What Happened to Hi-Fi

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BobRex

Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #160 on: 13 Jan 2017, 01:47 pm »
They were 1.99 in 1960 and under $5 through the 1960's. When I was in High School (1969~73) and travelling to the record store every Saturday they were about $8 to $13, depending if you shopped at a Record Store which offered a discount, or a Department Store, which didn't.

By the end of the decade, 1978~80, they were about $15 with a typical discount from the Label's MSRP of about $17. A Direct to Disk or Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab album sold for $25~40.

I don't know where you were buying your records, but you were taken.  I have many, many imports with price stickers under or around 10 bucks purchased between 1976 and 1980.  Domestics were still in the 5 - 7 buck range.  I started selling audio, and as an extension audiophile records, in 1978.  At that time Mo-Fi, Sheffield, Telarc, and the smaller labels all sold for $15.95.  The closest I saw to 40 bucks were the original UHQRs, box sets not included.

dB Cooper

Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #161 on: 13 Jan 2017, 02:02 pm »
Those prices were Canadian $, so maybe not as out-of-kilter as you might think.

Johnny2Bad

Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #162 on: 13 Jan 2017, 02:35 pm »
I don't know where you were buying your records, but you were taken.  I have many, many imports with price stickers under or around 10 bucks purchased between 1976 and 1980.  Domestics were still in the 5 - 7 buck range.  I started selling audio, and as an extension audiophile records, in 1978.  At that time Mo-Fi, Sheffield, Telarc, and the smaller labels all sold for $15.95.  The closest I saw to 40 bucks were the original UHQRs, box sets not included.

I take it you don't live in Canada. You do realize that just based on exchange rates alone there should be a 15% premium in Canada at that time. There was a 13% Federal Sales Tax (reduced to 11% around 1980) on everything sold in Canada at the time, applied at the wholesale level so that every step along the way to the retail customer, it was compounded (it was killed when Canada introduced the GST in the late 1980's, something few consumers realize).

Although the GST, introduced I believe in 1989 and currently at 5%, is unpopular amongst consumers, it replaced a tax that generated less revenue and raised retail prices considerably more; the hidden, wholesale FST alone resulted in retail prices roughly 25% higher, versus 5% higher with the GST.

Finally the cost of advertising and marketing were factored into wholesale prices; in a bizarre situation, it was common industry practice for Canadian distributors to pay an equal (per capita) share of US advertising, and then they had to pay the cost of domestic advertising and marketing alone.

Fewer warehousing facilities and longer distances (Canada is 1,000 km wider than New York to LA) mean higher transportation costs cross country, and typically the retailer pays for shipping.

Also at the time there were duties and tariffs on all audio (and all LP records) imported into Canada. Duties and Tariffs were reduced or eliminated during the 1980's and 1990's, so that today there is none on electronics or software imported into Canada from almost every nation on Earth, unless your CEO is Kim Jong-Un.

With all the above factors taken together, plus a few more not mentioned, compared to the US, prices for everything audio were roughly 60% higher (if it was imported from the UK, you might find prices were only 35% higher) at the time if you do not account for currency differences, while the vinyl industry was entirely domestic manufacture and set it's own prices. However it may be relevant that there was (and is now) no domestic PVC production in Canada, so there would be higher transport, import costs, that FST, and so on.

I made it clear in my post that I was talking $Canadian and referring to the Canadian market.

I suppose I could have flown down to Los Angeles every Saturday to buy my records. And like you I owned an Audio Store during that period, and got discounts from virtually every reseller in town not available to the general public, because I was buying about 5~10 albums a week (we didn't sell records). Even then, I was paying about $13 a copy. As for the Direct-To-Disk records, which we sold at the store, well, your retail prices are higher than my wholesale prices.

Regards.

undertow

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Folsom

Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #164 on: 13 Jan 2017, 08:06 pm »
IMHO - the trend that killed the audio market was subjectivism. The start was late 70's. Pure, 100% snake oil.

* Directional cables????
* People poo-pooed parametric equalizers and then bought "network" interconnects????
* Cryogenically dipped "whatever"????
* Zelkova tree stands (what the heck is a zelkova tree)????
* 100W class A amplifiers (really????) and single ended Triode with 300B (and to think Western Electric were so proud when they got rid of that awful garbage)???
* Weight rings for your CDs????
* Bybee quantum filters????
* How much does a boulder amp weigh??? And one could get probably 15 amps from Crown at the same price...
* "Objective" style fake ranking - e.g. putting a Arnie Nudell designed 2 meter high multi-unit line array with a small D'Appolito "monitor" in the same list (and giving the former 100pts while the latter only 78pts - Huh - how do you even build a room where you could compare the two)?????
* "Audio grade" capacitors, resistors, inductors and 110v outlets...


