[James Tanner]

JT’s STEREO MUSIC LISTENING MANIFESTO
September 2017

Hi Folks,

I thought I would like to put together some tenants of what issues should be taken into account if we wanted to educate others about the proper way to set up a quality audio system to listen to stereo music.

So my contribution so far:

I will just use point form for now but will expand on the subject as we go.

SPEAKERS:

1.   The room/speaker interface is 70% of the potential results achievable.

2.   Proper speaker placement away from walls and boundaries is always desirable.

3.   Generally the larger the room the great the ability to reduce the dreaded bass standing-wave problems

4.   In wall speakers DO NOT work.

5.    Room equalization should not be used above 200Hz.

6.   The distance between the speakers and a centrally located listener should be roughly the same.

7.   Well-designed active speakers (assuming the same manufacture and model) are better than passive speakers

8.   Room treatments should be used judiciously.

9.   Wide dispersion speakers with excellent Sound Power response work better in real rooms.

[rollo]

  James you forgot filling the room with Bryston.


charles

[srb]

4.   In wall speakers DO NOT work.

I would more expect you to say that they don't perform as well as On-Wall or better yet free-standing enclosures, but if they actually perform so poorly as to say they "DO NOT work" perhaps the Model TIW In-Wall Loudspeaker should just get cut from the lineup and only sell the On-Wall for constrained space and/or aesthetic applications?

[James Tanner]

I would more expect you to say that they don't perform as well as On-Wall or better yet free-standing enclosures, but if they actually perform so poorly as to say they "DO NOT work" perhaps the Model TIW In-Wall Loudspeaker should just get cut from the lineup and only sell the On-Wall for constrained space and/or aesthetic applications?

Hi

That's a good idea - it would fit in better with my philosophy. In-walls simply do not work due to their extremely poor polar response - I will see if the powers that be will agree.

james

[Raimo]

I agree, but Nr2 depends on how the speakers are made to perform. My speakers should be close to a well damped wall.
Nr6; according to my speaker maker you should measure the distance between the tweeters and take that distance x 1,18.
Take the result and measure that from the tweetewr plane.
If you have 3 meters between the tweeters you should sit 3,54 meters from the tweeters (mesured from the middle between the speakers).
Then you should toe in the speakers towards the listening position.
I dont know if i can explain this in english well enogh for people to understand .
In Sweden we had a speaker maker named Stig Carlsson, he made speakers from the fifties to the nineties and all of them should stand on the floor directly gainst the wall with no dampening (his latest models had dampening built into the speakers).
It worked really well.
https://www.carlssonplanet.com/hogtalare/carlssonhogtalarnas-historia/
By the way i dont understand the word under Nr8; judiciously, newer heard it before

[brother love]

Respectfully, unless I am missing a play on words; I think you mean "Manifesto". Good info by the way.

[srb]

That's a good idea - it would fit in better with my philosophy. In walls simply do not work due to their extremely poor polar response - I will see if the powers that be will agree.

Now to play Devil's Advocate .....

I'm sure there are some scenarios / customers whose decision for a particular location might come down to either stealth flush mount in-wall speakers or no speakers at all.  And in the end, some music, even if severely compromised, is usually better than no music!

I guess it will come down to sales statistics and whether it's even profitable to maintain that model.  Some number of people are buying in-wall speakers and if not from you, from another manufacturer.

But perhaps the product page ad copy is a little overzealous in promoting unrealistic expectations.

Steve

[James Tanner]

Respectfully, unless I am missing a play on words; I think you mean "Manifesto". Good info by the way.

Thanks - my wourst subject in school next to electronixs and speeker desigen was spellling!

james

[James Tanner]

I agree, but Nr2 depends on how the speakers are made to perform. My speakers should be close to a well damped wall.
Nr6; according to my speaker maker you should measure the distance between the tweeters and take that distance x 1,18.
Take the result and measure that from the tweetewr plane.
If you have 3 meters between the tweeters you should sit 3,54 meters from the tweeters (mesured from the middle between the speakers).
Then you should toe in the speakers towards the listening position.
I dont know if i can explain this in english well enogh for people to understand .
In Sweden we had a speaker maker named Stig Carlsson, he made speakers from the fifties to the nineties and all of them should stand on the floor directly gainst the wall with no dampening (his latest models had dampening built into the speakers).
It worked really well.
https://www.carlssonplanet.com/hogtalare/carlssonhogtalarnas-historia/
By the way i dont understand the word under Nr8; judiciously, newer heard it before

Hi

Interesting.

I have not heard those speakers but Snell speakers had a similar concept.  But no matter how hard I tried I just find speakers against a wall totally collapses the soundstage.

james

[James Tanner]

By the way i dont understand the word under Nr8; judiciously, newer heard it before

Hi Raimo

Sorry - ju·di·cious·ly

adverb - with good judgment or sense.

[James Tanner]

I agree, but Nr2 depends on how the speakers are made to perform. My speakers should be close to a well damped wall.
Nr6; according to my speaker maker you should measure the distance between the tweeters and take that distance x 1,18.
Take the result and measure that from the tweetewr plane.
If you have 3 meters between the tweeters you should sit 3,54 meters from the tweeters (mesured from the middle between the speakers).
Then you should toe in the speakers towards the listening position.

