AudioCircle

Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Single Driver, Wide-Bandwidth Speakers => Topic started by: FredT300B on 30 Jun 2010, 10:58 pm

Title: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: FredT300B on 30 Jun 2010, 10:58 pm
I've just completed the best sounding single driver speakers I've ever built. Much better octave-to-octave tonality than the Fostex, Tang Band, and Audio Nirvana single driver speakers I've built in the past. The design is a few years old, by Jim Griffin, using CSS FR-125SR full range drivers, and I added a rear mounted HiVi RT1C-A Planar tweeter. The front and rear-mounted full range drivers are wired in parallel, with no compensation network, and the tweeter is wired to reinforce only the highest frequencies with a 1.0uF Audiocap Theta film capacitor in series.

I had built a pair without the supertweeter a few years ago, enjoyed them for a while, then sold them. Soon after I regretted selling them and finally built another pair late last year, but after listening to line arrays with Fountek ribbons and a 2.5-way using Scan Speak Revelator drivers I found something was missing. Adding a cheap Parts Express neo tweeter to the front panel regained some of the air that was missing, but a cheap front mounted tweeter doesn't mesh too well with a high quality full range driver like the CSS.

I recently read Danny Ritchie's advice about adding a supertweeter to a full range speaker (mount it on the back), and I took that advice. As usual, Danny knows what he's talking about. The tweeter adds that extra bit of "air" without standing out from the full range drivers. These little speakers sound fantastic, with absolutely none of the shout I'm accustomed to hearing with high sensitivity light-cone drivers like Fostex and Lowther. However, these are not high sensitivity speakers and they need the conrol of a medium power amplifer to manage the bass. I've found my Virtue One works fine, and a Krell integrated is even better. Haven't tried them with tubes but I anticipate any EL34 pp amp would be fine. Definitely not a candidate for a low power SET amp. Sorry tube guys, you can't have everything in one speaker.

http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/downloads/BipolarMLTLDesignPak.pdf

Jim Griffin has since designed other bipole MLTLs using Jordan and Mark Audio  drivers. I haven't heard these designs and I'm sure they surpass the CSS, but for the money this one is hard to beat. Here's a link to a thread about the Jordan and Mark Audio driver designs:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/137585-mark-audio-alpair-10-mltl-design.html

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=32227)
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Duke on 1 Jul 2010, 12:52 am
Very nice, Fred!

I like your incorporation of the rear-firing supertweeter.   Often a fullrange driver has decent highs on-axis, but off-axis the highs are weak.  Adding a rear-firing supertweeter improves the spectral balance of the reverberant energy.  I bet they sound rich and lively.

My first commercial effort was a bipolar based on Fostex drivers, a rear-firing supertweeter, and a built-in powered subwoofer section.  I figured adding all that extra stuff to a fullrange driver was cheating, so I called it the "Cheetah". 
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Jim Griffin on 2 Jul 2010, 01:36 am
Great work Fred!  I'm glad to hear that you still like that bipolar design.  Lots of sound for a very simple configuration.

My position on adding a tweeter to a bipolar pair of full range drivers is that Duke's approach (two-way woofer and tweeter on front and back baffles) along with a proper crossover is the ultimate solution.  Ask yourself whether a full range driver would do a better job of covering the whole band (including the upper ranges) versus a multi-way where-in a high quality tweeter covers the top 2 to 2.5 octaves or so.  Proper spacing between drivers and a crossover network that achieves the correct amplitude and phasing will yield optimal results.

But Duke points out, you can get magical sound with a rear mounted 'super tweeter' that adds ambience and airyness that improves the overall performance.   The supertweeter works without mucking up the full range driver sound. 

I like what you did and in fact I'm planning on trying out the planar tweeter (I'm trying a later planar version--the Hi Vi RT1.3) on the rear baffle of my prototype bipolar speakers.   If that sounds good, I'll next develop a proper crossover to compare to the  rear supertweeter version.

Jim
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Danny Richie on 2 Jul 2010, 02:12 am
Nice job Fred.

Of all of the full range drivers out there that I have been able to get my hands on and measure, I think that the FR-125 is the most accurate and among the best sounding.

That XBL^ motor structure actually gives the driver a little stronger output in the lower ranges compared to the upper ranges. The good thing about that is that it tends to mirror image much of the baffle step loss that you get from using those narrow baffles. Every other full range driver needs a compensation network to correct for the loss. With sensitivity already really low, you hate to have to loose even more from a compensation circuit. The FR-125 can get by without it.

I'll share one other little trick with you guys that I'd almost rather not... It is a really good one. I have found that a single FR-125 can only handle peaks of about 30 watts to reach full X-max using most music and playing them full range. So with this trick you can easily double power handling and then you can then put enough power on these to reach reasonable output levels.

Fred, for you, you can do this to each side.

Add a second woofer and bypass the lower woofer with a cap value that is between 47uF and 75uF. I usually end up with a 62uF or  75uF myself.

So wire it like this:

+_________________+
                                     }
                                     } top woofer
                                     }
                                    -
                                    I
                                    I
                   _________+
                  I                   }
                cap                } lower woofer
                  I                   }
-________I__________-


If you think it through then you will see that the upper frequency ranges pass through the cap and to the upper woofer only as that is a path of much less resistance for the upper ranges. But, as frequency decreases then the cap is more resistive and both woofers share the low frequency load together. Since with woofers are in phase and working together then they can share the same air space too. his will double power handling without causing any comb filtering effects that would disrupt the response.

I must also agree with Jim. As good as the FR-125 is, it still gets really outperformed by a well designed two way.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: planet10 on 2 Jul 2010, 04:48 am
Definitely not a candidate for a low power SET amp.

Not a candidate for any SE amp... tube., SS, or high powered. Seems that something about SE and the less than graceful limits of XBL drivers (at least in my experience) push them over the edge and the VC dramatically hits its stops.

dave
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: FredT300B on 2 Jul 2010, 10:47 am
My position on adding a tweeter to a bipolar pair of full range drivers is that Duke's approach (two-way woofer and tweeter on front and back baffles) along with a proper crossover is the ultimate solution.

Jim and Danny, I agree. Every year at the LSAF I'm able to compare the sound of single drivers to the sound of two-ways, and I always prefer the two-ways. Compared to a well designed two-way, single drivers have great sounding midrange, but their great midrange is often compromised by attenuated low bass, wooly mid bass, peaky lower treble and attenuated upper treble. Like an attractive woman who's great in bed but can't cook, single drivers can be lots of fun but for me they're better as an occasional partner than as a wife. :lol:

These speakers with the CSS drivers, driven within their power handling limits by the right amplifer, seem to overcome all the disadvantages of single drivers I mentioned above (except for the attenuated upper treble). Adding the supertweeter solves the upper treble issue without detracting from any of the other good features. The bipole design does result in a soundstage that's deeper than a monopole but not as precise, but it sounds more like live music.

Jim, if you care to comment I would be interested in how some of your more recent designs using Mark Audio drivers compare to this one.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Jim Griffin on 2 Jul 2010, 11:02 am
Danny,

Just a reminder that the original speaker design is a bipolar with two FR125's per box.  The power handling is inherently doubled plus you don't have the worry about baffle step comp with both front facing and rear facing drivers.  Your thought about using a capacitor to bypass one of the drivers in the box could work out to mitigate the wraparound dip (I measured about 2-3 dB) in the 400-500 Hz range with the bipolar design.  You could select the value of the cap to roll off the rear driver starting about 400 HZ so the dip is reduced.

