AudioCircle

Industry Circles => Bryston Limited => Topic started by: drummermitchell on 13 Nov 2010, 03:23 pm

Title: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: drummermitchell on 13 Nov 2010, 03:23 pm
I see the new speaker cables are up on the Bryston site.
What is the difference between Bryston's other 9awg.cable and the new cable(besides the jacket).
Tried finding the thread but :scratch:.
Must be a Q for James,thanks.
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: James Tanner on 13 Nov 2010, 04:07 pm
Hi Don,

The old cable was a twin lead side by side so given it's different geometry it has different electrical characteristics than the new cable. New Cable is 4 conductors twisted to provide very low self-inductance.

MEMO: To all Bryston Customers
SUBJECT: Bryston SC-4 Speaker Cable


Bryston is pleased to announce the introduction of a Bryston Speaker cable.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=38536)


The Amplifier/Speaker interface is a 'low impedance' connection. Therefore, in a speaker cable you are looking for low 'self inductance' as opposed to 'low capacitance' required in the RCA or XLR analogue interconnect. For speaker cables we use a stranded 9-gauge linear crystal copper terminated if required with 'Heavily Gold plated' Spade lugs or ‘Expandable Banana’ plugs specially made for Bryston.

A speaker cable should have very low series resistance (R), and low series inductance (L), while shunt capacitance (C), is relatively unimportant in this low impedance, high current application. Shielding is almost a non-issue in speaker cables as signal levels are very large and circuit impedances very low. Speaker cables, however, should be kept as short as possible to minimize power losses and the associated dynamic compression of the music signal. If a choice must be made as to which of your cables should be made longer, always let the additional length be taken up with your interconnects.

The Bryston 9-gauge speaker cable utilizes four multi-strand conductors of OFC copper with advanced insulation. Bryston SC-4 speaker cable provides accurate signal transfer and an ideal match to any Bryston amplifier. It provides power and control for maximum performance especially over long lengths. The SC-4 employs twisted combined opposing conductors (red and white) to positive and (black/gray) to negative for very low self inductance and resistance. Also the cable can easily be configured for utilization in Bi-Wired applications. 


Charcoal jacket; 9.5mm (.375”) diameter
Resistance .0008 ohms/ft                             
Capacitance 70pF/ft                                       
Inductance  .2 uH (microhenrys) /ft
9-gauge
In-wall rated - available in 100 Meter (330 ft) spools

Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: drummermitchell on 13 Nov 2010, 08:12 pm
Here we go again,I'm on the phone to Mellissa monday morning.
I have to have 3,RCL,surrounds,hmmmm I'll think about that later.I'll check the price,maybe I can do all 5.I guess that was later :lol: :o.
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: 95Dyna on 15 Nov 2010, 07:07 pm
Hi James,

Are these cables pliable?  My current cables are stiff and difficult to work with in the tight space behind my 7's.  It makes a difference as to whether I use spades or bananas.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: James Tanner on 15 Nov 2010, 07:08 pm
Hi James,

Are these cables pliable?  My current cables are stiff and difficult to work with in the tight space behind my 7's.  It makes a difference as to whether I use spades or bananas.

Thanks.


Hi - I would say 'medium' on the pliable scale.

james
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: jneutron on 15 Nov 2010, 08:19 pm
Charcoal jacket; 9.5mm (.375”) diameter
Resistance .0008 ohms/ft                             
Capacitance 70pF/ft                                       
Inductance  .09 uH (microhenrys) /ft
9-gauge
In-wall rated - available in 100 Meter (330 ft) spools

James,

Are you sure about those measurements?  Something is not correct.

How did you measure the inductance?

Cheers, John
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: James Tanner on 15 Nov 2010, 09:15 pm
James,

Are you sure about those measurements?  Something is not correct.

How did you measure the inductance?

Cheers, John


Hi John,

Got it from the manufacturer - what do you see as an issue and I will ask.

james
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: jneutron on 15 Nov 2010, 09:36 pm
Hi John,

Got it from the manufacturer - what do you see as an issue and I will ask.

james

The LC product is too high.

LC=1034 EDC, L in nH/ft, C in pf/ft, EDC is effective dielectric coefficient.

Your EDC is 6.09.  I'd expect it to be in the 2 to 4 range, depending on the insulation thickness.

Cheers, John




Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: drummermitchell on 16 Nov 2010, 12:17 am
Don't know anything about specs,but if they are a step up from the older version,then were good as I liked the first version of speaker cable.Made the call and ordered 3X2 meters for my fronts.

Electricians here at 6:00PM to connect my 2X240 Torus,I helped out pulling 8/3AWG lumex X2 thru my drop ceiling 50ft.runs+one 20a dedicated line :thumb:.
TUNES TONIGHT :hyper:,.sorry it's been a few weeks without music,3 to be exact.
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Speedskater on 16 Nov 2010, 01:27 pm
With a effective dielectric coefficient like that, these cables are probably not the best choice for microwave signals.
But then, they are speaker cables.
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: jneutron on 16 Nov 2010, 02:00 pm
With a effective dielectric coefficient like that, these cables are probably not the best choice for microwave signals.
But then, they are speaker cables.
Actually, the EDC has nothing to do with the suitability of a cable over any frequency band, it does not represent any loss term.

It is the simple relationship between the inductance of a cable and the capacitance.  The equation I used is the first thing I use when specs for a cable are given, as sometimes the EDC result can indicate an error in the measurements.  Since inductance is typically the hardest to measure accurately, it is usually the first thing questioned should EDC be wacky.

The velocity of propagation is V = 1/sqr(EDC).  On occasion, someoone's specs will give an EDC less than 1, which is superluminal of course, and obviously in error.

High EDC's generally mean extreme capacitance, or lousy lousy inductance per foot, so high EDC also gives a warning sign.

Cheers, John
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 16 Nov 2010, 02:08 pm
Gents, don't get too obsessed about the specs.  We tried lots of cables in different price range and specs means nothing.  Let's let our ears do the judging.  :)

James, can't wait for new Bryston speaker cables.   8)
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: jneutron on 16 Nov 2010, 02:12 pm
Gents, don't get too obsessed about the specs.  Let's let our ears do the judging.  :)

Nobody's obsessing over specs.  The vendor felt it necessary to provide specs, and I have asked him about the accuracy of the numbers being given.

If the numbers are indeed inaccurate, I am very capable of providing guidance so that correct measurements can be taken.

Cheers, John
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 16 Nov 2010, 02:16 pm
Got it.  Thanks for the clarification. 

Once you have the correct measurements, where does that take you as far as music goes ?  :lol:

Nobody's obsessing over specs.  The vendor felt it necessary to provide specs, and I have asked him about the accuracy of the numbers being given.

If the numbers are indeed inaccurate, I am very capable of providing guidance so that correct measurements can be taken.

Cheers, John
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: jneutron on 16 Nov 2010, 02:28 pm
Got it.  Thanks for the clarification. 

Once you have the correct measurements, where does that take you as far as music goes ?  :lol:

An interestingly leading question.

If you have not followed the thread on "path", a quick synopsis..

The characteristic impedance of a speaker cable driving a wildy varying load, will affect the settling time of the signal being delivered to the speaker.  This comes from simple transmission line theory and measurement.  This settling time will swing as much as 10 times the measured capability of humans perception.

This effect is not intuitive to most.

