Listening Distance?

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 2086 times.

doggie

Listening Distance?
« on: 13 Aug 2017, 12:58 pm »
I am curious as to how far away you sit from your Omega speakers and how far apart they are when used in room placement

I am about to start moving mine around (again) to experiment. In my current setup I have moved the speakers a lot trying to get better center fill but have not yet been satisfied.

My Super Alnico HO floor standers are about 10 feet apart and probably 11 feet from my seat. Due to room and decoration restraints the speakers are about 3 feet from the front wall and about the same from the side walls. Toe in is just enough to see the inner surfaces. I have some GIK panels behind the speakers and at the first refection point on the ceiling between the seat and the speakers. I am not able to put panels on the side walls.

I realize that every room, system, and person is different but I am looking for a bit of insight...

Thanks!

Carl V

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 571
Re: Listening Distance?
« Reply #1 on: 13 Aug 2017, 01:13 pm »
those distances are a bit greater/larger than 'ideal',
as you have noted. try 8' distances and go form there

JLM

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 10660
  • The elephant normally IS the room
Re: Listening Distance?
« Reply #2 on: 13 Aug 2017, 01:40 pm »
I'd start with visiting cardas.com and clicking on room/system setup.  It worked well for me, but YMMV.  Toe in to taste.  Spread out until you lose the center of the soundstage (will be recording dependent).  Of course it only takes your time to experiment.  With my 8 inch whizzerless single driver speaker I've ended up with a wider setup with speakers crossing in front of the listening position to maximize soundstage width/depth (6 feet away with roughly a 100 degree spread).


Cardas promotes near-field listening which has several advantages for single listener setups:

- minimizes room interaction
- produces a more "involving" experience (versus sound vaguely coming from "over there")
- provides a deeper soundstage
- closer to what the recording/mixing staff hear

roscoe65

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 806
Re: Listening Distance?
« Reply #3 on: 13 Aug 2017, 01:56 pm »
JLM's setup looks a lot like the Audio Physic recommended setup as described in Stereophile a number of years ago.  It virtually takes the sidewalls out of the equation and is a great setup for soundstaging.  AC member GUF has a pair of SAM's that he has been experimenting with as well.  He has recently landed on a nearfield layout despite having a largish room.

Wind Chaser

Re: Listening Distance?
« Reply #4 on: 13 Aug 2017, 06:27 pm »
I am curious as to how far away you sit from your Omega speakers and how far apart they are when used in room placement

I've never owned Omega speakers, but I've seen and heard a few and I've owned a few fullrange single driver speakers over the decades. Regardless, there isn't anything about Omega speakers that makes them much different from most other speakers when it comes to positioning them.

Quote
I am about to start moving mine around (again) to experiment. In my current setup I have moved the speakers a lot trying to get better center fill but have not yet been satisfied.

In this hobby, the room and room arrangement is critical to the final outcome. Time and time again I have seen this gets too little effort and attention from people who think they take this hobby seriously, so congratulations, you are on the right track.

Quote
My Super Alnico HO floor standers are about 10 feet apart and probably 11 feet from my seat. Due to room and decoration restraints the speakers are about 3 feet from the front wall and about the same from the side walls. Toe in is just enough to see the inner surfaces. I have some GIK panels behind the speakers and at the first refection point on the ceiling between the seat and the speakers. I am not able to put panels on the side walls.

If you can pull them another foot or two off the front wall, go for it. Distance from the side walls is sufficient. How close is the listening position to the back wall? Is there any treatment on that wall?

With respect to toe in, there are two considerations that determine how much you'll want. Some speakers, tend to be a little hot on top making them unpleasant to listen to on axis. Less toe in helps mitigate the top end heat but it also leads to less refinement in terms of imaging. There are some exceptions to the rule, but none when it comes to fullrange single drivers. I don't believe that's an issue in your case, so having them tilted on axis may well be preferred.

You stated your goal was to attain better centre fill. First I'll tell you a little about my arrangement and why I have it arranged as such.

My smallish room is some what unique in the sense that it has seven walls, all of them of various lengths that form an overall triangular shape. It's hard to describe, but short of a diagram that's the best I can do. My speakers (similar to yours in the sense that they are a fairly efficient point source, but different in almost every other regard) are positioned almost 4' off the front wall and spread 12' apart. They are both at least 4' away from the side walls, one closer to 6' due to the non linear shape of the room.

Now here's the real kicker, the listening position is only 8' and a few inches (2 or 3 to be exact) from each speaker. That 3:2 ratio didn't come about by some cookie cutter approach. I eschew cookie cutter approaches btw, but they are suitable as a starting point if need be.

So you might wonder how did I end sitting so close to the speakers which are spread so far apart, and wouldn't that arrangent involve some kind of a 'hole in the middle' or at least very poor centre fill? Well, I wish you could hear it for yourself. Short of a front center experience at a live event, this arrangement delivers the most realistic soundstage I have ever heard. From top to bottom, the centre fill is tantamount to everything mixed on the left and right.