Jim 
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: JLM on 2 Jul 2010, 01:06 pm
I love my EnABL'd Fostex F200A drivers.  IMO they represent the best compromise between the power/full range attributes of multi-driver designs and the purist single driver designs. 

Admittedly they cost 5 times what the CSS FR-125SR do (but less than many others).
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Duke on 2 Jul 2010, 06:09 pm
Your thought about using a capacitor to bypass one of the drivers in the box could work out to mitigate the wraparound dip (I measured about 2-3 dB) in the 400-500 Hz range with the bipolar design.  You could select the value of the cap to roll off the rear driver starting about 400 HZ so the dip is reduced.

With the addition of an inductor, the circuit could notch out the wrap-around dip.  Mirage notched out the wrap-around dip on their first generation bipolar, but not on subsequent models, to the best of my knowledge.  Since the wrap-around dip effectively disappears in the power response anyway, in my opinion we're better off leaving it in there, but it's a judgment call.  I tried it and prefererred the sound with the rear woofer un-notched.  The impedance curve is affected by notching out the wrap-around, in case that's a consideration.   
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: FredT300B on 6 Jul 2010, 12:31 am
Here's a picture of one speaker after final cosmetic finishing, with the baffle painted.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=32449)
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: versus rider on 7 Jul 2010, 03:22 pm
nice work, I am  a fan of the css fr125 myself and have 2 pairs of standmounts in regular use.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=32487)
these I built two years ago and they are currently being driven by a 300B set amp and sound excellent.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: JimJ on 9 Jul 2010, 12:48 pm
Alien-looking :D
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: motosapien on 11 Nov 2010, 11:48 am
I've just completed a Coniston^2 full range build.  It uses 2 CSS EL70 drivers that are 4ohms.  The lower mids and bass are as good as anything I have heard.  Simply intoxicating!!  I had them wired up in series but found the upper mids and high's somewhat muddy.  They sound better in parallel but this is a 2 ohm load.  I noticed Danny's trick above about removing the highs from the lower driver (in my case it's lower and on the inside edge of the cabinets ).  I ordered a 68 uF cap to give that a try.  I also ordered the above referenced ribbon tweets and the 1 uF caps to go with it.

My difficulty is I don't understand how to wire this up.  I can give Danny's trick a try easily since I have leads coming off all four drivers and will just do it bread board style on the floor with alligator clips.  What's giving me trouble is how to wire in the ribbon tweet. 
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: motosapien on 13 Nov 2010, 08:06 pm
I finally got the parts.  I'm listening now to the speakers wired in series with the 68uF cap across the second drivers.  It makes a huge difference!!  These are a whole nuther animal now.  And I'm pretty certain I won't need the ribbon tweeters anymore.  Once in a while you make a little change and it pays off big time.  Too bad I don't understand how the capacitor accomplishes this or where the frequency is tapered off but perhaps enough will soak in over time so I do.

Thanks Danny for sharing this.  And I'll be keeping my N2X's for when I want to listen to Niel Young's weld and such.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Danny Richie on 13 Nov 2010, 08:38 pm
I'm glad that worked out for you.

I don't think people realize just how destructive to the response it is by running full range drivers together like that. That simple cap trick solves the whole problem.

Try running the ribbon tweeter on the back side of the speaker or aiming it towards the ceiling. You might be surprised at what it does.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: motosapien on 15 Nov 2010, 11:32 am
I hooked up the ribbon tweets and you are right.  They add significant air and depth to the top end.  The caps did that for the lower registers balancing them nicely between higher mids and top which were too forward before the change.   Now I've got it on the top as well.  I threw an under handed pitch at them by playing the Cowboy Junkies Trinity Sessions first.  If there is a disc for demonstrating a properly integrated ribbon tweeter, this is it.  Today I'll pull the drivers and get it all soldered and mounted up proper.

So with two capacitors and a tweeter I have essentially created a three way speaker. So be it.  The sound is deep and sweet with nuance and detail I have not often heard. And there is a surprising range of music that play well on them.  They bloom early giving their gifts at lower volumes which make listening easy.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Danny Richie on 15 Nov 2010, 04:10 pm
Quote
So with two capacitors and a tweeter I have essentially created a three way speaker. So be it.


You still have no low pass crossover anywhere and no real crossover point. So you could still technically call it a 1.5 way design.

Regardless of how you want to think of it, the configuration does work very well.

Enjoy!
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: JLM on 15 Nov 2010, 05:17 pm
Help!! People are pissing in the pristine pool of single driver speakers under false pretenses.   :nono:

(Now you guys are discussing 4 drivers in a situ 3-way design, that's getting a long way from the prescribed home base.)
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: rajacat on 15 Nov 2010, 05:29 pm
Help!! People are pissing in the pristine pool of single driver speakers under false pretenses.   :nono:

(Now you guys are discussing 4 drivers in a situ 3-way design, that's getting a long way from the prescribed home base.)

+1

I agree. Once you start talking about multi-way designs and caps, etc.,  it will degenerate to active crossovers and so on. Seems to me that this circle should be limited to cabinet design, tweeks and driver choice/design. However, supertweeters could be allowed. :wink:

-Roy
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: motosapien on 16 Nov 2010, 02:39 am
Well, this is only two CSS EL70's and a super tweet.  You really can't listen to the two EL70's in the same cabinet without taking the highs away from one of them.  The box by Scott of Woden designs is spot on as are his stuffing recommendations.  So I turned one of them into a woofer with a cap.  My comment about it being a three way was a simplistic observation about the three drivers with different frequency ranges that combine to make something very musical and involving.

Give them a try.  They are wonderful.
 
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: rjbond3rd on 16 Nov 2010, 02:26 pm
If we're taking a poll, I vote for allowing any topics that deal with widebanders.

There are -so- few posts on this circle.  Often, a week goes by with just one, or sometimes no, posts.  Isn't it worth something to liven up the discussion?  If this circle got any quieter, I would probably forget to check it :)
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: JLM on 17 Nov 2010, 01:15 pm
I have no doubt that these speakers sound good, heck I own SD floorstanders, 2-way floorstanders, and 2-way standmounts with a sub and I like them all.

And I'd like to see this circle be busier too, but if you check with the posted ground rules these speakers don't fit the premise for this circle.

I just point this out in case the posters want to maybe stir up more conversation in a more appropriate arena.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: rjbond3rd on 17 Nov 2010, 02:24 pm
Hi JLM, understood and those are good points.

I just read the criteria, and they seem ideological and not the way the hobby is really practiced.  Jrebman says a couple times, "I have no interest in..." things like glorified midranges, telephone band etc.

Perhaps that's one reason why the circle is so quiet.  I also notice that he got a lot of pushback on the narrowness of the definition from some very notable builders.  Not trying to really stir things up (as there are other forums covering fullrangers) but it does seem sane to me to revisit the definition in light of the fact that the person who set the criteria is no longer here.

Or not!  I can understand the purity angle too.  I just got some AER Mk 1 which (I think) everyone would certainly consider to be "purist fullrangers," but my build narrowly misses the current criteria, which (to me) seems self-defeating for what is a pretty small niche in audio :)

I think if we were to propose a "Widebander Circle" people would say, Geez, doesn't the "Single Driver, Wide-Bandwidth Circle" already cover that?  :)  No worries though, just saying.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Danny Richie on 17 Nov 2010, 11:46 pm
Let's face it. None of those full range drivers are really full range. They just get a full range signal.

