A few questions before I upgrade Power Conditioner

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 3376 times.

mcbuddah

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 43
A few questions before I upgrade Power Conditioner
« on: 20 Jun 2015, 05:34 pm »
 :scratch: I have recently made many major changes to my system and a lot of small ones too. New location on a great wall in a pretty good room, new Steve Blinn Super-Wide rack, upgraded speakers to Genesis 6.1, discovered tube rolling and NOS treasures for my phono stage, Herbie's fat decoupling titanium gliders under rack and outriggers on the speakers, Kaplan's newest speaker cables and interconnects, and more. The new location allows me to treat all my cables properly and to perform all kinds of cleaning and system maintenance tasks easily. The result is a system that is extremely transparent and revealing of all flaws, which I deal with according to the old wisdom that once you have solved your biggest problem, you have promoted number 2. The most recent promotions have now brought power conditioning to the top of my list.

I currently use a PS-Audio PPP for most of my components. Loads include a pair of D-Sonic 600w/channel @8 ohms, a VPI SDS, W4S STP preamp, and a Thor tubed phono stage. I tried running the 500w/side Genesis woofer amps into it as well but the sound was garbage at even moderate listening levels, so they are now plugged directly into the walls. All duplex outlets are on the same circuit and are sourced from Cruze First Audio (Maestro?) and have the matching cover plates. Apparently, the PPP is overwhelmed.

I spent a lot of time on-line getting up to speed on the state of power management technology in the last 10 years and so naturally came upon a lot of excitement about the UberBuss, especially the recognition you and Triode Pete are getting at the shows. I read through a lot of info and am currently considering ordering a Custom Buss including 3 Cruze First outlets (4 if you can make one like that). I also am considering buying a used Audience AR12 or Synergistics SR 10SE, both of which are said to work well with power-hungry amps.  Also, I have just stumbled on a few threads of information that you are joining up with TWL to create an all-out assault on the current PLC market. That shakes things up quite a bit. I need more information to help make the best decision I can.

1.  What duplex receptacles were you using on your UberBuss when you and Pete were(are) winning all those Best Sound of Show awards? I am quite partial to the Maestros, but I don't have anything to compare with.  Do you try to match receptacles with certain types of load?

2. With my list of components - especially with four 500+ watt amps, what would be the best way for me to end up with eight outlets?

3.  Since this would be a custom order anyway, should I also incorporate upgraded outlet covers as well?

4.  Can the Buss be ordered with the same type of PowerCon connector that the Audience and Synergistics models have been using? If this is possible, I would need your help in coordinating a custom PC for it with your partner at TWL. 

5.  As near as I can tell, the custom Uber + a good PC like a 7+, even if a conventional C-19,  put the project above $2500, and that's all right, but will I soon regret not waiting until your new product comes to market? I would certainly not want to buy both products in less than a year, but the pain could be reduced enough to consider if your marketing plan includes trade-ups to existing customers.  Or, if the price of the new product is expected to be stratospheric and I will never be able to afford it, knowing that now wouldn't make me cry, but it would cause me to look at some seriously expensive receptacles to put in the custom Uber that I actually need right now.

Thanks in advance for any info you can give me to help decide what to do here. I don't want you guys to prematurely reveal any business plan secrets, but I could use a little more to go on.
djmcc

DaveBSC

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 110
Re: A few questions before I upgrade Power Conditioner
« Reply #1 on: 20 Jun 2015, 08:30 pm »
I had a PS Audio PPP in my system for awhile, and sold it after a few months. I wasn't overdrawing to a similar degree, I just didn't think it worked all that well. Prior to that I had a Richard Gray conditioner, and while those are pretty lousy, in some ways even the RGPC was better than the PS.

The PPP is effectively a digital amplifier that spits out a steady state, 60Hz AC tone. That's fine for low power components, but amplifiers really don't like that sort of power delivery in my experience. It's a very good voltage regulator, but when it comes to noise on the grid, and UHF interference, the PPP is mediocre at best. That, combined with its notorious poor reliability convinced me to sell it. Mine had the "click of death" and whatever the problem was, PS couldn't fix it and so they just sent me a completely new unit. I never even took the replacement out of the box, just put it straight on Audiogon. I wasn't going to wait around for the second one to self destruct because PS Audio doesn't have Bryston class warranties.

