Do I Need a Rumble Filter, a New Cartridge, or...?

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woodsyi

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Re: Do I Need a Rumble Filter, a New Cartridge, or...?
« Reply #20 on: 25 Aug 2017, 05:24 pm »

I do have another question/issue that this forum might be able to help me understand. That is overhang. from what I understand, overhang is the position of the cartridge as it's mounted on the headshell. How far back or forward it sits in the headshell. How do I determine the best position? Trial and error? Or, is there a better way to choose a starting point?

You need a protractor.  https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge-alignment-protractors.shtml has all the freebies and the overhang shift calculator will tell you what happens when you go off. Then there is the on going debate as to which protractor, Baerwald, Loefgren or Stevenson, is better for which music.  Read all about it here. Fun stuff, isn't it? 

I use Feickert protractor which makes things very easy.  Not cheap but very worth it if you have multiple TTs and switch out carts frequently.  If you are in the area, you can borrow it.

dB Cooper

Re: Do I Need a Rumble Filter, a New Cartridge, or...?
« Reply #21 on: 25 Aug 2017, 08:27 pm »
BOYYYY, do I ever not miss trying to figure this stuff out...

Re the problem stated in the OP: I agree that there are two probable issues: Tonearm/cart incompatibility and speaker proximity.

To the OP: If it makes you feel any better, many 'experts' can't seem to get it right either. 2 or 3 years ago there was a room at Capital Audiofest in which the woofers in the well-regarded mini-monitors were flopping back and forth like a freshly boated fish (even though the record was not visibly warped. I inquired about this to the vendor, whose answer was, "Oh, these woofers can handle it." Sure, but what is going on in your electronics having to push that woofer around at 5-6 Hz? It can't be good for your SQ. I noticed that the tube preamp had a subsonic filter, but I didn't flip it on, figuring that if the vendor didn't care, why should I.

I saw much the same phenomenon with the giveaway system from last year, suggesting that the system was randomly assembled. Oh well, with a free system, you can afford to buy a more compatible cart. My point is that even 'experts' sometimes struggle, and a given cart/tonearm combo may perform great- or like a dog- for reasons of compatibility rather than quality (or price). You refer to your system as 'entry level', but I'd rather listen to a well-matched 'entry level' system than a not very compatible big-buck system. You hear the term 'synergy' a lot in audio; nowhere in audio does proper synergy (matching) have a bigger effect. Easiest thing to change in your vinyl setup is the cart. Get the right one and you're golden.

toddc2

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Re: Do I Need a Rumble Filter, a New Cartridge, or...?
« Reply #22 on: 2 Sep 2017, 12:16 pm »
I'm having the same problem. My buddy was over the other night and suggested I increase the tracking force. I added a gram and the woofer movement decreased substantially, but going from 2.0 grams to 3.0 grams doesn't sit well with me so I put the tracking force back to 2.0 (it's nominal setting).

I'll be following this thread with interest, thanks for posting.

Todd

Help! My woofer rumble is more or less contained to the outside 3/4" of the record which implies a setup problem to me. Even the lead in groove can cause massive woofer movement.

The turntable was setup by the dealer in my house. This particular dealer is locally known for his setup expertise. One thing he didn't do was add additional anti-skate (I.e. the anti-skate is not hooked up). I have heard VPI tables can sometimes get away without additional anti-skate due to the force of the twisted wires running from the arm to the base, so maybe that's not the problem.

Setup: VPI Classic 3 with a Sumiko Pearwood Celebration MKII sitting on a Quadraspire rack.

The center of the woofer is 34" from the corner of the table, which is pretty much as far away as I can put them in my small-ish 10'x14' listening room. The speakers are a sealed design.

The room is well treated with adsorption and corner bass traps. I did mount the bass traps halfway up the wall as shown in the photo.

Any help would be appreciated!

Todd






dB Cooper

Re: Do I Need a Rumble Filter, a New Cartridge, or...?
« Reply #23 on: 2 Sep 2017, 03:56 pm »
First place I'd look for help would be the damn dealer who set it up. A little googling indicates you spent in the vicinity of $10K on this setup. You shouldn't have this kind of problem for this kind of money. And 'proper setup' won't correct incompatibility if that's all or part of the problem. Ask them what the resonant frequency of the tonearm/cart combo is. If it's not optimal range, they should exchange for a more compatible cart. If they don't know, or can't find out quickly, they're not the experts they're cracked up to be, just experts at getting audiophiles to part with $10K. There are resources cited earlier in this thread that should help in confirming or ruling out this problem. It's not even that hard to determine the need (or not) for anti-skating help. I used to set mine to drift outwards very slowly on a blank disk (the groove modulations add skating force not present on a blank platter). It would be wierd for a skating error to dump huge subsonics into a system IMHO.