And I have only found one of the little full range drivers so far that did not need some type of a compensation circuit for the baffle step loss. It is the little FR-125 woofers. They have the XBL^ motor structures that increase output to the lower end verses the top end.

The drivers that I sell that use the XBL^ motor have a similar response that is heavier in the bottom end.

http://www.gr-research.com/images/m130x.jpg
http://www.gr-research.com/images/m-165response.jpg

This can mirror image most of the baffle step loss common with an appropriate sized baffle.

So unless you use a really wide baffle (bad) then a compensation network is needed.

Some other full range drivers also have a rising response in the top end that also needs to be adjusted too.

And since they often don't cover the top end very well or the bottom end very well then adding drivers to cover that also is going to be real common.

So you have to expect that all of this stuff will be done with full range drivers.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: planet10 on 18 Nov 2010, 06:22 am
Let's face it. None of those full range drivers are really full range. They just get a full range signal.

You won't find many multiways that are full range either.

Today the best of the full-ranges can do 9 octaves.

dave
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: JohnR on 18 Nov 2010, 07:02 am
I just got some AER Mk 1 which (I think) everyone would certainly consider to be "purist fullrangers," but my build narrowly misses the current criteria,

In what way?
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: JohnR on 18 Nov 2010, 07:07 am
Let's face it. None of those full range drivers are really full range. They just get a full range signal.

You know what Danny? Maybe you should stop trying to convert people AWAY from the use of full/wide-range drivers, in what after all is a circle specifically set up for discussion about speakers using them. What you think is actually kindof irrelevant.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: rjbond3rd on 18 Nov 2010, 02:00 pm
I think Danny's point was in support of mine -- that the criteria are too limiting when you look at the way the hobby is actually practiced. 

It just seems arbitrary.  Yes to a sub @80Hz, but no to a helper woofer @ 200Hz.   Yes to Jordan JX92S MLTL but not if it uses Dr. Jim Griffin's tweeter mod (which improves the sound and response).

I guess there are "single driver purists" vs. "single driver enthusiasts."  Really, we should have stuck with the term "wideband" as the Germans do (Breitband, broadband).

The AER Mk 1 build does not qualify because it's currently using an active crossover @240Hz to a woofer in a bass horn.  If I changed that to a sub / plate amp @80Hz, it would apparently qualify but would not sound as good :)
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: JohnR on 18 Nov 2010, 02:14 pm
OK, so... use the regular speaker circle then... (why not?)
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Danny Richie on 18 Nov 2010, 02:29 pm
I am not trying to convert anyone away from the use of full range drivers. The point is that people will add other drivers to them or put networks on them. So why structure the format to omit discussion of those things?
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: rjbond3rd on 18 Nov 2010, 02:39 pm
JohnR, are you familiar with the whole "single driver" culture?

People who build multi-ways are not much interested in wideband drivers actually.  The people who are interested in wideband drivers are the people who would come here, to the "Single Driver, Wide-Bandwidth Speakers" circle.

This circle's criteria are so bizarrely restrictive that most wideband designs are being (arbitrarily) excluded, which is why this circle is quiet.  It seems a shame.

It doesn't make much sense to post "wideband" stuff in multi-way when there is a circle with "wideband" in its title (but is exclusive to an extremely narrow subset of wideband).  Does this not seem strange?
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: JohnR on 18 Nov 2010, 02:47 pm
I am not trying to convert anyone away from the use of full range drivers. The point is that people will add other drivers to them or put networks on them. So why structure the format to omit discussion of those things?

The Facilitator who proposes a circle gets to set the guidelines. If he wants to, he can change them, or close the circle, or whatever. It has nothing to do with you.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: JohnR on 18 Nov 2010, 02:48 pm
JohnR, are you familiar with the whole "single driver" culture?

People who build multi-ways are not much interested in wideband drivers actually.  The people who are interested in wideband drivers are the people who would come here, to the "Single Driver, Wide-Bandwidth Speakers" circle.

This circle's criteria are so bizarrely restrictive that most wideband designs are being (arbitrarily) excluded, which is why this circle is quiet.  It seems a shame.

It doesn't make much sense to post "wideband" stuff in multi-way when there is a circle with "wideband" in its title (but is exclusive to an extremely narrow subset of wideband).  Does this not seem strange?

Well, you can talk to Jim about changing them, or taking over, or else make your own proposal.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Mariusz on 18 Nov 2010, 03:18 pm
It is up to facilitator to enforce, change or implement new rules.
I like the circle as it is and voted yes when it was originally proposed.

Danny
It is not fair and it doesn't look that good spreading the love for your own designs. (no matter how good they are)
Even worst - ...... trying to demolish enjoyment from other/different designs then your own.

Personally
I enjoy various designs of speakers, gear etc. (including SD and horn loudspeakers)
And certainly could not care less what fellow audiophiles or experts think about it.

PS
SD/horn design rule!!!!!
       

Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Danny Richie on 18 Nov 2010, 04:11 pm
Quote
Danny
It is not fair and it doesn't look that good spreading the love for your own designs. (no matter how good they are)
Even worst - ...... trying to demolish enjoyment from other/different designs then your own.


Where the hell did that come from?

I came on here and shared a cool wiring trick that allowed the use of multiple full range drivers without the destructive interference effects of running them both full range. And I bet that 99% of the people out there had never seen it before. Plus one guy already tried it and it worked out great for him.

Regarding anything of my own: I used the frequency response plots of two of my drivers with XBL^ motors (not posted but a link used for them) only to illustrate how the XBL^ motor full range drivers like the FR-125 (again that I don't sell), do not require a compensation circuit. And the link was to a frequency response curve and NOT a page on my site where I sell them.

I didn't advertise ANYTHING or promote ANYTHING that I sell.

And I also responded here because the original poster mentioned some free advice regarding this stuff that I gave out here  earlier that was regarding adding the super tweeter to the rear verses the front.... And it worked out great for him too!

You even got participation in this thread from another industry professional (Duke) and even more free how to tips. That was really good information!

Hey if you guys want to limit discussion to putting a wide band driver in a box period, that's fine. It's your circle. But don't tell me that I am "trying to demolish enjoyment from other/different designs then your own," when I am over here sharing free tips that you've never seen before and showing you guys how to have more fun with what you got. Especially with two people already posting here that the free tips worked out great for them.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: rjbond3rd on 18 Nov 2010, 04:13 pm
Hi JohnR, actually I addressed both those points above :)

Mariusz, Danny merely chimed in that the criteria are restrictive.  There is a lot of wideband action out there, yet this circle sees only a very narrow slice of it.  I agree that SD/horns rock and that's what prompted me to chime in.

Interesting that this circle would be so quiet except when the point was raised about why it's so quiet :)  No worries though, this is all in the spirit of fun and the love of the hobby.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: sts9fan on 18 Nov 2010, 04:20 pm
quiet is relative.  Compared to many it ain't that quiet.  If traffic was the #1 focus why not just make on giant circle?
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: rjbond3rd on 18 Nov 2010, 04:42 pm
Okay, I just wrote to Mr. Content regarding this.  Sorry for all the OT.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: sts9fan on 18 Nov 2010, 04:45 pm
Speaking of best sounding single drivers.  I am in the process of building a few examples so I can do a comparo jammy.  I have currently built a set using the CHR70 and FE103en.  Now I am working on a pair of double mouthed horns based on the Mark Audio Alpair6.  After that I will build a set of Frugal Horn 4s with the old Fe126.  Then I still have a set of 1st Gen Alpair10 to play with which I think I will but in the MarKen cab. 

