of  Sound Power:

BRYSTON

Listening Rooms and Sound Power


BACKGROUND:

The two most critical parts of any loudspeaker system choice is the listening ‘ROOM’ and the loudspeakers ‘POLAR’ response. Recognizing how the room imposes its boundaries (floor, ceiling, walls) on the speaker and how that speaker radiates its energy (polar response) into a specific room is critical to the understanding of the overall performance of any speaker and it is no different for the Bryston loudspeakers.

When you are listening to a loudspeaker in a room you are always listening to a balance between the ‘Direct Sound’ and the ‘Reflected Sound’ from the boundaries of the room – this is called the ‘Power Response or Sound Power.’ It is that balance between direct and reflected energy which changes depending on the frequency radiation pattern (polar response) of the given speaker and the boundaries of the room the speaker is placed in. Dipoles, Bipolar, Omnipoles, Direct Radiators, Horns etc. all behave differently due to their specific radiation patterns and therefore exhibit different power responses in any specific room. Bryston has chosen a direct radiator approach in the design of our loudspeakers for numerous reasons but one critical reason is because we feel it is currently the best way to accomplish the correct balance between direct and reflected energy in real world listening rooms.

DIRECT and RELECTED SOUND:

The ‘direct sound’ is the sound radiating from the front of the loudspeaker and the ‘reflected sound’ is all the sound your ears perceive after the sound waves have interacted with all the different boundaries in the room. It is important given real world conditions that the on axis response and the off axis frequency response of a loudspeaker be as uniform as possible. This on and off axis characteristic is generally referred to as Polar response. The smoother and more uniform the on and off axis polar response of the speaker the better the tonal balance between the direct sound and the reflected sound will be. In other words, the reflected sound will have the same overall tonal balance and sonic characteristics as the direct sound if ‘on and off’ polar response is smooth and even. This approach also provides the optimum overall 3-dimensional soundstage presentation as well. The Bryston loudspeakers are a very wide dispersion design so the polar response is very flat on axis and very uniform all the way out to more than 45 degrees off axis in both directions from center to provide a very wide and even listening window.

LISTENING WINDOW and SOUND POWER:

In a loudspeaker the ‘listening window’ is an average of a front set of curves whereas the ‘sound power response’ is an average of all the curves right around the whole speaker.  What we actually hear is heavily weighted to be a balance between these two conditions.  The listening windows frequency response should be very linear (flat) across the entire audio band but the sound power should fall off by 8 – 10dB by the time you get to 10kHz (see diagram below) while still remaining linear in its march down from the bass frequencies.

Striking the proper balance between these two is extremely important to the sound of the speaker.  Keeping the listening window and the sound power both linear is not an easy task and is where most speakers fall down. 

Typical Model-T Passive Anechoic Response

Typically there is a lot of attention paid to the linearity of the direct on-axis frequency response by reviewers and knowledgeable consumers but it is really just one curve in the mix of 300 curves Bryston utilized in the design of our loudspeakers. 



DYNAMIC COMPRESSION

Another area that is very important with loudspeakers is a lack of dynamic compression. Dynamic compression or the inability to maintain composure under high playback levels plagues many loudspeakers. Brystons’ astonishing lack of compression brings a lifelike realism to dynamic events in music and movie soundtracks without introducing artifacts that might disrupt your enjoyment.



At left, note that the frequency response of our Bryston Model T speaker at a punishing 110dB is virtually identical to that of the speaker at a more common level of 90dB. 

"With most speakers you will see the frequency response start to suffer as volume levels increase. Not with Bryston speakers - this is astonishing performance regardless of price" (quote from review}

james


James Tanner

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Re: JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANiFESTO
« Reply #27 on: 3 Sep 2017, 11:46 am »
Agree with your manifesto.

Active speakers (one channel of amplification connected directly to each driver using a low voltage crossover) is SUPERIOR over passive (typical home design) speakers.  Which is why my main speakers use a single driver and my alternate speakers are active studio monitors. 

Years ago auditioned Paradigm Studio 20s v.2 ($800/pair passive 2-way stand mounts) versus Paradigm Active 20s ($1600/pair same drivers/cabinet).  IT WAS NO CONTEST.  Greatly improved dynamics, flat frequency response (a revelation), unbelievably deep/full bass, with enhanced imaging.  Passersby thought we were listening to the Paradigm Studio 100s ($2200/pair floor standers), but the imaging was better.