A tonearm/cart combo is like a marriage: they can both be 'good people' but just not compatible. I'm not saying that's what's happening here, but it certainly sounds like at least part of the OP's situation.


toddc2

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Re: Do I Need a Rumble Filter, a New Cartridge, or...?
« Reply #24 on: 3 Sep 2017, 12:28 pm »
First place I'd look for help would be the damn dealer who set it up. A little googling indicates you spent in the vicinity of $10K on this setup. You shouldn't have this kind of problem for this kind of money. And 'proper setup' won't correct incompatibility if that's all or part of the problem. Ask them what the resonant frequency of the tonearm/cart combo is. If it's not optimal range, they should exchange for a more compatible cart. If they don't know, or can't find out quickly, they're not the experts they're cracked up to be, just experts at getting audiophiles to part with $10K. There are resources cited earlier in this thread that should help in confirming or ruling out this problem. It's not even that hard to determine the need (or not) for anti-skating help. I used to set mine to drift outwards very slowly on a blank disk (the groove modulations add skating force not present on a blank platter). It would be wierd for a skating error to dump huge subsonics into a system IMHO.

A tonearm/cart combo is like a marriage: they can both be 'good people' but just not compatible. I'm not saying that's what's happening here, but it certainly sounds like at least part of the OP's situation.

Sorry, I should clarify my post:

1. I purchased this turntable and cartridge used from a third party. The dealer in question offers an in-home setup service so I paid him to come out and dial it in.

2. The symptoms didn't start until I replaced my KEF104/2's with the Magico S1's (which was after the dealer setup).

I know this dealer would gladly make the 90 minute drive out to help, but I would rather try to isolate and fix the problem myself before calling out the Calvary. I will check the compatibility as advised.

Todd

toddc2

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Re: Do I Need a Rumble Filter, a New Cartridge, or...?
« Reply #25 on: 4 Sep 2017, 08:09 pm »
I will check the compatibility as advised.

rf = 159 / sqrt ((eff. mass + cart weight + fastener weight) * (compliance))

JWM 10.5 effective mass 10.9g
cart weight 7.0g
fastener weight 1.5g (I have a 1 gram weight + screws)
compliance 12

rf = 10.42 which should be fine.

One additional observation is my tonearm is literally bouncing when the excessive woofer movement is happening. I tried a digital source and was able to get clean sound with no odd woofer movement at ridiculously high volume levels so the issue is definatley isolated to my analog chain.

bacobits1

Re: Do I Need a Rumble Filter, a New Cartridge, or...?
« Reply #26 on: 4 Sep 2017, 09:05 pm »
I had a problem 3 months ago on the first song of Brothers in Arms, Dire Straights, Across the River.
It is that area of the .50" in from the lead in groove.
When I had the volume too high on the (low Volume parts that go really low) on the Redgum 120 that has SLAM (265w/ch at 4ohms) and a high dampening factor of like 800 I got the jumping needle thing.
I was getting so much back draft from the rear ports on that front wall it was causing it to skip. At that time I didn't notice I did not have the Sub filter engaged.   Turning it on stopped it along with less volume as the song came up. I do not get that on my tube Cronus Mag II.

Can you try a different cartridge?
Never add more tracking weight unless it in the area of .10 or .20 never 1 gram.

I know non of this description helps but it says your not the only one and I made no changes except for the Amp.
Cart is AT33PTGII a hell of a tracker in my set up.


toddc2

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Re: Do I Need a Rumble Filter, a New Cartridge, or...?
« Reply #27 on: 8 Sep 2017, 01:16 pm »
One additional observation is my tonearm is literally bouncing when the excessive woofer movement is happening. I tried a digital source and was able to get clean sound with no odd woofer movement at ridiculously high volume levels so the issue is definatley isolated to my analog chain.

My woofer distortion issue turned out to be a setup issue. My nearest VPI dealer helped me diagnose the problem in his shop. Essentially the in-house setup I paid for was not good and he tweaked the setup significantly:

1. The VTA tower and lift were sitting way too low, that was raised about 1/2"
2. The azimuth setting based on using a Fozgometer was way off. Azimuth was adjusted back to square.
3. VTF was REDUCED to 1.8 grams

Problem solved. The dealer thought the Sumiko was still a little bouncy and probably not a great choice for a uni-pivot so I may end up getting a new cartridge. But for now it is sounding great and I'm leaving well enough alone...

