V2 Auto Calibration

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kernelbob

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V2 Auto Calibration
« on: 24 Jun 2014, 07:48 pm »
I'm planning on getting an LDR3B control unit, but I plan on connecting it to amps that are meant to be left on 24x7.  They take forever to reach their best sound after being turned of and consume only about 40 watts at idle.

I'm concerned about the requirement that the power amps need to be turned off in order for the autocalibration process to run.  I assume that if the amps were left on, that audible output is generated during the calibration process.  Is this the case?

If so, this presents a problem for me since I don't want to have to insert a signal bypass switch or to disconnect the balanced inputs to the amps every time the system is "shut down" and then reconnect them when it start's up.

I seem to recall that the autocalibration runs periodically when not playing music (once per hour?).  Does the LDR3B really need to continuously autocalibrate when not in use?  Can that process be on-demand?  I would think that unless the LDRs begin to drift quickly, that an hourly calibration is overkill.

Thanks for your help.

tortugaranger

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Re: V2 Auto Calibration
« Reply #1 on: 24 Jun 2014, 08:25 pm »
I'm planning on getting an LDR3B control unit, but I plan on connecting it to amps that are meant to be left on 24x7.  They take forever to reach their best sound after being turned of and consume only about 40 watts at idle.

I'm concerned about the requirement that the power amps need to be turned off in order for the autocalibration process to run.  I assume that if the amps were left on, that audible output is generated during the calibration process.  Is this the case?  If so, this presents a problem for me since I don't want to have to insert a signal bypass switch or to disconnect the balanced inputs to the amps every time the system is "shut down" and then reconnect them when it start's up.

Sorry about the misunderstanding, but power amps DO NOT have to be turned off during the auto calibration process. There may be exceptions in the case of certain amps which tend to hum when disconnected from their preamp.  Amps should only be turned off prior to connecting/disconnecting the V2 to/from its power source which is different than just turning the V2 on/off while it remains connected to a live power source. No audible output can generated during the Auto-Cal process because the audio outputs are physically disconnected via relays.

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I seem to recall that the autocalibration runs periodically when not playing music (once per hour?).  Does the LDR3B really need to continuously autocalibrate when not in use?  Can that process be on-demand?  I would think that unless the LDRs begin to drift quickly, that an hourly calibration is overkill.

When  the V2 is "on" it never (it can't) auto-calibrates regardless if music is playing or not. It's only when the V2 is "off" (but still connected to power) that auto calibration occurs after it disconnects from the audio inputs/outputs.

With the current control scheme the V2 autocals roughly 4 times per hour. Without a doubt this is overkill insofar as it probably takes days, weeks if not months for LDRs to drift perceptibly. The thought behind this was the unit is just sitting there "off" so why not if it's doesn't create a problem doing so. To the extent this does interfere with normal operation/use of a system, this could be changed to on-demand or switch between on-demand and auto. It would be a simple matter to modify/update the control software accordingly.

kernelbob

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Re: V2 Auto Calibration
« Reply #2 on: 25 Jun 2014, 01:21 am »
@tortugaranger, you mentioned that amps should only be turned off prior to connecting/disconnecting the V2 to/from its power source which is different than just turning the V2 on/off while it remains connected to a live power source. No audible output can be generated during the Auto-Cal process because the audio outputs are physically disconnected via relays."

Re: disconnecting/connecting the V2 from/to its power source, in the event that the power amp that the V2 is connected to is on, does this generate a potentially damaging surge or it is at a moderate level which may only be a mild annoyance.  I'm thinking that if I wanted to fully power off the V2 (say until the next evening's listening session), how much of a voltage surge is generated.

Re: during the Auto-Cal process the audio outputs are physically disconnected via relays, my understanding was that there are no switches or relays in the signal path and that even the input selection is handled by LDRs.  Are there relays in the signal path?

Thanks for your help.

tortugaranger

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Re: V2 Auto Calibration
« Reply #3 on: 25 Jun 2014, 01:33 pm »
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Re: disconnecting/connecting the V2 from/to its power source, in the event that the power amp that the V2 is connected to is on, does this generate a potentially damaging surge or it is at a moderate level which may only be a mild annoyance.  I'm thinking that if I wanted to fully power off the V2 (say until the next evening's listening session), how much of a voltage surge is generated.