Many misconceptions exist out there, many websites by "technical" people are abysmally incorrect in the theory.

So do the specs matter?  Yes, they do.  Should anyone ignore their ears and go with specs?  No.

Can I categorically state how specific parameters will sound with a specific amp and specific speakers?  No.  That dataset does not yet exist, as prior to my posting the information, the possibility of causation/correlation to the L/C numbers was tenuous; the relationship between cable Z and speaker Z was unknown.

I'll put a graph up in a few, so I can explain a bit more.

edit: already had a graph up of the type I was thinking of, so I'll use it.

This graph depicts the tradeoff between L and C for all cables.  To wit, this particular one is of a coaxial braid pair, so there is no internal inductance to speak of.

http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=11638

The lower the overall energy storage of a cable, the lower and to the left the line gets...the EDC=1 line (dark blue) is lightspeed, nothing can exist below that line.

The higher a cable gets away from the origion, the slower the cable. 

It would "behoove" all to use a graph of this type to locate every cable, and how it sounded, for all speakers.  That is of course, a very long emperical path, I prefer the analytical one of course, so post the technicals so others can do that.


Cheers, John

Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 16 Nov 2010, 02:44 pm
Been there done that.   :lol:

I stopped reading white papers long ago.  For me, it is like reading wikiepedia.  Have you stopped  and asked or measured cables inside your speakers?  What about inside the amps?  Perhaps on an engineering standpoint specs means a lot.  However, we are talking about speaker cables here.  You can have the best looking specs in paper, most expensive terminators, and sounded horrible in real world situations.  My point is just listen to them.

Thanks again John. 
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: jneutron on 16 Nov 2010, 03:08 pm
Been there done that.   :lol:

I stopped reading white papers long ago.  For me, it is like reading wikiepedia.
For me, white papers are entertainment. Like watching a train wreck at times.  And, that applies to vendors as well as "engineering types" who are trying to save all from the vendors.

  Have you stopped  and asked or measured cables inside your speakers?
What happens on the other side of the terminals stays on the other side of the terminals.  My analysis shows the interaction of the impedance within to the cable outside.  This is a manu consideration, not a user.  Users should only listen, and can be guided by technical knowledge (should it exist).

What about inside the amps?
My t-line analysis shows how the amp output node is incrementally bumped as a result of the line/load relationship.  Again, that is a vendor concern technically, users would be expected to choose by preference. (edit:  for example, a fast transient will reflect off the load, and when it hits the amp node, the feedback loop will contend with that reflection...if one of the pre's saturate during that bump, how fast will the amp recover?  A technical spec the user cannot consider, yet a situation that a vendor should.)
Perhaps on an engineering standpoint specs means a lot.  However, we are talking about speaker cables here.  You can have the best looking specs in paper and sounded horrible in real world situations.  My point is just listen to them.
Specs mean everything, they will be all encompassing as long as the correct ones are used.  For an end user, they can be meaningless if the interpretation information is lacking.

As I repeat often, what the end user likes is the only important thing.  My goal is to eliminate the disconnect between specs and end use preference. 

Thanks again John.

Never a problem.  Tis a nice discussion.

Cheers, John
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 16 Nov 2010, 03:12 pm
Agreed!   :beer:

For me, white papers are entertainment. Like watching a train wreck at times.  And, that applies to vendors as well as "engineering types" who are trying to save all from the vendors.
What happens on the other side of the terminals stays on the other side of the terminals.  My analysis shows the interaction of the impedance within to the cable outside.  This is a manu consideration, not a user.  Users should only listen, and can be guided by technical knowledge (should it exist).
My t-line analysis shows how the amp output node is incrementally bumped as a result of the line/load relationship.  Again, that is a vendor concern technically, users would be expected to choose by preference.
Specs mean everything, they will be all encompassing as long as the correct ones are used.  For an end user, they can be meaningless if the interpretation information is lacking.

As I repeat often, what the end user likes is the only important thing.  My goal is to eliminate the disconnect between specs and end use preference. 

Never a problem.  Tis a nice discussion.

Cheers, John
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: brucek on 16 Nov 2010, 05:29 pm
Quote from: jneutron
The characteristic impedance of a speaker cable driving a wildy varying load, will affect the settling time of the signal being delivered to the speaker.  This comes from simple transmission line theory and measurement.

Allow me to disagree somewhat. You're applying standard transmission line theory to audio bandwidths. There is no possible transmission line theory that would support any type of reflection on a cable at audio frequencies in any length less than many kilometers. The characteristic impedance of a transmission line is only valid at high frequencies - audio doesn't qualify.

Let me be more specific. The worst case audio frequency of 20Khz has a wavelength of about 15 kilometers in air. Considering the velocity factor of the wire, then a rule of thumb for wire transmission would be about a 10 kilometer wavelength. Pretty long speaker cable. So, as far as standing waves on a few meter piece of cable when we're dealing with a 10 kilometer wavelength, the cable appears as DC. No reflections possible, it won't happen.

It's a very common engineering practice to consider only the DC resistance of a (transmission line) cable when the line is short in comparison with the wavelength of the electrical energy that it conducts. Certainly we would consider a couple meter cable short in comparison to 10 kilometers (at 20Khz audio frequency). In fact, in very short cables, in relation to the wavelength of the signal, the resistance of the line is considered completely insignificant and the energy transferred is considered lossless. This would be the case for an audio interconnect with regard to impedance matching and reflections. It's just not a consideration.

With regard to the L and C of a cable, it's important to consider the interface. In an audio amplifier interfacing to a low impedance load, such as a speaker, other than the simple DCR, the inductance is the most important, while the capacitance can essentially be ignored. The system damping formula is almost exclusively driven by the impedance of the speaker cable, which is a function of its resistance and inductive reactance. Parallel capacitive reactance can be ignored here since this a low impedance connection, so we can essentially disregard it and the bypass reactance it causes as it's too small an effect. Capacitance is only a player in high impedance connections such as interconnects between preamps and power amps, since these are a voltage bridge with a high impedance load and the preamp acting as a voltage source where very little current is being drawn.

Anyway, the inductance spec that James shows is quite good (at the expense of capacitance). Likely a nice speaker cable.

brucek
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: jneutron on 16 Nov 2010, 05:34 pm
Allow me to disagree somewhat. You're applying standard transmission line theory to audio bandwidths. There is no possible transmission line theory that would support any type of reflection on a cable at audio frequencies in any length less than many kilometers. The characteristic impedance of a transmission line is only valid at high frequencies - audio doesn't qualify.

Bruce...approximations taught in undergrad and grad are in general, very good.  However, that said;

Start here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=87684.60

You need only view my posts to follow, none of the other posts are required for continuity of analysis.
Ask any question you wish.  I will answer.

Anyway, the inductance spec that James shows is quite good (at the expense of capacitance)
Actually, it is impossible for a cylindrical single wire pair to have that little inductance, no matter what is done...twisting specifically.  That is actually what spurred my question.

Cheers, John


Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: rob80b on 16 Nov 2010, 07:05 pm
Specs mean everything, they will be all encompassing as long as the correct ones are used.  For an end user, they can be meaningless if the interpretation information is lacking.

As I repeat often, what the end user likes is the only important thing.  My goal is to eliminate the disconnect between specs and end use preference. 

Never a problem.  Tis a nice discussion.

Cheers, John

Hi John

Curious if multi-strand or solid core cables come into the equation.

