[jacobacci]

@zootallures:
The conversion from DSD (on the SACD) to LPCM is done differently by different players, as they use different chipsets. I use the Oppo 83 and the Sony S770 in my setup. Deembedding is done with a Gefen box (a few posts up).
The Oppo converts DSD to 88.2khz/24bit. The Sony converts to 176.4khz. There is an open debate, whether the Sony outputs 16 or 24bit. My Berkeley Alpha DAC shows 24bit, others have determined it is 16bit (maybe padded with 0s to 24bit?).
Some people are of the view that the conversion quality of the Oppo is substantially better than that of the Sony (even though it is only 88.2khz). I am fairly new at actually using this, and I haven't been able to really compare the quality.

@moderator: With all the user experience that has been acquired with different setups, would it be good to pull together a table of what works and how and make that a sticky? Also a poll on the quality differences would be great.

Thanks
Rudi

[Phil A]

All SACD's are output as 24/88k by the Oppo BDP93 so you are good to go there.
I also had similar issues with the Cambridge 840C DAC inputs that will not lock on the output of the Monoprice box when fed 192khz sampling rates.
Just like you I tried inputing the Oppo coax output into the Cambridge and it will lock/play 24/192k content (all I tried were DVD-A discs).

Since that time I aquired a Bryston BDA-1 DAC that has no problem with the 24/192k output from the Monoprice de-embedder but for most content use the coax out from the Oppo. The Oppo coax limits to 48khz when playing Blu Ray audio content but the de-embedder works fine for that also...

P.S. I never had any issue with the Oppo/Monoprice box connected without a handshake from TV (Oppo outout on HDMI 1 with Monoprice  HDMI output not connected). Must be a setup issue with the Oppo or could be when both HDMI outputs are used ??

Todd

Todd - would you mind sharing your settings (and connections) on the BDP-93 that enable it to work without a handshake.  I have not exhausted all combinations but have not gotten mine to work with no handshake (have not even tried it with a handshake).  I've had the BDP-83 for a bit and never had an issue.  When I try the BDP-93 in its place, it just has not worked so far.  Some have had the same issue with the BDP-95.  Thanks

[Phil A]

The Sony converts to 176.4khz. There is an open debate, whether the Sony outputs 16 or 24bit. My Berkeley Alpha DAC shows 24bit, others have determined it is 16bit (maybe padded with 0s to 24bit?).


Thanks
Rudi

Rudi - I looked at the page on the Berkeley Alpha DAC and did not see where bit depth is displayed (only sampling frequency).  John Gatski of everythingaudio.net has tested many of the players including the Sonys and they only output 16 bit.  He has an ATI ADAC2 which shows bit depth.  I've brought one of my players over his house (my Integra - which does 176.4 and sounds worlds better than the Sony I have which will only work with a handshake and the Integra only does 16 bit.)

[jacobacci]

Phil,
You are absolutely right. Sorry, I misread the 1.24 reading in the display as being filter 1 and 24bit, but reading the manual I see the 24 has nothing to do with bitdepth. Clear case of RTFM.
Have the tests by John Gatski confirmed the Oppo to be 24bit? Overall which player do you (and others of course) think to be the best sounding?

[Phil A]

Phil,
You are absolutely right. Sorry, I misread the 1.24 reading in the display as being filter 1 and 24bit, but reading the manual I see the 24 has nothing to do with bitdepth. Clear case of RTFM.
Have the tests by John Gatski confirmed the Oppo to be 24bit? Overall which player do you (and others of course) think to be the best sounding?

Yes - John has confirmed the 24 bit from the Oppo players.  When I was over his house (probably around the end of last summer) to test my Integra DPS6.9 (which sounded really good to me - had heard it at the Capital Audiofest last July and the Integra room was next to the EverythingAudio.net room and I figured I could also use it somewhere so I grabbed one on close-out - it is HDMI 1.2 and the manual just says 176.kHz) he had an Oppo BDP80 set-up with the Atlona de-embedder on his kitchen table and I was able to see first hand.  He has tested many of the players and so far only the Oppo passes 24 bits. 

Unfortunately the ATI ADAC2 (http://www.atiaudio.com//product.aspx?id=96) costs around $1.5k (kind if expensive for a hobbyist and John Gatski uses a Benchmark DAC and told me the ADAC2 is just OK for music playback - nothing special) and I've done extensive searches and the only other thing that apparently does something similar I could find (I'm sure there are mega buck things that can do it) was made by Drawmer and was around the same price point (each unit can do up to 192kHz).

He (John) probably has not tested things like the Arcam DV137 and DV139 (DVD universals like my Integra) but has tested most other things.  I almost considered grabbing one of the DV137s on close-out but it was around double what the Integra ran me ($300) and at the price point of the Integra it was a no brainer as I can find a use for it somewhere as I have a fair amount of SACDs and DVD-As. 

