[zoom25]

Just wanted to post few impressions of some testing that I've been doing. I am using Bryston BDP-1 to feed my DAC (Dangerous Source w/ Teradak 12V13A Linear Power Supply), which is also currently powering my headphones, Sennheiser HD 800. (Bryston BHA-1 is on the way). I figured I would order some interconnect cables for the BHA-1. Then I thought of ordering some AES cables as well to save money on shipping.

Currently I've been using a 75 ohm coaxial to AES cable between the BDP-1 and Dangerous Source. The cable is Mogami 2964 with Neutrik gold connectors. I have the same cable with same connectors in 3 different lengths: 2 feet, 6 feet, and 10 feet.

Until now, I have been stacking the components and using the 2 feet cable. Although now I came across articles talking about reflections and minimum 1.5 meters for digital cables. So before ordering an AES cable, I decided to experiment with the cables I already had and see if anything would even remotely translate in my system by changing the cable length. Volume was kept constant and the equipment was kept stacked in the exact same manner regardless of the length of the cable used as a control for possible sound degradation due to close proximity.

Results:

- I went back and forth between the 2 feet and 10 feet for 2 hours at varying temporal intervals. Sometimes comparing the same part of the track (20 seconds) a few dozen times. There's definitely a learning curve and time needed to put my finger on exactly describing the differences in sound I was hearing.
- I actually preferred the sound of the 2 feet during the first 20 minutes or so. Although after I decided to leave the 10 feet on for some time and then come back to the 2 feet. Take a break. Then repeat back and forth testing.
- The 10 feet sounds more relaxing and there is no ghosting. At first I thought the 2 feet was being strident and somewhat sibilant. Although after getting used to the 10 feet, the 2 feet had this weird blurring of sound
- The 10 feet is definitely the more pleasing one to listen to. Soundstage is also more fuller, while retaining the same size. Its hard to explain it fully.
- Also, the 2 feet was putting extra impact on vocals and air, which I initially liked (Perhaps because I was used to it for months). However, over the next few hours I got used to the 10 feet cable and it was very clear and less fatiguing. No ghosting whatsoever.

- Finally, I got around to trying the 6 feet cable which is 2.0 metres, and longer than the 1.5 metres minimum recommendation. Surprisingly, I did not like it. It sounded a bit different than the 2 feet cable, but it was still not close to what I was/am hearing with the 10 feet cable. Really confused with where the cutoff minimum length is. Just genuine observations. Also, I was worried about jitter with the longer cable but there is absolutely nothing to worry about. Nothing is sloppy.

I think I'm going to order a 20 feet 3173 Mogami AES cable and try to move the BDP-1 on a separate desk without any electronic components nearby. Hopefully, the 20 feet should not be a problem. This cable is designed to do 1000 feet.

Also, upon further reading, it seems the BNC connector is actually the best option. Unfortunately, my Dangerous Source cannot accept a BNC connector. If I consider a BDA-2/3 later on to finish my Bryston stack, I will definitely try RCA coaxial vs. AES vs. BNC head to head.

Anyways, would love to hear others experience. Definitely try this out if you have cables lying around.

For analog interconnects between DAC and BHA-1, I take it everyone prefers to keep it as short as possible?

[Grit]

I believe the purpose of shorter cables is to make them less susceptible to interference. In my experience  (just my home and system), cable quality is more important than 1m vs 2m. And as with most things, there's diminishing returns as costs go up. I suspect your results will be dependent on how much interference is in your environment.

I've read before what you've posted about digital cables. It had something to do with multiples of 1.5m. So 1.5m, 3m, 4.5m, etc were the sweet spots. However,  the benefit of that might also be accomplished through the components and/or better quality cables with proper connectors. I have no idea myself, just theorizing.

The BNC connection is easier to explain. That connector is designed for 75 ohm connections where the RCA connector was not.

[srb]

I think I'm going to order a 20 feet 3173 Mogami AES cable and try to move the BDP-1 on a separate desk without any electronic components nearby. Hopefully, the 20 feet should not be a problem. This cable is designed to do 1000 feet.

There was a small boutique manufacturer of DACs that performed signal reflection analysis with an oscilloscope/digital analyzer, and although given the proper test equipment and testing methodology one could arrive at a perfect length of digital interconnect for each particular component combo, the average was found to be in the 16 - 17 foot range, so you're probably right on track.

Steve

[zoom25]

I believe the purpose of shorter cables is to make them less susceptible to interference. In my experience  (just my home and system), cable quality is more important than 1m vs 2m. And as with most things, there's diminishing returns as costs go up. I suspect your results will be dependent on how much interference is in your environment.

