My Capacitor comparisons: Mundorfs, VCap, Sonicap Platinum, Auricap, etc

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Joey B

It's been an interesting time since I last posted this thread . My caps came in from rutubes , they sent me k42's instead of k40's . I'm trying to get them switched to what I ordered .

I also had a Massive Heart attack on 6-6-08 and spent 5 days in the ccu ,  4 blockages ,2 stents and 1 more to go in a few weeks . The had to shock me back 3 times (defib is a bitch).

Suddenly , I have less interest in the last nuance of reproduced music and more in developing a more healthy lifesyle . I'm sure the quest for better sound will eventially resume , But right now I would rather play with the grandkids or kiss my wife .

Joey B

Jon L

It's been an interesting time since I last posted this thread . My caps came in from rutubes , they sent me k42's instead of k40's . I'm trying to get them switched to what I ordered .

I also had a Massive Heart attack on 6-6-08 and spent 5 days in the ccu ,  4 blockages ,2 stents and 1 more to go in a few weeks . The had to shock me back 3 times (defib is a bitch).

Suddenly , I have less interest in the last nuance of reproduced music and more in developing a more healthy lifesyle . I'm sure the quest for better sound will eventially resume , But right now I would rather play with the grandkids or kiss my wife .

Joey B

Dang.  Good luck with your recovery and make sure to take that Plavix!

Your health really is the most important thing..

Joey B

THanks Jon !

Joey B.

lowrider

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Good luck Joey,

This is only an hobby, should be quite low among life's priorities...

bpape

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Wow  :o

Take care of yourself. 

Bryan

Joey B

Good luck Joey,

This is only an hobby, should be quite low among life's priorities...

Thank you Antonio

I'm finding , it's all about balance . No Reply from Rutubes on the k40's .  :lol: Did I really think they would respond ? :duh: The old Joe would be plenty angry , the new Joe shrugs , it's not that important . Think I'll go do that relaxation thingy . :D

Joey B

lowrider

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I use K42 coupling caps recommended by Machmat, he likes them more than K40 for coupling, more lively, I also have K40 on other places, but different sizes, so cannot compare...

Anyway, try the K42, maybe you will have a pleasant surprise, I like mine...  :wink:

Jon L

This whole cap comparison made publication on enjoythemusic!
Capacitor Musings Article By Jon L DIY Audio Kits Reviews

That's not the end, though, since I now have some more interesting caps to test, including Epcos polypropylene in oil, Dynamicap, liquid-teflon injected Russian K72 caps, Penta Labs teflon caps, etc.  More to be posted in the coming weeks :)

Scott F.

Nice job Jon, Welcome aboard!

kyrill

very nice Jon and also you inaugurate the very first number of the new DIY magazine.  :thumb:

Jon L

Epcos (Siemens Matsushita) MKV B25834 polypropylene in oil capacitor



Epcos was founded by Siemens Matsushita, who sold all its interests in 2006.  MKV B25834 is a polypropylene in oil cap like the Siemens MKV radial capacitor talked about previously.  Mundorf silver/oil also happens to be polypropylene in oil, so it was not a great surprise that Epcos sounded somewhat similar to Mundorf silver/oil when directly substituted in Mundorf’s place.  Not that they sounded the same, mind you, but both shared a sense of liquidity and grace, which helped music just flow effortlessly. 

Compared to silver/oil, Epcos had a bit more richness to voices and even more apparent smoothness in the upper-midrange region, but it conceded some sheer resolution and attack.  Silver/oil sounded more like a “modern” film capacitor while Epcos leaned more in the direction of paper-in-oil caps without overt darkness or lack of resolution.  I was especially glad to observe Epcos not to possess overly rounded or slow bass like some paper-in-oils can. 