Robert
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: James Tanner on 16 Nov 2010, 08:11 pm
Hi Folks,

Spoke to the manufacturer and they say the inductance is in fact -
                             
Inductance  .2 uH (microhenrys) /ft 

They appologize for any misunderstanding and will forward me a more comprehensive explanation by the end of the week. 

james
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: jneutron on 16 Nov 2010, 08:33 pm
Hi John

Curious if multi-strand or solid core cables come into the equation.

Robert

I have made no distinction with respect to solid/stranded.

The two things that can be altered by solid/strand are inductance and resistance.

When two conductors are close to each other, proximity will play a role.  As frequency goes up, the current will re-distribute to reduce external inductance as well as internal inductance.

The total effect can be measured easily using something like an HP 4284A.  This meter will also measure the effective resistance as proximity and skinning take effect.  Last data I looked at, most cables are pretty uniform out to 100Khz. 

In theory, stranded could possibly be affected adversly if corroded, but I haven't considered it.  I prefer stranded for ease of use.  Of course, I do not have a very good system either..

Cheers, John
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: jneutron on 16 Nov 2010, 08:34 pm
Hi Folks,

Spoke to the manufacturer and they say the inductance is in fact -
                             
Inductance  .2 uH (microhenrys) /ft 

They appologize for any misunderstanding and will forward me a more comprehensive explanation by the end of the week. 

james

Today, I was the windshield.

Tomorrow, I'll probably be the bug.. :o

Cheers, John

ps..with inductance at 200 nH per foot for one pair, the capacitance for a single pair should be about 35 pf per foot. 

Since the wire is 4 conductor, I suspect all 4 conductors were used for the measurements. 
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: 1ZIP on 16 Nov 2010, 09:34 pm
Just curious!

Soooo.... if the following is the new cable spec's:

Charcoal jacket; 9.5mm (.375”) diameter
Resistance .0008 ohms/ft                             
Capacitance 70pF/ft                                       
Inductance  .2 (corrected value) uH (microhenrys) /ft
9-gauge

....what are the old cable spec's?
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 16 Nov 2010, 11:07 pm
Specs looks good!

I have the old cables.  Can't wait to compare the two together. 

Thanks James.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: 1ZIP on 16 Nov 2010, 11:21 pm

Thanks James!

Levi:

It would be interesting to hear your feedback on the two cables.
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 16 Nov 2010, 11:36 pm
Thanks.  I will try. 

You know my 40yr old ears were not as good to subtle changes anymore.  :lol:
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: jdandy on 17 Nov 2010, 12:27 am
James.......I saw your comment about the spades and bananas, "'Heavily Gold plated' Spade lugs or ‘Expandable Banana’ plugs specially made for Bryston."  Is the base metal of the spades and bananas copper or silver, or the more typical brass or bronze?
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: jneutron on 17 Nov 2010, 01:44 am
Gauge: - 9.5

Resistance - .003 Ohms

Capacitance – 97 P/F

Inductance - .4 MicroHenry

Assuming I can trust the numbers.

Sigh..

No, you cannot.  Those L/C numbers do not make sense.

I apologize.

Perhaps you should PM me.

Cheers, John

Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: James Tanner on 17 Nov 2010, 02:08 am
Sigh..

No, you cannot.  Those L/C numbers do not make sense.

I apologize.

Perhaps you should PM me.

Cheers, John

Hi John,

will do.

james
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: James Tanner on 17 Nov 2010, 04:52 pm
Got some great input from John - THANKS John :D

I believe the new cable specs are correct as listed above but we are going to do some of our own measurements as well.

I guess I should say that I really did not want to get involved in a spec contest with our cables.  I just wanted to be able to offer our customers a reasonable cable at a reasonable price with good electrical characteristics.

james
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: 1oldguy on 17 Nov 2010, 05:03 pm
Got some great input from John - THANKS John :D

I believe the new cable specs are correct as listed above but we are going to do some of our own measurements as well.

I guess I should say that I really did not want to get involved in a spec contest with our cables.  I just wanted to be able to offer our customers a reasonable cable at a reasonable price with good electrical characteristics.

James

 :thumb: Sounds good to me.
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: 1ZIP on 17 Nov 2010, 05:20 pm
Got some great input from John - THANKS John :D

I believe the new cable specs are correct as listed above but we are going to do some of our own measurements as well.

I guess I should say that I really did not want to get involved in a spec contest with our cables.  I just wanted to be able to offer our customers a reasonable cable at a reasonable price with good electrical characteristics.

james

.....and you have accomplished that and probably more! :thumb:

I have Bryston IC's in both my systems and their addition has made noticeable and positive improvements to the sound, without having to give up my first born.  I have no reason to suspect the new speaker cables will be any different.

Thanks James

Title: I find these approximation "generalizations" worth discussion
Post by: jneutron on 18 Nov 2010, 02:26 pm
Bruce, this is not about you...you posted very pleasantly..thank you.

Allow me to disagree somewhat. You're applying standard transmission line theory to audio bandwidths. There is no possible transmission line theory that would support any type of reflection on a cable at audio frequencies in any length less than many kilometers. The characteristic impedance of a transmission line is only valid at high frequencies - audio doesn't qualify.

What Bruce states is roughly what is taught in an E/M course.  However, these are strictly approximations which have been created artificially, guidelines for the engineer to use so that they do not bog down in details.  The exponential skin effect approximation is another such "rule", allowing us to quickly get a reasonable good answer without working the bessels.

The characteristic impedance of a transmission line is invariant of length.  It is precisely Z = sqr(L/C).  Note that it also is frequency independent.  In other words, the statement ""The characteristic impedance of a transmission line is only valid at high frequencies  "" has no merit.

This equation also clearly defines the relationship between the current and voltage within the line such that the energy that is stored within the cable is equally distributed between magnetic field and electric field. 

If one were to attempt to perform the normal tricks one is used to at rf and microwave frequencies, such as quarter wave matching  or stub tuning, the length of the cable with respect to wavelength comes heavily into play.  For very short t-lines, movement on the smith chart is far too small to do anything useful  That is why the wavelength relationship is "assumed".  It has nothing to do with whether a t-line has characteristic impedance or reflections at any frequency or wavelength, it is all about practicality when pulling the ol' smith chart out.

So, as far as standing waves on a few meter piece of cable when we're dealing with a 10 kilometer wavelength, the cable appears as DC. No reflections possible, it won't happen.

Another error based on assumptions.  First, we are not talking about standing waves.  Standing waves require appropriate wavelengths.  Reflections are not standing waves.  Reflections are required for standing waves, but standing waves are not required for reflections.  Causality.

Reflections do occur.  If the slew rate of the impetus signal is slow in comparison to the system response, in this case the wire length, it will not be possible to see the reflections.  Overall, the entire cable voltage and current will appear to be reflection free, but that is an artifact of the prop speed, the signal speed, and our ability to resolve the effect via measurements.

Look at the settling times we speak of.  6 uSec?  How would one measure that for a 1Khz signal?  Not easily.  This concern is "approximated out" by microwave engineers, but yet humans can hear this level of change interaurally.

With regard to the L and C of a cable, it's important to consider the interface. In an audio amplifier interfacing to a low impedance load, such as a speaker, other than the simple DCR, the inductance is the most important, while the capacitance can essentially be ignored.
Actually, no.