Todd

toddc2

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Re: Do I Need a Rumble Filter, a New Cartridge, or...?
« Reply #28 on: 27 Oct 2017, 12:59 pm »
My woofer distortion issue turned out to be a setup issue. My nearest VPI dealer helped me diagnose the problem in his shop. Essentially the in-house setup I paid for was not good and he tweaked the setup significantly:

1. The VTA tower and lift were sitting way too low, that was raised about 1/2"
2. The azimuth setting based on using a Fozgometer was way off. Azimuth was adjusted back to square.
3. VTF was REDUCED to 1.8 grams

Problem solved. The dealer thought the Sumiko was still a little bouncy and probably not a great choice for a uni-pivot so I may end up getting a new cartridge. But for now it is sounding great and I'm leaving well enough alone...

Todd

Well, I spoke a little too soon! My woofer movement, while reduced, is still there. A new Lyra Delos reduced most (but not all) of what remained. The good news is that I'm not getting any audible distortion out of the woofers now. And the new cart sounds sweet!

The dealer that sold and installed the Lyra spent a few hours helping to diagnose the problem in my house. He thinks my Quadraspire EVO rack isn't up to the challenge of a 100 lb. monster turntable and suggested a lower profile sturdier rack. Or I could try damping my VPI arm (which I'm not keen on). I'm also going to try the Symposium VPI footer inserts before I try a new rack.

Todd

bacobits1

Re: Do I Need a Rumble Filter, a New Cartridge, or...?
« Reply #29 on: 27 Oct 2017, 01:18 pm »
100# table? The VPI isn't 100#??
I'm sure the dealer will sell you a new rack setup. Uhuh!
Get the rumble filter, KAB, you will never hear it.
I pretty sure you will always see some kind of movement on those woofers.

toddc2

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Re: Do I Need a Rumble Filter, a New Cartridge, or...?
« Reply #30 on: 27 Oct 2017, 02:09 pm »
100# table? The VPI isn't 100#??
I'm sure the dealer will sell you a new rack setup. Uhuh!
Get the rumble filter, KAB, you will never hear it.
I pretty sure you will always see some kind of movement on those woofers.

Correct, the actual weight of my Classic 3 with the ring and center weight is 81 pounds. I guess he could have been more over the top and called it a 1000 pound table!

Yes, I'm sure he wouldn't mind selling me a new rack. But I have to say he was genuinely trying to help out. I will try to get an in house demo to prove the rack solution before buying it. We did put the table on the floor and that seemed to eliminate the woofer movement so I think there's some truth in what he's saying.

I will keep trying to get this resolved and post results. In summary so far:

1. My Sumiko cartridge was setup incorrectly. Fixing that was a good first step.
2. I purchased a Symposium Seque ISO platform. That didn't help, but my table did sound better with it so it stayed.
3. I replaced the cartridge and that helped, but did not completely fix my issue.

Other things I will try:

1. Symposium VPI footer inserts
2. Rumble filter
3. New rack
4. If all else fails, the speaker grills are going on so I don't have to look at the woofers flapping...

Todd


bacobits1

Re: Do I Need a Rumble Filter, a New Cartridge, or...?
« Reply #31 on: 27 Oct 2017, 02:43 pm »
 "If all else fails, the speaker grills are going on so I don't have to look at the woofers flapping..."
 :lol: :lol:
I have mine on. :thumb:


toddc2

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Re: Do I Need a Rumble Filter, a New Cartridge, or...?
« Reply #32 on: 7 Dec 2017, 03:26 pm »

I will keep trying to get this resolved and post results. In summary so far:

1. My Sumiko cartridge was setup incorrectly. Fixing that was a good first step.
2. I purchased a Symposium Seque ISO platform. That didn't help, but my table did sound better with it so it stayed.
3. I replaced the cartridge and that helped, but did not completely fix my issue.


I tried a few more things as listed below. Wifey stopped by my listening room last night. She asked me why the woofers were dancing. Great...time to get the speaker grills out...

4. I purchased the Symposium VPI footers.
5. I installed a custom 2" walnut platform on Symposium RollerBlock Jr.'s
6. Installed a Whest phono stage (hey, why not?)

Although I failed to completely resolve my woofer flapping issue, I will say the system sounds great!



« Last Edit: 7 Dec 2017, 04:41 pm by toddc2 »