The Epcos, not surprisingly, sounds VERY much like the Siemens MKV polypropylene in oil capacitor I described earlier.  Both sound balanced, if not extraordinarily extended or obviously “airy” up top.  Human voices have fluidity, richness, and sparkling liveliness that’s so endearing.  If you are a die-hard Teflon or polystyrene fan, you will likely call these poly oil caps a bit slower and not as lit-up, but the fans of the poly oils will call it the opposite. 

A great strategy is to use the Epcos with something like Russian K72 teflon cap somewhere else in the component.  K72’s enthusiastic, bold, slightly upper-midrange-centric sound signature complements the ease of Epcos very well while lending the whole package a dollop of Teflon resolution.  This combo sounds mighty nice, and I must thank “dweekie” for pointing me to these Epcos capacitors.


Fluorinert-Injected Russian K72 Teflon capacitor



Fluorinert is an electrically insulating, inert perfluorocarbon fluid developed by 3M as electronics coolant that some have called “liquid teflon.” These K72 caps were injected with Fluorinert by “Serengetiplains,” who was gracious enough to let me try them. Fluorinert K72 and regular K72 do sound different, but not night-and-day different.  After all, K72 possesses a very unique and distinct sound one can recognize from a mile away. 

What Fluorinert does seem to do is smooth out the upper ranges somewhat while subduing the vividness and spice a dash.  For those who feel K72 is way too forward and brash for their tastes (I don’t...much), this will bring a welcome change, especially if your system has too much sibilance with the stock K72.  The changes brought on by Fluorinert remind me of the sort of changes one hears when applying damping material to equipment chassis.  In fact, the changes are in the similar direction as when I applied EAR isodamp material to the outside of the K72, though Fluorinert seems to have even greater effect.

There are two issues with Fluorinert K72.  One, it is not commercially available, so you have to either DIY it yourself or ask someone to make and sell it to you.  Second, as one may guess from my description, Fluorinert does decrease the apparent upper-air sparkle and a certain “flair” of the stock K72 somewhat.  If your personal tastes or your equipment fancies to such personality of stock K72, then Fluorinert may not necessarily sound “better” to you, proving once again YMMV, etc. 

slbender

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Hey Joey - So True. Only a hobby.

Good luck with keeping Stress Free and Healthy...

They say that music sooths the savage beast ( or breast ).  Well either way, listen to more classical for a better peace of mind. 

( and read one or two of Kevin Trudeau's books.... Natural Cures "They" don't want you to know about... (or More Natural Cures Revealed) ... might help you in some ways.


-Steven L. Bender 


Good luck Joey,

This is only an hobby, should be quite low among life's priorities...

Thank you Antonio

I'm finding , it's all about balance . No Reply from Rutubes on the k40's .  :lol: Did I really think they would respond ? :duh: The old Joe would be plenty angry , the new Joe shrugs , it's not that important . Think I'll go do that relaxation thingy . :D

Joey B

slbender

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Getting back to the sound, mainly in the bass, well this is dependent on the circuitry as well as the cap...

For instance, lets take an input cap... in a tube circuit with a 250K ohm Input Z.  Using a 0.015uF teflon cap we plug in the circuits math: 1 divided by 2 times pi times R times C. so for the 0.015uF we get an Fo -3dB point of: 42.44 Hz. which means you will be 9 dB down at ~21 Hz.  For a larger cap say a 0.1uF we get Fo = 6.36 Hz.  So the smaller cap would have less bass or less deep bass in a comparison, due to value and sound different in the midbass for reasons of value, not cap topology or construction.

So yeah, comparisons between caps of dissimilar values is problematic in that  due to phase differences which extend upwards by 10 times the Fo frequency, whereas the bass and midbass would be affected for the smaller value 0.015uF cap, and only the bass end is affected by cap effects and topology or construction for the larger 0.1uF cap.

Now using these two caps in parallel or say a 0.015uF teflon cap and a 0.1 polypropylene (or paper in oil) might be the best combination, getting the best parts of both construction types.  YMMV.