In other words, there ain't no hole in the middle, unless of course a recording contains a hole in the middle on account of the engineers failure to put something in the middle! Case in point, a few nights ago I was listening to a song called 'Soul of a Man' by Bruce Cockburn from his album Nothing but a Burning Light. The percussion is panned hard right and the guitar and vocals are panned hard left with nothing in between. The net result is a big gaping hole in the middle making a great catchy song sound like shit. The blame for that falls squarely on the dude who did the lousy mix.

Fortunately in this day and age, few recording are mixed as such. Back when multi track recording was in its infancy, this kind of mixing was more prevalent and even understandable as studio personel had to wrap their heads around this new technology, but we've come along ways since that.

So crappy mixes aside, does your current arrangement really manifest weak center fill? Don't over think this, try listening critically with your eyes closed and see if you can get a good sense of where everything is located. Closing your eyes is important because cutting off all visual input really helps the brain understand what the ears are hearing.

I composed this post on an iPad, so please excuse any spelling or grammatical errors.

doggie

Re: Listening Distance?
« Reply #5 on: 14 Aug 2017, 03:07 am »
Thanks so much for these tips. My first plan will definitely be to pull the speakers out more into the room and closer to my couch.

It had not occurred to me that the near-field approach would have the benefit of minimized reflections.

I will report back...

G Georgopoulos

  • Restricted
  • Posts: 1253
Re: Listening Distance?
« Reply #6 on: 14 Aug 2017, 04:00 am »
Thanks so much for these tips. My first plan will definitely be to pull the speakers out more into the room and closer to my couch.

It had not occurred to me that the near-field approach would have the benefit of minimized reflections.

I will report back...

Near-field or not ,you have to treat the room,echoing  is very sensitive... :green:

JLM

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 10660
  • The elephant normally IS the room
Re: Listening Distance?
« Reply #7 on: 14 Aug 2017, 11:19 am »
The best treatment for echo is a properly shaped room, otherwise you fighting against the laws of physics. 

Yes, trying increasing the width of your speaker setup with various recordings until you lose the center stage.  Pulling the speakers away from the front wall will increase depth of soundstage.  Again toe-in to your taste (usually single driver designs should be aimed directly at the listener).  Take suggestions as starting points and feel free to experiment.  In my case (8 inch whizzerless drivers) it was recommended to add "Late Ceiling Splash" tweeters on the floor behind the speakers to improve treble dispersion, but it had the additional benefit of allowing a wider setup/soundstage.

Agree with Windy regarding room/setup considerations being under appreciated.  If you're "not allowed" to keep the speakers in the acoustically ideal location, mark those spots on the floor for reference.  I alternate between two different pair of speakers and leave tape on the carpet.

roscoe65

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 806
Re: Listening Distance?
« Reply #8 on: 14 Aug 2017, 12:08 pm »
  The near field listening has been the biggest improvement in my system in a long time. Up there with switching to higher efficency speakers, and bass traps. I am sitting at the 38% mark in my 19 foot long room and have everything in front of me. I can pull the monitor speakers out so they are from 24 -44 inches away from the from wall. It seems the best to me out further out and the measurements were better than other placements in my room any where in that range. I have only been focusing on the measurements for the 20 -300 hz. I have one sub to play around with and considering another. I do have so GIK stuff on the front wall between the speaker and experiment with it there or not. Also considering different sound  treatments for my new appreciation of near field listening.


The above link is from AC User GUF's thread on SBIR.  He has a decently-sized room and is listening near-field on one end, with the majority of the room behind him.  He has treated a small portion of the room.  This arrangement has inspired me to so something similar.

doggie

Re: Listening Distance?
« Reply #9 on: 16 Aug 2017, 02:37 am »
The above link is from AC User GUF's thread on SBIR.  He has a decently-sized room and is listening near-field on one end, with the majority of the room behind him.  He has treated a small portion of the room.  This arrangement has inspired me to so something similar.

Pretty cool. I like the mobile room treatment in the lower left hand corner.

I guess that would best be called a woofer though...

pstrisik

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1249
  • Holding pattern in Audio Nirvana in the PNW!
Re: Listening Distance?
« Reply #10 on: 16 Aug 2017, 03:44 pm »
Pretty cool. I like the mobile room treatment in the lower left hand corner.

I guess that would best be called a woofer though...

An apropos comment from someone who calls himself Doggie!   :lol:


.........Peter

Dieterle Tool

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 396
  • I don't know what it is, but I wunt it.
Re: Listening Distance?
« Reply #11 on: 16 Aug 2017, 04:25 pm »
^ thinking the same thing.

I am more interested in the (5) decks airbrushed with jazz legends. Personalized art work and effective deflectors. Nice touch.

-Dieter

seikosha

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 362
Re: Listening Distance?
« Reply #12 on: 16 Aug 2017, 04:39 pm »
^ thinking the same thing.

I am more interested in the (5) decks airbrushed with jazz legends. Personalized art work and effective deflectors. Nice touch.

-Dieter

I think those were part of a Western Edition Skateboard series of decks.  They've done some other Jazz designs too.  There's some cool art stuff done on Skateboards.