I've read before what you've posted about digital cables. It had something to do with multiples of 1.5m. So 1.5m, 3m, 4.5m, etc were the sweet spots. However,  the benefit of that might also be accomplished through the components and/or better quality cables with proper connectors. I have no idea myself, just theorizing.

The BNC connection is easier to explain. That connector is designed for 75 ohm connections where the RCA connector was not.

Yeah that used to be my exact thinking. Although, I haven't run into any interference problems. I use the top tier Mogami cable for each respective application. 2549 for analog and 3173 for digital. They are well shielded and sound great. I'm thinking of trying out the AES 3173 for analog runs as well. I've heard some say they might work better than even the top analog 2549.

[zoom25]

There was a small boutique manufacturer of DACs that performed signal reflection analysis with an oscilloscope/digital analyzer, and although given the proper test equipment and testing methodology one could arrive at a perfect length of digital interconnect for each particular component combo, the average was found to be in the 16 - 17 foot range, so you're probably right on track.

Steve

Yeah I came across those studies as well. Until now I never really payed attention to it. Just tried to keep it as short as possible. After listening throughout the last day, I am very confident in what I am hearing and the differences. Really liking the longer cable. The BDP-1 is definitely beating my Mac setup (Audirvana and Amarra). I think maybe one of those articles said to even treat analog interconnects as similar to the digital stuff with reflections...I must admit I did get a bit lost how that held up with analog signals (i.e. keep it as short as possible vs. give it some breathing room)

[werd]

Don't forget the BDA 2 and 3, the xlr and rca inputs are transformer coupled too.

[zoom25]

Don't forget the BDA 2 and 3, the xlr and rca inputs are transformer coupled too.

Sorry, I'm not understanding the implication of this (brain dead atm). Care to elaborate? Thanks.

[werd]

Sorry, I'm not understanding the implication of this (brain dead atm). Care to elaborate? Thanks.

The transformer gives you a 75/110 ohm input. It will see what ever the output is of the BDP and mirror it. Its rated with a transformer coupled input maybe James can clarify what it does. Any length of cable will show 75 ohms and length no longer becomes an issue i am assuming.

[audioengr]

The optimum cable length will depend on the risetime of the signal.  The faster the risetime, the shorter you can make the cable.  Very short cables such as 0.5m are to be avoided because the reflection from the destination makes its way back to the source just as the destination is sampling the transitioning edge.  This creates jitter.  Therefore, make it as short as possible, given your risetime, but long enough to avoid the first reflection (there are attenuated second and third reflections).

Here is a white-paper I wrote with some general guidelines.  This has been double-blind tested by a Canadian audio magazine.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/jitter.htm

Steve N.

[zoom25]

The optimum cable length will depend on the risetime of the signal.  The faster the risetime, the shorter you can make the cable.  Very short cables such as 0.5m are to be avoided because the reflection from the destination makes its way back to the source just as the destination is sampling the transitioning edge.  This creates jitter.  Therefore, make it as short as possible, given your risetime, but long enough to avoid the first reflection (there are attenuated second and third reflections).

Here is a white-paper I wrote with some general guidelines.  This has been double-blind tested by a Canadian audio magazine.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/jitter.htm

Steve N.

Yeah I came across this article as well. Helps to explain the things I was noticing.

I have no equipment to test this and make the optimum cable length. I'm just going by ear here. The current 10 feet on my specific system has been working quite nicely.

Do you have any comments on audio interconnect length (from DAC to (pre)-amplifier?

[zoom25]

Got the Mogami 3173 for AES (XLR to XLR). It's definitely better sounding than the other Mogami I was using above (coaxial to XLR). Not sure if its better because I am using AES output on the BDP-1, or if its the cable. Maybe both. I also started using 3173 for analog applications and it beats my Mogami 2549 which is considered their best analog mic line cable. The 3173 is definitely top stuff for both analog and digital. The top end of the music and vocals just opens up. Its genuinely worth an audition. It improved both of my systems.

[jea48]

There was a small boutique manufacturer of DACs that performed signal reflection analysis with an oscilloscope/digital analyzer, and although given the proper test equipment and testing methodology one could arrive at a perfect length of digital interconnect for each particular component combo, the average was found to be in the 16 - 17 foot range, so you're probably right on track.

Steve

 I would appreciate it greatly if you could find the website Link for the tests.

Thanks in advance,
Jim

[jea48]

Just wanted to post few impressions of some testing that I've been doing. I am using Bryston BDP-1 to feed my DAC (Dangerous Source w/ Teradak 12V13A Linear Power Supply), which is also currently powering my headphones, Sennheiser HD 800. (Bryston BHA-1 is on the way). I figured I would order some interconnect cables for the BHA-1. Then I thought of ordering some AES cables as well to save money on shipping.