Yet the Bryston approach, while perhaps ideal, is cumbersome and expensive.  Lots of cabling and amps, seemingly an immature - first generation solution that is a natural solution coming from an amplifier company.  For most listeners I think a self contained 2-way active plus sub(s) would be a better way to go.

Hi JLM

Yes I agree that active systems with outboard amplifiers is cumbersome and expensive but I feel it is ultimately the correct approach if you really want to move forward in performance. So many of the things we do with our systems to improve the performance are sideway moves - active really is a legitamate way to move forward. Active systems have failed in the past due to these restrictions and I assume my goal of more acceptance of this approach will fail as well ... but I wanted to try.

One of the things I have done is to build dedicated 3 channel and 6 channel amplifiers for our speakers to try and reduce the clutter and also we have cable looms that are colour coded to help people set things up correctly.

james


witchdoctor

Re: JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANiFESTO
« Reply #28 on: 3 Sep 2017, 12:38 pm »
Thanks for raising the bar James :)

Joe Frances

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Re: JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANiFESTO
« Reply #29 on: 4 Sep 2017, 12:22 am »
Hi Joe

Yes I mean loudspeakers that do not have Passive crossover components in the signal path and the amplifiers are directly connected to the speaker drivers.

james

So therefore there is no need for a power amp then?

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Re: JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANiFESTO
« Reply #30 on: 4 Sep 2017, 12:41 am »
So therefore there is no need for a power amp then?

Hi Joe

You still need amplifiers - either built into the speaker or external to the speaker.

James

PRELUDE

Re: JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANiFESTO
« Reply #31 on: 4 Sep 2017, 04:16 pm »
Hi James,
Once, any manufacture thinks about putting an active system in the market, they know it better that it will fail because of the reasons we all know.
All these years I have talked hi-fi with people, only three people were enjoyable to talk with about active system. The three people are yourself and two friends which one is not with us anymore(he was a transistor designer) and the other one is a 86 years old gentleman. I do not think it is cumbersome because people doing more things to improve performance  and those things are nothing but waste of time or money and about 98% are subjective. I also disagree with being expensive because anything we would like to do correctly it would cost money either you want to make speakers or house or car. John's waveform mac 17 MSRP was ridiculously good but still failed! 
I know the love of doing this is so strong that makes you do it and I would like to wish the best for you. But market and consumers will be against you not with you.   

veloceleste

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Re: JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANiFESTO
« Reply #32 on: 4 Sep 2017, 06:46 pm »
How active systems are presented and their marketing is key to their sales success. There seems to be general agreement that active sounds better than passive and is the next level of improvement.  Perhaps a building block approach will make active systems more appealing for customers. Imagine a T-series speaker that is "active ready"; Three sets of binding posts with jumpers, internal passive crossover that can be easily bypassed when a customer is ready to purchase the active crossover.  The customer could start out 2 channel,
next go to passive bi-amping, and finally add the active  crossover and last two channels of amplification.  An upgrade path is created for the customer.  The customer can build their system as funds, space or whatever other constraints may have been a factor at the time purchase are removed.

witchdoctor

Re: JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANiFESTO
« Reply #33 on: 4 Sep 2017, 09:35 pm »
Hi James,
Once, any manufacture thinks about putting an active system in the market, they know it better that it will fail because of the reasons we all know.
All these years I have talked hi-fi with people, only three people were enjoyable to talk with about active system. The three people are yourself and two friends which one is not with us anymore(he was a transistor designer) and the other one is a 86 years old gentleman. I do not think it is cumbersome because people doing more things to improve performance  and those things are nothing but waste of time or money and about 98% are subjective. I also disagree with being expensive because anything we would like to do correctly it would cost money either you want to make speakers or house or car. John's waveform mac 17 MSRP was ridiculously good but still failed! 
I know the love of doing this is so strong that makes you do it and I would like to wish the best for you. But market and consumers will be against you not with you.

There are some very good active speakers in the pro market for a reasonable price. It seems you can a do lot correctly with upgrades in technology pushing prices lower. While the consumer market may be slow adopters the pro market is primarily using active speakers. I know Bryston serves the pro market as well and wouldn't be surprised if their active speakers start getting used for mixing. Go to any Guitar Center and you will find a lot of active speakers to audition at all price levels.

srb

Re: JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANiFESTO
« Reply #34 on: 4 Sep 2017, 09:59 pm »
I know Bryston serves the pro market as well and wouldn't be surprised if their active speakers start getting used for mixing.