[Phil A]

Phil,
You are absolutely right. Sorry, I misread the 1.24 reading in the display as being filter 1 and 24bit, but reading the manual I see the 24 has nothing to do with bitdepth. Clear case of RTFM.
Have the tests by John Gatski confirmed the Oppo to be 24bit? Overall which player do you (and others of course) think to be the best sounding?

Rudi, I use a Bryston DAC in the main system and have an Emotiva in the secondary basement system.  I have a bunch of players capable of being used with the de-embedder including a Sony BDP-BX37 (same as the 370), Integra DPS6.9, Oppo DV980H, (modded - mainly for analog but it has a different clock than the stock) BDP83 and I have a BDP93 which I have not gotten to work yet.  I have not tried all combos in all systems.  For a bit, I had the 980H in the bedroom system without a de-embedder into a Marantz SR6003 where I tried passing both DSD and converting to PCM.  The Marrantz was good on both and from limited listening could not tell much of a difference at all.  Overall, I'd say that the BDP83 is a bit better transport than the DV980H and the Sony was probably at the bottom.  The Integra, even though it only does 16 bit (but 176.4kHz) is probably pretty close to the DV980H.  I'd like to get the BDP-93 working with the de-embedder.  I swap out HDMI cables when I want to use the BDP-83 for a movie and I have another cable sitting there than goes to the pre/pro.  The transport on the BDP93 seems a bit smoother than the BDP83.  At some point I'd like to have more things, including hi-rez, digitized (been looking for the right PS3 off and on to rip - see the thread about the PS3).  I was retired at one point for almost 6 years and hopefully in a bit over two, it will be for good.  It will allow me the time I need to consider a move and also do more with audio.  I always have a backlog of music to listen to (including SACDs - and have another one the way from CD Japan). 

[zootallures]

Phil—
Yes, I meant the Monoprice Product-ID 5557. Sorry for the confusion.

Todd—
Thanks for your input. I too believe that there's no need for a handshake with the Oppo BDP-93/Monoprice 5557/outboard DAC combo. After the removal of the HDMI-1 cabling from the Oppo to the HDTV and without any Monoprice 5557 HDMI-out cabling—plus a few shutdown/restarts in a variety of order—the setup just works with SACD, DVD-A, and USB HDD/flash drive files.

Also, IMO and with regards to my system, SACD's into the 840C at 24/88.2 sound great. Deep bass, slam, tightness, sparkle, air around the instruments, staging, and overall PRAT are all there. Of course the quality of the recordings will ultimately determine these things.

I also agree that using the Oppo's own coax-out whenever you can is a good move. I suspect that removing a cable and another box from the signal path—especially when they don't do anything—has got to benefit the ultimate outcome.

Rudi—
Thanks as well. What I find strange about the 16 vs 24 bit-depth issue in my setup is that standard CDs over the HDMI/Monoprice connection show up as 24/44.1 on the 840C. However, when going directly out of the Oppo's coax into the 840C, they signal reads 16/44.1. As a matter of fact, when I first turn everything on—and without any shiny disc in the Oppo or USB device connected—the 840C reads 24/44.1 from the Monoprice input. Do either of these units (Oppo or Monoprice) automatically resample any signal over HDMI to 24 bit or, perhaps, does this have to do with some sort of HDMI spec?

[Phil A]

Rudi—
Thanks as well. What I find strange about the 16 vs 24 bit-depth issue in my setup is that standard CDs over the HDMI/Monoprice connection show up as 24/44.1 on the 840C. However, when going directly out of the Oppo's coax into the 840C, they signal reads 16/44.1. As a matter of fact, when I first turn everything on—and without any shiny disc in the Oppo or USB device connected—the 840C reads 24/44.1 from the Monoprice input. Do either of these units (Oppo or Monoprice) automatically resample any signal over HDMI to 24 bit or, perhaps, does this have to do with some sort of HDMI spec?

I believe the upsampling is a function of going the digital input of the Cambridge unit.  It could be that the Oppo coax out it the limiting factor.

[todd95008]

Todd - would you mind sharing your settings (and connections) on the BDP-93 that enable it to work without a handshake.  I have not exhausted all combinations but have not gotten mine to work with no handshake (have not even tried it with a handshake).  I've had the BDP-83 for a bit and never had an issue.  When I try the BDP-93 in its place, it just has not worked so far.  Some have had the same issue with the BDP-95.  Thanks

I only have used HDMI #1 on the BDP-93 so start there.
If I have to use the TV for a setup/connection, the HDMI cable from TV is connected to the Monoprice box HDMI output (I have no issues with cable connected to TV or not).
The BDP-93 has everything set to stereo (I'm a 2 channel guy) and PCM output (HDMI #2 OFF).
 It is mandatory to have the SACD output set to PCM !!
Make sure the HDMI output setting have audio turned ON (I think it can be turned off in two places).