What a strange little world you live in... All of those things are reasons why there's still high end audio.

assafl

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Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #165 on: 14 Jan 2017, 10:20 pm »
What a strange little world you live in... All of those things are reasons why there's still high end audio.

LOL - Not that strange - Like most, I allow a bit of magical thinking in (for example - a clean, neat, symmetrical PCB layout - albeit inaudible - I apply magical thinking rationalization by saying it is easier to fix and looks nicer).

But the list is downright insulting and takes money from loudspeakers (which can always be better!).
 

sdolezalek

Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #166 on: 15 Jan 2017, 04:50 am »
Reality is that for most folks their only "reference" point for music is their ear buds, even though a great audio system might sound "different," they don't have a reference point that matters.  If your world was entirely black and white and someone showed you a color television, you might think it was interesting, but your black and white reference point would give you no basis to judge whether all those colors were real.  I literally think that is what people who have no good reference point hear when they hear a great audio system.

I wonder whether the percentage of people who appreciate high end audio approximates the percentage that regularly attend either a small jazz club or a classical quartet in a live performance?  I assume those are pretty small audiences.  Maybe a symphony hall is a bit bigger audience, but depending on where you sit acoustics could be a lot worse than in your living room.

Large rock bands and the like don't apply because I don't consider that high fidelity sound (although it may be a reference point for your subwoofer).   

As a result, they simply don't care.

JLM

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Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #167 on: 15 Jan 2017, 11:17 am »
Reality is that for most folks their only "reference" point for music is their ear buds, even though a great audio system might sound "different," they don't have a reference point that matters.  If your world was entirely black and white and someone showed you a color television, you might think it was interesting, but your black and white reference point would give you no basis to judge whether all those colors were real.  I literally think that is what people who have no good reference point hear when they hear a great audio system.

I wonder whether the percentage of people who appreciate high end audio approximates the percentage that regularly attend either a small jazz club or a classical quartet in a live performance?  I assume those are pretty small audiences.  Maybe a symphony hall is a bit bigger audience, but depending on where you sit acoustics could be a lot worse than in your living room.

Large rock bands and the like don't apply because I don't consider that high fidelity sound (although it may be a reference point for your subwoofer).   

As a result, they simply don't care.

+1

And I would add that convenience is a huge factor in modern life. 

charmerci

Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #168 on: 15 Jan 2017, 01:23 pm »

As a result, they simply don't care.

But I also agree with what has already been written. I, too have brought people to hear really good systems and frankly, some people just don't care to begin with. I have one friend who loves his own type of music - does DJ'ing sometimes on small community radio stations - buys cassettes to listen on his Toyota 4Runner system and couldn't care less about how accurate a system sounds. I've run into several other people who just don't care about great stereo systems.

macrojack

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Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #169 on: 15 Jan 2017, 01:43 pm »
Guys, isn't it high time we acknowledge that we are fetishists? We are snobs. We feel that there is an absolute minimum standard that must be applied to sound reproduction. Anything that performs below that arbitrary assignment is dismissed as mid-fi and most of us seem to feel pity for those who know no better than to live with such garbage. Pretty arrogant of us I'd say.
I find it strange that a site which vigilantly and assertively forbids discussion of religion, is itself a gathering place for a religious cult. Isn't that what we are? To a man (and occasional woman) we insist that we have found the one true approach, the unassailable best way to enjoy music. Sure there are pretenders out there like Bose or Beats who ride a big splashy marketing campaign to financial success but they are the equivalent of TV evangelists. We know that their offerings are misleading and that they have no concern for the well being of their marks. These companies are just in it for the money. They do not proceed with the reverence (reference?) that our holy vendors embrace and espouse. Poor misguided sheep. Will they ever see the light? If only they heard our gospel and understood what we have discovered, they too could be saved!
Perhaps we should set up missions in our community where those of adequate means can become acquainted with heaven as we know it. From what I understand there are system owners out there who can't even name the brand of speakers they use, much less the model number, iteration or mod status. The poor well-intentioned fools think that a tweak is a mis-spelling of Miley Cyrus's signature move. They should thank the Lord above that we are standing in the wings to piously and patiently rescue their poor souls. How do we get the word out?