It is well known that a high bw amp can oscillate if the cable is excessively high in capacitance.  What is NOT generally known, is it is not the capacitance per se that is the problem.  It is the cable to load end matching.

If you have an 8 ohm cable feeding a pure 8 ohm load, the amp will not oscillate.  It will see NO capacitance, no matter how long the cable is.  If the load decouples as frequency goes up (impedance rises) such that the load Z is far greater than the cable Z, then most of the energy stored within the cable will be electric field based.  The amp has a problem with that if it still has gain at those frequencies.

If you wish to discuss, that would be excellent.

Cheers, John

Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: 1oldguy on 18 Nov 2010, 02:58 pm
Very interesting to say the least.Now if i only had a degree to fully grasp all this it would be even better. :duh:
Digging it though. :wink: :thumb:
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: jneutron on 18 Nov 2010, 05:23 pm
Very interesting to say the least.
What an odd thing. Personally,I would call it boring technospeak.

I apologize to all for the gobbledeegook, but Bruce's assertions required comment.

Now if i only had a degree to fully grasp all this it would be even better. :duh:
I have two degrees.  Farenheit... and Centigrade..  tis all that is required.

The essence of my post is simple.  While I find that it would not be difficult for me to trash vendors for the inaccuracies of their marketspeak or white papers, it is not a constructive path.  The assumption that what was taught in an EE program is inviolate must be tempered by the fact that a lot of it is based on simplifications.  Knowing when the simplifications are good enough is very important, as well as when they are not adequate for the task..

I find it troubling when a techno-type uses a personal/business website as a podium to slap others either directly or indirectly.  And especially so when they themselves do not understand the concepts they use as a blunt instrument.

But that is me, that is now.

Cheers, John

Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: James Tanner on 20 Nov 2010, 01:31 am
James.......I saw your comment about the spades and bananas, "'Heavily Gold plated' Spade lugs or ‘Expandable Banana’ plugs specially made for Bryston."  Is the base metal of the spades and bananas copper or silver, or the more typical brass or bronze?

Hi jdandy,

The Base metal is Copper.

james
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: dubkarma on 20 Nov 2010, 02:56 am
I posted in a new thread and should have looked more carefully at the existing topics, because my query belongs in this thread. Sorry for duplication.

I've had the SC4 speaker cable in my bedroom/office system for a week now and cannot shake the feeling that, compared to the previous Bryston Vandamme cables, I've lost 4-6 dB in system SPL. Now this seems physically impossible to me, but am convinced that I have to advance the volume knob on the BP-26 way beyond what I used to for the same volume.

Am I just hallucinating or could there be some electro-physical basis for this impression?

Appreciate any thoughts others may have--even if it's to assure me that I am indeed deluded.

Cheers,

Joel.
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: drummermitchell on 20 Nov 2010, 03:48 am
Joel,I'll let you know in a week as mine should be here next week,I to, have the Bryston Van Damme cables also.
I have had my 26 @8:00-8:30.
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: dubkarma on 20 Nov 2010, 03:28 pm
drummermitchell,

Thanks! Look forward to learning of your impressions.

Joel.
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 21 Nov 2010, 02:36 am
Subscribed!
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Napalm on 21 Nov 2010, 06:06 am
I posted in a new thread and should have looked more carefully at the existing topics, because my query belongs in this thread. Sorry for duplication.

I've had the SC4 speaker cable in my bedroom/office system for a week now and cannot shake the feeling that, compared to the previous Bryston Vandamme cables, I've lost 4-6 dB in system SPL. Now this seems physically impossible to me, but am convinced that I have to advance the volume knob on the BP-26 way beyond what I used to for the same volume.

Am I just hallucinating or could there be some electro-physical basis for this impression?

Appreciate any thoughts others may have--even if it's to assure me that I am indeed deluded.

Cheers,

Joel.

Gauge. Larger is better. There's quite some difference between 9 and 12 gauge, especially with speakers with dips in impedance.

As for inductance/capacitance, transmission line theory and so on. Someone should fire up PSPICE and do a simulation. Otherwise we're threading water.

Nap.
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Napalm on 21 Nov 2010, 06:08 am
BTW James, will the old Van Damme cable continue to be available?

Nap.  :scratch:
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: James Tanner on 21 Nov 2010, 11:28 am
BTW James, will the old Van Damme cable continue to be available?

Nap.  :scratch:

Hi Nap

From Van Damme only :D

James
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: jneutron on 22 Nov 2010, 02:14 pm
As for inductance/capacitance, transmission line theory and so on. Someone should fire up PSPICE and do a simulation. Otherwise we're threading water.
Nap.
"Threading water"..nice touch..

In simulating via pspice, be very careful how you attach the nodes to "measure".  There are quite a few hidden "bumps" which can compromise the simulation, especially with t-lines, step functions, and analytical approximations.  And it is very important to verify that the instantaneous voltages at both the source and load node are reasonable and correct for varying parameters, as well as making sure the currents sum to zero at both locations.

The model must be well behaved, or it's trash.  Ask me about how well a biwire model runs.

Been there, done that.

Cheers, John
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 22 Nov 2010, 02:28 pm
Hi John,

Not to open a can of worms, perhaps in a few short words, what do you think makes a good speaker cable?

 
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: klao on 24 Nov 2010, 06:41 pm
James,

How to best connect the "shot gun" or bi-wiring two sets of single-run speaker cables to the back of the Bryston amps that do not have double speaker binding posts as in the 28B's?  One set with spades and another with bananas, or both sets with spades?

Thanks,
Klao
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Napalm on 24 Nov 2010, 06:49 pm
Great pricing:

http://www.weldingcable.net/ (http://www.weldingcable.net/)

You can't beat some 1 gauge. (yes 1 not 10).

Nap.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Stephen L on 24 Nov 2010, 06:54 pm
Hi,

   One pair of cables is all you need, you can have them shot-gunned. Two spades or bananas for the amp end, and four spades or bananas for the speaker end. I have spades at the amp and bananas at the speakers.

Steve

Quote
How to best connect the "shot gun" or bi-wiring two sets of single-run speaker cables to the back of the Bryston amps that do not have double speaker binding posts as in the 28B's?  One set with spades and another with bananas, or both sets with spades?
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: klao on 24 Nov 2010, 08:07 pm
Hi Steve,

Thanks.  I'm thinking just in case I might change from the non-biwirable speakers (1st set of cables) to bi-wirable speakers later (thus 2nd set of cables to be added).  :)

Klao
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: BrysTony on 24 Nov 2010, 08:41 pm
Hi Steve,

Thanks.  I'm thinking just in case I might change from the non-biwirable speakers (1st set of cables) to bi-wirable speakers later (thus 2nd set of cables to be added).  :)

Klao

One solution is to use a stackable connector at the amp end such as http://www.wbtusa.com/pages/0645m.html (http://www.wbtusa.com/pages/0645m.html)  You just plug a banana connector into it for bi-wiring.
Tony
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: James Tanner on 24 Nov 2010, 08:49 pm
Other option:


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=39073)

james
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: klao on 24 Nov 2010, 08:51 pm
Tony & James, thanks a lot.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: dubkarma on 25 Nov 2010, 01:05 am
Reporting back on the new SC4 speaker cables with which I'd been having trouble.

After a certain amount of amplifier and cable switching, I can only conclude there's some problem with the power amp I've been using in that system.

