AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Selah Audio Owners => Topic started by: Rick Craig on 4 Mar 2011, 03:41 am
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=43594)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=43595)
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Very cool!
Looking forward to more details and finished pics!
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Very cool!
Looking forward to more details and finished pics!
Sure - now moving on to loading 24 woofers and 96 tweeters... 8)
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Lookin good Rick!
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Lookin good Rick!
Come help me assemble them. :lol:
We used a laser to cut the tweeter modules - very cool! 8)
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Come help me assemble them. :lol:
We used a laser to cut the tweeter modules - very cool! 8)
You know I'm there, just say when... I'll bring my sledge hammer and airgun.
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That looks like P.E.'s next to yours. Did you build one? Photo-shop one? What did you think of it?
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That looks like P.E.'s next to yours. Did you build one? Photo-shop one? What did you think of it?
That's the same pair (CBT36) from the PE catalog cover. The designers (Don Keele and Marshall Kay) work in the same shop with me and the new array is a joint project with them. They are still working on the final details of the CBT36 and waiting on the production run of the tweeters. The prototype used a Harman tweeter and they have designed a new unit to replace it.
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Rick
What driver type are you using for the treble?
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These look great! I'm a big line array fan these days and the curve would be nice to avoid the drop off in detail that happens when your ear is near the top of the speaker. Is this speaker ported?
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Rick
What driver type are you using for the treble?
48 3/4" soft dome tweeters per side.
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These look great! I'm a big line array fan these days and the curve would be nice to avoid the drop off in detail that happens when your ear is near the top of the speaker. Is this speaker ported?
The curve and amplitude shading allows us to shape the vertical beamwidth so that there's virtually no difference from sitting to standing for listening. The listening distance has little effect either so you can sit several feet away or listen nearfield with no change in output. In other words, this design will do things no other array can do while still enjoying the benefits of large output capability, huge dynamics, and low distortion.
This design is sealed. The DSP can extend the response for full-range operation or you can add a subwoofer.
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Sure - now moving on to loading 24 woofers and 96 tweeters... 8)
Is that all you got Rick? :rotflmao: What are you going for, the Guiness Record book? Or just the best sounding Array, ever. :dance:
I look foward to seeing the finished product Rick. :thumb:
Cheers,
Robin
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What else do you want? :lol:
This is an order of magnitude better than what you heard at the NE gathering. Don Keele (the famous DB Keele from Audio magazine and the giants in the speaker industry) and Marshall Kay (Audio Artistry) are helping to make it happen.
Is that all you got Rick? :rotflmao: What are you going for, the Guiness Record book? Or just the best sounding Array, ever. :dance:
I look foward to seeing the finished product Rick. :thumb:
Cheers,
Robin
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What else do you want? :lol:
Only to hear them Rick,,,, :drool:
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You know I'm there, just say when... I'll bring my sledge hammer and airgun.
I was thinking more like a soldering iron... :lol:
Making good progress today - hope to have the pair up and running by the end of this week. :thumb:
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I was thinking more like a soldering iron... :lol:
Making good progress today - hope to have the pair up and running by the end of this week. :thumb:
I know you're excited for liftoff since you're been into this project for a long time. PM if you want some help.
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I know you're excited for liftoff since you're been into this project for a long time. PM if you want some help.
Thanks - I'll need some help listening. :wink:
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Thanks - I'll need some help listening. :wink:
I have ears too. :wink:
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I have ears too. :wink:
You're on the list. :thumb:
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Me too, Rick!
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What drivers are you using if you can say? Hiquophon OW1 tweeters?
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Me too, Rick!
No problem - you are on the list.
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What drivers are you using if you can say? Hiquophon OW1 tweeters?
Sorry - cannot divulge that right now. There are very specific requirements for this design; in fact, it's been the most complex speaker that I've ever worked on. The driver selection was based on input from the three of us (Don, Marshall, and I). What I can say is that many hours have been invested and we have sampled different drivers to find the right combination. I think the results will speak for themselves.
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If there's still space... I'd like to join in as well. Thanks Rick!
Dave
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Rick-
Your comment about sampling different drivers - is the RAAL driver out of the picture for a curved line array or will it be considered at some point in the future?
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RAAL= One expensive line array
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If there's still space... I'd like to join in as well. Thanks Rick!
Dave
Absolutely! Will let you know when.
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Rick-
Your comment about sampling different drivers - is the RAAL driver out of the picture for a curved line array or will it be considered at some point in the future?
The RAAL is an option. 8)
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Rick,
What is the projected price point? Will there be a passive version?
Thank you,
Chris
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Rick-
Do you know about what the efficiency will be or is that yet to be determined?