Currently I've been using a 75 ohm coaxial to AES cable between the BDP-1 and Dangerous Source. The cable is Mogami 2964 with Neutrik gold connectors. I have the same cable with same connectors in 3 different lengths: 2 feet, 6 feet, and 10 feet.

Until now, I have been stacking the components and using the 2 feet cable. Although now I came across articles talking about reflections and minimum 1.5 meters for digital cables. So before ordering an AES cable, I decided to experiment with the cables I already had and see if anything would even remotely translate in my system by changing the cable length. Volume was kept constant and the equipment was kept stacked in the exact same manner regardless of the length of the cable used as a control for possible sound degradation due to close proximity.

Results:

- I went back and forth between the 2 feet and 10 feet for 2 hours at varying temporal intervals. Sometimes comparing the same part of the track (20 seconds) a few dozen times. There's definitely a learning curve and time needed to put my finger on exactly describing the differences in sound I was hearing.
- I actually preferred the sound of the 2 feet during the first 20 minutes or so. Although after I decided to leave the 10 feet on for some time and then come back to the 2 feet. Take a break. Then repeat back and forth testing.
- The 10 feet sounds more relaxing and there is no ghosting. At first I thought the 2 feet was being strident and somewhat sibilant. Although after getting used to the 10 feet, the 2 feet had this weird blurring of sound
- The 10 feet is definitely the more pleasing one to listen to. Soundstage is also more fuller, while retaining the same size. Its hard to explain it fully.
- Also, the 2 feet was putting extra impact on vocals and air, which I initially liked (Perhaps because I was used to it for months). However, over the next few hours I got used to the 10 feet cable and it was very clear and less fatiguing. No ghosting whatsoever.

- Finally, I got around to trying the 6 feet cable which is 2.0 metres, and longer than the 1.5 metres minimum recommendation. Surprisingly, I did not like it. It sounded a bit different than the 2 feet cable, but it was still not close to what I was/am hearing with the 10 feet cable. Really confused with where the cutoff minimum length is. Just genuine observations. Also, I was worried about jitter with the longer cable but there is absolutely nothing to worry about. Nothing is sloppy.

I think I'm going to order a 20 feet 3173 Mogami AES cable and try to move the BDP-1 on a separate desk without any electronic components nearby. Hopefully, the 20 feet should not be a problem. This cable is designed to do 1000 feet.

Also, upon further reading, it seems the BNC connector is actually the best option. Unfortunately, my Dangerous Source cannot accept a BNC connector. If I consider a BDA-2/3 later on to finish my Bryston stack, I will definitely try RCA coaxial vs. AES vs. BNC head to head.

Anyways, would love to hear others experience. Definitely try this out if you have cables lying around.

For analog interconnects between DAC and BHA-1, I take it everyone prefers to keep it as short as possible?

Thanks for sharing.

There is one more listening test I would like you to try if you would.
First listen to something you are really familiar with. Something with a strong female voice. Also something with a solo piano segment in a song.

The test:

Flip the 10' digital coax cable end for end, (changing the direction), and then listen to the same music again. (Even if the cable has directional arrows/markings and you have it installed that way before the test.)


Please post back your results.

Jim

[zoom25]

Thanks for sharing.

There is one more listening test I would like you to try if you would.
First listen to something you are really familiar with. Something with a strong female voice. Also something with a solo piano segment in a song.

The test:

Flip the 10' digital coax cable end for end, (changing the direction), and then listen to the same music again. (Even if the cable has directional arrows/markings and you have it installed that way before the test.)


Please post back your results.

Jim

Hello Jim,

Unfortunately this will not be possible as it was a coaxial cable that was terminated to XLR. So the wire was 75 ohms to support BDP-1's coaxial output via RCA plug. The termination was XLR to plug into my Dangerous Source's AES input. So I cannot reverse the direction because the terminations are different. Unless I misunderstood you...

However, I have been paying attention to female voices and the top end of piano for testing in my experiments. Probably for different reason than you had in your mind?

[zoom25]

Another detail to add. I have the 3173 AES cable in two lengths: 10 feet and 18 feet. Currently using the single 18 feet as digital. Took the pair of two 10 feet cables for active monitor duty.

Maybe I should grab the 10 feet AES to compare with the 10 feet of coaxial cable mentioned above? Different wire and terminations, but at least the length will be the same?

Either way, I highly recommend trying the 3173. It just gives another dimension to the music. Maybe its the AES port.

[srb]

I would appreciate it greatly if you could find the website Link for the tests.

I think it was the U-byte cable from Analog Research Technology.
http://ar-t.co/ubyte.html

But I seem to remember more detail about the length that I'm not seeing on that page.  Maybe it was edited or I am remembering a discussion from another site or forum.  To make it a little more confusing the page says the length is "around 16' ", but at the end of the page under Specifications it states "approximately 8 feet" (???)