When I switched in another amplifier, one I know well (MC2 Audio MC750), the SC4—or, rather, the system—lost that constricted, dull quality I mentioned earlier in this thread.

Now I can go ahead and actually compare the SC4 (4 x 12 AWG) to the previous Vandamme (2 x 9 AWG), the Canare 4S11 (4 x 14 AWG) and the Mogami 3104 (4 x 12 AWG).   

Will endeavour to report back. . .

Cheers,

Joel.
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Stu Pitt on 25 Nov 2010, 03:25 am
I'd like to hear what you think of the SC4 vs Canare 4S11.  I bought them a while back due to needing about 25 feet per side.  They sounded pretty good, no complaints at all.  After moving, I shortened them to 8 feet per side.  It was like a big veil was lifted.  It wasn't the new room, as I set everything up in the new room and listened to the system for about 3 months before I shortened them.  I meant to shorten them since day one, but never got around to it. 
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: budt on 26 Nov 2010, 06:07 pm
   jneutron
      I copied a post I made from another thread which is:
To my ears the difference in cables is so small that it may only exist in my head.Then again maybe my hearing simply isn't good enough.
  This is one thing I do know from experience; what you have plugged into  in certain circuits can have a dramatic effect( it can be like changing speakers the effect can be that great). ie. play around with source/preamp/amp being on the same circuits,different circuits,2 on one ,each on their own etc...It is astonishing that such differences can exist. I would have never believed it if I hadn't discovered it quite by accident one time.
   I had changed something in my system and so I unplugged the preamp and source to make this change.When I was finished trying it I reconnected the system as before but the sound suddenly was very closed in. I checked,double checked,triple checked and couldn't understand what in the world had happened.Then it occurred to me that the only difference was that I had reversed the plug ins for the source and preamp. I changed them back and instantly the sound was back.It simply never occurred to me that a difference could possibly exist. This was the case in my previous house as well as my present house( perhaps bad power in both areas). In any event it doesn't cost anything to try it.
  I know it must sound completely crazy( but I am not a "tweek" kind of guy whatsoever).Most of my wire are BLUEJEANS with the exception of my speaker wire which is BRYSTON. I don't have cones,spikes or silk clothes under anything as I simply never heard a difference but the circuit thing was dramatic.....

   I know there must be a scientific explanation for this. What do you think is going on here?
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: James Tanner on 26 Nov 2010, 07:41 pm
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=39156)

The length and resistance of the loud-speaker cable in your audio/video system is very important. In fact, any speaker cable is a compromise and the shorter you make your speaker cable the more accurate the sonic result.

Keeping speaker cables as short as possible is essential for maintaining good (damping) control over the loudspeaker drivers. Music is a dynamic 'transient' (stopping and starting) condition and the better the amplifier can control the motion of the drivers in your loudspeakers the better the performance. The normally extremely low output impedance of the power amplifier will be compromised by any addition of 'series resistance' associated with speaker cables. Therefore, no cables (as in powered speakers) are best followed by keeping the speaker cables as short as possible.

Most loudspeakers have impedance curves which will vary all over the map with frequency but this does not mean that adding a small series resistance due to loudspeaker cable is unimportant. In fact, if you add some small resistance between the amplifier and the speaker, you will create an interesting result. The loudspeaker's frequency response will start to vary directly as its own impedance! The magnitude of this effect increases directly with the magnitude of the series resistance added. So what you can end up with is a frequency response from your speaker which is a direct mirror of the impedance curve of your loudspeaker. This undesirable effect can be minimized with short, low resistance cables and low output impedance amplifiers. The output impedance of any decent modern solid state power amp will be practically zero ohms (Bryston amplifiers are typically .01 ohms). To optimize the damping factor (ratio of speaker impedance over amplifier output impedance plus speaker cable impedance), any resistance between the speaker and the amp is undesirable.

If we had a perfect amp with an output impedance of zero ohms and a perfect speaker cable with a series resistance of zero ohms then the damping factor would be infinite.

Note: In this case the damping factor would be infinite regardless of speaker impedance (something, even if it changes, divided by nothing is always infinity).

At the other extreme, power loss in your speaker cable contributes to audible dynamic compression because: Cable Power loss = Current SQUARED X Resistance of speaker cables. On dynamic peaks, output current can be in the 'tens of amperes'. That squared, times what might seem an insignificant amount of cable resistance can cause significant power loss.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=39157)


This may explain to some degree why some people hear substantial quality increases in their systems when they bi-wire or tri-wire while others claim little or no improvement. In some cases the extra set of speaker wires would significantly reduce the resistance (and improve the damping factor) between the amplifier and the loudspeakers, especially in long runs. With the advent of multi-channel audio systems utilizing rear/back channels usually positioned 20 to 30 or more feet away from the amplifiers this lack of control becomes a serious issue. The Bryston PowerPac Series of amplifiers are an attempt to minimize this problem by allowing the amplifier to be placed adjacent to each loudspeaker or attached directly to it using long interconnects (preferably balanced). By the way, the reason that cable length is relatively unimportant for component (Preamp to Amp) interconnects is that the magnitude of signal current in the conductors of interconnect cables is so small the power loss is insignificant.

You must always try to preserve the dynamic integrity of the recording so reducing the resistance of your loudspeaker cable is one giant step it the right direction.


james
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Robert D on 26 Nov 2010, 09:08 pm

Damping Factor with Calculator


http://www.bcae1.com/dampfact.htm


Robert   It works !
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 26 Nov 2010, 10:26 pm
My monos are so close to my speakers, I can get away with 2ft of that nice juicy cables.  I ordered 4ft speaker cables for aesthetic reasons. LOL!  :lol:
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: redbook on 28 Nov 2010, 06:48 pm
Yeh, mine are six feet long. I figured this made sense even though back then , 20yrs, I didn't have the technical info as now.  Redbook. :rock:
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: dubkarma on 30 Nov 2010, 05:27 pm
Well, I've spent a week going back and forth between the Canare 4S11 cables and the new SC4. Both are in bi-wire configuration Both use WBT-style bananas on all ends, although the ones that come with the Bryston cables strike me as better quality. No way to compare the materials used, though, since I simply don't know.

In favour of the 4S11: higher SPL at the same volume setting on the preamp. This doesn't make the least bit of sense to me, especially since the SC4 is a 4 x 12 AWG cable compared to the 4S11's 4 x 14 AWG and the SWC4 is a 10 foot pair while the 4S11 is 12 feet. But I keep noticing it. Perhaps the SC4 adds less to the sound, that is, alters the signal from the power amp less in which case there's actually less "information" being transmitted by the SC4 with the result that a higher volume setting is required to achieve the same total SPL. If not that, I'll just have to remain mystified.

In favour of the SC4: Pretty much everything else! Deeper more clearly articulated bass; less bright, but at the same time more detailed HF (e.g., percussive metal sounds like cymbals, tympanis, gongs, cowbells); less sibilance on vocals, especially female vocals (love that Azam Ali!); more vivid transients; better separation of different instruments, i.e., quieter, more "delicate" sounds less "swamped" by louder sounds.

Now I can move on (or back in time) and compare the SC4 to the Bryston-Vandamme cable. One problem there is that the Vandamme is single wire and the SC4 is biwired—and I'm not about to reconfigure the SC4.