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Depends on how it's configured but anywhere from 88-97db. Keep in mind this doesn't reduce in volume like a point source as you move further away.
Rick-
Do you know about what the efficiency will be or is that yet to be determined?
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Possibly a passive version. We are working out the pricing details and I hope to have that available in a few weeks.
Rick,
What is the projected price point? Will there be a passive version?
Thank you,
Chris
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The pair will be ready for listening today! :thumb:
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I would love to hear, as I'm sure we all would, your general impressions of your new creations. Are you thinking about using shading on straight (non-curved) arrays? Keep up the great work Rick!!!
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I would love to hear, as I'm sure we all would, your general impressions of your new creations. Are you thinking about using shading on straight (non-curved) arrays? Keep up the great work Rick!!!
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It depends on the design. I might be doing a Chicago demo of the new arrays... :wink:
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Music to my ears :P
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Listening sessions start this week. If you're on the list I'll be contacting you soon... :thumb:
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I heard these today, all I can say is WOW! These are some of the best speakers I have ever heard.
Power, dynamics, tonal accuracy, resolution, refinement, imaging, stage depth, so many aspects of the sound were superior to many other speakers I've heard. This is a revolutionary design and a big breakthrough. The "next step" is an appropriate subject line, or maybe the first step in a new chapter.
When I commented to Rick that I was a little surprised at how detailed and refined the treble was despite so many tweeter point sources all with signals in phase which should be smearing the detail. But they weren't, treble was very detailed and refined, even with pro amplifiers. Hardly any power is needed so fancy amps didn't seem so critical in this active amped configuration. Bass was likewise detailed, solid and punchy, and even held good center image at low frequencies when I moved way off to the side.
Tone does not change at all when I stood up or moved toward the speakers. Left to right movement reveals a slight tonal change but I only noticed it on one trumpet recording with which I am very familiar. Soundstage is more realistic than any other speaker I've heard, especially impressive with instruments in the far rear of the soundstage. Rick played a track from Mapletree sampler with a bari sax playing way back behind the guitar and bass up front. With a compression-free, live stereo recording it was as if he was standing in the back of the shop playing his horn, the illusion was convincing. Full symphony orchestra likewise has a very realistic scale. Huge hall reverb is reproduced perfectly and no shortage of dynamic power or sustained high SPL. Presto on Shostakovich 9th Sympony showed off the ease with which the big speakers peel away all the layers and lay it out in front of you for easy listening. Blasting french horns and solo woodwinds presented equally well. It was playing louder than live, otherwise the illusion is very much like live symphony about 10 rows back. But of course, turning it up is better than live. Awesome!
Flutes and piccolos that sometimes overpower a room sounded just like they do live. they did not overload the room. You get the dynamic peak, but it does not hurt like it does with any other normal speaker I've tried. They sounded like they do with the live symphony.
Don played a funky disc with electric bass and drums to show off the dynamics and bass transient ability. I love dynamic acoustic music, but the dynamics attainable with electric instruments is beyond my tolerance and these were overpowering to me. For rock or synth music these speakers could rip your head off.
I felt the music come alive on every track, always tapping my feet and moving around with the music. These aren't just technical curiosities they carry a tune. Music is very involving and "musical."
The bass clarity was similar to my old Ushers with twin Eton carbon woofers. On Paul Chambers' solo at the beginning of So What I could hear all the rumble and wonderful bass detail and room echo that I could on the Ushers, which has been the best ever for that track. These need a subwoofer to give full feeling in the lowest octave. But we listened with no sub and didn't feel we were missing anything on the music tracks.
Congrats to Don and to Rick and the rest of the team for this masterpiece. I hope you're able to "bottle it" to share with the rest of us. Thanks for the chance to hear the early version and to meet Don.
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Good to get some feedback from the initial listening sessions.
Sounds like you had a good time Rich and that this speaker is worth serious consideration for those interested. I've wanted to hear one of Rick's speakers for awhile now, hopefully this can be the first.
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These are using a DEQX rather than a passive crossover, right?
Richidoo how would you compare these to the Mejor?
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I heard these today, all I can say is WOW! These are some of the best speakers I have ever heard.
Congrats to Don and to Rick and the rest of the team for this masterpiece. I hope you're able to "bottle it" to share with the rest of us. Thanks for the chance to hear the early version and to meet Don.
And you didn't bring a camera to document this momentous occasion ? :o
Fer shame, fer shame,,,,, and I'm totally jeolous too. :lol: Thanks for the appitizer Richdoo. :drool:
Cheers,
Robin
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These are using a DEQX rather than a passive crossover, right?
