Pickering XLZ-7500-S mk. II cartridge

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #20 on:** 25 Jun 2007, 01:17 am »

Oh, gawd no Toka - not the never-ending spreadsheet

(ha)

Pickering UK recommends 50-250ohms (odd as a quick calculation yields something more like 1000-2000ohms with 1mh inductance and 200pf capacitance). Pickering's instruction manual says 100 ohm.

My Mitsubishi preamp (very quiet MC stage) has only one resistive setting - 10ohm. Treble could be a bit recessed due to that low setting.

I don't like adding adding resistance via rca plug-ins as less rca connections are definitely better - especially with miniscule 0.35mv output. It's quite a tight fit inside the Mitsui to change it out...as it's a Tuner/Preamp and Dual Mono everything except AC cord.

Toka · « **Reply #21 on:** 25 Jun 2007, 02:21 pm »

Hmmm, weird...I came up with around 2000 ohms as optimal myself. Maybe they made those suggestions based on the typically available settings? I mean, Grado's are way more optimal into something like 13K ohms, but they all say 47k because that is what is available. This Pickering has me curious, thats for sure...I wonder how that step-up trans they sell works out? Me thinks an annoying e-mail is in order.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #22 on:** 25 Jun 2007, 02:29 pm »

Two audio buddles have bought the Pickering (battery power) step up and both find it works fine indeed. One uses it for the Pickering XLZ7500s...the other for any of the low output cartridges he has about. He hears no difference between it and a (passive) transformer he has now or used

I think Pickering resistively loads the step-up at 100 ohms.

It's seems quite good. I just like the practice of less rca connections with eeny-weeny voltages....keeping it all very simple with the integrated MC phono stage in the Mitsubishi. But, if that's not available to you for various reasons, the $100 Pickering is a super choice, it seems.

I think the two guys I've emailed there are David and Ian.....but I could be wrong (been traveling a lot and have had a lot of problems remembering even my rental car and where I parked it most recently

)

John

Toka · « **Reply #23 on:** 25 Jun 2007, 04:00 pm »

I'm a goof.

1000 ohms would be optimal, I think. Change ALL the settings, dummy!

I'm really interested in this...if this outfit can change the load resistance of that SUT I might have to jump on it just to try it. I asked Kevin at KAB about it and apparently its old stock from the late '80's that this UK company bought up...no affiliation with the US parent. I wonder how many they have? Don't like the idea of getting hooked on something and then have it all dry up.

Also don't like adding anything extra to the chain (one reason I tend to avoid MC carts), but this one really looks like what I would want...hmm...

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #24 on:** 25 Jun 2007, 04:30 pm »

There is no way of knowing whether new or NOS...and they only say they are 'new' in their ads (which means a lot of things, of course).

I have been looking at their various ebay ads for at least a year, maybe closer to two, so they must have bought a mountain of them if NOS from Pickering/Stanton.

They sound quite lovely - very full, and not tipped up in treble ranges. Even at 1mh they are 5-20x higher in inductance than high or low output MC's...so they don't have quite the crystalline nature of high frequency 'air' (often described as transparency) that nearly all MC's have.

But, at only 3 ohms DC resistance, the music comes flowing thru in lovely gobs...it's lower than about any known MC cartridge on the planet. Most MC's seem to be 10ohms and upwards to 40 or 100 (higher output ones, at least). 0 / zero resistance of course being the goal....no resistance, more signal passing, at all. The Stereohedron is a nice benefit in exceptional tracking and detail retrieval over the similarly specced Grado Woodie stuff.

For $250.00, it's an attractive value...even at $350.00 with Pickering step-up, there's little like it at that price.