I can't think of any other audio settings.

Todd

[todd95008]

Todd—
Thanks for your input. I too believe that there's no need for a handshake with the Oppo BDP-93/Monoprice 5557/outboard DAC combo. I also agree that using the Oppo's own coax-out whenever you can is a good move. I suspect that removing a cable and another box from the signal path—especially when they don't do anything—has got to benefit the ultimate outcome.

 What I find strange about the 16 vs 24 bit-depth issue in my setup is that standard CDs over the HDMI/Monoprice connection show up as 24/44.1 on the 840C. However, when going directly out of the Oppo's coax into the 840C, they signal reads 16/44.1. As a matter of fact, when I first turn everything on—and without any shiny disc in the Oppo or USB device connected—the 840C reads 24/44.1 from the Monoprice input. Do either of these units (Oppo or Monoprice) automatically resample any signal over HDMI to 24 bit or, perhaps, does this have to do with some sort of HDMI spec?

Yes, no handshake needed with Monoprice box.

I have the same issue with bit depth on the cambridge 840C DAC inputs.
I believe this is the monoprice box just adding the extra (blank) bits but I'm not sure.
I tried this with a Sony BDP and it also reported 24 bit on everything (SACD's included) and it has been proven that those players (even better ones than I have) do not output 24 bit data.
Also I have been told (on this board) that the Cambridge player does not always read the correct bit depth.

If you use the Oppo/monprice for SACD and Blu ray audio, you can use the Oppo coax for everything else and you are all set....

Todd

[Phil A]

I only have used HDMI #1 on the BDP-93 so start there.
If I have to use the TV for a setup/connection, the HDMI cable from TV is connected to the Monoprice box HDMI output (I have no issues with cable connected to TV or not).
The BDP-93 has everything set to stereo (I'm a 2 channel guy) and PCM output (HDMI #2 OFF).
 It is mandatory to have the SACD output set to PCM !!
Make sure the HDMI output setting have audio turned ON (I think it can be turned off in two places).

I can't think of any other audio settings.

Todd

Todd - thanks.  It's been a while but I thought I did all that (and then some).  I'll give it another shot at some point.  In my main system, I had both the BDP-83 and BDP-93 connected at one point and went back and forth and the BDP-83 worked with no issues and no matter what I tried I could not get the BDP-93 to work.  I just had a funny thing where the BDP-83 did not worked and I swapped the Port-ta box in the main system to the Monoprice box (made by Port-ta) in the basement and it is working.  It happened once before and the last time I switched from input 2 to input 3 on the Port-ta box and it started working.  Stuff is strange.  The BDP-93 at the moment is in the basement system and I'll try different things there first.  I'd like to get it working (even if I have to change settings (e.g. turn on an HDMI output) to watch a movie.  At some point, I envision simplifying the system a bit and it would be nice to just leave everything connected, although it is not that big a deal to swap HDMI cables as I have one going to the pre/pro and one to the de-embedder.  I have mine set to stereo too.  I do have the secondary basement and bedroom systems.  I do listen sometimes in multi-channel but probably more than 90% it is in stereo.

[Claude]

What the setup can do:
• Output 24/88.2 from physical SACD disks via the 5557
• Output up to 24/96 from physical DVD-A disks via the 5557
• Output 24/88.2 and 24/96 FLAC files that reside on a USB flash drive via the 5557

What the setup can't do:
• Output 24/192 from physical DVD-A disks via the 5557
• Output 24/192 FLAC files that reside on a USB flash drive via the 5557

Thanks a lot for your report.

As you wrote, some of your tests are mainly interesting from a theoretical point of view, because apart from the first in your list (SACD), the Oppo can do the same directly with the S/PDIF output.

Unlike other DVD-A players, the Oppo does not restrict the resolution of the S/PDIF output when playing DVD-As (at least those discs I have tried). It works with 24/96 and 24/192.

Same with FLAC files, obviously.

Where the HDMI deembedder method is also interesting, is when playing Blu-ray discs. Through S/PDIF, the resolution is downsampled to 24/48 by the Oppo, while the full resolution of audio-only BDs (Naxos, 2L) can be output through HDMI, if the connected deembedder can cope with it.

[simon wagstaff]

Don't know if this is off-topic but I am going to start here. Does anybody have any experience yet or knowledge of the somewhat new NAD DD390? it supposedly can be had with an HDMI input which I assume does the same thing as the de-embedder?  I am very curious about this integrated amp/DAC.  it would certainly be swinging just about totally opposite from my AVA U70 tube amp.