Richidoo how would you compare these to the Mejor?
Yes, active with a DEQX. The DSP capability of the DEQX allows us to do things not possible with a passive crossover.
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Photos may not have been allowed in order to protect the innocent.
I, for one, cannot wait to see them.
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Anymore details/pictures? Curious minds want to know...
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The design appears similar to the curved speaker stacks hanging from the ceiling in arena concerts these days. I wonder if that is the inspiration? For that reason, I would imagine these would be fabulous for live recordings.
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No, this uses "shading" which controls the beam width that older Pro curved stacks don't typically use. Keele shows this along with the difference it makes in his presentation.
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Anymore details/pictures? Curious minds want to know...
Here's a picture (unfinished side panels) ...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=44910)
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What are the benefits of the curved front?
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Saena's come to mind- if I spelled that right- one of HP's in residence speakers.
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Anymore details/pictures? Curious minds want to know...
(12) 5" woofers and (48) 3/4" dome tweeters per side. A pair can be driven with 4-16 amplifier channels depending on whether passive shading is used or not. We are using a DEQX but other DSP crossovers can be used as well.
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These are using a DEQX rather than a passive crossover, right?
Richidoo how would you compare these to the Mejor?
Been a long time since I heard Mejor, but they remain my favorite Selah speaker for my needs. I was glad to learn that they are still available for ordering should I ever come down from my DIY treehouse. I think that they are a little more refined tonally as you would expect from their "best in the world" driver quality. But the arrays are very refined and played violin harmonic overtones, huge wailing brass sections and quiet woodwind sections perfectly as well as Tierney Sutton's ballad voice with grace and subtlety. They can play small and sweet if called, whereas the Mejors could never come close to the dynamic power or presentation scale of the arrays on bigger music. As I see it, the Mejor is intended for ultimate stereo listening in a small/medium size room or large residential room with the sub, while the arrays could do a huge home theater/music room, or a very realistic full size symphony orchestra in a ballroom with hundreds of people. Think Ray Kimber's OmniMike demo at RMAF, but you wouldn't have to use your imagination. Are you listening Ray?? :eyebrows:
Each midwoofer on the array is in its own separate box, held in the curve by the sidewalls.
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(12) 5" woofers and (48) 3/4" dome tweeters per side. A pair can be driven with 4-16 amplifier channels depending on whether passive shading is used or not. We are using a DEQX but other DSP crossovers can be used as well.
How long until an Illuminator version is available? :D
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I seriously want to hear those. I think I recognize the woofer, but can't make out the tweeter in that pic.
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The design appears similar to the curved speaker stacks hanging from the ceiling in arena concerts these days. I wonder if that is the inspiration? For that reason, I would imagine these would be fabulous for live recordings.
There are various curved arrays on the market but this design uses the ground plane (floor) to effectively double the length of the array. There are also some other differences as well.
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The easiest way to understand the technology is to look closely at the drawings in Keele's presentation. He has some CAD drawings that I think illustrate the concept very nicely. Its pretty ingenious if you ask me.
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Aforementioned presentation (http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Keele%20-%20Introduction%20to%20CBT%20Loudspeaker%20Arrays%20(AES-ASA-BAS%20presentation,%20Jan.%2014,%202010).pdf)
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No, this uses "shading" which controls the beam width that older Pro curved stacks don't typically use. Keele shows this along with the difference it makes in his presentation.
JBL and others are using DSP "steering" to control the coverage of their high end pro arrays. This is an elegant way to achieve the same results.
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That is true. I was referring more to traditional J arrays, which often are not shaded, unless of course they are JBL or (QSC?).
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Interesting presentation, well above my head most of it. Quite exciting direction for implementation in the home.
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What are the benefits of the curved front?
The curved front and shading work together to produce smoother vertical frequency response and better driver phase coherence. This sets it apart from any other type of straight array design.
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How long until an Illuminator version is available? :D
You mean Illuminator woofers and RAAL tweeters? :wink:
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Since I have spent a lot of time cultivating a preamp and amplifier that I like, how would someone like me utilize a design like this? Is it impossible?
I am not very familiar with DSPs and the like, and don't understand how they work.
Would it be a waste or completely impossible to use these in a passive configuration since you couldn't utilize the digital crossovers to garner the desired effects? :scratch:
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I think one of the coolest aspects of this design is how it controls the floor and ceiling bounce, which is a pretty big deal in a typical domestic environment. Look at the comparison of the Revel to the CBT array at 3m distances in the presentation. Look at the huge dip in response of the Revel right in the presence region where hearing acuity is at its best. No such dip for the CBT array which proves this point.