Toka · « **Reply #25 on:** 25 Jun 2007, 05:00 pm »

I heard back quickly from Pickering UK...the SUT is 100 ohms input only (no adjustments available), which they feel is the best load...the chart doesn't agree but they seemed pretty sure, so who the heck knows. I just might try it. I'm actually glad they don't have the 'air' (rhymes with 'glare'), as most MC's lure me in with the soundstage then push me away with ear fatigue. I had an Audio-Technica AT150MLX on my radar, would love to try both but thats mucho $$$ to 'play'.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #26 on:** 25 Jun 2007, 05:08 pm »

Quote from: toka

I'm actually glad they don't have the 'air' (rhymes with 'glare'), as most MC's lure me in with the soundstage then push me away with ear fatigue

Precisely where I stand on MC's. I haven't, as yet, heard one that sounds natural enough to suit me, too. It could be that until you reach some megabuck $1000+ range, where every parameter of MC cartridge performance is pain-stakingly mechanically damped and tweeked to near perfection by some sonically obsessed craftman, getting an MC without glare and naturalness is near impossible.

I'm not likely to spend that much to find out. The Pickering is a dang good proxy for really good performance for a lot less

Toka · « **Reply #27 on:** 25 Jun 2007, 05:52 pm »

Glad I'm not the only one!

I'm firmly on the fence with this one. I'm somewhat leery about the extra complication/connections with the SUT, plus the input resistance just doesn't jive with me...but on the other hand, I like the 'idea' of this setup more than the AT...much better in theory. Can't really afford either right now so I don't know why I fret so much.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #28 on:** 25 Jun 2007, 06:31 pm »

Stop fretting. Save up and relax. Gear is near infinite in its availability.....but life is finite.

Enjoy IT while you got it.

John

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #29 on:** 27 Jun 2007, 05:20 pm »

Piano and violin/viola. Those two instruments drive me bonkers

trying to get them right. The Brandenburg Concertos and works by Vladimir Horowitz and Keith Jarret are nightmares for me - until recently.

CD is out...can't reproduce the delicate higher frequencies without raggedness inherent in the recording technology. It's not the recording; it's the medium.

Thus far, on Vinyl, it's sounded much better, more accurate, more, well, real. But, not quite perfect.

I heard on piano an added 'overhang' or congestion on busy passages...and a type of 'congestion' and steeliness on busy violin passages. Further, the violins sounded thin/without body...not like it is live.

The congestion issue improved with use of high or low output moving coils - not perfected, but bettered. Still, the rise in high frequency response of those I own or have to use made it only a trade-off, for me.

The Pickering XLZ-7500s gets it right

Not spot-on, that probably can't exist at home (or, at least at my home, in my less-than-optimized room, with my less-then-optimal everything...including and not limited to, my hearing

), but many times improved. My hunch: high impedance/resistance cartridge designs don't let enough signal pass to allow those instruments to sound real - all other things equal.

All moving coils have commendably low impedance.....the Pickering has an impedance level so low that I think only one brand of ($5K) moving coil in the universe matches it. A few (low output) MC designs come close at 4-12 ohms. The Grado Woodies match it and I would think are endowed with the same ability to capture piano and violin's right.

Getting piano and violin/viola finally about right are reasons enough to switch to (high or low) moving coils or the low Z Grado, Stanton or Pickering models. Low Z also generally tags along with low inductance...making real treble frequency extension improved, too. If you're frustrated by these sounds like I have been...go get a low Z cartridge and improve the performance markedly

(Of course, if you don't listen to much violin or (solo) piano...you may not care as much)

For the $250.00 that this Pickering now sells at, I don't know any more cost effective means to achieve it today.

Toka · « **Reply #30 on:** 27 Jun 2007, 05:56 pm »

How do you find the bass with the Pickering compared to other (mostly high-output) models? I've been told by reliable folks that the fewer coil turns eliminate a cause of lower-frequency smearing.

Man, the only thing stopping me from ordering one today (well, two things, the biggest being I don't have my records/TT with me at the moment, but thats besides the point) is that the SUT they sell is only set at 100ohms...I do trust their judgment, but man that spreadsheet has me concerned...I'm assuming I used it correctly and didn't make a silly mistake, which for me is a rather leaping assumption.

Oh yea, how are you liking the CS-100 compared to the Pickering?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #31 on:** 27 Jun 2007, 07:46 pm »

We all make assumptions - it happens as thinking beings.