The guidance to not have your amp powered up as the V2 is connected/disconnected from its power source is a matter of abundant caution. This was true for the V1 board as well even though it did not have autocal. Autocal adds another dimension of uncertainly when power is removed from the board. When power is removed, the LDRs are no longer under control as voltage drains from the board and their resistance eventually rises into millions of ohms. While this occurs quickly, it's not instantaneous. Pulling power from the V1 or V2 boards while actively playing music will result in a momentary surge in volume level  as the resistance of the shunt LDR jumps up (increases volume) even as the series LDR is doing the same (reducing volume). In our development environment, I mistreat the V2 and my amp/speakers horribly and do everything wrong routinely just to test the limits of what can possibly go wrong. I've never been able to damage anything. The worst I've witnessed is a momentary surge in volume level along with a pop not unlike hitting a bad spot in a vinyl record at high volume. Hence the simple cautionary guidance:  shut off your amp before connecting/disconnecting the V2 from power. The V2 provides a 12 VDC Trigger Out signal to help in accomplishing this. If your amp doesn't have a 12V Trigger Input there are numerous voltage triggered power outlet devices that are available. I personally use an earlier version of this PSAudio product which I highly recommend (http://www.psaudio.com/products/dectet-power-center/). Not surprisingly,  you can find both cheaper and more expensive alternatives - this is audio after all!  :wink:

Lastly, interposing the IO3 input relay board between the audio signals and the V2 provides further mitigation to any volume surge upon removal of power from the V2 since the relays will open very quickly when power is removed. Much quicker than LDRs used as switches.

To summarize, the recommended operating practice for the V2, and for that matter all of our LDRx preamp products, is to plug them in and leave them connected to power. Turn them on to use them, turn them off when you're done. Otherwise leave them plugged in/powered up. If you must cycle power on/off, just shut your amp off first.

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Re: during the Auto-Cal process the audio outputs are physically disconnected via relays, my understanding was that there are no switches or relays in the signal path and that even the input selection is handled by LDRs.  Are there relays in the signal path?

The V2 employs relays for signal switching as does our IO3 relay board. The decision to use relays instead of LDRs as switches with the V2 was made to minimize uncertainty around development of the auto calibration. In hindsight this was probably a misplaced concern but we were biting off a major project challenge with autocal and wanted absolute physical disconnection of the audio signals (input and output) during autocal. We felt this was best done using relays. Our existing line of LDR3/LDR6 finished preamps use LDRs for input switching. We may go back to using LDR switching in future iterations of our V2 and IO3 but for now they utilize relays. There's no sonic difference.

bonsai

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Re: V2 Auto Calibration
« Reply #4 on: 25 Jun 2014, 02:37 pm »
I have a higher end power strip that is grounded.  I have my tube amps and a couple sources plugged into it.  I keep them all on so that I can just turn on/off by the power strip switch.  I was planning to buy your passive pre and just do the same with that using the power strip.  Bad idea?

tortugaranger

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Re: V2 Auto Calibration
« Reply #5 on: 25 Jun 2014, 03:04 pm »
I have a higher end power strip that is grounded.  I have my tube amps and a couple sources plugged into it.  I keep them all on so that I can just turn on/off by the power strip switch.  I was planning to buy your passive pre and just do the same with that using the power strip.  Bad idea?

In all likelihood that will work ok since everything is shutting down at the same time. You'll only know for sure by trying it. It's just not the best idea. The design of our LDRx products is based on the assumption that the preamp remains connected to power (like a clock radio) and is ready to be turned on/off via remote or the encoder switch whenever you want to. AutoCal can only work in the background when the unit is powered but turned off.  My recommended best practice is to always power up preamps/sources first, then the amp. No surprises. Opposite when switching power off. My own experiences powering everything all on or all off simultaneously (other than integrated amps) is that unpleasant things can happen that are easily avoided. I'm talking about thumps and pops etc. and to audio gear generally. With integrated amps all of that is tightly coordinated internally and the amp is muted until everything else is ready. With components nothing is coordinated unless you make it so.

tortugaranger

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Re: V2 Auto Calibration
« Reply #6 on: 25 Jun 2014, 03:19 pm »
Based on various feedback, I'm considering possible changes to how AutoCal is enabled. Here's what I have in mind.

Auto Mode - AutoCal runs periodically when the unit if off just like it does currently

Manual Mode - AutoCal only runs when manually started. It runs through one cycle then quits.

This could be handled via inputs to the Center/Enter button on the remote when the unit is off with status feedback via LED flashes and/or Display Module.

