Dr. AIX goes all analytical on DSD

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Atlplasma

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Dr. AIX goes all analytical on DSD
« on: 14 May 2013, 10:08 pm »
It makes for interesting reading. I like my DSD recording but can appreciate that PCM is the more evolved technology. In any case, some interesting articles and posts at http://www.realhd-audio.com/?cat=45.

ted_b

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Re: Dr. AIX goes all analytical on DSD
« Reply #1 on: 14 May 2013, 10:41 pm »
Keep in mind that Mark is very pro PCM, as his whole AIX business is based on it.  I find huge misinformation in the article/interview, frankly.

Hiro has done a good job pointing them out here:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/dsd-or-not-dsd-16093/#post225818

Phil A

Re: Dr. AIX goes all analytical on DSD
« Reply #2 on: 15 May 2013, 12:01 am »
Mark is anti-DSD.  I bought one of his videos/hi-rez audios at the last Capital Audiofest (which I heard in another room) and I got the 15 minute speech about it.  I still like AIX recordings and frankly don't care what format I get.  Good music and well recorded hi-rez is what I care about. He has been saying the same thing for years.  I really don't get the my format is better than your format thing.  I don't care he thinks PCM is better and if I get something worthwhile, I am not going to care to change anyone's opinion or preferences.  It was so interesting the hey day of DVD-A and SACD.  If you read posts by some people you would think one is Hi-Rez and the other is a bad MP3.  It got silly.

Atlplasma

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Re: Dr. AIX goes all analytical on DSD
« Reply #3 on: 15 May 2013, 01:22 am »
So much of the quality of the recording comes down to the skill of the engineer, don't you think. Ted, thanks for the link to Hiro's post. Great information.

Phil A

Re: Dr. AIX goes all analytical on DSD
« Reply #4 on: 15 May 2013, 02:02 am »
So much of the quality of the recording comes down to the skill of the engineer, don't you think. Ted, thanks for the link to Hiro's post. Great information.

Absolutely :thumb: I have CDs that are recorded so well, I've been asked if they were SACDs.  Format does not indicate recording quality

Russtafarian

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Re: Dr. AIX goes all analytical on DSD
« Reply #5 on: 15 May 2013, 07:06 pm »
Full disclosure: I've known Mark Waldrep for years, been to his studio a few times, and hang out with him now and then at various audio events.  He has strong opinions and he has good reasons for them.  And I own a Benchmark DAC2. 

I'm a fan of DSD because I have nearly 500 recordings in the format and I want to hear them at their best.  I get the sense that DSD is somewhat like vinyl playback in that the engineering is a bit dated and kludgy, but it works and it ends up sounding really good. 

That said, I found Mark's interview with Benchmark's John Siau pretty interesting, even though it has an anti-DSD slant.

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=74

As a recording engineer, Mark is concerned with digital production as well as digital delivery of music.  And he and John are right that DSD is limited compared to PCM in terms of recording/mixing/mastering capabilities.  24/96 PCM gives Mark a more flexible production tool that easily ports to an industry standard hi-rez delivery format.  I see his point.

I think John's view of DSD is a little more balanced than Mark's.  John understands the production limitations of DSD but recognizes its potential as an accepted and growing delivery format for hi-rez audio.  So he put DSD playback capability into his new DAC. 

One thing that struck me from the article was how DSD was developed in the mid to late '90s as a superior codec to 16 bit PCM given the 1 bit chip architecture they had to work with at the time.  It could be that by the time multi-bit chips capable of 24 bit PCM got to the mass market, Sony felt they were too far along the DSD/SACD hardware/software roll out cycle to pull back.  If Sony hadn't been in such a pissing match with Panasonic and Toshiba over setting the DVD-V standard, stereo 24/96 PCM on DVD might have become the high-rez music standard and DSD/SACD would have stayed buried in a Sony R&D laboratory.

Russ



wisnon

Re: Dr. AIX goes all analytical on DSD
« Reply #6 on: 15 May 2013, 07:26 pm »
Keep in mind that Mark is very pro PCM, as his whole AIX business is based on it.  I find huge misinformation in the article/interview, frankly.

Hiro has done a good job pointing them out here:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/dsd-or-not-dsd-16093/#post225818

BINGO!!!!

rhandmj

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Re: Dr. AIX goes all analytical on DSD
« Reply #7 on: 16 May 2013, 02:53 am »
Interestingly, the argument many years ago against 'digital filterless' DACS - such as my Flatfish/Progression combo from 47 Labs - is that without the filter there is a concentration of ultrasonic noise that is not only sonically ruinous but can damage tweeters. The argument raged between engineering types and music listeners who heard such DACs and liked what they were hearing.