[Associated equipment: Technics SP-10MKII on davinci_redux birch plywood plinth (thanks again, Leon!) with Jelco SA-750E tonearm and Reson Reca cartridge; Perreaux TU3 tuner; Bryston BCD-1 CD player and Tascam CD-01U/Lavry Black DA10 DAC; Bryston BP-26MC; Ayre P-5xe phono stage; MC2 Audio MC750 amplifier; Tannoy System 15 DMT II speakers; Torus RM15; Mogami 3107 for all interconnects, digital and analogue, balanced and single-ended; DIY power cables (Carol 12 AWG for sources/preamp; Carol 10 AWG for power amp and Torus); isolated ground AC receptacle (requires 4-conductor wire) on dedicated 20 amp feed.]
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 30 Nov 2010, 06:15 pm
dubkarma:
Perhaps the speaker cables' laid back character is what you are hearing?!?  Which appears to perceived as less volume.  Hmmm...just a thought.

Finally, the Eagle has landed.  Well more like Fedex man with a small white box that says Bryston.   :thumb:

My first impression of the new Bryston speaker cable is a positive one.  It is my pleasure to report that no fire, smoke, or blown woofers yet. 

Kidding aside, I truly like the new Bryston speaker cables sonic qualities.  It has a slightly laid back character and wide dynamic range that was never bright.  Likewise, the cables' highly revealing non-fatiquing nature wants me to crank up the volume to hear more, to grab the music and feel it.  Listening to "The Four Season's & Water Music" '97 Philips CD1 and CD2s' violins were in perfect pitch and definition.  The beautiful warm sound of wood instruments, the speed of the 2 madolins, strings, harp and Basso Continuo brought the past back into my living room.  Finally, Speaking of BRAT.  Bass, Rhythm and Timing, "The White Stripes Elephant" track 1, track 5 warm synthesizer, Track6 etc, were very natural sounding and fast.  True to the recording.  I just let it rock. 

Very nice, the new speaker cables really complemented the Bryston amps and PMC speakers for a price that will not break the bank.  Good job Bryston. 
   

As for the connectors, I soldered my preferred WBT 0645 connector on the positive and Bryston banana on the negative (speaker end), Bryston spades on the amp side.  Please don't ask me why, it is a personal preference.   :D



(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/ofier/Stereophile/Main%20System/Bryston%20SC4%20spkr%20cables/b35f83a5.jpg)


If anyone interested, I am selling my Kimber 8TC and my old Vandamme speaker cables.
Title: Re: Bryston's new SC4 speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 30 Nov 2010, 09:42 pm
I don't believe in cables break-in because it is so hard to quantify the difference.  There are so many variables in play. 

Cable break-in or not, the more I listen the more I like it.  That is all the matters.   :wine:

(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/ofier/Stereophile/Main%20System/Bryston%20SC4%20spkr%20cables/c388ff84.jpg)
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: jneutron on 1 Dec 2010, 06:31 pm
Hi John,

Not to open a can of worms, perhaps in a few short words, what do you think makes a good speaker cable?
1.  Quality.  No need to expound on that.
2.  Resistance.  The user has control over this by decision.

This affects damping factor and response flatness.  In general, bigger is better, but at some point increasing the size of the wire will have no effect that can be discerned.

3.  L/C.  the user may not have control over this.

Choosing L/C can be done, and will most certainly affect the system response in various ways including the settling time as I posted.  That said, there is NO information out there one can use to make the decision as to what L and C is best for one's system, nor is it necessary that the changes rise to the level of audibility.

There is no magic out there, so don't be swayed by such sillyness.

I use #12 awg for runs up to 125 feet for the sound system I abuse.  For generic at home, I use #12 or #14 zip for mains.  For the 5.1 set, I use what was given free, #24 or #22 thin garbage...WAF here.  But the speakers are 3 inch cubes, not exactly high end.  The point is, if simple suffices, use it.

For all others with a good system, I'd recommend #12 or so Zip to start..  If you want to play, try that first, then double them up CAREFULLY to halve the resistance, inductance, and characteristic impedance.  More than likely, the lowered resistance won't make a difference..  But, there is a small possibility that the lowered inductance does something.  If so, triple it up, etc..  At some point, no difference can happen.

Once you are happy, then you'll know what kind of cable your system needs. There is always the possibility that you perceive changes that do not exist, and miss ones that do...humans...sheesh..

The best methodology is to alter only ONE speaker in this fashion.  If the soundstage image shifts laterally, then you have made a difference. Note:  be especially critical of lateral shifting between images, as well as lateral shifts of sibilance with respect to the fundamental notes of female vocals.

When you are done, replace the cheap zip with something that is well built from a reputable manu.  Stuff from HD or RS is good enough for playing around, but the long term concerns make me cringe.  There are many stories out there about green wire, and the insulation plastic of really cheap wires tend to attack the copper strands..or get brittle and crack.

Cheers, John
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 2 Dec 2010, 04:29 am
Thanks John.  I think I found my speaker cables.  :)
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 6 Dec 2010, 05:26 pm
I just placed another order for my center channel.   :banana piano:
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Vipers on 12 Dec 2010, 02:50 pm
James,

Have you got an e-mail address that I can contact to get a price on a couple of 4m lenghts of your new speaker cable with Bannana plugs at each end + some other goodies (mugs etc) with shipping to the UK?

Thanks,
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: James Tanner on 12 Dec 2010, 02:54 pm
Hi Vipers

Email Melissa at Bryston - mmiles@bryston.com. PMC have asked about the cable as well so they may have a few rolls on the way.

James
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 12 Dec 2010, 03:31 pm
Hi Vipers,

You will like the sound of the Bryston new speaker cables with your PMC/Bryston gears!  Then you can recommend it to your mates at AVSForums. ;)

Cheers to you!

(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/ofier/Stereophile/Main%20System/PMC%20CB6i/IMG_4041.jpg)
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Vipers on 12 Dec 2010, 06:17 pm
Hi Vipers

Email Melissa at Bryston - mmiles@bryston.com. PMC have asked about the cable as well so they may have a few rolls on the way.

James

Thanks James, I'll fire an e-mail over shortly.

If it's OK, I'd rather get the cable direct from you guys as I'm an impatient so and so and am going to want it asap  :)

Has anyone made this cable into speaker jumpers? As I use Atlas speaker cable at the moment and they made me up some jumpers from the cable I use to replace my metal jumpers and it definately seemed to improve the performance of my EB1i's? Is this cable very thick? could it easily be made into jumpers of say 20cm long and be flexible enough to use as jumpers?

Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Vipers on 12 Dec 2010, 06:21 pm
Hi Vipers,

You will like the sound of the Bryston new speaker cables with your PMC/Bryston gears!  Then you can recommend it to your mates at AVSForums. ;)

Cheers to you!

(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/ofier/Stereophile/Main%20System/PMC%20CB6i/IMG_4041.jpg)

Hi Levi,

I raise my PMC mug to you also, cheers  :D

I take it you've seen our little Bryston Owners Thread on AVForums, we're definately waving the Bryston flag alot over here in the UK  :thumb:
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Vipers on 12 Dec 2010, 09:31 pm
Ah Levi, Sorry mate, I've just realised that our paths have just crossed on AVForums, it's been a busy weekend  :oops:
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 12 Dec 2010, 09:56 pm
No apologies recquired. I enjoyed your audio journey.  Glad you discovered Bryston as your main amplification.  I too love good clean articulating bass!  :thumb:
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 14 Dec 2010, 05:27 pm
My center channel cable arrived.  Thanks Melissa!