Kris
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: rjbond3rd on 18 Nov 2010, 05:02 pm
Sweet!  I really love the Mark Audio drivers.  Alpair 10's are on my wish-list, and I'm eager to hear the new FH's.  You will have a pretty spectacular collection right there, dude.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: doorman on 18 Nov 2010, 05:43 pm
I'm currently really enjoying a pair of Chr-Ken's, w.(eNA) Chr-70's.
They work very well in this cab. Plenty (for me) of clean bass, and the best soundstaging I've had to date.
They also go louder than I'd ever require.
A fun build too!
Best, Don
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=38531)
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: opnly bafld on 18 Nov 2010, 06:27 pm

Of all of the full range drivers out there that I have been able to get my hands on and measure, I think that the FR-125 is the most accurate and among the best sounding.

I must also agree with Jim. As good as the FR-125 is, it still gets really outperformed by a well designed two way. My little A/V-1 for instance really eats up the FR-125 in every way.

I think statements like these in a "SD, wide bandwidth" circle is what causes the flack.

I suspect that many (myself included) appreciate the tips and suggestions from knowledgeable professionals like Duke and Danny.

Lin  :D
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: sts9fan on 18 Nov 2010, 06:28 pm
Cool!  Did you build those cabs?  I see you have Enabled drivers.  Did you hear them stock at all?  My pair of Alpair6s are Enabled.  I am dying to finish these Woden double mouthed horns but I am taking it slow...as usual. 
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: chrisby on 18 Nov 2010, 07:46 pm
I think statements like these in a "SD, wide bandwidth" circle is what causes the flack.

I suspect that many (myself included) appreciate the tips and suggestions from knowledgeable professionals like Duke and Danny.

Lin  :D


as a self described "wide-band enthusiast"  (kinda reminds me of sir mix a lot  :lol: ) but certainly not a purist (for me price alone excludes membership in that club), I certainly add my vote to that motion

there's no question that those of us involved to any degree in a commercial aspect of this hobby always risk the perception of conflict of interest in our posts - for me it would involve quite an intentional stretch to parse anything subversive in Danny's posts in this thread
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Danny Richie on 18 Nov 2010, 08:08 pm
I think statements like these in a "SD, wide bandwidth" circle is what causes the flack.

Lin  :D

Ah, point taken. I'll edit my original post. I shouldn't have compaired the FR-125's that I have to a two way that I sell.  :duh:

Funny thing is that I am still using the FR-125's as computer speakers on my desk.  :D
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: doorman on 18 Nov 2010, 08:40 pm
Cool!  Did you build those cabs?  I see you have Enabled drivers.  Did you hear them stock at all?  My pair of Alpair6s are Enabled.  I am dying to finish these Woden double mouthed horns but I am taking it slow...as usual.

The cabs are (my) DIY, I've not heard the stock drivers, but having had several other pairs of eNA drivers to compare with their stock siblings, I'll take the "eNABled"!
YMMV, of course. I've heard these drivers in the "Maeshowe's" they were killer, just a tad large for my wife, er room!!
Best, Don
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: sts9fan on 18 Nov 2010, 08:41 pm
I am building the smaller Dunideer. 
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Danny Richie on 18 Nov 2010, 09:03 pm
The cabs are (my) DIY, I've not heard the stock drivers, but having had several other pairs of eNA drivers to compare with their stock siblings, I'll take the "eNABled"!
Best, Don

Somebody added that treatment to some of my drivers and sent them to me to measure, test, and listen to.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: chrisby on 18 Nov 2010, 11:25 pm
Somebody added that treatment to some of my drivers and sent them to me to measure, test, and listen to.

your measurement findings vs stock will be very interesting, but might I suggest you listen to them first?
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Danny Richie on 18 Nov 2010, 11:30 pm
your measurement findings vs stock will be very interesting, but might I suggest you listen to them first?

I posted the measured data and listening comparisons here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59575.0
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: JohnR on 18 Nov 2010, 11:48 pm
Ah, point taken. I'll edit my original post. I shouldn't have compaired the FR-125's that I have to a two way that I sell.  :duh:

You're STILL completely missing the point. This is a circle for people interested in full-range drivers, and you barrel in here and (still) tell everybody that they should be building two-ways. You oughtta know better. If you don't want to support the goals of a circle, then stay out of it.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Danny Richie on 19 Nov 2010, 12:04 am
You're STILL completely missing the point. This is a circle for people interested in full-range drivers, and you barrel in here and (still) tell everybody that they should be building two-ways. You oughtta know better. If you don't want to support the goals of a circle, then stay out of it.

No I didn't barrel in here telling people that they should be building two ways. I was only referring to the FR-125's that I have not full range drivers in general. I am sorry that I even mentioned it. It was only in agreeing with Jim about them. It wasn't the point of my posting. If you read the rest of my initial post you will see that I was contributing to the topic of the original poster and sharing another way of making the full range drivers work well together when using more than one of them.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Mariusz on 19 Nov 2010, 12:59 am
I'm currently really enjoying a pair of Chr-Ken's, w.(eNA) Chr-70's.
They work very well in this cab. Plenty (for me) of clean bass, and the best soundstaging I've had to date.
They also go louder than I'd ever require.
A fun build too!
Best, Don
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=38531)

Back on topic.  :lol:

Nice work.  :wink:
Wonder how these cabs sound?
And would Jordans work in these enclosures?
Speaking of best sounding single drivers.  I am in the process of building a few examples so I can do a comparo jammy.  I have currently built a set using the CHR70 and FE103en.  Now I am working on a pair of double mouthed horns based on the Mark Audio Alpair6.  After that I will build a set of Frugal Horn 4s with the old Fe126.  Then I still have a set of 1st Gen Alpair10 to play with which I think I will but in the MarKen cab. 

Kris

Double mouth horns are one of my favorite designs. Most are also relatively easy to build.
The only downside might be size which beside being intimidating and sometimes impractical is also least favorite between girlfriends and wives. (appearance)     
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Mariusz on 19 Nov 2010, 01:11 am
Oh yeah :duh:

And Jordans are my favorite small full range drivers.  :thumb:


PS

Danny
Do not take this personally.
It is just my personal opinion.
There is time and place for everything ........ Inclueding your helpful tips, advice and in depth speaker design philosophies. This thread just might not be the best place for it.
 :thumb:
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Danny Richie on 19 Nov 2010, 01:34 am
Danny
Do not take this personally.
It is just my personal opinion.
There is time and place for everything ........ Inclueding your helpful tips, advice and in depth speaker design philosophies. This thread just might not be the best place for it.
 :thumb:

Mariusz,

Ah, from the original post that started this thread:

Quote
I recently read Danny Ritchie's advice about adding a supertweeter to a full range speaker (mount it on the back), and I took that advice.


This guy seemed to appreciate the cap by-pass wiring tip too:

Quote
I finally got the parts.  I'm listening now to the speakers wired in series with the 68uF cap across the second drivers.  It makes a huge difference!!  These are a whole nuther animal now.