Think of it this way. Your amp is positioned 100 feet from your speakers and you're using 18ga zip cord. It sounds okay.....you're losing a LOT of signal along the way due to impedance/resistance issues. That's just reality.

The cure(s) are:

1. Move the amp closer to the speakers, or vice-versa
or
2. Use larger gauge wire so your losses along the way are minimized
or
3. All of the above

A typical high-output MM/MI will have (typically) 500 to 2500ohms of resistance and 100' of coiled wire within it's delicate little shell. A high output moving coil may have 60-100ohms. A low output moving coil typically range from 5-40 ohms. Ideal (which never can be reached) is 0 (that is, no resistance at all).

The low output Pickering, Stanton and the Grado's, have 3 ohms...class-leading figures.

They achieve this by shortening the coiled wires to something closer to 6'...AND use larger gauge wires, as well. However, when this is done, the cartridge output decreases..necessitating the need for 20db or so additional gain over a typical moving magnet stages 40db. You need a moving coil stage...or a step up device like Pickering's own.

Low frequency 'smearing' is an audio-phool term often bandied about without acknowledgment as to why. Bass 'smears' because of signal losses along the 100-odd feet. It's not so much smearing as it is 'incomplete' bass.

The Pickering offers up chest-thumping bass.....not far off CD-levels. It's a real pleasant surprise for me as I had alway assumed weak/smeared bass was just a part of the vinyl experience. 'Tain't so: the combination of ultra-low impedance/resistance, low moving mass and careful attention to tip geometry and stylus materials make for tight, loud, and stellar bass

Black Uhuru's 'Anthem' has never sounded as wonderful as it does with the Pickering.

The CS-100 has a familiar sound to the XLZ7500...but doesn't have the electrical 'chops' (ie, low impedance and inductance) to carry it all off as well as the XLZ7500s does or can. It's not magic (too much cartridge lore is steeped in foo-foo crap) , it's just the electrical reality of these devices.

If Pickering's pickup is loaded at 100ohms, and Pickering recommends it for use with their cartridge...why be so reticent about it? I know of few manufacturers that would knowingly recommend a device that might make their product sound less attractive

Toka · « **Reply #32 on:** 27 Jun 2007, 07:58 pm »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 27 Jun 2007, 07:46 pm

If Pickering's pickup is loaded at 100ohms, and Pickering recommends it for use with their cartridge...why be so reticent about it? I know of few manufacturers that would knowingly recommend a device that might make their product sound less attractive

Well, part of it is that not all recommended values usually add up (Stanton recommended 275pF or so capacitance for the CS-100, which would be way too high...and other recommended loadings gave a fairly substantial resonant peak above 20kHz...might balance well with the equipment of the day, but hardly something to shoot for I would think). The second part, well, its not 'really' Pickering's step-up, it was made by the British distributor. Thats all well and good, except I have a vague tickling feeling they made it based off the recommended load, which may have been made based on convenience/availability, rather than an electrically optimal standpoint. Much like Grado, which would be FAR better into a 13k load, which isn't something one can get in 99.9% of setups. But, if I were using a Grado, it would be something I would get, by any means necessary (for peace of mind if nothing else...which is why we discuss such things, to some degree

).

The way I see it, based on results and personal philosophy, the ideal carts for me are:

1. Audio-Technica AT150MLX
2. Stanton CS100
3. Pickering XLZ-7500-S mk. II

Odd that I typed them that way, as the 'best of both worlds' result is in the middle...hmm...anyone looking to unload one?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #33 on:** 27 Jun 2007, 08:24 pm »

#2 is long disco'ed (1998 I think)...#1 and #2 cost about the same today.

Seriously, I have the Pickering loaded at 10 ohms now...and still like it a LOT. 100 ohms would only be that much closer to 'ideal'. Sometimes you can titter around with personal philosophies so much that you forget the purpose...to better your sonic experience. I've been there many, many times myself

Loading would seem to be a tertiary (or less important even) concern...cost and overall sound quality are 1 and 2. A good preamp shoudl come before the tweeky stuff like loading, methinks

btw, the step-up design offered is over 30 years old...I think a company company called UAD first offered it. I don't have firsthand info on it...but an audio buddy has told me he hears no difference between the Pickering step-up and a couple nice transformers he also owns. It works, it's quiet, it's cheap. It gets 95% right - done deal if I needed one.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #34 on:** 30 Jun 2007, 03:55 pm »

I think the Pickering has really spoiled me.