CanadianMaestro

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Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #170 on: 15 Jan 2017, 02:57 pm »
1. I don't believe it's snobbery. I'm satisfied with listening to my Tivoli radio when I'm working in my den. Tuned to a classical station. I see HiFi as an acquired taste, certainly not "born with it", to coin a phrase.

2. True, lots of people don't give Hi Fi sound a shrug. That's their choice and I have no issue with it. Maybe the dealers do, but that's because their livelihoods depend on selling hi-end. I don't care for fine wines or vintage cars. Or designer suits. It's the consumer's choice. So what?

macrojack

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Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #171 on: 15 Jan 2017, 03:20 pm »
1. I don't believe it's snobbery. I'm satisfied with listening to my Tivoli radio when I'm working in my den. Tuned to a classical station. I see HiFi as an acquired taste, certainly not "born with it", to coin a phrase.

2. True, lots of people don't give Hi Fi sound a shrug. That's their choice and I have no issue with it. Maybe the dealers do, but that's because their livelihoods depend on selling hi-end. I don't care for fine wines or vintage cars. Or designer suits. It's the consumer's choice. So what?
My comment wasn't directed toward personal choices but rather the frequently espoused and collectively agreed upon belief that there is something superior to be found in hi-end audio. Of course there is for a tiny percentage of cognoscenti but why not just go on living with our personal choice rather than congratulating ourselves for having risen above the majority who can't be bothered with our brand of eccentricity?
I know people who have extraordinary good taste, produce wonderful silent art or grow all their own food. They could show us the way in any number of more practical pursuits than a sound system, and yet we join in feeling sorry for their state of un-enlightenment because they have never signed on to our fetishistic cult.
I'm just pointing out a philosophical misstep that I feel many of us have wrongly adopted. Harry Pearson, that arrogant sophist with a Hugh Hefner level derangement, is primarily responsible for cultivating the snobbery. Now he's gone. Let's clean up his mess together. Inclusion always works better than exclusion. BTW, what is our goal?

charmerci

Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #172 on: 15 Jan 2017, 04:32 pm »
To a man (and occasional woman) we insist that we have found the one true approach, the unassailable best way to enjoy music. Sure there are pretenders out there like Bose or Beats who ride a big splashy marketing campaign to financial success but they are the equivalent of TV evangelists. We know that their offerings are misleading and that they have no concern for the well being of their marks. These companies are just in it for the money. They do not proceed with the reverence (reference?) that our holy vendors embrace and espouse. Poor misguided sheep. Will they ever see the light? If only they heard our gospel and understood what we have discovered, they too could be saved!


One time at an old job at few years ago, some young guys were talking about how great Bose headphones were. I said, well, they're not that great. There are a lot of much better headphones out there...." I was interrupted with a forceful "Bose are great!"

It can be a tough sell in our heavily marketed world.

In the maintenance room, someone brought in an older tower Bosewave radio. They were blasting it loud. How they could listen to it for more than 15 seconds (my limit) was beyond me. Truly painful.

OzarkTom

Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #173 on: 15 Jan 2017, 05:10 pm »
Lots of good posts here, and when you add them all together, that is what happened to hifi. I am very thankful to have been a dealer back in the 80's.

Home Theater played a big part in the demise of B&M stores. HT was the new kid on the block. No way Audio stores could compete with the big box stores and many closed. Over the years, some stores had to close because they lost their lease. Why? Who knows?

No middle class today as Dave says? Even Disney says that.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2015/06/12/how-theme-parks-like-disney-world-left-the-middle-class-behind/?utm_term=.8ab775068453

Many here are 50 and older, we are not getting any younger, and the young are mainly stuck on their cell phones trying to win prizes on their favorite radio stations.

If I was in a big metro area today and wanted to sell audio, I would sell vintage gear with a DIY shop. Many here are doing more DIY, it feels good to build a system that sounds so great. The Internet is the reason for that.

The biggest difference today and the 80's, there is much more C&C gear today that sounds great. :thumb:

sdolezalek

Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #174 on: 15 Jan 2017, 06:12 pm »
Let me add one other factor that matters in today's Internet-centric world:

High-end audiophilia is a solitary and individual sport.  You can't be texting/talking/watching video AND be seriously listening.  Who really wants to have a bunch of friends over and sit there silently just listening, not talking, for hours. Who has the time to listen carefully for hours, without doing something else, like typing, reading, etc. that distracts from pure listening. 

Although the Internet is accused of driving people into isolation in front of their screen/headphone combinations, we have substituted multitasking for social interaction.  Quiet, attentive listening is neither social, nor multitasking. 