Secondly, the power law of this array means that for a stated 1w/1m sensitivity, the CBT is actually much more "efficient" because the volume drops more gradually then a traditional speaker. This means less amp power, but also more uniform volume across multiple seating locations, especially depth wise (great for HT).
My only complaint about the concept is that it doesn't explicitly control the horizontal directivity** like modern waveguide speakers do (which typically do less for the vertical). So its a trade of hor. dir. for vertical dir. Which matters more depends on who you ask.
** hor. dir. seems to be controlled more from driver choice, xo topology and steering for forward lobe.
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Since I have spent a lot of time cultivating a preamp and amplifier that I like, how would someone like me utilize a design like this? Is it impossible?
I am not very familiar with DSPs and the like, and don't understand how they work.
Would it be a waste or completely impossible to use these in a passive configuration since you couldn't utilize the digital crossovers to garner the desired effects? :scratch:
A passive version might be possible but I can't really give you a good answer without doing some further testing.
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Interesting note - the shop door is 20 ft. from the nearest array speaker. From the time you enter the door and walk to the array the volume level doesn't change! You can also sit 5-6 ft. away and have a perfect soundstage - no large listening room needed.
As far as the horizontal directivity there is some control beyond what the drivers and crossover supply but I'll let Don and Earl argue the math on that. If the goal is to maximize the speaker's power response for the best room interface then I think the CBT is going to prevail. The room we have it in for demos is very reflective and untreated but the sound is still impressive. In a normal home environment it would be even better.
I think one of the coolest aspects of this design is how it controls the floor and ceiling bounce, which is a pretty big deal in a typical domestic environment. Look at the comparison of the Revel to the CBT array at 3m distances in the presentation. Look at the huge dip in response of the Revel right in the presence region where hearing acuity is at its best. No such dip for the CBT array which proves this point.
Secondly, the power law of this array means that for a stated 1w/1m sensitivity, the CBT is actually much more "efficient" because the volume drops more gradually then a traditional speaker. This means less amp power, but also more uniform volume across multiple seating locations, especially depth wise (great for HT).
My only complaint about the concept is that it doesn't explicitly control the horizontal directivity** like modern waveguide speakers do (which typically do less for the vertical). So its a trade of hor. dir. for vertical dir. Which matters more depends on who you ask.
** hor. dir. seems to be controlled more from driver choice, xo topology and steering for forward lobe.
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One thing I've been wondering about is...with so many drivers is there an issue with playing soft? Now I know that these are intended for larger rooms and effortless dynamics, but what about low level dynamics? I would think that with so many drivers there is sort of a minimum input signal that is required to put all those drivers into motion. Do you need a certain minimum signal to overcome the rest mass of all those drivers before they start produce sound? Kind of like, you don't hear anything then it's like a switch is flipped and the make sound, but louder than what you would get with a simpler system.
Probably way off base, I know they have good efficiency, but I can't seem to wrap my mind about all those drivers just barely vibrating and still maintaining an accurate sound at low levels.
Chuck
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Actually a larger room isn't needed for these but they will fill a big space if needed. Low level detail is excellent because the distortion is so low. Maybe I need to bring a pair up to Ohio for demo?
One thing I've been wondering about is...with so many drivers is there an issue with playing soft? Now I know that these are intended for larger rooms and effortless dynamics, but what about low level dynamics? I would think that with so many drivers there is sort of a minimum input signal that is required to put all those drivers into motion. Do you need a certain minimum signal to overcome the rest mass of all those drivers before they start produce sound? Kind of like, you don't hear anything then it's like a switch is flipped and the make sound, but louder than what you would get with a simpler system.
Probably way off base, I know they have good efficiency, but I can't seem to wrap my mind about all those drivers just barely vibrating and still maintaining an accurate sound at low levels.
Chuck
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Maybe I need to bring a pair up to Ohio for demo?
Bring em to Texas Rick! Lone Star Audio Fest?
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Bring em to Texas Rick! Lone Star Audio Fest?
I've suggested that to my partners. Thanks for reminding me!
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Hope you guys can make it. It's a really interesting design and reading through the PowerPoint really piques interest in hearing it.
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Here's a great deal on a DEQX ...