-Steven

BTW -- Two 0.1's in Series nets you 0.050uF very close to 0.056uF.

Russian FT3 Teflon Capacitor
Russian K72 Teflon Capacitor

Probably the most hyped AND maligned cap out there.  Some praise it while others despise it and write it off completely.  It is my understanding that FT3 and K72 caps are internally the same.

FT3 uses aluminum casing and thin tabs as leadouts while K72 uses thicker steel casing with solid poles as leadouts.  FT3 is glass-encapsulated while K72 is hermetically sealed, and due to the thick steel case, K72 is even heavier than FT3. 

One huge caveat to comparing K72 and FT3 is that the largest value of K72 available seems to be 0.056uF, while FT3 is predominantly available in 0.1 and 0.22uF.  My loaned K72 was the customary 0.056uF and FT3 0.22uF, and yes, the larger cap is “supposed” to be more bassy.  Lo and behold, FT3 does seem to be a little richer in the bass region; however, it was not a huge difference, and there is no way to tell how much of this is due to the uF difference or just the way these caps sound.  This cannot be answered today b/c K72 does not come in 0.1 or 0.22uF and FT3 does not come in 0.056uF. 

These caps do sound similar, but after doing A-B-A-B comparisons using music with and without bass, I can say they do have differences.  K72 adds a pinch of spice and “kick” to the proceedings.  Middle midrange to somewhere in upper midrange seems to sound bit more obviously “detailed” with K72; this leads to a little more tension in the listener’s shoulders when playing poorly-recorded material, i.e. the vast majority of today’s compressed and hotly EQ’d modern fare.  Some may even call it extra grain, glaze, or hardness compared to FT3’s relative softer rendering.  However, with clean recordings, I can see some people even preferring K72 for its more assertive, forward stance.  Combining that little highlighting with a bit tighter control, K72 comes across as hair more dynamic and fun.  Which Teflon cap should you purchase?  Well, both are cheap enough that I think you should try both, but do consider if you wish for a little more smoothness vs. forwardness from current setup.

P.S.  When you tap the stiff steel case of K72, you can hear and feel a hollow “ping” resonance.  I tried applying a strip of EAR Isodamp material, covering about 1/3 of the surface area, which attenuated the sparkle and “detail” just a tad.  I’m not saying one is better than the other, but depending on your tastes, a bit of damping may have a role. 

Bill Baker

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Hello Jon,
 Nice write-up on ETM. I would have to say I agree with 95% of everything you wrote about the capacitors I have experience with which is all of them other than the Russians. The other 5% is simply due to subjective opion and even moreso different applications.

 I will be eager to hear your thoughts on the Penta Labs Teflon caps. A few years back, I had the two designers come to my shop and pay me a visit in person with a handfull of these before they even started production and were still under a different name. They wanted me to evaluate them.

I won't comment on them (don't read into that too deep) as they may have changed a bit since the original prototypes. The only thing I will say is that they were very similar to one of the other Teflon caps in Jon's writings.

Jon L

Hello Jon,
 Nice write-up on ETM. I would have to say I agree with 95% of everything you wrote about the capacitors I have experience with which is all of them other than the Russians. The other 5% is simply due to subjective opion and even moreso different applications.

 I will be eager to hear your thoughts on the Penta Labs Teflon caps. A few years back, I had the two designers come to my shop and pay me a visit in person with a handfull of these before they even started production and were still under a different name. They wanted me to evaluate them.

I won't comment on them (don't read into that too deep) as they may have changed a bit since the original prototypes. The only thing I will say is that they were very similar to one of the other Teflon caps in Jon's writings.

95%?  That's pretty good b/c I can't hardly agree with my own impressions 95% of the time  :green:

The Penta Labs teflon caps are simply huge, but it'll be interesting.

