[Slapshot]

As the title says, I'm seriously considering a move to a pair of 3.7i's. I had originally looked into this about 18 months ago, but a major unexpected financial setback eliminated the possibility at that time. Things have recovered for the better, and I was also just recently gifted with a significant sum of money by a dear friend who just passed away. Knowing me as well as he did, his instructions to the lawyer were to inform me that "the funds were to be used to upgrade my audio system in a way I could not otherwise afford". The funding he so kindly provided will cover the 3.7 i's and at least a major portion of the cost of a power amplifier (depending on exactly what I choose). Moving to Maggies would be a big step, as I am currently using a SET system. However, there is an issue with the existing speakers that would cause me to replace them, and that's not economically feasible. Some of you may have noted that once you get into high quality very high efficiency speakers, the cost to get to equal or better levels demands a financial portfolio heavy in gold bars and Krugerrands. And I literally cannot afford to replace my existing speakers with anything comparable.

I spent close to two hours auditioning the 3.7i's on Saturday at the one dealer in my extended area. I came away extremely impressed with the incredibly natural quality of the presentation, and the nearly 3D imaging. I really loved what I was hearing, but could use the assistance from those of you with the necessary expertise to help me to make sure that I am making the right choice for me. Following are the key questions I have remaining, and your help and advice would be immensely appreciated.

The basics - my room is 13x16. Per the setup I listened to on Saturday, in a room much longer, but less wide than mine, the perfect position was with the speakers 6.5 feet apart, and my listening spot eight feet away. That is easily workable in my room, so I should be okay. Also, in a previous thread I started back 18 months ago, many of you were helpful enough to confirm I have enough space. For an amplifier, I would be considering a Pass X250.5, amongst others. I know the X250.8 and the 3.7i's stole the show at Axpona a couple years back. But the .5's are warmer, and I absolutely need that if I am moving from being a dedicated tube guy. Unfortunately, there do not seem to be any remotely affordable tube amps with the power to drive these, as well as also being able to handle the load variances. My music listening consists of about 40% singer.songriter, 20% acoustic, 30% rock, 10% other

Have any of you ever gone to the larger Magnepan models and regretted leaving behind traditional speakers due to dynamic limitations?

Can the 3.7i's effectively handle louder (not at any kind of crazy level) classic and prog rock well? Yes, Genesis, ELP, Led Zeppelin, the Who, etc. Is a sub (or two?) needed?

If the answer to the above is that a subwoofer is needed (and can I get by with only one?) are there any affordable recommendations (used is fine) that would merge well with the 3.7i's and not limit the overall sound quality?

[7x57]

I was not too impressed with the Maggies I have heard. Too much distortion in the bass, and they are driven single-ended with magnets on one side of the panel, when they should be on both sides for true push-pull operation.

I bought a pair of VMPS speakers, which use the Neopanel midranges which are true push-pull with magnets on both sides of the panel. The bass is handled by cones, which still excel is bass reproduction.

I made this purchase in 2001, but VMPS went out of business in 2012. The VMPS Neopanels produce the best midrange I ever heard from a loudspeaker.

[limniscate]

I don't believe that Magnepans are the best speaker for rock.  I've owned the MMGs, 1.7i's, 3.7's and 3.7i's.  How far do you plan to have them from the front wall?  Are you setting up against the long wall or the short wall?  I think your room is a little small for the 3.7i's. 

[Slapshot]

I don't believe that Magnepans are the best speaker for rock.  I've owned the MMGs, 1.7i's, 3.7's and 3.7i's.  How far do you plan to have them from the front wall?  Are you setting up against the long wall or the short wall?  I think your room is a little small for the 3.7i's.

Wow, I'm surprised to hear that you feel my room may be too small. Here are many comments from when I was originally considering the 3.7i's a year ago with everyone agreeing I had enough space. Also, the "ideal" setup that I located at the dealer which I described would certainly fit.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134781.msg1431711#msg1431711

As far as your other questions, they would go against the long wall 3-5 feet out from the wall. And I realize Maggies likely aren't the "best" speaker for rock, but just really wanted people's thoughts on whether they could handle it reasonably well. In the listening habits that I noted, while important, rock only makes up 30% of my listening.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I own the 1.6's and MMG's.  I have friends that have the 1.7 and 3.7's and have heard them many times.  I think that your room is too small for them.  My room is 17x17 and I bought the 1.6's over the 3.6's because I thought the room was too small although it would probably have been ok.  The 1.7i's would be a better fit for your room.   I use a Pass X250 amp with my 1.6's and love it but will eventually upgrade to a used 250.5 as I prefer a warmer sound.  I use a BAT Vk-51se tube preamp.  Pass amps and Maggies are a great match.   I use to use a Parasound A21 with them and the Pass has much better dynamics.   You need a great amp for Maggies to shine.  A good preamp is a must.  I have never heard bass distortion on Maggies with a good amp and I dare anyone to hear distortion in my system.  If you do go with Maggies also consider McIntosh amps. I have heard that combo at the local Maggie dealer here and they pair well. I suspect Conrad Johnson gear would also pair well and give you the sound you are looking for.

