Classical Music Interface

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artur9

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Re: Classical Music Interface
« Reply #20 on: 15 Jan 2018, 11:42 pm »
Apostrophes seem OK unless you have Sonos where the track will not play if one of those is in the track name...Weird!!

If you have your Sonos accessing files over a network it uses the SMB (samba) protocol.  There are all kinds of characters that are illegal in the SMB protocol.  If your filenames have one of them the file is invisible to the Sonos.  It's very annoying because the legal characters is a small subset of what would be useful.  And it's not easy to find what is illegal.

artur9

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Re: Classical Music Interface
« Reply #21 on: 15 Jan 2018, 11:57 pm »
So, does an audiophile have any control over what goes into a "tag?"

Yes but it could be challenging to determine what the "correct" value for a tag is.

Let's say you buy a digital file from one of the online vendors.  It will already be tagged with what that seller thinks are good values.  But you may not like what they did (e.g. my personal gripe about conductors being in the composer field or the composer being in the artist field).

Or if you rip a CD.  Usually, the ripper program consults any of a number of online databases to determine what the tag values should be.  Again, you may not like what those databases contain.  Worse yet, if you're ripping a multi-disc set each disc may have completely different tag values. 

I think the online databases want to torture us audiophiles. ;-)

For many of us, we know how we want to navigate through our collections of digital files.  Some of us are content to navigate via a folder systems with just the names of the discs we ripped.  Some of our want to navigate by composition  (the name of the work regardless of individual tracks).  Some of us want to navigate by performer (like Perlman, or Ma).

FWIW, I try to use allmusic as my definitive guide.  But, sadly, it doesn't include everything I own.  Then I have to cobble together the info from several other, possibly conflicting, sources.

Anyway, once the proper values for the tags are determined, a tag editor is necessary to fix what one wants changed.  There's a sampling of the variety here: https://www.online-tech-tips.com/free-software-downloads/mp3-metadata/

I use Yate.

Ilkatze

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Re: Classical Music Interface
« Reply #22 on: 16 Jan 2018, 12:20 am »
Yes but it could be challenging to determine what the "correct" value for a tag is.

Let's say you buy a digital file from one of the online vendors.  It will already be tagged with what that seller thinks are good values.  But you may not like what they did (e.g. my personal gripe about conductors being in the composer field or the composer being in the artist field).

I have the same gripe, artur9.  Incidentally, I navigate my music by composer's last name.  As for conflicting information among databases, I've used music libaries (academic) or music publishers to get more information when I've wanted to add it.

It's good to see references in this thread to additional databases that can be helpful with classical music.

MoPac

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Re: Classical Music Interface
« Reply #23 on: 16 Jan 2018, 04:11 am »
artur9:
 I believe Squeezebox also uses Samba and it has no problems with the apostrophe character.  In fact I have found no other system that struggles with the apostrophe.  I don't think the apostrophe is an illegal character.

 Sonos told me to change all my apostrophes to the character to the left of the 1 on a keyboard`.  Yeah! I'm gonna' check over 18,000 tracks to look for apostrophes!

 Navigating to the Artists (composers last name) or the Album ( composition ) is a breeze for me because the tag structure is the same for everything in the library.  Seems to me most control point software has a search category for Artists, Albums, Songs, Genre, Maybe Year, Maybe Composer.  Look at Soundirok for the BDP which only has Genre, Artists and Albums.  Frankly I would rather use playlists for most of my listening. 
     Examples:
  Cello Concertos
  Duos
  Orchestral Pieces
  Other Concertos
  Piano Concertos
  Quartets
  Symphonies 18th Century
  Symphonies 19th Century
  Symphonies 20th Century
  Symphonies 21st Century
  Violin Concertos
    etc.  These are only a few of many.

Syncytial

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Re: Classical Music Interface
« Reply #24 on: 16 Jan 2018, 04:31 am »
Hmm... well, I have found AllMusic.com to be just excellent. Even obscure discs that I've ripped from my collection, that don't have an entry in Gracenote are fully outlined in AllMusic.

...

And, it *is* possible to retrieve the AllMusic information programmatically, as this is exactly what Roon uses for their own meta data.

...