I ran thru my collection of cartridges yesterday and was very surprised. Even those I had liked previously portrayed instruments and vocalists as small-ish...something I had not noticed previously at all. They all differed in tone, in even or rising frequency response, in dynamics, or soundstaging / imaging, etc. There were still preferences among them - that didn't change. I hadThe Denon DL-160vdH was still the most exciting of the bunch...but fatiguing after 2 albums sides....ditto for the AT440ML/OCC.

The Denon was closest to making instruments bigger and bolder...but it just sounded all a bit fake to my ears. The Denon has an internal impedance/resistance of 160 ohms. The others ranged from 500 to 2500 ohms.

The Pickering has only 3 ohms. Less resistance translates to more signal....more signal fleshes out instruments more life-like. More, frankly, like they are portrayed on CD....but with treble extension and nuance lacking on CD.

However you achieve it - either thru use of a High/Medium or Low output Moving Coil (their design is inherently low impedance)...or a Low Output Moving Iron or Magnet design from Grado or Pickering/Stanton.....migrating to a low impedance cartridge gains you a lot more listening pleasure. If I had to quantify matters...instruments seem about 10% larger and more fully fleshed than using most moving irons and magnets - a wonderful betterment in enjoying music more fully, all other things equal

All you need is another 20db of quiet gain.....not really difficult to find for only $100.00 and up today. It's an investment that has proved quite worthwhile for me - and I hope for a few of you, too. I don't think I can go back to a high resistance cartridge....it leaves too much of the music smaller than it ought to be.

Russtafarian · « **Reply #35 on:** 10 Jul 2007, 05:51 pm »

I may just have to try one of these. Where can I get one for $260?

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #36 on:** 10 Jul 2007, 05:58 pm »

Right here, Russ: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Pickering-XLZ7500-S-Mk2-Hybrid-Hi-Fi-cartridge_W0QQitemZ270143786786QQihZ017QQcategoryZ48648QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It's a good cartridge...not quite as transparent or detailed as any moving coils, but more signal passing thru than any (more signal = greater presence) and gobs more natural sounding than any I've heard (by no means have I heard all of them to be sure). It's not tipped-up in the treble a la moving coils...which may or may not be to one's liking.

It's a winner at that price so long as you have 60db gain available to you and 100 ohm or so loading, to be sure

Russtafarian · « **Reply #37 on:** 10 Jul 2007, 08:48 pm »

Thanks.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #38 on:** 17 Jul 2007, 03:06 pm »

Russ, or anyone else having picked up or looking to pick up the Pickering XLZ7500s low impedance cartridge.

In the 1982 Audio Equipment Directory (yup, apparently the technology to produce a low Z moving magnet existed over 25 years ago

)
lists proper loading as 100 ohms resistance......but 1000 pf of capacitance. I've never seen recommended loading for any cartridge higher than maybe 400 pf before

So, if you're not getting the right sounds out of it - fiddle around with it's resistive and capacitive loading. Apparently, this cartridge was designed with the highest capacitive loading recommendation ever devised.

Nothing like this was mentioned by Pickering UK, and in the manual it states range of capacitive loading is up to 1000 pf.

Me, I have it totally wrong at 10 ohms and maybe 100 pf capacitance right now (and I like it quite a bit)...but, I'm working on rectifying that to see how much performance I can coax out of it by loading it more properly in the coming days.

Russtafarian · « **Reply #39 on:** 17 Jul 2007, 04:07 pm »

Its strange how circumstances effect equipment choices. I went to the Pickering site with every intention of buying the cart. Turns out they only take payment through Paypal which I don't have so I couldn't buy it.

I ended up getting a Denon DL103 rebuilt with a ruby cantilever and line stylus from Soundsmith for $425.

Russ