If you're looking to spend $2500-3000, I wouldn't recommended an Audience, at least not a new one. You can often find AR6-TS or TSS models on Audiogon for around $3000 or so, and you could just add additional outlets to it with a very HQ, unfiltered power strip. An AR12-TSS is $6K+ used, something like $12K new. The standard Audience Adept Response conditioners that use Auricaps instead of Aura-Teflon caps aren't that great, definitely not as good as the UberBuss.

I'm not a fan of the SR PowerCell because I prefer to not go down the SR rabbit hole. There are tweaks, and then there's just total nonsense.

dBe

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 2181
    • PI audio group, LLC
Re: A few questions before I upgrade Power Conditioner
« Reply #2 on: 20 Jun 2015, 09:52 pm »
:scratch: I have recently made many major changes to my system and a lot of small ones too. New location on a great wall in a pretty good room, new Steve Blinn Super-Wide rack, upgraded speakers to Genesis 6.1, discovered tube rolling and NOS treasures for my phono stage, Herbie's fat decoupling titanium gliders under rack and outriggers on the speakers, Kaplan's newest speaker cables and interconnects, and more. The new location allows me to treat all my cables properly and to perform all kinds of cleaning and system maintenance tasks easily. The result is a system that is extremely transparent and revealing of all flaws, which I deal with according to the old wisdom that once you have solved your biggest problem, you have promoted number 2. The most recent promotions have now brought power conditioning to the top of my list.

I currently use a PS-Audio PPP for most of my components. Loads include a pair of D-Sonic 600w/channel @8 ohms, a VPI SDS, W4S STP preamp, and a Thor tubed phono stage. I tried running the 500w/side Genesis woofer amps into it as well but the sound was garbage at even moderate listening levels, so they are now plugged directly into the walls. All duplex outlets are on the same circuit and are sourced from Cruze First Audio (Maestro?) and have the matching cover plates. Apparently, the PPP is overwhelmed.

I spent a lot of time on-line getting up to speed on the state of power management technology in the last 10 years and so naturally came upon a lot of excitement about the UberBuss, especially the recognition you and Triode Pete are getting at the shows. I read through a lot of info and am currently considering ordering a Custom Buss including 3 Cruze First outlets (4 if you can make one like that). I also am considering buying a used Audience AR12 or Synergistics SR 10SE, both of which are said to work well with power-hungry amps.  Also, I have just stumbled on a few threads of information that you are joining up with TWL to create an all-out assault on the current PLC market. That shakes things up quite a bit. I need more information to help make the best decision I can.

1.  What duplex receptacles were you using on your UberBuss when you and Pete were(are) winning all those Best Sound of Show awards? I am quite partial to the Maestros, but I don't have anything to compare with.  Do you try to match receptacles with certain types of load?

2. With my list of components - especially with four 500+ watt amps, what would be the best way for me to end up with eight outlets?

3.  Since this would be a custom order anyway, should I also incorporate upgraded outlet covers as well?

4.  Can the Buss be ordered with the same type of PowerCon connector that the Audience and Synergistics models have been using? If this is possible, I would need your help in coordinating a custom PC for it with your partner at TWL. 

5.  As near as I can tell, the custom Uber + a good PC like a 7+, even if a conventional C-19,  put the project above $2500, and that's all right, but will I soon regret not waiting until your new producmmt comes to market? I would certainly not want to buy both products in less than a year, but the pain could be reduced enough to consider if your marketing plan includes trade-ups to existing customers.  Or, if the price of the new product is expected to be stratospheric and I will never be able to afford it, knowing that now wouldn't make me cry, but it would cause me to look at some seriously expensive receptacles to put in the custom Uber that I actually need right now.

Thanks in advance for any info you can give me to help decide what to do here. I don't want you guys to prematurely reveal any business plan secrets, but I could use a little more to go on.
djmcc

Great post and questions.  First of all, welcome to the forum  :thumb:

Looks to me like you are on a mission.  Power filtration is a huge part of what makes for a tremendous system even knowing that systems are never really "done".  You have a great system brain, nerves and muscles.  What you need is a strong heart that pumps good clean power to all of those parts and pieces.