Hi

Yes I agree the speaker designer knows best what type of dispersion or polar response his speakers have. 

The Bryston speakers are an extremely wide dispersion design in both the horizontal and vertical planes so the distance can be increase to a full equal-lateral triangle without the loss of the centre image.

james

[James Tanner]

Now to play Devil's Advocate .....

I'm sure there are some scenarios / customers whose decision for a particular location might come down to either stealth flush mount in-wall speakers or no speakers at all.  And in the end, some music, even if severely compromised, is usually better than no music!

I guess it will come down to sales statistics and whether it's even profitable to maintain that model.  Some number of people are buying in-wall speakers and if not from you, from another manufacturer.

But perhaps the product page ad copy is a little overzealous in promoting unrealistic expectations.

Steve

Hi Steve

Yes I am trying to promote the fact that the physics of speaker placement outweigh the motivations of the custom decorators of today - they have ruined our hobby and turned speakers into holes in the wall that make noise Its a real travesty!

james

[Raimo]

Hi

Interesting.

I have not heard those speakers but Snell speakers had a similar concept.  But no matter how hard I tried I just find speakers against a wall totally collapses the soundstage.

james

They are not common outside of Sweden, but in the right situation they can make the wall disapeare.
Some people love them and some dont, i like them alot.

[Raimo]

Hi Raimo

Sorry - ju·di·cious·ly

adverb - with good judgment or sense.

Ah, now i understand and totally agree .

[glynnw]

When I first started at Telarc as a salesperson I was invited to a meeting with their ad agency.  I showed them an ad I thought sucked - some company's speaker ad of speakers in a modern beautiful room with no speaker wires.  I was not invited to subsequent meetings.

[Joe Frances]

Sorry, I don't understand why active speakers are better than passive speakers?  I am a traditional two-channel system fan, and I don't get the rational for preferring active speakers from a sound quality perspective.  Being something of a neophyte in the area of new audio technology, I assume you mean powered speakers are better than non-powered.  Thanks.

[James Tanner]

Sorry, I don't understand why active speakers are better than passive speakers?  I am a traditional two-channel system fan, and I don't get the rational for preferring active speakers from a sound quality perspective.  Being something of a neophyte in the area of new audio technology, I assume you mean powered speakers are better than non-powered.  Thanks.

Hi Joe

Yes I mean loudspeakers that do not have Passive crossover components in the signal path and the amplifiers are directly connected to the speaker drivers.

james

[Mag]

Hi

Yes I agree the speaker designer knows best what type of dispersion or polar response his speakers have. 

The Bryston speakers are an extremely wide dispersion design in both the horizontal and vertical planes so the distance can be increase to a full equal-lateral triangle without the loss of the centre image.

james

In my humble opinion I don't believe you or the audio world knows just how good the Model T speakers are. Of coarse I don't have your experience and exposure to all the different speakers that are out there. My exposure has been limited so I don't know If what I'm hearing from the Model T, which I've had for 4 years now, works with other speakers.

Basically I have the speakers reflecting off my back concrete wall, with slight toe in, and the sound projects off the front wall with a convincing phantom image soundstage. The fact that it works in my room leads me to believe the Model T is an incredible speaker. And I have all kinds of junk in the room.

I believe it could possibly change conventional listening if it could be implemented in a larger room. I would describe it as sound projection similar to seeing a large screen at the movie theater. So that means you could sit anywhere between the speakers, not limited to sitting in the sweetspot as the sound projects off the front wall.

[James Tanner]

Hi Mag,

I know how good the Bryston speakers are and honestly I would put them up against any speaker using the same design philosophy regardless of price. There has been a huge amount of research in this area and the reason the Bryston Model T's speakers work so well in your room is in fact because they are designed to provide as wide and even a polar response as current technology allows.

When you are listening to a loudspeaker in a room you are always listening to a balance between the ‘Direct Sound’ and the ‘Reflected Sound’ from the boundaries of the room – this is called the ‘Power Response or Sound Power.’ It is that balance between direct and reflected energy which changes depending on the frequency radiation pattern (polar response) of the given speaker and the boundaries of the room the speaker is placed in. Dipoles, Bipolar, Omnipoles, Direct Radiators, Horns etc. all behave differently due to their specific radiation patterns and therefore exhibit different power responses in any specific room. Bryston has chosen a direct radiator approach in the design of our loudspeakers for numerous reasons but one critical reason is because we feel it is currently the best way to accomplish the correct balance between direct and reflected energy in real world listening rooms based on lots of research into the way real speakers behave in real rooms.

What the ear hears is a mix of this direct and reflected energy and if the off-axis polar response of the speaker is very flat and uniform relative to the on axis the reflected energy has the same tonal balance as the on-axis energy which provides for a huge sound stage.

james
 

[witchdoctor]

Hi Steve

Yes I am trying to promote the fact that the physics of speaker placement outweigh the motivations of the custom decorators of today - they have ruined our hobby and turned speakers into holes in the wall that make noise Its a real travesty!

james

I like your on wall speakers, easy to place, good price. It seems you cracked the code on that problem.