Here's the command logic (only when unit is off):

1) AutoCal is off & in Manual Mode - Press Enter once starts Manual AutoCal cycle 
2) Press Enter again and AutoCal switches to Auto Mode and cycles accordingly
3) Pres Enter yet again and AutoCal quits and switches back to Manual Mode

If power is removed, it remembers the last mode it was in (Auto or Manual) when power is turned back on the next time. 

Any comments or suggestions welcome.

robertopisa

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Re: V2 Auto Calibration
« Reply #7 on: 28 Jun 2014, 07:45 am »
Hello Morten,

an interesting feature could be that when the unit is turned on, Autocal is completely inactive. Not only the auto calibration process is not run, but the entire circuit machinery (processor, DAC) is turned off and does not get any power. In other words, unit on means that only LDRs and the controller are active; when unit is off (and connected to power) only the auto cal circuit is on. This combines the advantage of calibration with the purity of sound that one wants to get from LDRs. I am aware that this is challenging, just saying that it would be nice to have it in the future.

Thanks
-R

tortugaranger

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Re: V2 Auto Calibration
« Reply #8 on: 28 Jun 2014, 12:15 pm »
an interesting feature could be that when the unit is turned on, Autocal is completely inactive. Not only the auto calibration process is not run, but the entire circuit machinery (processor, DAC) is turned off and does not get any power. In other words, unit on means that only LDRs and the controller are active; when unit is off (and connected to power) only the auto cal circuit is on. This combines the advantage of calibration with the purity of sound that one wants to get from LDRs. I am aware that this is challenging, just saying that it would be nice to have it in the future.

AutoCal is both inactive and disconnected when the unit is on. The signals that AutoCal needs to work are actually physically disconnected and requires relays to be energized to connect the audio signals to the AutoCal circuitry.  Thus, AutoCal remains outside of the signal path when the unit is on and handling audio. AutoCal does remain connected to the processor at all times but the analog-to-digital conversion (ADC) system is off when AutoCal is off.  On the other hand, the LDR control circuit (processor/memory -> DAC - >  Opamp -> LDR) is always on and functioning while the unit is connected to power except for the first 5 seconds right after power is applied as the unit boots up. And with the Rev 2 bootloader the audio I/O is isolated during that 5 second boot up period.

I realize as I write this that it's rather complex and messy to grasp without understanding the overall design. The key message is that AutoCal is indeed out of both the audio signal path as well as the LDR control path when the V2 is connected to power,  turned on and handling music.  AutoCal only enters the picture when the V2 is connected to power but turned off and thus isolated from the audio I/O. :thumb:

Cheers,
Morten

bonsai

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Re: V2 Auto Calibration
« Reply #9 on: 28 Jun 2014, 12:40 pm »
Regarding the  "I'm talking about thumps and pops etc. and to audio gear generally." with the power on of all components at the same time

Running my system last night it dawned on me...  My tube amps take about 7 to 10 seconds to fully power up and get running.  I don't think I'll have a problem.

robertopisa

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Re: V2 Auto Calibration
« Reply #10 on: 30 Jun 2014, 08:21 am »
Great job Morten! It's good to know how it works, thanks.

As for the AutoCal cycles, I think running so frequently it is probably an overkill. Once we place the unit in a room, we do not change it frequently. Or we may change suddenly one day to let friends try it. What about the following adaptive strategy?

I assume that your calibration data is similar to mic calibration, except that the range is different. Given two calibrations, let D be the maximum displacement in dB over the range. You can consider that two calibrations are indistinguishable if D is below a certain threshold (e.g. 0.1dB).

Autocal could keep the last three measurements. Say it starts running one measurement per day or half-day.
- If the D value of the new measurement is below the threshold, it discards the oldest measurement among the three, and adds the recent one.
- If D is above the threshold, it starts measuring more frequently until the last three measurements become more stable, and so it goes back running one measurement per day or half-day.

This strategy increases the number of measurements when some environmental condition changes; ontherwise, it performs just one or two measurement per day when the conditions are stable. Probably the whole unit is less stressed in this way and the outcome is roughly the same.