Then he tried the ribbon tweeter facing the rear trick:

Quote
I hooked up the ribbon tweets and you are right.  They add significant air and depth to the top end.  The caps did that for the lower registers balancing them nicely between higher mids and top which were too forward before the change. 


So at least some people appreciated the tips.

But hey, if you want to run me off, fine.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: planet10 on 19 Nov 2010, 01:52 am
Wonder how these cabs sound?
And would Jordans work in these enclosures?

Very good, if those that have built them would attest (i'm one of those :))

Jordan won't work (needs a smaller box), but the Alpair 7 does with appropriate changes to the vent spacers (driver hole + holey brace too)

(http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/images/dMar-Ken-caramel-bamboo.jpg)

There are family members for FE127e, FE167e, Alpair 10, EL70, CHR70, Alpair 12. And FF85, Alpair 6 in the queue. Twin versions too.

dave
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: planet10 on 19 Nov 2010, 01:58 am
This guy seemed to appreciate the cap by-pass wiring tip

Me three. Not that the idea was new, but that someone tried it and got good results. There are quite a few Twin Mark Audio projects and many could benefit from similar depending on the room.

dave
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: doorman on 19 Nov 2010, 02:02 am
Very good, if those that have built them would attest (i'm one of those :))

Jordan won't work (needs a smaller box), but the Alpair 7 does with appropriate changes to the vent spacers (driver hole + holey brace too)

(http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FAL/images/dMar-Ken-caramel-bamboo.jpg)

dave
Those bamboo cabs are tres handsome!
well done, Dave & Chris--
Best, Don
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Mariusz on 19 Nov 2010, 02:03 am
Very good, if those that have built them would attest (i'm one of those :))

Jordan won't work (needs a smaller box), but the Alpair 7 does with appropriate changes to the vent spacers (driver hole + holey brace too)

dave

Thanks Dave. I guess that I'll stick to PE curved boxes then. :thumb:
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: planet10 on 19 Nov 2010, 02:05 am
Those bamboo cabs are tres handsome!

Not as slick now, after the post office lost the top of the box and skidding them along the floor. Now the possesion of Canada Post in Ottawa. We'll need to build Bud another pair once all is said & done.

And wait till you see mine :)

done
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: planet10 on 19 Nov 2010, 02:06 am
Thanks Dave. I guess that I'll stick to PE curved boxes then. :thumb:

We have our JS92 in a set of 7 litre PE curvies... ported to Jim Griffins specs. Use them to help show how good the CHR70eNs are.

dave
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: JohnR on 19 Nov 2010, 02:14 am
Okay, I just wrote to Mr. Content regarding this.  Sorry for all the OT.

I forgot there was a change already. So that would be Nigel, not Jim. I guess we'll hear anything if there is anything to hear. If you do take over and plan to make significant changes to the purpose/guidelines then it would probably be best to run a poll first.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Mariusz on 19 Nov 2010, 02:18 am
Mariusz,

Ah, from the original post that started this thread:
 

This guy seemed to appreciate the cap by-pass wiring tip too:

Then he tried the ribbon tweeter facing the rear trick:
 

So at least some people appreciated the tips.

But hey, if you want to run me off, fine.

Danny
I am pretty sure that MORE people would appreciate your feedback, tips and tricks but please understand the fundamental purpose of this circle.
(if we start adding tweeters, woofers........perhaps bi or tri-amping etc...........well, you see where I am going with this - it just wouldn't make a very nice SD speaker desingn, would it?  :wink:)

BTW
I've a feeling that you're taking it a bit too personal and you really shouldn't.
You are really nice guy and this certainly isn't a witch hunt but a friendly request to respect originally lay down guidelines. That's all. :thumb:
 
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Danny Richie on 19 Nov 2010, 02:32 am
Danny
I am pretty sure that MORE people would appreciate your feedback, tips and tricks but please understand the fundamental purpose of this circle.
(if we start adding tweeters, woofers........perhaps bi or tri-amping etc...........well, you see where I am going with this - it just wouldn't make a very nice SD speaker desingn, would it?  :wink:)

BTW
I've a feeling that you're taking it a bit too personal and you really shouldn't.
You are really nice guy and this certainly isn't a witch hunt but a friendly request to respect originally lay down guidelines. That's all. :thumb:

I can respect the guidelines of the circle and apologize if I strayed from those guidelines, but I am not the one that started this thread and discussion about adding tweeters, etc. And I am not the only one that discussed it. So don't just blame me. If it started out beyond the guidelines of the circle then maybe the moderator should have moved it to another circle to begin with.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: JohnR on 19 Nov 2010, 12:34 pm
The original post is fine and within the guidelines. That is obvious, so frankly Danny, it really feels to me at that point that you're mostly interested in dominating the speaker discussion on this site, and I'm afraid that isn't going to fly. You have your circle; outside of that, you have to respect the spirit and intent of wherever it is that you are posting.

As far as the guidelines go, in my opinion, the existing guidelines are very well thought-out. Even if you don't agree, that's too bad, because they're set, until changed. They would only be changed by someone with a genuine (and non-commercial) interest in this particular type of loudspeaker. You (Danny) have no real interest in single-driver speakers - you don't sell one, or a kit for one, or anything. Your position on single-driver speakers seems to be pretty well summed up by your statement

I have yet to find a full range type driver that will do it for me with or without a tweeter added.

I'm not going to go dig up every anti-fullrange quote from you in this here circle but they aren't hard to find. If you want to help people - great. But seriously, you need to be a bit more supportive of any specific circle's goals if you're going to continue to post outside your own circle.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: Danny Richie on 19 Nov 2010, 02:28 pm
Quote
That is obvious, so frankly Danny, it really feels to me at that point that you're mostly interested in dominating the speaker discussion on this site, and I'm afraid that isn't going to fly.

No John, that is not true at all. I am not out to dominate speaker discussion on this site. And I rarely have had time to even post outside of my own circle.

And just because I haven't found a full range driver that does it for me does not me I am anti-full range. I have even designed networks for commercial speakers that use full range drivers. And I might be working with a field coil driver soon. I also have stacks of full range drivers here that I have tested. Some of them are really good.

It is pretty clear though that an industry member has his hands tied when it comes to any subjective opinion being stated about anything. So I'll try not to say anything of that nature any more if I can help it and will venture less outside my own circle.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: JLM on 19 Nov 2010, 03:03 pm
Wow, glad I generated so much activity, too bad most of it revolves around brused feelings.  I don't know why this little corner of audiodom seems to generate so much angst.  IME single driver designs focus on the essence of the music (the critical midrange) and, more so than in other designs, willing gives up what so much of the industry thrives on (numbers games, constantly upgrading, and pushing the boundries into the impractical).

OTOH, yes a very purist/strict approach to very wide-bandwidth single driver speakers leaves very few options and most of those are very expensive.  But a great many good, less expensive options exist if you add a subwoofer or even a super tweeter, that still stay within the ground rules as I read them. 

One of the other premises I like about the single driver approach is the admission that there is no perfect speaker.  If everyone would admit that, it might bring some of the "high and mightys" (who would never visit this circle) to appreciate the single driver concept.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: sts9fan on 19 Nov 2010, 03:12 pm
I also think they are a great way to drag people into this diseased state.  The entry price is a bit more "normal" and you can get really FUN sound with them.  I have been on a crusade by lending people the ones I build.  Maybe some will take the bait. 
we tried our best to get this back on track but alas.
I did weld up some stands for my Solo103s last night. 