[ted_b]

Thanks a lot for your report.

As you wrote, some of your tests are mainly interesting from a theoretical point of view, because apart from the first in your list (SACD), the Oppo can do the same directly with the S/PDIF output.

Unlike other DVD-A players, the Oppo does not restrict the resolution of the S/PDIF output when playing DVD-As (at least those discs I have tried). It works with 24/96 and 24/192.

Same with FLAC files, obviously.

Where the HDMI deembedder method is also interesting, is when playing Blu-ray discs. Through S/PDIF, the resolution is downsampled to 24/48 by the Oppo, while the full resolution of audio-only BDs (Naxos, 2L) can be output through HDMI, if the connected deembedder can cope with it.

Claude, yes, that (DVD-A and BluRay) is what I said in my initial post when I wrote the review.  We have gotten quite a ways away from that, but the original intent of the de-embedder was to bring good (albeit downsampled PCM) SACD sound to your DAC, as well as full rez 24/192 BluRay, which married with Oppo's nice "jailbroken" 24/192 capture of DVD-A makes for a nice inexpensive solution.

Simon, where did you read that the HDMi inputs on the NAD c390DD are for de-embedding SACD's?

[Phil A]

Don't know if this is off-topic but I am going to start here. Does anybody have any experience yet or knowledge of the somewhat new NAD DD390? it supposedly can be had with an HDMI input which I assume does the same thing as the de-embedder?  I am very curious about this integrated amp/DAC.  it would certainly be swinging just about totally opposite from my AVA U70 tube amp.

From looking at their website it does appear so - http://nadelectronics.com/products/hifi-amplifiers/C-390DD-Direct-Digital-Powered-DAC-Amplifier

[ted_b]

Yes, Phil and Simon, you are right.  Short of what I'm doing (rippping SACD's to native DSD and playing them back on a native DSD DAC) this approach of having simple 2 channel HDMI de-embedding part of the integrated amp, is a nice one (and an optional board for only those who need it).  Reduces addtl connections, etc.  Let's hope the HDMI video passthru is not needed to complete the handshake.

[simon wagstaff]

it's a pretty new unit and seems to be under the radar a bit. As I understand it functions as a DAC and digital amplifier like the M2 but with lower output, 150 watts. Everything stays in the digital domain until the  "output transistors". there is an optional HDMI board and also an analogue input board. I am mainly interesting in hi rex 2 channel, surround is fun, but only sometimes, to me. I would only be interested in upgrading my DAC if I could play SACD, DVD-A and blu ray through it. I guess to integrate it into my home theater I would need the HDMI board and the analogue input board. It looks very interesting but not much information out there. It is on the NAD website and here is an early review that I don't think says anything about the HDMI input board.

http://www.audiovideo2day.eu/en/article/9541/

[Phil A]

Interesting - still awaiting Ted's Mytech DAC review and also what the Levinson No.560 Digital Audio Processor (with DSD and HDMI) will be like.

[simon wagstaff]

Not to go too far afield but I just noticed on the NAD website that the M51 DAC/pre-amp also includes 2 hdmi inputs and one (pass through) output standard. I am guessing the pass through is required to get the handshake?

They do claim that they can get stereo sound from blu-ray.

[natf]

Ok, I just received the Monoprice and installed it with my Oppo BDP-83.

First strange thing: when i connected the HDMI cable (1.4a 28AWG) to the Oppo, without having connected it to the Monoprice, the coax digital output of the Oppo became mute and the mute led on DAC was on... is it normal?

By the way, I made the first attempt with coax cable directly from Oppo to DAC and toslink from Monoprice to DAC.
Everything was fine, the HDMI logo on front panel of OPPO was on and I listened to a SACD, a DVD-A and an audio CD but coax from OPPO to dac again in mute mode.
Next I decided to change connection, because I preferr coax into DAC but when I disconnected coax from OPPO and connected it to Monoprice I didn't listening anything from DAC; HDMI logo on front panel of OPPO became off and never turned on from then on. I also swapped Monoprice input port from 2 to 4 (in order to use only rear panel connections)

I tried to reset the OPPO to default values and reconfigure it, disconnect Monoprice from power, but nothing, I reverted to the first working configuration but it didn't work anymore; I also tried to swap hdmi cable ends but nothing.
Furthermore the OPPO had the coax output in mute even with the HDMI cable disconnected.

I know this is a disordered way to make tries but I had not so much time; now I can't know what to do and I'm not at home because of my work. I disconnected all from the power since yesterday evening, maybe this could be help? it seems that OPPO went crazy for something...

Can someone help me?

Thanks in advance