Pat, the proprietor, has not been active on AudioCircle for about a year and a half.

Here is some discussion from AudioCircle 8 years ago:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=49432.msg443440#msg443440

Steve
 

[jea48]

Hello Jim,

Unfortunately this will not be possible as it was a coaxial cable that was terminated to XLR. So the wire was 75 ohms to support BDP-1's coaxial output via RCA plug. The termination was XLR to plug into my Dangerous Source's AES input. So I cannot reverse the direction because the terminations are different. Unless I misunderstood you...

However, I have been paying attention to female voices and the top end of piano for testing in my experiments. Probably for different reason than you had in your mind?

zoom25 said:
Currently I've been using a 75 ohm coaxial to AES cable between the BDP-1 and Dangerous Source. The cable is Mogami 2964 with Neutrik gold connectors. I have the same cable with same connectors in 3 different lengths: 2 feet, 6 feet, and 10 feet.

LOL, and I read what you had posted too.  Brain fart on my part I guess. In my head all I seen was RCA ends.

zoom25 Said:
  However, I have been paying attention to female voices and the top end of piano for testing in my experiments. Probably for different reason than you had in your mind?

zoom25 Said:
Probably for different reason than you had in your mind?

Nope same reasons.
I didn't want to plant any impressions in your ears/mind the differences you might hear when flipping the direction of the cable. From my personal experience Digital coax cables with RCA ends are directional regardless what the manufacture of the cable might say.

I have found when listening for differences in, cables be it digital or analog, power cords, CD transports, DACs, what ever, music with female vocals and solo piano bring out the differences the most. 

[jea48]

I think it was the U-byte cable from Analog Research Technology.
http://ar-t.co/ubyte.html

But I seem to remember more detail about the length that I'm not seeing on that page.  Maybe it was edited or I am remembering a discussion from another site or forum.  To make it a little more confusing the page says the length is "around 16' ", but at the end of the page under Specifications it states "approximately 8 feet" (???)

Pat, the proprietor, has not been active on AudioCircle for about a year and a half.

Here is some discussion from AudioCircle 8 years ago:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=49432.msg443440#msg443440

Steve

Steve,
 Thanks for the response



http://ar-t.co/ubyte.html

Most competitors probably realise that there is more to it than "bits is just bits". One would hope so. However, they most likely view the solution as they would any other audio solution. But when it comes to RF interfaces, and ones as poorly conceived as SPDIF, it is essential that cable (and equipment ) designers have a thorough knowledge of the subject. Alas, few do. Members of our design team have been working with these matters since the 60s. Let us say that we have more than enough knowledge and experience to design a cable that will perform as well as any cable can in any given situation.

 OK, now the bad news:

 The cable is around 16' long, and is only available with BNC connectors.

 Why so long, you ask.

The old version cable is 16 feet long.

Further update: February, 2013. They are making a comeback! Found a different type of BNC. No, we did not listen to it. No, we have no intention of listening to it. And it is a moot point, since it took all this time to find it. We are using it.

 (It can't sound that awful, since we are already using a different style, for the cheap "freebie" cable we included, with all of our other fine/crappy/whatever products. And no one has sent any of them back. So, there!)

"Maybe because they are free. And you still go out of your way to annoy us, don't you? And include all of your inside, private jokes, as part of the sales pitch."

 Si.

 Hey, look at the bright side: it is free entertainment. Besides, what do you expect, for this money, Cousin Brucie?


 Specifications:

 Impedance: 75 ohms, +/- 1.5 ohms.

 Length: Approximately 8 feet.

 The new version is 8 feet long.

srb Said:
Pat, the proprietor, has not been active on AudioCircle for about a year and a half.

I wonder if his email address is still good for his company? I'll check it out.

I have a few questions for him regarding spdif coax cable lengths.

Jim

[zoom25]

My Dangerous Source has AES and USB input. However, my Emotiva Stealth DC-1 in addition also has BNC input. Maybe I should try to compare AES and BNC in DC-1 through BDP-1?

[zoom25]

Nope same reasons.
I didn't want to plant any impressions in your ears/mind the differences you might hear when flipping the direction of the cable. From my personal experience Digital coax cables with RCA ends are directional regardless what the manufacture of the cable might say.

Yeah I was recently checking out Vovox's page and they acknowledge the topics covered in this thread, while fully admitting they are not sure of the WHY, but acknowledging the differences in sound. I have been recommended Vovox a few times by different studio manufacturers. One of the guys at Focal also recommended Vovox for power and IC. Both are unshielded, but supposedly sound the best. Would love to compare to my 3173 and 2549.