Only hi-def video plus great audio is capable of sufficiently holding our attention that you can get a group of people sitting silently for an hour or more.   I'm not sure there is any level of audio system that can pull that off...

Armaegis

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Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #175 on: 15 Jan 2017, 06:15 pm »
Let me add one other factor that matters in today's Internet-centric world:

High-end audiophilia is a solitary and individual sport

This is one aspect that I like about the headphone part of the hobby. It is much easier to organize meetups and have people bring in their headphone gear than it is for speaker folks.

Russell Dawkins

Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #176 on: 15 Jan 2017, 07:51 pm »
A great thread and a worthwhile discussion, this. It's very useful to step back and reassess perspective.

My broad view is that enthusiasm went from the novelty of good sound (decent bass in particular, thanks to Acoustic Research) in the home, such that people would sit around and listen in the early 70's, to the novelty of almost limitless choice and convenience, starting with the Sony Walkman, getting a big boost by the iPod and iTunes and leading to streaming of various kinds today.

The convenience factor was so strong it trumped ultimate sound quality, but it led to headphone listening with a resultant acceleration in development in that field. Now, for most, the most affordable access to good fidelity is the headphone. For most, also, realistic imaging and soundstaging don't count for much, so their lack in headphone listening is not an issue at all. Listening while working is another realm and for that something like the Tivoli is surprisingly adequate and desirable—lacking, as it does, LCD display and exotic processing and thus ensuring a longer ultimate lifespan.

For the immersive experience, then, it seems that for the majority there is headphone listening, home theater and let's not forget car audio.

For my part, when I approach recording and mixing my product, I still aim at the audio enthusiast, especially a musician, with a well set up two channel playback system since it seems that a recording that passes muster in that environment also sounds better on any other playback situation, from earbud to boombox, car audio, home theater and mono Tivoli. Good mono playback compatibility, by the way, is a challenge.

Pundamilia

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Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #177 on: 15 Jan 2017, 08:26 pm »
@macrojack: It is an interesting parallel that you draw between Hi-Fi advocates (audiophiliacs?) and religion. However, I only think you can carry the analogy so far, There is no single doctrine, although many acceptable, though not globally shared, perhaps heretical tenets in Hi-Fi (e.g. impact of cabling, tubes vs. solid-state, etc.). One significant distinction with Hi-Fi is the abundance of choice and the consequent heterogeneity of our systems. There is no single doctrine. I would wager that no two people on this forum have identical systems - Bryston-mania not withstanding.

This is indeed an interesting thread and a catalyst for bringing back memories of the various trends, companies and equipment that I have come across in this not inexpensive hobby, aspiring to achieve the ultimate in sound reproduction.

mcgsxr

Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #178 on: 15 Jan 2017, 09:10 pm »
Perhaps the 8 fold path is an appropriate parallel to the many ways that many find audio enlightenment.

I have enjoyed playing musical instruments, and replay via car audio, 2 channel, HT and headphones over the years.

I cannot say where hi end audio will go, but the surge in vinyl (I don't) could be a great thing for audio in general.  It certainly presupposes an actual audio setup if one is to own and use a turntable.  That alone should drive some % of new audiophiles.

Headphones too, Head Fi is alive and well these days with a lot of talk about outboard DAC's etc.

I keep finding ways to enjoy audio, so I think some of us will soldier on.

OzarkTom

Re: What Happened to Hi-Fi
« Reply #179 on: 16 Jan 2017, 03:36 am »
Report on 2017 CES show from TAS.

Quote
I have some good news and some bad news about CES 2017. The good news—and it is good news—is that the sound at this year’s rendition of Viva Las Vegas was considerably better than it’s been in years past. The bad news—and it is very bad—is that there were said to be some 40 fewer exhibitors at the 2017 show. Folks, that amounts to an entire floor of the Venetian hotel that in previous decades would’ve been crowded with visitors and filled with the sound of music. Even the halls with high-end-audio exhibits (29, 30, 34, and 35) were a bit gap-toothed. Let’s face it: When you find a room exhibiting Sealy Mattresses wedged among Wilsons, Rockports, Magicos, and Kharmas, you can’t help thinking that the jig is just about up. Perhaps the surest evidence of decline and fall was the AARP suite at the end of one of the high-end halls. CES might as well have hung a sign in the lobby saying, “We’re getting old and so are you.”

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/ces-2017-loudspeakers-20k-and-up/