It seems to me this same debate has relevance here as there are the same arguments about high frequency noise in DSD, and many experienced listeners who like what they hear regardless of the technical arguments.

I tend to fall into the latter. I have some niggling doubts about SACD, and to a lesser extent with DSD - a softness, a bit of a hazy laziness to the sound. Yet, I still find it exceptionally good and really excellent DSD transfers and recordings in my listening are a different flavor, but don't take a back seat to superb 24/192.

wisnon

Re: Dr. AIX goes all analytical on DSD
« Reply #8 on: 16 May 2013, 04:34 pm »
Yup,

Who doesnt like good ice cream of most flavours? :P

FullRangeMan

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Re: Dr. AIX goes all analytical on DSD
« Reply #9 on: 16 May 2013, 04:42 pm »
Keep in mind that Mark is very pro PCM, as his whole AIX business is based on it.  I find huge misinformation in the article/interview, frankly.

Hiro has done a good job pointing them out here:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/dsd-or-not-dsd-16093/#post225818
I unknow an commercial studio member or owner that praise DSD or even SACD, as all of they hate both formats.
Hence they work only with PCM and DSD equips are more expensive than PCM stuff, more the fact that they dont know how to mix and edit DSD recordings.

wisnon

Re: Dr. AIX goes all analytical on DSD
« Reply #10 on: 16 May 2013, 07:01 pm »
Fullrangerman

The Lampi man was agnostic. I pushed him to develop his own DSD Dac and NOW he is raving about the prototype, as seen on Facebook. No Dac chip, just tube filtration/RFI shielding. I expect it to be da bomb.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Dr. AIX goes all analytical on DSD
« Reply #11 on: 16 May 2013, 08:56 pm »

doctorcilantro

Re: Dr. AIX goes all analytical on DSD
« Reply #12 on: 27 May 2013, 06:57 am »
A new DSD DAC is always welcome:
http://www.lampizator.eu/newdac/lampizator/DSD_DAC.html

I'm interested, and I think a remote control option is doable, but what about gain? Could I go direct to amp?

AlvinLee

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Re: Dr. AIX goes all analytical on DSD
« Reply #13 on: 24 Oct 2014, 01:24 am »
Phil A. Would be so kind as to post a list of the CDs you have found that are well recorded?
Thanks,
Al

FullRangeMan

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Re: Dr. AIX goes all analytical on DSD
« Reply #14 on: 24 Oct 2014, 02:21 pm »
I'm interested, and I think a remote control option is doable, but what about gain? Could I go direct to amp?
Sorry for the late reply, I havent see this post before.
Anyway I cant help much, you would ask the manufacturer to a correct guidance.

Tyson

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Re: Dr. AIX goes all analytical on DSD
« Reply #15 on: 24 Oct 2014, 06:02 pm »
Given the same master, I find that DSD encoding trumps 24bit every time.  Not sure why it is, but I find more depth to the soundstage (and more air in general), along with less dynamic compression.  24 bit sounds more punchy and less "lazy" - that's what compression sounds like.

Russell Dawkins

Re: Dr. AIX goes all analytical on DSD
« Reply #16 on: 24 Oct 2014, 06:16 pm »
My understanding is that the reason for existence of the DSD recording format is its use as an archival format.
The reason given almost 30 years ago when Sony developed it was that they had this ticking time bomb of many thousands of hours of master tapes in the Columbia vaults they inherited when they acquired Columbia, which needed to be archived in the most future-proof way. DSD has the advantage, apparently, of being convertible to any PCM format without the degradation of format conversion which accompanies any conversion within the PCM realm. The idea is that this allows for the greatest number of options in the future, not knowing what digital format ultimately will prevail.

S Clark

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Re: Dr. AIX goes all analytical on DSD
« Reply #17 on: 24 Oct 2014, 06:30 pm »
Phil A. Would be so kind as to post a list of the CDs you have found that are well recorded?
Thanks,
Al
There is a huge thread just on this topic
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=63936.0

Phil A

Re: Dr. AIX goes all analytical on DSD
« Reply #18 on: 24 Oct 2014, 08:04 pm »
Phil A. Would be so kind as to post a list of the CDs you have found that are well recorded?
Thanks,
Al

There's so many - below is a few (and I don't necessarily think that every single cut is well recorded)