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatran&1306961418&/DEQX-PDC-2.6P-Digital-Correcti
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I had the privilege of listening to the curved line arrays last Thursday night. I read over Rich’s review and agree with everything he stated. I’m not sure what I can add that wasn’t already addressed. A couple of things I will mention are the speakers are probably the best I have ever heard even considering the room they are in (Rick’s picture should get my point across – certainly not an ideal set-up with respect to room acoustics and the stuff in the shop) and that the electronics in use were stacked on top of each other and sitting on a stool. I have no doubt they will sound even better in a suitable room with some attention to equipment isolation and set-up - something I would really like to hear. The only reservation I had was the treble but I believe this to be a personal bias for me in preferring a slightly rolled off treble – I have the same reservation about my present system. That said it is worth noting that the DEQX unit will allow tailoring the sound so I feel confident that my personal bias could be accommodated. Unfortunately we did not have the time to experiment with the DEQX unit. This was my first experience with a line array design - I was very impressed with the soundstage and imaging - definitely the best I have heard. The curved line arrays are an impressive design that should be a winner – it is certainly worth the effort to go and take a listen.
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What ever happened with these?
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=43594)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=43595)
With some of the drivers being so close to the floor, and others aimed at the ceiling, would this not cause more room interaction? :scratch:
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What ever happened with these?
Setting them up soon for a demo in Florida. :thumb:
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With some of the drivers being so close to the floor, and others aimed at the ceiling, would this not cause more room interaction? :scratch:
The beamwidth is controlled by the curve and tapering of the output along the line. This actually makes it less sensitive to room issues. Don Keele is the genius behind this and you can read more here...http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/CBT.php
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Rick,
Now THESE are the speakers you should bring to RMAF this year :P
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45" tall array (woofer base is 14"x14"). Ten 4" woofers and thirty tweeters per side.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=48319)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=48320)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=48321)
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!
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Rick,
Now THESE are the speakers you should bring to RMAF this year :P
Don Keele and Marshall Kay will be there showing their CBT arrays in the Audio Artistry room. Let me know if you get a chance to hear them.
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That's great news. They will be a big hit.
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That's great news. They will be a big hit.
Maybe we can do a meeting when the pair with RAAL ribbons is finished?
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Maybe we can do a meeting when the pair with RAAL ribbons is finished?
I'd come up for them!
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Absolutely!
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Curva is in progress with the RAAL ribbons. I've had some questions about the possibility of a passive crossover and will investigate that today.
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Glad to see so much going on with these. I've got a real itch to hear what these can do after reading so much about CBTs and the PE/Audio Artistry pair. Can't wait for kits (yours or PEs) to become available... I feel my wallet getting lighter already.
Really like your stacked box approach to the array, seems that would make home building easier than bending a front panel, provided you can cut the bevels right on the boxes.
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Glad to see so much going on with these. I've got a real itch to hear what these can do after reading so much about CBTs and the PE/Audio Artistry pair. Can't wait for kits (yours or PEs) to become available... I feel my wallet getting lighter already.
Really like your stacked box approach to the array, seems that would make home building easier than bending a front panel, provided you can cut the bevels right on the boxes.
The Curva uses a segmented baffle which works very well. We originally thought of the modular approach for flexibility but it is more difficult and costly to build. With the CBT36 a single baffle can be bent due to the low weight of the drivers and the minimal minimal amount of deflection for each section of drivers.
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Here's some testing of a CBT array...
http://audioartistry.com/brochures/B&W%20801%20vs.%20CBT36%20Ground-Plane%20Measurements%20v8.1.pdf
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The Next Step (or 12x48 array) is also available with a passive crossover now!
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The 12x48 (Next Step Array) response and impedance measurements are now available and kits are shipping. Center channel plans in the works... :thumb:
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The 12x48 (Next Step Array) response and impedance measurements are now available and kits are shipping. Center channel plans in the works... :thumb:
When will the info be on the website?
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I'll try to have it on there this weekend.
When will the info be on the website?
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When will the info be on the website?
Here's the first part of the information with the measurements...http://www.selahaudio.com/id279.html
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Here's the first part of the information with the measurements...http://www.selahaudio.com/id279.html
What a tease :lol:
Looks very good so far.... 8)
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Here are pictures from a kit pair built by Ulf in Norway... :thumb:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61586)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61588)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61587)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61589)
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Nice! Now he only needs a 3rd one on it's side as a center. :D
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Nice! Now he only needs a 3rd one on it's side as a center. :D
A full arc center channel is the next project... :wink:
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These look awesome. I would love to hear a pair. Anybody in the GTA order some?
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These look awesome. I would love to hear a pair. Anybody in the GTA order some?
Is that the Toronto area?
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GTA = Greater Toronto Area. Toronto types like to think that everyone knows that... :wink:
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GTA = Greater Toronto Area. Toronto types like to think that everyone knows that... :wink:
You need to have the first pair in the GTA :wink:
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Nice! Now he only needs a 3rd one on it's side as a center. :D
And here it is. :D
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66795)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=66796)
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Nice Work