(Note: I started composing my reply yesterday, but disappeared down the rabbit hole for a while, "researching" the current state of affairs, and while there has been improvement for mainstream releases, I think the classical metadata currently available from diverse sources of unknown provenance is still unfortunately less complete and less accurate than analytically inclined collectors want, and often frustratingly conflicting from one source to another.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks, I was hoping you'd reply with something thoughtful, constructive, and offering hope - and you have!  ;)

My post was (intentionally) somewhat provocative, and there are some rays of light, such as the Sonata db mentioned previously, and now you've brought another to our attention. I wonder who provides metadata for Qobuz?

It's been a while since I explored AllMusic's database, and your experience, and the fact that the db is available programatically, is very encouraging. I hope that the cost of access to the db is acceptable for Bryston to use it as a metadata provider, or possibly as an optional user-paid enhancement.

When I last spent some time with AllMusic, I encountered many absent or incomplete entries. I'll spend some time to check it out again. A quick peek at the site shows AllMusic is now using TiVo (Rovi) for metadata, the same company that provides metadata for Spotify, iTunes, and others, according to the FAQ. TiVo is large, and pervasive enough, that it may prove to be the winner in the metadata game.

If others are familiar with other high-quality metadata providers that Bryston could pair with, please speak up!

Shifting gears a bit...

I'm not likely to go with Roon at this point, though I understand the appeal of a well-designed and supported UI, which seems to be a large part of its benefit, along with well-curated data and very competent playback. I'll explore it again, as I haven't checked into it in a while, but I remain wary of committing to a closed ecosystem this early. The cost will slow down some potential users, but it may be what's required to gain access to the best quality database available and a well-supported and graceful UI. The need to run Roon Core separately will also be a bit of a disincentive for some. Perhaps, as I believe has been asked in passing, the BDP-3 is suitable to run Roon Core without impacting sonic performance, though as more "stuff" gets added to the BDP, the potential to degrade its audio performance needs to considered.

All this discussion of Roon brings another question to mind... Can (should?) Bryston attempt to make the world's best all-in-one platform for organizing and playing digital music, or should (must?) Bryston focus on its core competencies and provide playback hardware that provides the best possible audio reproduction of digital music, be that on shiny disc, local storage, USB-attached drives (flash/SSD/spinning), stored on a local NAS (consider the different protocols), streamed (again different, often proprietary services or protocols) etc.? The Bryston "endpoint" as the obvious partner for any one of various high-quality providers of "core" music services (music/media servers and software service providers)?

It may be that the goal of a single-box solution that not only handles playback impeccably, but manages large and diverse collections with grace and efficiency, meeting the needs and wishes of all the various enthusiast users is impractical and intrinsically inefficient. Perhaps Bryston needs to provide a competent, but not necessarily class-leading on-board system for managing a "reasonable" collection, and work as hard as possible, both in the engineering realm and the partnerships with providers of synergistic software and services (e.g. streaming providers, media-server vendors, and collection-management software) to enable the music enthusiast to assemble a combination of hardware and software services that is tested, robust, elegant, and tailored to the individual's needs.

Bryston was an early entrant into this category of playback hardware, bringing first-rate audio performance and stability (Bryston hallmarks) to the table. However, the world is much messier now, and users' desires and expectations have exploded beyond playback of files ripped from CDs or downloaded to local storage. People want media servers (not just repositories of music files) with NASs, SANs, cloud backup, streaming of multi-channel audio and video in extreme resolutions, etc. Think of all the various communication protocols that need to be supported, file types, and the impact of video (HDMI & HDCP - shudder!)

Bryston customers want to retain the cherished benefits of owning Bryston - impeccable performance, exceptional reliability, true and long lasting support, but Bryston may not have the resources, or the will, to reform the world. We are still in the wild-west phase of development of digital entertainment for the discerning enthusiast, and Bryston will presumably analyse the market and choose to design and market products that meet the needs of "reasonable" enthusiasts with goals consistent with Bryston's, and that will provide a sensible and sustainable return for the company. That constrains what is possible - Bryston is not Apple, and is not likely to define a new category of music appliance.


Thanks - keep the discussion going!

Syncytial.


Krutsch

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Re: Classical Music Interface
« Reply #25 on: 16 Jan 2018, 02:46 pm »
I was curious about Krutsch’s reference to AllMusic.com (Reply #10) and decided to have a look at the database.