If you like warmer speakers with a great mid range try and listen to the PSB Imagine T2 and T3's.  Great speaker's along the lines of the previous PSB Synchrony line.  Read the reviews. 

Another way to go would be with a Vinnie Rossi Lio and a pair of Harbeth's.  2 years ago at Axpona, this was one of the top 3 or 4 sounding rooms.  Warm, lush, musical and detailed sound.  I am considering selling my gear and going this route.

Good Luck in what ever you decide.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

Maggies get a bad rap for rock music.  Add a sub and most of the issue's disappear.  ( I use dual subs) The issues with Maggies and rock  are the very low bass and pressurization of the room and the fact that most rock is recorded like garbage.  With Maggies, garbage in and garbage out.  Same goes for the gear that you pair with them.  They will let you know when something sounds bad or bright.  Nothing gets by them.

[SteveFord]

Once the speakers are purchased what is your budget for the rest of the stuff?

[roscoeiii]

I think that you are looking at a choice between details and dynamics/pressurization. As mentioned above subs can help with the pressurization sensation. IIRC, sealed subs are often a good match with Maggies because they are faster. Lots of Maggie owners out there, so shouldn't be too hard to find good pairing recs.

Did you listen to speakers other than the Maggies at the dealer? How set are you on them vs another design?

I'll second the rec to listen to PSB T3s if you are able. along with as much as possible in that price range. We all respond to different characteristics in speakers. For me, soundstaging isn't something I care much about. But it is near the top of the list for others.

My first thought on your room was also that it might be too small for 3.7i speakers. But I don't have the experience with Maggies that others on this thread do.

Happy hunting.

[limniscate]

Maggies get a bad rap for rock music.  Add a sub and most of the issue's disappear.  ( I use dual subs) The issues with Maggies and rock  are the very low bass and pressurization of the room and the fact that most rock is recorded like garbage.  With Maggies, garbage in and garbage out.  Same goes for the gear that you pair with them.  They will let you know when something sounds bad or bright.  Nothing gets by them.

I agree with this.  Dual subs add a lot but you lose the coherence.  I'm using dual Rythmik F12G.  It just depends what you're listening to.  I also agree that you need a very high-power amp to get the best out of the Maggies.  I was astonished when I went from Odyssey Kismet in Stratos monos to the Sanders Magtech.  Granted, I had an early version of the Kismet, and they may not have been biased properly.

[limniscate]

Wow, I'm surprised to hear that you feel my room may be too small. Here are many comments from when I was originally considering the 3.7i's a year ago with everyone agreeing I had enough space. Also, the "ideal" setup that I located at the dealer which I described would certainly fit.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134781.msg1431711#msg1431711

As far as your other questions, they would go against the long wall 3-5 feet out from the wall. And I realize Maggies likely aren't the "best" speaker for rock, but just really wanted people's thoughts on whether they could handle it reasonably well. In the listening habits that I noted, while important, rock only makes up 30% of my listening.

3 ft. is not enough imho.  You need to get them at least 5 ft. out and ideally even more.  I firmly believe that most people who own Maggies should not own them because they're hamstringing them with their room.  There are much better speakers for smaller rooms and/or if you can't get the speaker far from the front wall.  For example, the Vandersteen Treos.  My brother has the Treos in a terrible room compared to mine with no room treatments and inferior electronics, yet his system sounds ridiculously good compared to my setup. 

As a data point, I've had the Maggies in a ~12'x~30'x9' apartment setup against the long wall with the speakers only 4' from the front wall, and my current setup is in a 15'x35'x10' row house setup against the short wall.  But the length is a little deceiving  because there's a kitchen counter at about 25' that goes up about a third of the 10' height.  The speakers are 9' and 7' off the uneven front wall.  This is how I realized how hamstrung the speakers were at my previous place, but I bought the Maggies knowing that I was moving to a bigger place where I could get them further off the front wall.