Cheers
-R


AutoCal is both inactive and disconnected when the unit is on. The signals that AutoCal needs to work are actually physically disconnected and requires relays to be energized to connect the audio signals to the AutoCal circuitry.  Thus, AutoCal remains outside of the signal path when the unit is on and handling audio. AutoCal does remain connected to the processor at all times but the analog-to-digital conversion (ADC) system is off when AutoCal is off.  On the other hand, the LDR control circuit (processor/memory -> DAC - >  Opamp -> LDR) is always on and functioning while the unit is connected to power except for the first 5 seconds right after power is applied as the unit boots up. And with the Rev 2 bootloader the audio I/O is isolated during that 5 second boot up period.

I realize as I write this that it's rather complex and messy to grasp without understanding the overall design. The key message is that AutoCal is indeed out of both the audio signal path as well as the LDR control path when the V2 is connected to power,  turned on and handling music.  AutoCal only enters the picture when the V2 is connected to power but turned off and thus isolated from the audio I/O. :thumb:

Cheers,
Morten

tortugaranger

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Re: V2 Auto Calibration
« Reply #11 on: 30 Jun 2014, 12:19 pm »
This strategy increases the number of measurements when some environmental condition changes; ontherwise, it performs just one or two measurement per day when the conditions are stable. Probably the whole unit is less stressed in this way and the outcome is roughly the same.

As this discussion on AutoCal has evolved, I think it would be helpful to reiterate a few points and clarify certain misconceptions to wit:

1) AutoCal can only run when the V2 is turned off while connected to power.
2) When AutoCal runs, the audio input/ouput signals are physically disconnected from the V2. Some amps (while turned on) may hum when their audio input/output are disconnected. The Job 225 comes to mind as a specific example.  Thus, having AutoCal run all the time when the V2 is turned off may be unacceptable for a subset of users who wish to keeps their amps on all the time.
3) The V2 absolutely does not "need" to have AutoCal to run continuously when the unit is off. This was simply a default approach as in "why not, it's off, just let AutoCal run, can't hurt...".  There's no definitive guidance as to how often AutoCal needs to run to keep the V2 calibrated. Once a month may be sufficient. But if needed, it's there.
4) AutoCal does not in any way "stress" the V2 when it's active. One possible exception to this statement is that each AutoCal cycle writes the results into flash memory and after about 1,000,000 writes flash memory can wear out. But we're talking over 20 years of continuous AutoCal for that to happen. No worries.
5) AutoCal, at least as initially conceived and implemented, does not use measurements and related criteria to determine if/when AutoCal is necessary. It simply runs when told which initially at least was all the time when the V2 was turned off. It's now been updated to wait 5 minutes between each cycle.  In this respect, AutoCal is "dumb".  Introducing a "smart" approach is conceptually interesting but would take considerable testing to prove out its efficacy and even then this begs the question of what problem is this "smart" solution actually solving?

Perhaps the simplest and most flexible approach to AutoCal is to make it possible for the user to decide how best to employ it. I mentioned something along these lines in a prior post. Here's an updated summary.

When the V2 is off and AutoCal is disabled....

* Pressing Enter button on remote - Enables AutoCal
   a) starts a single AutoCal cycle
   b) after completion, unit waits 5 minutes, and then starts the next cycle.....process repeats indefinitely
   c) You can tell AutoCal is enabled because the decimal point on the DM1 Display Module remains lit even when the V2 is off and blinks anytime an AutoCal cycle is active.
* Pressing Enter button (again) - Disables AutoCal
  a) AutoCal is off and never runs unless re-enabled
  b) You can tell AuoCal is disabled because the decimal point on the DM1 Display Module is off. 

tortugaranger

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Re: V2 Auto Calibration
« Reply #12 on: 30 Jun 2014, 12:36 pm »
Given the ongoing interest in this topic, I split it off from the "V2 Software Updates" sticky.

robertopisa

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Re: V2 Auto Calibration
« Reply #13 on: 1 Jul 2014, 11:21 am »
It makes sense indeed to split the post, thanks.

The points that you clarified are fine to me, I can control in this way when Autocal is run.

Cheers
-R

tortugaranger

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Re: V2 Auto Calibration
« Reply #14 on: 1 Jul 2014, 01:12 pm »
The points that you clarified are fine to me, I can control in this way when Autocal is run.

To be clear, the ability to enable/disable AutoCal as described in post #12 has yet to be implemented but will be in a future software release and in V2s shipped going forward.

tortugaranger

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Re: V2 Auto Calibration
« Reply #15 on: 3 Jul 2014, 06:25 pm »
After considering the results of our ongoing development work with the V2, customer feedback, and inputs here and elsewhere, we've made some changes to how we approach Auto Calibration on the V2 Preamp Controller board. Existing owners of the V2 will receive an email and additional detail some of which I'm posting below. I'm reasonably certain that this will define AutoCal going forward. The changes are effective as of 7.2.14 going forward.