(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/ofier/Stereophile/Main%20System/Bryston%20SC4%20spkr%20cables/c402b413.jpg)
Custom bare wire ready for soldering.

(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/ofier/Stereophile/Main%20System/Bryston%20SC4%20spkr%20cables/6b8f5627.jpg)
Thinned using WBT silver solder.

(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/ofier/Stereophile/Main%20System/Bryston%20SC4%20spkr%20cables/097abce7.jpg)
Amp side finished ready to enjoy  :thumb:

(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/ofier/Stereophile/Main%20System/Bryston%20SC4%20spkr%20cables/67dd1019.jpg)
Speaker side.  Note: old Van Damme cables. :)

Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: 1ZIP on 14 Dec 2010, 05:36 pm
On the spades....is that a photo artifact or they as pitted as they look?
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 14 Dec 2010, 05:47 pm
I didn't even pay attention to the quality of the spades.  It is only visible with the camera with macro lens + flash.  Make sure you get one just like mine because it sounds soo good.

On the spades....is that a photo artifact or they as pitted as they look?
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Vipers on 14 Dec 2010, 07:45 pm
You're making me very jealous Levi :) I'm gagging to get my MB2i's and 7B's singing with this cable, still waiting to hear back from Melissa on a price then I'll be placing my order  :thumb:
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 14 Dec 2010, 07:59 pm
Hi Vipers, may I suggest you go directly to Bryston's website and order your custom cables.  http://bryston.com/speaker.html

Then call Melissa instead of waiting for her.  ;)

I find it more efficient that way.  That is how I roll.   :lol:
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: bjski on 14 Dec 2010, 08:16 pm
I am new to this site but I bought my first 4b in 1985 which is still running in my home theater set up.

I just received 2 pairs of cable at 3 meters.I only placed one set in operation and that was with 2 4bst's running bridged for the bass. What was immediately apparent was tighter bass.I have yet to place the other set on my 4bsst2 which is driving the highs.

I do beleive James Tanner has talked my into some 7's/2.








Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Vipers on 14 Dec 2010, 08:19 pm
Hi Vipers, may I suggest you go directly to Bryston's website and order your custom cables.  http://bryston.com/speaker.html

Then call Melissa instead of waiting for her.  ;)

I find it more efficient that way.  That is how I roll.   :lol:

Sounds like a plan, thanks Levi  :thumb:
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 14 Dec 2010, 10:13 pm
Hi Bjski, welcome to Bryston forum. What speakers are you currently using?
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: James Tanner on 19 Dec 2010, 06:30 pm
Good article on the basics of speaker cable:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_2/ultralink-CL414-cable-5-2003.html
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 19 Dec 2010, 08:20 pm
Great article.  Thanks for sharing James!  :thumb:
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: BrysTony on 19 Dec 2010, 08:45 pm
I agree - it is an excellent article and it affirms the new Bryston cable design.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: bjski on 19 Dec 2010, 11:18 pm
I was using Infinity IRS Epsilon.2 4bst bridged for the bass and a 4 bsst/2 for the highs.Did some upgrades this last week.I'm waitng for a pair of Legacy focus SE which are to be delivered tomorrow and a pair of Bryston 7Bsst/2. Bat 32se pre-amp,Theta player and a Bryston BDA-1,Wadia 170. James Tanner talked me into the 7Bsst/2. I'm guessing he's a bad man!! LOL!!
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: James Tanner on 19 Dec 2010, 11:54 pm
I was using Infinity IRS Epsilon.2 4bst bridged for the bass and a 4 bsst/2 for the highs.Did some upgrades this last week.I'm waitng for a pair of Legacy focus SE which are to be delivered tomorrow and a pair of Bryston 7Bsst/2. Bat 32se pre-amp,Theta player and a Bryston BDA-1,Wadia 170. James Tanner talked me into the 7Bsst/2. I'm guessing he's a bad man!! LOL!!

Great system -  :thumb:  Please let us know how it sounds when you get it all together.

james
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: drummermitchell on 20 Dec 2010, 01:24 am
Anybody here looking for a 6'pair of Bryston's new speaker cables 150.00.
they have the spades on one end and locking bananas on the other.
I thought(mah grade 7 measurin)that 6' was enough,not quite.
I have to order a 8'pair and that will give me a bit of slack.
These are 3 weeks old.
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: vegasdave on 20 Dec 2010, 01:56 am
I was using Infinity IRS Epsilon.2 4bst bridged for the bass and a 4 bsst/2 for the highs.Did some upgrades this last week.I'm waitng for a pair of Legacy focus SE which are to be delivered tomorrow and a pair of Bryston 7Bsst/2. Bat 32se pre-amp,Theta player and a Bryston BDA-1,Wadia 170. James Tanner talked me into the 7Bsst/2. I'm guessing he's a bad man!! LOL!!

Nice Xmas gifts!
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: 1ZIP on 20 Dec 2010, 03:20 am
Somethings been bothering me about equivalent AWG's when combining wire.
If I have two 14 AWG stranded wires and combine them the roughly equivalent gauge is 11.  If I combine two 12 gauge I get roughly a 9 gauge.  If I combine two 9's I get a 6 gauge.  If I combine four 12's do I roughly get a 6?
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: srb on 20 Dec 2010, 03:48 am
If I have two 14 AWG stranded wires and combine them the roughly equivalent gauge is 11.  If I combine two 12 gauge I get roughly a 9 gauge.  If I combine two 9's I get a 6 gauge.  If I combine four 12's do I roughly get a 6?

Yes, four 12 gauge wires will give you the equivalent of a 6 gauge.  If you have two wires of the same gauge wire, the equivalent gauge is very easy to calculate as it is always -3 gauge sizes larger.  If you have an odd number of wires and/or different gauge wires to combine, it gets a little more difficult, and a Wire Gauge Calculator (http://home.hiwaay.net/~rgs/awgcalculator.html) comes in handy.
 
Steve
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: 1ZIP on 20 Dec 2010, 04:19 am
That's what I thought.  That means I've been way wrong in, for some reason, thinking the new Bryston speaker cable was a 4 x 12.  In fact it is a 4 x 15, more or less. to arrive at a cable gauge size of 9. "The Bryston speaker cable utilizes four twisted (equaling 9 gauge) multi-strand conductors of OFC copper."

This getting older is hell!
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: BrysTony on 20 Dec 2010, 04:33 am
That's what I thought.  That means I've been way wrong in, for some reason, thinking the new Bryston speaker cable was a 4 x 12.  In fact it is a 4 x 15, more or less. to arrive at a cable gauge size of 9. "The Bryston speaker cable utilizes four twisted (equaling 9 gauge) multi-strand conductors of OFC copper."

This getting older is hell!

No -- Two of the wires are for the positive terminal and two are for the negative terminal.  You are only combining two 12 gauge wires for an equivalent 9 gauge wire.
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: srb on 20 Dec 2010, 04:38 am
No -- Two of the wires are for the positive terminal and two are for the negative terminal.  You are only combining two 12 gauge wires for an equivalent 9 gauge wire.

Exactly.  I wasn't thinking of the context of the Bryston speaker cable when I answered (although that is the topic of this thread!), but just responding to your question of combining multiple wires.
 