[Wind Chaser]

3 ft. is not enough imho.  You need to get them at least 5 ft. out and ideally even more.  I firmly believe that most people who own Maggies should not own them because they're hamstringing them with their room.

Bingo - bang on! 

[I.Greyhound Fan]

3' out is room enough.  Will they sound better at 5', yes, but they don't sound bad 3' from the back wall.  I keep mine 3' from the back wall.  But I am using 1.6's not the 3.7's. Moving them out further in my 17x17 room gives some improvement in sound but it is not a dramatic improvement.  They still sound great.  Of course, each room is different and user experience may vary.

[maplegrovemusic]

Depends how immersed in the music you want to get . Further out improves the imaging and soundstage . If thats not your bag it really is fine having them closer to the wall .

[limniscate]

3' out is room enough.  Will they sound better at 5', yes, but they don't sound bad 3' from the back wall.  I keep mine 3' from the back wall.  But I am using 1.6's not the 3.7's. Moving them out further in my 17x17 room gives some improvement in sound but it is not a dramatic improvement.  They still sound great.  Of course, each room is different and user experience may vary.

I guess it depends what your reference point or standard is.  I was surprised that I could tell the difference between 5' and 6'.  Sure, they sound ok at 3' from the wall by why not just buy a speaker that sounds its best closer to a front wall and is not hamstrung by the room?

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I guess it depends what your reference point or standard is.  I was surprised that I could tell the difference between 5' and 6'.  Sure, they sound ok at 3' from the wall by why not just buy a speaker that sounds its best closer to a front wall and is not hamstrung by the room?

It's all relative.  It depends upon what other speakers you are comparing them to.  At 3' from the wall, they may sound better than most speakers in that price range or you may prefer the unique sound of Magnepans. Certainly room treatments behind the speakers can help.

[maplegrovemusic]

If your a planar lover you will prefer them at 3' over boxed at 3' . Just need to decide what you like . Bass response is greater the closer you get to the back wall with maggies  . Have owned 1.6 , 1.7 mmg and never properly drove them until i hooked up a bryston 14bsst . Night and day difference . Crazy spending that kind of money to drive a 1.7 or 1.6 but it was awesome .

[Wind Chaser]

3' out is room enough.  Will they sound better at 5', yes, but they don't sound bad 3' from the back wall.  I keep mine 3' from the back wall.  But I am using 1.6's not the 3.7's. Moving them out further in my 17x17 room gives some improvement in sound but it is not a dramatic improvement.  They still sound great.  Of course, each room is different and user experience may vary.

3' out is enough for background music, but it ain't nearly enough if you have any interest in exploiting what they are truly caple of. Over the years I've had Maggie's and numerous other dipoles in a number of different rooms, and without exception, all the dipoles I've tried don't do well 3' out.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

3' out is enough for background music, but it ain't nearly enough if you have any interest in exploiting what they are truly caple of. Over the years I've had Maggie's and numerous other dipoles in a number of different rooms, and without exception, all the dipoles I've tried don't do well 3' out.

You can't comment on my system till you hear it.  Hopefully a couple of my AC member friends who have Maggies and heard my system will chime in.

[limniscate]

There is more bass when Maggies are closer to the wall but the image is smeared.

[drphoto]

Having owned Maggies in the past, a pair of lowly 2c's from the early eighties, I can say they are just damn fun speakers. I have Merlins now and while they spec out far better, I just don't love em. Maggie's always made me smile. However, Maggies while getting the sound of bass correct, do not have that gut punch that many rock fans want. Whether you can achieve this with a sub is beyond my knowledge. Theoretically yes, but will require right sub and some tweaking. Unless you are made of money, most things in audio are a compromise & for me the Magenepans just get 95% of it right. I will own another set someday. You will need good high current power amp(s) too.

And yes, room treatment is important. I think Maggies are a little more forgiving actually than traditional speaker in this regard, but once you start throwing in subs, then you have to start thinking about bass traps.

Don't want to derail thread on sound treatment, but I know it sounds crazy to 'trap' low frequencies when you want bass, but to get tight punch rock bass, you can't overload the room with a bunch of low frequency crap. And it's really easy to overload a small room. In other words, you want that initial impact wave from the speaker....and then you want it to go away. If not, you end up with a muddy mess.

BTW; There are, of course many fine conventional speakers out there. Odyssey's Lorelli is fantastic and somewhat less expensive than the new Maggie 3.7i. I love ProAc and Harbeth, but they are really pricey.

Best wishes.