You think your system is transparent now, just wait  :D

PS Audio makes some great products, especially when used within reason.  That is just like every other power product.  I used a P300 in every one of its' updates for years.  The biggest problem is that most of their products are used well beyond their spec.  Quoting their ad: "The Premier will provide up to 1500 watts of pure, regulated AC power regardless of the condition of your home’s power."  That is great as long as you have a system whose dynamic range capabilities, sensitivity of the speakers, etc. all fall under the 'regulated' 1500W curve.  I wonder what the dynamic headroom is for the PPP?  I would say that your PPP was overloaded. 

That is sluggish old, noisy, sluggish wall current can shine.  Still the best source for dynamics.  We just have to clean it up making it plentiful with low impedance A/C.  There are a lot of companies that will say "high current design", but the question of relative to what always comes up.  I prefer to use the series resistance and inductance of a 48" long piece of 12a (full 12 ga, not the short size they sell in some places) as my reference.

Let's deal with the AUDIBLE DIFFERENCE first.  It will be a statement piece for both Pete and myself.  At this time a lot of details are up in the air and depending on final component choices price is probably north of $3500.00USD.  We will a very good trade in policy that is primarily based upon version and physical appearance.  Like anything else: take good care of it and you can get most of the $$$ back.  We will offer introductory pricing upon announcement.

Now on to the questions -

1.    Receptacles were always the Pass & Seymour 5362A cryoed units that come standard in the BUSSes. That receptacle won the sonics test among all of the others I tested (Cooper, Eagle, Hubble, Leviton, blah, blah, blah)  It is an extremely balanced sound with an extended, deep bass, tangible mids and very clear highs.  Always my goto over standard contractor grades.  Both Pete and I carry Furutech plugs and receptacles to help achieve final spectral balance of the system.al lot of systems that like gold plate will hate rhodium place and vice versa.  Maestros are a good receptacle, too.

2.    On an Über ($1095.00 - soon to increase I'm afraid) you pay $25.00 and you get a P&S5362A that has been immersion cryo treated and the Final Filter that goes with it in any color as long as it is black.

3.    I will install them if you provide other grands than Furutech.  I can source Furutech, but they do not make triples or quads.
       [I've tried some, made some and made some more.  Sent them to a few customers and we all said: "maybe..???????????.  I dunno.  I can absolutely say that the Furutech GTX-D receptacles make a big difference, but adding the plate?  I'm not sure.

4.    Standard inputs (no charge options) are:  Furutech C14 gold or rhodium 15A/125 IEC, Bulgin C20 20A/125VAC and the Neutrik powerCON NAC3MPA-1.  Optional is the Neutrik powerCON NAC3MP-HC 32A/250VAC for $25.00.  Fourth connectors of other types are available upon request.  Market price.

Pete makes cables with every connector and more than we have mentioned.  Ask him for pricing: www.triodewirelabs.com

5.    This one is tough to answer other than to say we will have a very generous Trade Up Plan.  I cold BS you with "you'll get everything that you spend in trade", but every trade is an individual.  Referencing what I said above, keep good care of it (it won't break) and you could very well get full purchase price for your investment.  With all of this in mind, why don't you let me build what you want, you can enjoy the fruit of my labor and we'll cross the "what do I do now?" thing IF we get there  :D

PM will be coming your way...
« Last Edit: 27 Jun 2015, 05:29 am by dBe »

jonbee

Re: A few questions before I upgrade Power Conditioner
« Reply #3 on: 20 Jun 2015, 10:25 pm »
I'd used my PPP for everything, including efficient class d amps for awhile, but it seemed to be running hotter than I liked, so I bought a Pi rev b for my amp and subs, using the ppp for sources only. Much better sounding and the PPP runs cool. I've been running it this way for a couple of years and am very pleased. I suspect many people simply ask too much of the PPPs and that leads to reliability issues.
I think PS Audio's wattage ratings are simply not realistic, prettied up for marketing reasons, which leads to trouble, but for low power components they are good, although expensive. Their protection circuits are very good, imo. The Pi devices work very well with high and low current components and are a bargain by comparison, but don't offer protection.