What does "all-out assault" mean?

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dayneger

What does "all-out assault" mean?
« on: 12 Jan 2003, 09:32 pm »
I've read the discussions about the AlphaLS and the Criterion with some interest.  They both seem to be wonderful speakers, but with quite different design motivations and philosophies.

I'm curious--what are the driving goals for these 2 speakers, what are the advantages and disadvantages in which contexts, how would you compare the listening experience of the 2 (say throwing in a decent sub for the Criterion).  What does all-out assault for the Criterion refer to, when the massive line-array AlphaLS seems to fit that bill better?  Etc.

By the way, I think it's very cool that one company is willing to explore the range this way!

Thanks, Dayne

audiojerry

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What does "all-out assault" mean?
« Reply #1 on: 13 Jan 2003, 01:36 am »
Danny would best be able to answer this question, but with CES taking place in Las Vegas, he may not be available for awhile.

Danny, if you are available, where are the Criterions right now, and what was the experience of the latest auditioner?

dayneger

What does "all-out assault" mean?
« Reply #2 on: 13 Jan 2003, 03:22 pm »
Ah yes, CES. . . forgot about that, thanks for the heads up.  Maybe I'm just jealous that I'm not able to go check it out myself :wink:

Danny Richie

Oh boy was the WCES lots of fun...
« Reply #3 on: 14 Jan 2003, 11:39 pm »
I just got back in late last night and still need time to recover.

In the mean time I spent all day packing orders that came in last week and answering LOTS of e-mails. I still have many to go...

Yes the two speakers are very different with different objectives in mind.

The Criterion can be considered an all out effort into a small package. No expense was spared to quality in any way from top to bottom. It uses the best of everything.

With good power on it will play at good to moderate levels in a small to medium sized rooms and do so as well as any speaker at any price. Some are close and some even preferred by some people,  but I really don't see it possible for any other speaker this small to perform this big right now.

And there are a lot of applications for this speaker. There are a lot or rooms that just can't handle a speaker like the Alpha LS and a lot of wives that can't handle them either.

But, for some people life is good.

The Alpha LS is a completely different speaker and is on a performance level still way beyond and well above the Criterion, or just about any speaker for that manor.

A buddy of mine described them as the most goose bumping speakers he has ever heard. They simply sound as close to real as real gets.

Comparing those two speakers is like reading about having sex in a romance novel verses really having sex.

The Alpha LS has the ability to make you think Alison Kruass is singing right in front of you and the ability to put you in the front row of an AC/DC concert and reproduce it with realistic levels without even being pushed hard.

The Alpha LS will reach out and grab you by the balls and make you listen. It is attention holding and it is a lot of fun to listen to.

How is that?

dayneger

What does "all-out assault" mean?
« Reply #4 on: 15 Jan 2003, 10:06 pm »
Pretty interesting analogies you've got going there, Danny!  Maybe I should reconsider my bedroom system, or get a bigger sofa. 8)

So the Criterion is an all-out assault on a package that's extremely small, and the Alpha LS is an all-out assault period. . .

What compromises did you have to make because of the size?  What would the same approach yield with a fairly slender floor-stander?  Would still need a sub, but might close the performance gab some.

In terms of WAF (or in my case GAF) and room size the Alpha's wouldn't fly, but I could get away with something a little bigger than the Criterions.  I'm not especially fond of the look and cost of stands, although shipping heavy cabinets isn't always that cool either.

Dayne

Danny Richie

speaker comparo
« Reply #5 on: 15 Jan 2003, 10:51 pm »
I think it is the Alpha LS's ability to effortlessly move lots of air that make them so realistic. Even subtle things like female vocals have a grab you factor from being able to really get a feel for the music.

I guess the fact that the Alpha LS woofers collectively have more surface area than a 15" woofer, and are way faster, makes a big impact.

I guess you just have to hear it.

Dayne,

I do have an MTM design following up the Criterion that I will be working on this month.

It uses the same ribbon and a pair of the Eton 5" woofers.

It will move twice as much air as the Criterion and have higher sensitivity.

A pair of them and a sub should go a long way.

audiojerry

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What does "all-out assault" mean?
« Reply #6 on: 18 Jan 2003, 01:43 am »
Danny, would the MTM Criterion need to be a 4 ohm nominal, or is there a way to make it 8?

Danny Richie

impedance
« Reply #7 on: 18 Jan 2003, 05:00 pm »
I had a meeting on Sunday with the managing director of Eton on Sunday while I was at the WCES.

A 16 ohm version of the Eton woofer they just made for us can be provided upon request to allow me to offer a 8 ohm MTM.

I don't see it happening real soon though. Late spring at best.

Their minimum quantities are not small and these are by no means cheap drivers, so it is a considerable commitment.

OBF

What does "all-out assault" mean?
« Reply #8 on: 18 Jan 2003, 07:36 pm »
Danny,

Is it correct to assume the MTM Criterion you are working on will be a floorstander and not a larger standmount?  If so, then it would be a better performing alternate to the A/V3 and older P3 for your product line?  Sounds interesting...... would there be any compromises vs a P3 or should the MTM do everything better, including extension and dynamics?