Original Auto Calibration - The original idea of was to have auto calibration run continuously anytime the V2 was turned off but still connected to power. While total overkill in terms of necessity, the thought behind this was basically... "who cares if AutoCal runs all the time when the V2 is off as long as it doesn't cause problems". When AutoCal becomes active, the V2 disconnects both the audio input and output. We've determined that this may cause certain amps to hum (the Job 225 for example) while also possibly causing momentary noise on the audio output if the users amp is still on. While there are certainly procedural work-arounds to avoid this (as in always turn your amp off first before turning off the V2) we concluded that this was totally unsatisfactory and had to be resolved. As a side note, to date we've had no reported problems with auto calibration in terms of the AutoCal properly calibrating the LDRs. 

Changes To Auto Calibration - With the release of Rev 1.1.0 of the uploadable V2 software, we have made the following changes to how auto calibration is run:

* AutoCal now runs only when manually initiated by the user while the V2 is turned off but still connected to power. We do recommend that the V2 be powered but turned off when not in use.

* AutoCal is started by pressing the Enter/Center button on the remote which disconnects the V2 from the audio input and output.

* Once AutoCal is initiated, it runs through one full cycle of LDR calibration in the following LDR sequence: right-series, right-shunt, left-series, left-shunt.

* Upon completing a full cycle, AutoCal shuts off and the V2 is reconnected to the audio input and output.

* While AutoCal is running it can be shut off prior to completing a full calibration cycle by pressing the Enter/Center button again on the remote. The V2 may not react immediately to this AutoCal shut down command and it may have to be repeated. We recommend you not interrupt the V2 during a calibration cycle once initiated. A full calibration cycle typically takes around 10 minutes.

* While AutoCal is running, you can cause AutoCal to interrupt calibration on the current LDR and switch to the next LDR in the cycle by pressing the Right button on the remote. If you switch through all 4 LDRs then AutoCal will shut down thinking its completed a full calibration cycle. This feature is provided as a diagnostic tool only. We highly recommend that you not interrupt AutoCal while its running.

* While AutoCal is running, the V2 will display each volume step (1-70)  in the process for each LDR. Thus it will go through 70 calibration steps four times in a row over the course of a full calibration cycle. When AutoCal is complete or shut down deliberately, the display will also shut off.

* We recommend you turn your amp off before initiating an AutoCal cycle. Physically disconnecting your cables from the V2 isn't necessary.

* We recommend you run AutoCal monthly but this is simply a recommendation and not a requirement.

J Payton

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Re: V2 Auto Calibration
« Reply #16 on: 6 Jul 2014, 12:22 pm »
I just purchased a balanced version of V2 but did not buy the display unit. Is there a way to notify those of us without a display when auto calibration is complete? Maybe some signal through the LED? By the way the unit sounds great I've been very impressed so far.

JP

tortugaranger

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Re: V2 Auto Calibration
« Reply #17 on: 6 Jul 2014, 12:40 pm »
I just purchased a balanced version of V2 but did not buy the display unit. Is there a way to notify those of us without a display when auto calibration is complete? Maybe some signal through the LED? By the way the unit sounds great I've been very impressed so far.

JP

Good idea JP. Perhaps a repeating blink followed by a brief pause to distinguish this type Status LED info from when unit is on and operating normally. 1 blink & pause indicating its on LDR #1,  2 blinks & pause for LDR # 2 etc. When cycle completes the Status LED would simply go off. I will put this into the queue for next software upgrade.

And glad you're enjoying your balanced V2!  :thumb:

Cheers,
Morten

J Payton

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Re: V2 Auto Calibration
« Reply #18 on: 7 Jul 2014, 06:40 pm »
When will you be putting the software upgrades in the download area of support on the Tortuga site?

I'm at 1.07 and want to update soon.

I know you have been updating software frequently as issue arise.

Joel


tortugaranger

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Re: V2 Auto Calibration
« Reply #19 on: 7 Jul 2014, 09:52 pm »
When will you be putting the software upgrades in the download area of support on the Tortuga site?

Latest 1.1.1 build is now available:   http://www.tortugaaudio.com/downloads/

It includes everything outlined in post #16 below related to auto-calibration but does not yet incorporate the changes mentioned in post #18.