Edit:  I also totally disagree that this is a quiet circle.  Most of them get way less traffic.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: mytubes211 on 19 Nov 2010, 04:07 pm
Quote
  So I'll try not to say anything of that nature any more if I can help it and will venture less outside my own circle.

But Danny, you know that you can not help yourself. 
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: chrisby on 19 Nov 2010, 04:41 pm
I posted the measured data and listening comparisons here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59575.0


thanks, I'd assumed the testing session was more recent than that

Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: chrisby on 19 Nov 2010, 05:25 pm
I also think they are a great way to drag people into this diseased state.  The entry price is a bit more "normal" and you can get really FUN sound with them.  I have been on a crusade by lending people the ones I build.  Maybe some will take the bait. 
we tried our best to get this back on track but alas.
I did weld up some stands for my Solo103s last night. 

Edit:  I also totally disagree that this is a quiet circle.  Most of them get way less traffic.

lest we forget - there can be such a thing as too much "traffic" and emotional reactionism, and not enough circumspection or consideration of context (case in point - the provenance of this particular incarnation of AC "full-range" forum )

there are numerous reasons/pathways that brought us hobbyists to this lifestyle / addiction, and while we all like to tell ourselves little white lies as to our intentions, it would be disingenuous to aver that some degree of egotism isn't involved when it comes to forum postings

That said, I can certainly understand how the attitude or implied motives of Danny's posts in this thread could be considered no more provocative, contrarian or self-serving than many of my and several others' own here and elsewhere.  Actually, I know for a fact how easily an initial comment can be misinterpreted, and a reputation built on the willful misconstruction and selective parsing of all subsequent discussions.

it's a thin line

Human nature being what it is, I'm not sure that even a thorough revision / restatement of forum guidelines, even assuming consensus, would preclude recurrence of these occasional hissy fits. 

 
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: JohnR on 21 Nov 2010, 01:25 pm
I also think they are a great way to drag people into this diseased state.  The entry price is a bit more "normal" and you can get really FUN sound with them. 

I absolutely agree. After a number of very disappointing experiences with commercial (off-the-shelf and kit) two-ways, building some speakers using full-range drivers was an important way for me to recover some enthusiasm for the hobby.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: el`Ol on 21 Nov 2010, 06:43 pm
I have heard 6.5" Lowther, Veravox 5, Fostex FE126E, Ciare CH250 HX201 HX160 HX135, various mid-fi drivers incl. B*SE. The only one that has transparent, non-smoky highs in my ears is the HX135. Wish it had the freedom of compression as larger/more sensitive drivers.
What is the largest "non-papery" sounding paper cone you know?
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: rjbond3rd on 21 Nov 2010, 07:44 pm
8" AER Mk 1 sounds good and there's no papery sound.  It is very extended, smooth and balanced.  No audible peaks jump out at me.  AER is like a very neutral Lowther, which I suppose it was designed to be.

I will try to hear the Ciare HX135, el `Ol.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: rajacat on 21 Nov 2010, 08:06 pm
IMO the Omega 5" hempcone drivers handle high frequencies very well. They can catch the slightest shimmer of cymbals and hold on to it. I can hear the piccolo in a symphony and catch the entire range of the orchestra. (I think! :lol:) However, in order the capture all the lows and their impact a sub is required. I have the Omega Hemp Bipoles that double the displacement so that the little drivers aren't overwhelmed with larger works. The bipoles also help with the baffle step problem and and my homemade felt defraction busters help too. :green:

I surprised that the bipole configuration hasn't received more attention by speaker builders. I suppose it's because the form requires a substantial distance from the back wall to work properly. If you have a dedicated audio room the problem is solved. :) I suppose that, intuitively you'd think that they wouldn't image well but I've found mine to image well enough to place the instruments in an orchestra and small jazz groups it's almost pinpoint. Their main drawback would be the lack of that big speaker feel although it's amazing how those 4 little drivers can fill a room. Also if I push them hard they'll sound stressed at very high volume.



(http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/images/products/drivers/mq5lboth.gif)

Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: FredT300B on 21 Nov 2010, 08:57 pm
This thread has covered a lot of ground since my initial post in June. I didn't mention in the initial post there's an on-off switch for the rear-firing supertweeter, so if I switch it to the off position they definitely qualify as single drivers, but anybody who hears them with the tweeter off and with it switched on will prefer it in the on position, especially if the music includes percussion instruments.

To my ears these speakers sound more natural, with fewer frequency response anomalies than any of the other single driver speakers I've built using Audion Nirvana, Fostex and Tang Band full range drivers. And they do this with no contour network - the only thing between the amp and the drivers is a binding post. Since their last appearance on AC these speakers have received new outrigger feet, a new paint job for the front baffle, and upgraded binding posts on the back.

In this picture they're being driven by a 1,000W/ch (into their 4 ohms impedance) D-Sonic Icepower amp. Great bass control  :D

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=38943)

Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: el`Ol on 21 Nov 2010, 09:39 pm
I will try to hear the Ciare HX135, el `Ol.
I will build 80 cm folded TLs with driver on top the next weeks and report about it. 160 cm TL length looks good in simulations and tonally it is best slightly less than 90° off-axis. Reducing excursion with the TLs could also be benedicial when it's getting louder, compared to quasi-IB.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: planet10 on 21 Nov 2010, 10:41 pm
IMO the Omega 5" hempcone drivers handle high frequencies very well.

By all reports an excellent sounding driver.

Interesting that the label says patented, last i checked it was a patent application... and the preferred receipe for the paper had manillia hemp, which isn't really hemp at all (as referenced to true hemp from the Cannabis plant). Manillia is a relative to the banana plant.

dave
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: cujobob on 21 Nov 2010, 10:45 pm
What's a great 'value' single driver to mess around with?  By that, I mean something that truly wows at its pricepoint...whatever it may be.  I'm just looking for something to round out my collection of various designs just to see what I like and what works in different applications.

Are drivers interchangeable of the same size (cutouts0?  I'm wondering if I have someone build me out a box if I could use that box to try different drivers.  I'm guessing within a same brand it's possible, at the very least.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: planet10 on 21 Nov 2010, 10:58 pm
Madisound is almost giving away Mark Audio CHR70 (based on price/performance). Add an EnABL kit from Ed laFontaine (and use it) and you have something that outclasses Jordan JX92S.

https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=192&products_id=8859 (also available in grey)

(https://www.madisound.com/store/images/CHR70-Gold.jpg)

Lots of proven boxes -- from 5 litre sealed up to 5 ft high double mouthed horns

dave
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: planet10 on 21 Nov 2010, 11:11 pm
Quote
CHR70

In reply #40 Don (aka Doorman) posted a pic of his fully done up 1st gen CHRs in the CHR-Ken enclosure (pronounced as in the sea monster)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Colossal_octopus_by_Pierre_Denys_de_Montfort.jpg)

dave
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: doorman on 22 Nov 2010, 12:41 am
And thanks to Dave & TerryO, they wound up in the above enclosures!!
(plan to attend next years Vancouver Isl. DIY fest, and you too could get lucky!!)
Best, Don
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: chrisby on 22 Nov 2010, 07:05 pm
IMO the Omega 5" hempcone drivers handle high frequencies very well. They can catch the slightest shimmer of cymbals and hold on to it. I can hear the piccolo in a symphony and catch the entire range of the orchestra. (I think! :lol:) However, in order the capture all the lows and their impact a sub is required. I have the Omega Hemp Bipoles that double the displacement so that the little drivers aren't overwhelmed with larger works. The bipoles also help with the baffle step problem and and my homemade felt defraction busters help too. :green:

I surprised that the bipole configuration hasn't received more attention by speaker builders. I suppose it's because the form requires a substantial distance from the back wall to work properly. If you have a dedicated audio room the problem is solved. :) I suppose that, intuitively you'd think that they wouldn't image well but I've found mine to image well enough to place the instruments in an orchestra and small jazz groups it's almost pinpoint. Their main drawback would be the lack of that big speaker feel although it's amazing how those 4 little drivers can fill a room. Also if I push them hard they'll sound stressed at very high volume.