Thanks,
OBF

Danny Richie

MTM
« Reply #9 on: 18 Jan 2003, 10:06 pm »
The MTM version will be a slightly larger stand mounted speaker.

At only .5 cubic feet of air space it would be hard to stretch it out to a floor standing speaker.

It will be -3db down at about 58Hz just like the Criterion.

So it will not have the low end extension of a Paradox-3, but in every other way it really is a superior speaker.

dayneger

What does "all-out assault" mean?
« Reply #10 on: 21 Jan 2003, 12:01 pm »
OBF,

You could certainly make the cabinet extend to the floor and just seal off the upper part to the correct dimensions of the stand-mounted MTM design.

Danny, I'm not very familiar with all of the design parameters for speakers.  What limits the low-end extension here?  With the Criterion design goal being serious sound in as compact a package as possible it makes sense, but if you had the option of floor-stander internal volume, what are the trade-offs between F3 and sound quality?

I imagine it'd be hard to make an active subwoofer in the lower chamber of the speaker as I mentioned above for OBF?

Very foggy in Zurich today.  Again.

audiojerry

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What does "all-out assault" mean?
« Reply #11 on: 22 Jan 2003, 10:05 pm »
Quote
With the Criterion design goal being serious sound in as compact a package as possible it makes sense, but if you had the option of floor-stander internal volume, what are the trade-offs between F3 and sound quality?


I'm hoping Danny will respond, but I believe he doesn't want to allow the 5.25" Etons to try to produce frequencies any lower because he's concerned it would muck up their transparency and quickness.  

But, believe me, the Criterion's bass is superior in quality, and my 40hz test tone was played back surprsingly strongly.

Danny Richie

Low bass response
« Reply #12 on: 22 Jan 2003, 11:35 pm »
Quote
What limits the low-end extension here?


The low end extension is limited to just how low the 5" Eton can physically play.

Quote
but if you had the option of floor-stander internal volume, what are the trade-offs between F3 and sound quality?


There is a transition area between sub-woofer and main speakers that is often just not hit very well.

If the sub-woofer is asked to play to high it get directional and really a pair of subs are needed, and they must be placed near the main speakers to make a smooth blend of this transition. I feel like this is a concern anytime a sub is asked to play above 70Hz.

Now if you force a small driver to play to low then two things are a concern.

First if it is asked it to play to low it compromises its effectiveness to cover higher frequencies and distortion levels rise.

Secondly, lower frequencies need to be covered by a driver capable of moving more air than a 5" woofer is capable of. Anything below 50Hz is really pushing it.

Quote
I imagine it'd be hard to make an active sub-woofer in the lower chamber of the speaker as I mentioned above for OBF?


With a low crossover point of around 50 to 55Hz it is not hard to make the two blend nicely, but the best place in the room for your sub-woofer may not be where you place your main speakers.

Quote
But, believe me, the Criterion's bass is superior in quality, and my 40hz test tone was played back surprisingly strongly.


The Criterion was tuned to 57Hz. An impedance check confirmed this.

In the pair I sent around I had laid in a piece of Blackhole 5 on the top of the box that should slow down the air flow around the port and minimize port noise. After installing the Blackhole 5 the impedance check showed a tuning frequency close to 60Hz.

http://www.gr-research.com/lucidity/imp.htm

This should cause the -3db down point to hit 55Hz.

They are -6db down at 48.9Hz and -12db down at 40Hz.

audiojerry

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What does "all-out assault" mean?
« Reply #13 on: 23 Jan 2003, 08:12 pm »
ok Fine, I don't want to argue with Danny's measurements. All I know is I heard what I heard, and I heard decent bass at 40hz using a test cd  that plays a steady 40hz tone for 30 seconds. I've had full range floor standers rated at 35hz that did worse with this test tone. The speakers were 4' away from the wall behind them and 3'+ away from the side walls, so there was no augmentation from there.

BTW: where are the demo's now?
And why aren't we seeing any more reviews?
Danny, are you admonishing everyone who is getting a free demo to submit their feedback?

Brian Bunge

What does "all-out assault" mean?
« Reply #14 on: 23 Jan 2003, 08:23 pm »
Jerry,

Did you take any SPL readings with the test disc?  Just because the Criterions are 12dB down at 40Hz doesn't mean you still won't get plenty of output there.  It'll just be at a lower level than say an 80Hz tone.  But I'm sure you already know this, right? :)

dayneger

What does "all-out assault" mean?
« Reply #15 on: 26 Jan 2003, 10:40 am »
Hi Danny,

your wrote:

>There is a transition area between sub-woofer and main speakers that is often just not hit very well.

If you could have perfect control over the frequency roll-off and slope rate of both the main speakers and the subwoofer(s), how would you design this transition area in an ideal system?