Assuming I didn’t use the site incorrectly, I was unable to find information for seven of eight CDs.  I stopped searching after eight, as I wanted merely to see what would come up after a quick run.

I got information for my CD of composer Connie Beckley, but for composers Bob Ostertag, Louis Karchin, and Allen Anderson, information was not available for my particular discs.  There were 13 titles listed for Ostertag, and one title each for Karchin and Anderson.

...


Click on this link: https://www.allmusic.com/artist/louis-karchin-mn0001915674

Then, click on one of the Composition Highlights. Then, click on one of the Appears On links. Not saying that stuff isn't missing, but there are MANY albums containing work from this composer.

And, if you click on this link: https://www.allmusic.com/artist/louis-karchin-mn0001915674/corrections
you can submit corrections and even add to the Discography. I've never added a new CD, but I know it can be done - the Roon guys do this, all the time.

Check out this thread: https://community.roonlabs.com/c/support/metadata-issues

The Roon guys are working closely with AllMusic.com. The Roon user community submit their missing/incorrect meta data and the Roon team moves it through the AllMusic system.

Anyway, working together, there are things we can do to solve the classical meta data problems you've identified.

Ilkatze

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Re: Classical Music Interface
« Reply #26 on: 16 Jan 2018, 08:35 pm »
In reply to Krutsch:

Thank you for taking the time to look into the example of Karchin.  I saw the same link, and it is for a CD/album different from the one I have.  However, following your suggestion to click further, I found more work for Karchin, including a reference to the CD I have (I did not explore things sufficiently on my quick run).  Karchin's information came up on other databases during the ripping process, but with what Allmusic has, it certainly seems like the place to check, as well as for submitting new data.

I've also managed to find works for Drattell and Anderson on the Allmusic link.

Many thanks for your direction, the corrections link, and for the Roon Labs link.  I believe that the information in this thread can be of great use for Bryston, and most certainly for individual listeners.

Krutsch

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Re: Classical Music Interface
« Reply #27 on: 16 Jan 2018, 09:21 pm »

...

Shifting gears a bit...

I'm not likely to go with Roon at this point, though I understand the appeal of a well-designed and supported UI, which seems to be a large part of its benefit, along with well-curated data and very competent playback. I'll explore it again, as I haven't checked into it in a while, but I remain wary of committing to a closed ecosystem this early. The cost will slow down some potential users, but it may be what's required to gain access to the best quality database available and a well-supported and graceful UI. The need to run Roon Core separately will also be a bit of a disincentive for some. Perhaps, as I believe has been asked in passing, the BDP-3 is suitable to run Roon Core without impacting sonic performance, though as more "stuff" gets added to the BDP, the potential to degrade its audio performance needs to considered.

All this discussion of Roon brings another question to mind... Can (should?) Bryston attempt to make the world's best all-in-one platform for organizing and playing digital music, or should (must?) Bryston focus on its core competencies and provide playback hardware that provides the best possible audio reproduction of digital music, be that on shiny disc, local storage, USB-attached drives (flash/SSD/spinning), stored on a local NAS (consider the different protocols), streamed (again different, often proprietary services or protocols) etc.? The Bryston "endpoint" as the obvious partner for any one of various high-quality providers of "core" music services (music/media servers and software service providers)?

...

Thanks - keep the discussion going!

Syncytial.

My additional $0.02 on the above in bold:

I hope that Bryston doesn't go the route of making the BDP-3 a Roon Core device (i.e. server). Frankly, these functions are best left to external machines. As one example, I can buy a Mac Mini for $500.00 that can run Roon just fine and will be WAY easier for me to manage than an appliance (e.g. applying Roon software updates, loading/tagging tons of music, adding storage).

One idea I had, when I thought about this, was for Bryston to partner with a consumer NAS vendor. For example, both QNAP and Synology have "app stores" that auto load a Roon Core, among many other applications.

Bryston could provide a simple "Bryston App", which downloads/run on the NAS devices, which would streamline the setup and attachment of these NAS devices with BDPs. Maybe even pre-process audio meta data on the NAS device and upload it to the BDP, speeding up the process of adding/indexing new music for MPD playback. Would also address the limited meta data support for formats like AIFF and WAV, which are popular with some BDP owners.