(http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/images/products/drivers/mq5lboth.gif)


yup, bipoles (or dipoles / panels etc) certainly have their placement issues, but in the right room /placement can do amazing things

I had a chance to hear Louis' little bipole Super3s at VSAC back in 2003 (this was still Fostex FE127 - long before he adopted the OEM Hemps) - silly good speaker more well suited to the type of crappy hotel suites common at these shows than many of the large multiways or front loaded horns. When connected in parallel, a little 3-4 watts of EL84 SET was more than enough (for chicks and guitars anyways  :green: )

Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: motosapien on 24 Nov 2010, 12:54 pm
I am building the smaller Dunideer.

http://www.wodendesign.com/dunideer.html

These are lovely designs.  Scott's got the cabinet volumes spot on judging by the performance of my Coniston^2's which are similar double mouth horns.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: JohnR on 24 Nov 2010, 03:23 pm
I feel a bit lost when looking at some of those plans. What tolerance is typically needed on the positioning of the internal panels?
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: sts9fan on 24 Nov 2010, 04:21 pm
This is my first build of folded horns so I really have no idea.  I would love to get some feedback from Dave, Chris or someone with lots of experience building these types of boxes.  I will say that I cannot worry too much over 1/16" or else I would never be done.   :duh:
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: chrisby on 24 Nov 2010, 06:03 pm
I feel a bit lost when looking at some of those plans. What tolerance is typically needed on the positioning of the internal panels?
This is my first build of folded horns so I really have no idea.  I would love to get some feedback from Dave, Chris or someone with lots of experience building these types of boxes.  I will say that I cannot worry too much over 1/16" or else I would never be done.   :duh:


The engineer in Scott would likely say:  tolerance is pretty darned important - and I'd suggest within 1mm ( 1/25th in).  On many of the concatenated 90` manifold designs, cumulative error of more than that on cut lengths can result in parts that might "fit" but change the CSA or length of individual sections.   


Of course the speaker will still make sound, and unless errors are egregious, it might be harder to actually hear than measure any deleterious effects. 

One of the table saws that I regularly use has an off calibration gauge on the sliding fence ( honestly - the adhered tape measure is misprinted, and varies in accuracy depending on distance from blade).  It's easy to forget about it, and has resulted in having to recut parts to actually fit together countless times. As long as all corresponding parts on the manifold designs are cut at the same setting, things seem to work out, and no listener has yet identified minor variances from drawn dimensions.     

Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: planet10 on 24 Nov 2010, 06:07 pm
I feel a bit lost when looking at some of those plans. What tolerance is typically needed on the positioning of the internal panels?

Woden plans are (eventually) rationalized for either imperial or metric depending on the sheet material, but the CAD software allows display of (and we use) both. Scott gives me the design dimensions in inches. So if you see a metric to a tenth of a mm then it is an inches derived design. If you see 32nds of an in then metric. If both, then we aren't done (usually). Accuracy to 1/8 or a couple mm is usually fine -- as long as there are no gaps. Available sheet material can vary this much, and we've seen almost that much in the same sheet.

So before cutting, measure how thick your plywood is, and adjust dimensions as required. Slot ports & internal dimensions trumping external dimensions. Eventually all the Woden plans should have a number of different plans for different sheet thicknesses. By default we start with 3/4", 18mm, 15mm. This means you can start from the plans that have the material closest to what you have purchased.

dave
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: sts9fan on 24 Nov 2010, 06:29 pm
That makes me feel better.  I have not been 1/8 off on any panel.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: wushuliu on 5 Dec 2010, 08:07 am
I have Alpair 12s breaking in a (less than ideal) ported box. 50hrs in and in some ways they sound much better than I expected. I'm comparing them to my Modula MTMs (see gallery), which couldn't be more opposite (the crossover cost more than the drivers). With a sub filling in the <100hz, it's definitely full range. Dispersion is great, not a lot of toe-in needed. Definitely does not need a tweeter. Lots of break-in time left so I will wait before commenting more, but one thing I found cool is that my Stones Sticky Fingers was the one album that really didn't sound good w/ the Modulas. Everything else awesome, but this just sounded like a poor 70s recording. The Alpairs on the other hand has a competely different delivery and the album now sounds terrific. Surprised the heck out of me, especially as it's a gritty and sometimes 'busy' rock album. In general, the Alpairs handle rock really well so far. At least at moderate volumes (I'm not a turn it to 11 type of guy). Hope they pan out so that I can get rid off all my inductors and caps and resistors and...
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: JohnR on 5 Dec 2010, 11:28 am
Interesting to hear. What (type of) box are you planning to put them in eventually?
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: wushuliu on 5 Dec 2010, 06:22 pm
Interesting to hear. What (type of) box are you planning to put them in eventually?

I'd like to try the SuperPensil 12, but the gf probably wouldn't be too keen on that. Since I rely on the local lumber/hardware store to do my cuts, I can't get too crazy with box design. So either Dave's double bass reflex, basic bass reflex, or Classic GR. That said, the current box (19L with 2.75"x3.75" port, from spare stuff I had lying around) sounds pretty good. Winisd shows a 2db peak at 70-80hz, but I don't really hear it...

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=39616)





Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: sts9fan on 5 Dec 2010, 06:41 pm
Nice!  I need to decide what to build next. Either the Frugal Horn 3 or an Onken with the Alpair10. I sanded up my Dunideers today. Now I just need to finish them.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: planet10 on 5 Dec 2010, 11:02 pm
Dave's double bass reflex

Scott gets credit for that design... i just drew it up.

dave
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: mor2bz on 6 Dec 2010, 09:16 pm
very interesting wush: wish i could hear them.  what do they sound like with
the port stuffed?

what about a cab like that sealed (for better driver protection at higher
vol.) but with the driver on the big face ( for less baffle step loss)
+ 2 subs on the bottom (seem bastani forum for integration info)?
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: wushuliu on 7 Dec 2010, 06:33 am
very interesting wush: wish i could hear them.  what do they sound like with
the port stuffed?

what about a cab like that sealed (for better driver protection at higher
vol.) but with the driver on the big face ( for less baffle step loss)
+ 2 subs on the bottom (seem bastani forum for integration info)?

They naturally sound a little cleaner with port stuffed but the large box size creates an early roll-off. 2 subs on the bottom?! I'm afraid my relationship is not a democracy... she would not be happy about that.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: wushuliu on 7 Dec 2010, 06:38 am
Nice!  I need to decide what to build next. Either the Frugal Horn 3 or an Onken with the Alpair10. I sanded up my Dunideers today. Now I just need to finish them.