True, but I doubt very few studios would be interested in active monitors with external crossovers and amplifiers.

They have more than enough assorted components in their racks already and likely wouldn't want to mess with additional outboard equipment as 99% of the active studio monitors they're already usomg are self-contained with digital crossover and amplification mounted in the speaker enclosure (and many of them already capable of stunning performance).

For the home audio aficianado, having a more complicated gaggle of external boxes and wires ..... well that's a different story.  ;)

Steve

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Re: JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANiFESTO
« Reply #35 on: 5 Sep 2017, 12:52 am »
How active systems are presented and their marketing is key to their sales success. There seems to be general agreement that active sounds better than passive and is the next level of improvement.  Perhaps a building block approach will make active systems more appealing for customers. Imagine a T-series speaker that is "active ready"; Three sets of binding posts with jumpers, internal passive crossover that can be easily bypassed when a customer is ready to purchase the active crossover.  The customer could start out 2 channel,
next go to passive bi-amping, and finally add the active  crossover and last two channels of amplification.  An upgrade path is created for the customer.  The customer can build their system as funds, space or whatever other constraints may have been a factor at the time purchase are removed.

Hi

Yes if you buy the Model T Signature it allows the upgrade from 2 channel to Active.

James

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Re: JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANiFESTO
« Reply #36 on: 5 Sep 2017, 12:54 am »
True, but I doubt very few studios would be interested in active monitors with external crossovers and amplifiers.

They have more than enough assorted components in their racks already and likely wouldn't want to mess with additional outboard equipment as 99% of the active studio monitors they're already usomg are self-contained with digital crossover and amplification mounted in the speaker enclosure (and many of them already capable of stunning performance).

For the home audio aficianado, having a more complicated gaggle of external boxes and wires ..... well that's a different story.  ;)

Steve

We do have some studios using Active Middle T's.

James

witchdoctor

Re: JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANiFESTO
« Reply #37 on: 5 Sep 2017, 01:26 am »
True, but I doubt very few studios would be interested in active monitors with external crossovers and amplifiers.

They have more than enough assorted components in their racks already and likely wouldn't want to mess with additional outboard equipment as 99% of the active studio monitors they're already usomg are self-contained with digital crossover and amplification mounted in the speaker enclosure (and many of them already capable of stunning performance).

For the home audio aficianado, having a more complicated gaggle of external boxes and wires ..... well that's a different story.  ;)

Steve

Actually some of Bryston's competitors in the pro market are already offering monitors with outboard amplification and crossovers, very successfully too. Do a search on the JBL M2.

JLM

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Re: JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANiFESTO
« Reply #38 on: 5 Sep 2017, 10:22 am »
Careful to differentiate between recording, mixing, and mastering functions/studios.  99% of those professionals use active speakers.  Their priority is the speaker itself, not the amps used.  Home listeners keep wanting to tweak performance of their gear (while neglecting vastly more important issues, but that's a different topic). 

Recording and mixing studios are typically small.  Near-field listening with speakers on a shelf/desktop.  No room for tall 3-ways or 6 channels of external amplification and no desire to add all the wiring needed for all those external amps on top of what they're already dealing with.  And the good workers often bring their own monitors, so portability is an important consideration.  So smaller active 2-way monitors dominate recording/mixing studios.

Mastering studios are typically setup in larger highly treated rooms with more of a far field setup.  That's where 2-way and 3-way floor standing speakers are used professionally.  Controlled directivity, low thermal compression, and deeper bass output are added to the criteria for good speakers under these conditions.  And yes, the JBL M2 does use external amplification, partially because Harmon International owns both JBL and Crown, but also partially because space and wiring are of less concern.

Nick77

Re: JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANiFESTO
« Reply #39 on: 5 Sep 2017, 12:43 pm »
Sorry, I don't understand why active speakers are better than passive speakers?  I am a traditional two-channel system fan, and I don't get the rational for preferring active speakers from a sound quality perspective.  Being something of a neophyte in the area of new audio technology, I assume you mean powered speakers are better than non-powered.  Thanks.

I agree, I am not going to try convince a newbie they have to buy 6 amplifiers or don't waste your time. ??

Personally I haven't compared the two but certainly think quality components in passive is a must and viable option.