What's even more interesting is I now have some Audience Aura-T teflon caps strapped to my cap cooker  aa

Bill Baker

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Quote
95%?  That's pretty good b/c I can't hardly agree with my own impressions 95% of the time 


I know the feeling Jon. You're not alone. :duh:

Quote
What's even more interesting is I now have some Audience Aura-T teflon caps strapped to my cap cooker


 I was wondering about them as well. Audience was in constant contact with me during their R&D on this cap but never had more than one value of any given value I could use so I never did hear these. I will continue to watch this thread as you continue your quest.

serengetiplains

Fluorinert-Injected Russian K72 Teflon capacitor

What Fluorinert does seem to do is smooth out the upper ranges somewhat while subduing the vividness and spice a dash.  For those who feel K72 is way too forward and brash for their tastes (I don’t...much), this will bring a welcome change, especially if your system has too much sibilance with the stock K72.  The changes brought on by Fluorinert remind me of the sort of changes one hears when applying damping material to equipment chassis.  In fact, the changes are in the similar direction as when I applied EAR isodamp material to the outside of the K72, though Fluorinert seems to have even greater effect.


Jon, my experience of these capacitors parallels yours.  The Fluorinert quite evidently damps a certain high frequency element, included in which, IME, is sibilance, digititis, other nasties and possibly a bit of desireable sparkle.  I did very careful A/B listening tests to these caps against V-Cap teflons and found the Fluorinerts, interestingly, to resolve better ... by a small measure: clearer dynamics, less smearing, greater see-into, more clearly delineated detail.  The A/B tests were 10-30 second repeating segments using iTunes, Empirical Audio USB gear, Tripath and tube amps and nearfield monitors.  I concluded from these tests that the missing HF component was other than that required for the type of resolution differences I heard.  Also interestingly, I heard similar results using Fluorinert-in-paper.

I currently am developing a porous teflon / Fluorinert capacitor, not for commercial sale, using copper plate material.  The K72 version was intriguing enough to green light this experiment.  Should be interesting.

serengetiplains

By the way, the (IME) better resolving characteristics of the Fluorinert caps also made sense in that Fluorinert has a considerably lower (10%) k than teflon.

dweekie

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I didn't realize when I sent the caps over that some MKV's were already tested.  So far, I only know one consistent source for the MKV B25834 caps, and it is http://www.buerklin.com/.

I think they are a good value for higher capacitance caps, but at lower capacitance, it seems the Mundorf may be cheaper to obtain.  They are certeinly worth a try for speaker crossovers.  Peter Daniels of Audiosector has stated several times on diyaudio that these are his preffered crossover caps, and he has quite a collection of caps under his belt. 

Jon L

Penta Labs TFT Teflon Capacitor



Who is Penta Labs?  I’ve heard the name in the past, but mostly in relation to Penta Labs tubes.  According to their website, “Penta Laboratories is a Manufacturer and Distributor of vacuum tubes, capacitors and electron tubes for Broadcast, Industrial, Marine and Avionics applications worldwide.”  They also make a teflon capacitor which I am including here, but this is for general interest only as the Penta cap available  to me falls somewhere between my small and large reference capacitance range. 

In comparison to Russian Teflon capacitors, especially the K72 and Fluorinert K72, Penta initially comes across as smoother and more forgiving but also with less obvious sparkling detail and dynamic pop.  However, Penta seems to take forever to “settle into” a spot after soldering (even after long burn-in before soldering), so continue listening, and one realizes certain things just sound more “right,” especially the piano and other instruments that have significant extreme high-frequency harmonic content. These seem to have finer sonic pixels compared to Russian teflons, but each pixel is not as lit-up, if you can picture that.  Yet there’s no denying they have tons of resolution and purity, so the combination of supple richness and resolution forces you to keep listening to music.  In fact, Penta Labs kind of reminds me of that denser, richer, more elegant school of Teflon sound possessed by Sonicap Platinum capacitors.   
« Last Edit: 19 Aug 2008, 06:17 am by Jon L »