Like BrysTony said, you need two "legs" to the speaker cable, one 9 gauge leg to the speaker and one 9 gauge return leg back to the amplifier.
 
Steve
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: 1ZIP on 20 Dec 2010, 05:07 am
Ya, I agree two twelves get you a 9 coming and going and I believe your right.  But if you just look at the statement  "....speaker cable utilizes four twisted (equaling 9 gauge) multi-strand conductors......" you could see how it could be misinterpreted.

At any rate the question arose during a comparison of two speaker cables:

BRYSTON:

Black jacket; 9.5mm (.375”) diameter
Resistance .0008 ohms/ft                             
Capacitance 70pF/ft                                       
Inductance .2 uH (microhenrys) /ft
9 gauge in-wall rated

VS

FURUTECH

* Conductor-1:α(Alpha)Conductor,μ-OFC (21/0.15mm+6/46/0.10mm(rope-lay stranding))
* Insulation:Poly Propylene(for Treble,Blue、Black)
* Conductor-2:α(Alpha)Conductor,μ-OFC (7/5/0.3mm(concentric stranding))
* Insulation:Poly Propylene (for Bass,Red、White)
* Sheath:Flexible PVC (Dark Green)
* Overall Diameter:11.0 mm (≒13 AWG) / (2.5 sq.mm)

*Electrical Properties
Max. Conductor Resistance: 10.9Ω/km(for Treble)
Max. Conductor Resistance: 10.20Ω/km(for Bass)
Dielectric Strength: AC 500 V/1min.
Min. Insulation Resistance: 1000 MΩ.km
Capacitance (for Treble): Approx. 70 PF/M
Capacitance (for Bass): Approx. 85 PF/M
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: srb on 20 Dec 2010, 05:41 am
It can be confusing comparing cables and their specifications, particularly when the resistance, capacitance and inductance might be quoted per foot, per meter or per kilometer.
 
The Furutech appears to have nearly 4 times more resistance per foot, about 1/3 of the capacitance per foot, and they don't specify inductance at all.
 
Resistance:
Bryston = .0008 ohms/ft  vs.  Furutech = .003 ohms/ft (~ 10.5 ohms/km)
Capacitance:
Bryston = 70pF/ft  vs.  Furutech = 23.8pF/ft (~ 78pF/M)
 
It's difficult to predict a sound based on specs, and one cable may be more suited to one amplifier than another.  But certainly Bryston has tested their cables with their amplifiers.
 
When Bryston describes their cable, the "twisted" refers to the 4 insulated conductors twisted together in perhaps a star-quad or similar type of configuration, but the conductors are designed to be electrically connected (or twisted) together as pairs for non bi-wired speakers.
 
Steve
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: vegasdave on 20 Dec 2010, 05:46 am
The more I read about it, the more I wanna get the BRYSTON speaker cable.
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: 1ZIP on 20 Dec 2010, 06:30 am
I have the Furutech now and I do like it.  But when I added the Bryston IC's there was such a marked improvement that the potential improvements of the new Bryston speaker cable has my interest tweaked.  Especially at $9.00/foot plus connectors.  And with only 11 ft. runs it's almost worth the experiment.
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: BrysTony on 20 Dec 2010, 12:14 pm
I have the Furutech now and I do like it.  But when I added the Bryston IC's there was such a marked improvement that the potential improvements of the new Bryston speaker cable has my interest tweaked.  Especially at $9.00/foot plus connectors.  And with only 11 ft. runs it's almost worth the experiment.

It is a great value.  Bryston finishes off the ends very nicely with shrink tube at no extra cost which gives you a good looking cable as well.  I am using it in my system (8 ft runs) and am very happy with it.
Tony
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 20 Dec 2010, 01:17 pm
I am running 4ft runs for the ultimate in driver control.  :thumb:  I think the Bryston's new cables is a great sounding cable that will not break the bank.  It simply works!
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: vegasdave on 22 Dec 2010, 12:13 am
Cool!
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: 1ZIP on 22 Dec 2010, 01:06 am
The more I read about it, the more I wanna get the BRYSTON speaker cable.

Why don't you, treat yourself...it's Christmas!
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: vegasdave on 22 Dec 2010, 09:30 am
Why don't you, treat yourself...it's Christmas!

Good idea. I hope to have the money soon. So, it won't be until after Xmas.
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: 1ZIP on 30 Dec 2010, 08:48 pm
Ordered a pair of the speaker cables today.  Those and the Torus CS-15 should arrive in two weeks.  That will make one complete Bryston system.
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: drummermitchell on 31 Dec 2010, 02:59 am
Called in for my 8ft.pair Bryston SC's today,6footers are on the block.
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: robb on 31 Dec 2010, 04:14 am
Does anybody ever measure group delay or phase anymore?. Seems to me that keeping the arrival time of various frequencies the same from the amplifier end to the speaker end would be of utmost importance in preserving the spatial and timing cues of the original recording.

rob 
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: 95Dyna on 31 Dec 2010, 08:19 pm
Great system -  :thumb:  Please let us know how it sounds when you get it all together.

james

+1 bjski.  I'm especially interested in your review of the Legacy Focus SE's.  I have the 7B2's so you don't have to sell me on those.
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: bjski on 3 Jan 2011, 02:41 pm
The Foucus SE Is a very good speaker for the money. The first thing that grab me was it had more detail than my Infinity Epsilon IRS. The bass wasn't as strong as my Infinity's but the longer I listen to them I realized the bass was more controlled than my Infinity's and acually went deeper.The Infinity's had a little more boom which might be the bass servo control. The Focus SE also has a wider sound stage.I beleive they need at least 200 hours of break in and I have about 60. Buid quality is first rate! Their customer support is on the order of Bryston. Fedex frieght broke a grill cover and Legacy sent me a new grill immediately. They also offer 30 day auditioning and a 7 year warranty.

Of course this excellent sound might have to do with my new 7BSST/2. I did not listen to them with my other Bryston's,4b,4bst and 4BSST/2. The Foucus are 95 db at 4 ohms so the 7'S run cool at loud volume levels. I have not swapped out speaker cable I'm just using the new Bryston.

Hey James,why don't you make a CD transport only. I think my Theta is starting to die which is connected to a BDA-1.
Title: Re: Bryston's new speaker cable
Post by: Levi on 3 Jan 2011, 03:36 pm
Congrats!  How do you like the tube preamp? 

The Foucus SE Is a very good speaker for the money. The first thing that grab me was it had more detail than my Infinity Epsilon IRS. The bass wasn't as strong as my Infinity's but the longer I listen to them I realized the bass was more controlled than my Infinity's and acually went deeper.The Infinity's had a little more boom which might be the bass servo control. The Focus SE also has a wider sound stage.I beleive they need at least 200 hours of break in and I have about 60. Buid quality is first rate! Their customer support is on the order of Bryston. Fedex frieght broke a grill cover and Legacy sent me a new grill immediately. They also offer 30 day auditioning and a 7 year warranty.

Of course this excellent sound might have to do with my new 7BSST/2. I did not listen to them with my other Bryston's,4b,4bst and 4BSST/2. The Foucus are 95 db at 4 ohms so the 7'S run cool at loud volume levels. I have not swapped out speaker cable I'm just using the new Bryston.

Hey James,why don't you make a CD transport only. I think my Theta is starting to die which is connected to a BDA-1.