Pics!
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: chrisby on 8 Dec 2010, 07:49 pm
Nice!  I need to decide what to build next. Either the Frugal Horn 3 or an Onken with the Alpair10. I sanded up my Dunideers today. Now I just need to finish them.


if it's not too late , and if you're looking for votes    :roll:  - of the 2 listed, I'd definitely go for a "-ken" style with any of the Mark Audio drivers larger than 70mm ( ie. CHR / EL 70 or Alpair 7)   

The FH3 kicks serious a$$ with the FE126E, but IMHO the more refined and evenly balanced Alpairs don't need the same degree of help in the lower frequencies, and come into their own in a sealed or resistively vented enclosure. 
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: sts9fan on 8 Dec 2010, 08:16 pm
I think my post was poorly worded.  I do have a pair of 126e for the FH3.  I think I am leaning towards the Onken anyway.  They both will be built its just a matter of order. 

Kris
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: JohnR on 9 Dec 2010, 11:45 am
I sanded up my Dunideers today.

That was fast  :o :o
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: sts9fan on 9 Dec 2010, 02:07 pm
Quote
Pics!

I will post one later today.

Quote
That was fast   

You could say I am on a roll.  I think I need to re-cut the supra-baffle  because I got a bunch of chip out when routing the driver cut out.  I am not sure if I was at too high a speed or what.  Any suggestions here would be great. 

Kris 

More info:  I am using an up spiral bit.  Maybe a down?  masking tape?

Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: chrisby on 9 Dec 2010, 08:00 pm
I will post one later today.

You could say I am on a roll.  I think I need to re-cut the supra-baffle  because I got a bunch of chip out when routing the driver cut out.  I am not sure if I was at too high a speed or what.  Any suggestions here would be great. 

Kris 

More info:  I am using an up spiral bit.  Maybe a down?  masking tape?

try both (down spiral bit and masking) -  the bit speed is likely less of an issue than the feed rate (another case where I find a slow-hand is better  :roll:) and/or direction - was the chip out across grain only, at corners where it changed from long to cross grain, or any/all?

BTW, regarding the Onken - remind me of which driver you have in mind?




   
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: sts9fan on 9 Dec 2010, 08:22 pm
For the Onken I have Alpair 10s

Honestly right now i do not want to pony up for the new bit.  I know its only $30 but you know.  I am going to try masking and the up bit.  Also I think I am getting your question on the chip out.  I will look at it tonight and see where it came out. 
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: chrisby on 9 Dec 2010, 09:47 pm
For the Onken I have Alpair 10s

You might want to contact Dave re plans - I've built versions for all Mark Audio/Alpairs except this one, and haven't even seen the drawings myself ( yet)
Quote


Honestly right now i do not want to pony up for the new bit.  I know its only $30 but you know.  I am going to try masking and the up bit.  Also I think I am getting your question on the chip out.  I will look at it tonight and see where it came out.


How will these be finished?  If the chip-out is small enough, there are some very nice latex based color matched fillers  (e.g. Famowood) that might leave an acceptable repair under a clear coat finish - and if not sometimes an alternate color or material on the driver mounting panel can be an "artistic statement"  :thumb:
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: sts9fan on 9 Dec 2010, 10:30 pm
The chipout only seems to be an issue on the cross cut.  I agree that a small fix is no biggie. The question is how many " no biggies" equal a
"biggie". I expect I will do as you say and if it drives me crazy I will paint it in the spring. Like that will ever happen.  :lol:

here is a pic from the dungeon


(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_2BCe0eSjHpI/TQFa5rSAcVI/AAAAAAAAAlQ/AO52gtsjGik/s640/P1000691.JPG)
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: chrisby on 14 Dec 2010, 06:37 pm
sts9fan:

nice work - having fun with this DIY thing yet  :thumb:
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: sts9fan on 14 Dec 2010, 07:55 pm
Its ok :roll:
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: el`Ol on 25 Dec 2010, 07:53 am
I will try to hear the Ciare HX135, el `Ol.

I have them running in 1m massively damped slim enclosures, ceiling firing. Would need lower placement for ideal treble and need quite close placement to the walls for good bass. But temporarily they will stay that way, they are for my brother in law who temporarily needs a little single accommodation over the week. A more interesting solution for real hifi is probably a pyramid-shaped enclosure of low height which gives good treble and also provides enough floor loading for the bass. Three of those pyramids could be an intersting supplement for your AERs to increase indirect sound. A center pyramid for the L+R signal, a left rear with the L-R signal and a right rear with the R-L signal, all running with about -10dB.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: BPoletti on 7 Feb 2011, 02:35 am
Good information.  But the topic of the thread has not been answered.  Maybe the question needs a tweak.  So let's try this:

What is the best sounding single driver ("fr driver") / enclosure combination? 

Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: planet10 on 7 Feb 2011, 03:30 am
You still aren't going to get an answer that comprises a single driver/box combo.

Room, amp, and more importantly, what trade-offs are the best match to the listner's taste & budget.

dave
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: rjbond3rd on 7 Feb 2011, 02:22 pm
Hi BPoletti,

I bet you would get a lot of responses, though, if the question were re-phrased as "best single driver / cab combo(s) that you've ever heard," with the caveat that some combos sound best with certain types of music.
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: chrisby on 7 Feb 2011, 06:11 pm
Good information.  But the topic of the thread has not been answered.  Maybe the question needs a tweak.  So let's try this:

What is the best sounding single driver ("fr driver") / enclosure combination?


yet another facetious reply, as there would be whether qualified with "single driver"  or not

there is no such thing as "best" -  just the most practical compromise that works for your system at the time

for me that the "best" I can hope for an audio system is for it to get out of its own way - as in not call attention to its weaknesses or strengths, and let me connect emotionally to the performance

of course not all music is worth the effort  :nono:

Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: wushuliu on 7 Feb 2011, 07:12 pm
of course not all music is worth the effort  :nono:

Then the next question has to be: 'what's the best music for the best single driver/enclosure combo?' :o :lol:
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: chrisby on 7 Feb 2011, 07:37 pm
Then the next question has to be: 'what's the best music for the best single driver/enclosure combo?' :o :lol:


the cast of Glee soundtrack  :wink:
Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: wushuliu on 7 Feb 2011, 08:00 pm

the cast of Glee soundtrack  :wink:

Oh no. You seem like a reasonable person. I'll pretend you didn't say that. :no_hear:



Title: Re: Best Sounding Single Drivers
Post by: chrisby on 8 Feb 2011, 07:13 pm
I was feeling a bit puckish, and was also considering "Christina mangling the anthem" - hard to believe the same performer who knocked it out of the park with "It's a Man's World" at the Grammys a few years back, but I digress

Sarah Shahi's home video of  "Twinkle Twinkle, little star" to her baby  - while only an imaginary release, it'd definitely be on my Christmas wishlist

all kidding aside - replies to the "best music" question could run to hundreds of pages, but hopefully without the vitriol that the previous question often invokes

It's greatly a matter of personal taste - for me the quality of the recording can make or break the listenability of the performance. As someone with negative musical talent, I want to connect to the emotional content and thereby feel a small measure of participation - I just make sure the blinds are closed and the room is empty before dancing  :P