Joan Baez – ‘Baez Sings Dylan’
Patricia Barber’s hybrid SACDs on Mobile Fidelity
Cristina Branco – ‘Ulisses’
Jim Brock – ‘Troppic Affair’
Jonatha Brooke – ‘Live’
Jackson Brown – ‘Solo Acoustic Volume 1’
Rosanne Cash – ’10 Song Demo’
Rosanne Cash – ‘The List’
Rosanne Cash – ‘Rules of Travel’
Kasey Chambers – ‘Barricades and Brickwalls’
David Chesky – ‘Club De Sol’
Nat King Cole – Analogue Productions hybrid SACDs
Jamie Cullum – ‘Twentysomething’
Jamie Cullum – ‘The Pursuit’
Al DiMeola – ‘Kiss My Axe’ (2nd cut is something I like to use for demo)
David Elias – ‘The Window’  hybrid SACD
Duke Elington – ‘Digital Duke’
Arthur Fiedler + Boston Symph – ‘George Gershwin’
Patty Griffin – ‘1000 Kisses’
George Harrison – ‘The Early Takes Volume 1’
Michael Jackson – ‘Thriller’
Eilen Jewell – ‘Queen of the Minor Key’
Elton John – ‘Elton John’ hybrid SACD
Keb Mo – ‘Keb Mo’ Mobile Fidelity hybrid SACD
Diana Krall – ‘The Girl in the Other Room’
Alison Krauss – ‘New Favorite’
Aimee Mann – ‘Lost in Space’ Mobile Fidelity hybrid SACD
Keiko Matsui – ‘Moyo’
Sara Mclachlan – ‘Surfacing’
Glenn Miller Orchestra – ‘In the Digital Mood’
Joni Mitchell – ‘Shine’
O-Zone Percussion Group – ‘La Bamba’
Fionn Regan – ‘The End of History’
Sara K – ‘Made in the Shade’ 
Cat Stevens – ‘Tea for the Tillerman’  Analogue Productions hybrid SACD
Vandaveer – ‘Divide and Conquer’ – like this cut - http://vimeo.com/4237641
Jennifer Warnes – ‘Famous Blue Raincoat’
Jennifer Warnes – ‘The Well’ hybrid SACD

strat95

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Re: Dr. AIX goes all analytical on DSD
« Reply #19 on: 26 Oct 2014, 01:38 am »
There's so many - below is a few (and I don't necessarily think that every single cut is well recorded)

Joan Baez – ‘Baez Sings Dylan’
Patricia Barber’s hybrid SACDs on Mobile Fidelity
Cristina Branco – ‘Ulisses’
Jim Brock – ‘Troppic Affair’
Jonatha Brooke – ‘Live’
Jackson Brown – ‘Solo Acoustic Volume 1’
Rosanne Cash – ’10 Song Demo’
Rosanne Cash – ‘The List’
Rosanne Cash – ‘Rules of Travel’
Kasey Chambers – ‘Barricades and Brickwalls’
David Chesky – ‘Club De Sol’
Nat King Cole – Analogue Productions hybrid SACDs
Jamie Cullum – ‘Twentysomething’
Jamie Cullum – ‘The Pursuit’
Al DiMeola – ‘Kiss My Axe’ (2nd cut is something I like to use for demo)
David Elias – ‘The Window’  hybrid SACD
Duke Elington – ‘Digital Duke’
Arthur Fiedler + Boston Symph – ‘George Gershwin’
Patty Griffin – ‘1000 Kisses’
George Harrison – ‘The Early Takes Volume 1’
Michael Jackson – ‘Thriller’
Eilen Jewell – ‘Queen of the Minor Key’
Elton John – ‘Elton John’ hybrid SACD
Keb Mo – ‘Keb Mo’ Mobile Fidelity hybrid SACD
Diana Krall – ‘The Girl in the Other Room’
Alison Krauss – ‘New Favorite’
Aimee Mann – ‘Lost in Space’ Mobile Fidelity hybrid SACD
Keiko Matsui – ‘Moyo’
Sara Mclachlan – ‘Surfacing’
Glenn Miller Orchestra – ‘In the Digital Mood’
Joni Mitchell – ‘Shine’
O-Zone Percussion Group – ‘La Bamba’
Fionn Regan – ‘The End of History’
Sara K – ‘Made in the Shade’ 
Cat Stevens – ‘Tea for the Tillerman’  Analogue Productions hybrid SACD
Vandaveer – ‘Divide and Conquer’ – like this cut - http://vimeo.com/4237641
Jennifer Warnes – ‘Famous Blue Raincoat’
Jennifer Warnes – ‘The Well’ hybrid SACD

+1 on Al Di Meola's Kiss My Axe.  I've been using it as a demo for a few years now.