[Herbie]

In addition to absorbing vibration, Herbie's Audio Lab's products prevent the transfer of vibration from one surface to another, therefore decouple and isolate.

Steve Herbelin
Herbie's Audio Lab

[Danny Richie]

In addition to absorbing vibration, Herbie's Audio Lab's products prevent the transfer of vibration from one surface to another, therefore decouple and isolate.

Steve Herbelin
Herbie's Audio Lab

Anytime you take the weight of an object and focus that weight down to a smaller area that is coupling.

You can say that the flat surfaces are separated and thus isolated from one another in that regard, but when you take an object that moves (like a speaker) and set it on an object that doesn't move (like a floor) the idea to to keep the speaker from moving. Spikes or anything used to stabilize it is coupling it to the floor.

[Herbie]

Danny, Herbie's Audio Lab products are not spikes, not rigid devices. I think you're not familiar with the products or how they work.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

[Danny Richie]

Danny, Herbie's Audio Lab products are not spikes, not rigid devices. I think you're not familiar with the products or how they work.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

This one looks like a spike.

[Herbie]

That's a spike with a beefy, 1/4"-thick mass of dBNeutralizer isolation/decoupling material. Not a rigid coupling device.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

[Danny Richie]

That's a spike with a beefy, 1/4"-thick mass of dBNeutralizer isolation/decoupling material. Not a rigid coupling device.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

If it is not rigid then the air pressure that the woofer produces will allow the speaker to sway and move like a swing. It will reduce low frequency output based on the the mass spring resistance and flatten imaging and sound stage development. Typically that is not a good thing.

[Captainhemo]

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.....

Coupling =  great for speakers, subs   (anchor them  so no force is wasted on moving the cabinet)

Decoupling =  great for racks, stands, etc  (floast, isolate  so nothing is transferred to the gear)

Pretty simple way of looking at it but that is how I see it

Steve, if you don't mind me asking,  why do you  use a "pointed"  device for decoupling, to me it just gives the wrong impression.... is it just to make sure  whateveri  it is that is being decoupled or isolated stays put?
-jay

[soundofrockets]

What parts did u use and where did u get them?  Approximate cost and time for the project ? 

[Guy 13]

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.....

Coupling =  great for speakers, subs   (anchor them  so no force is wasted on moving the cabinet)

Decoupling =  great for racks, stands, etc  (floast, isolate  so nothing is transferred to the gear)

Pretty simple way of looking at it but that is how I see it

-jay

Hi Jay.

My avatar says:
Audio should be simple!
...and that's how you put up your explanation.
SIMPLE and clear as crystal ! 

Guy 13

[Herbie]

If it is not rigid then the air pressure that the woofer produces will allow the speaker to sway and move like a swing.

The pictured Deluxe Superior Decoupling Spike holds the speaker cabinet more vibration-free and motionless, virtually always resulting in better bass definition and subtle, general improvements throughout the audio spectrum. The proof is in the pudding, not conjecture. The dBNeutralizer isolation material is formulated specifically for loudspeaker applications; it's a very firm, not squishy material that absorbs vibration by its loosely-crosslinked cellular structure collapsing (microscopically) within itself without resonating and has extremely fast contra-vibrational energies to hold the cabinet firmly in place.

Coupling =  great for speakers, subs   (anchor them  so no force is wasted on moving the cabinet)

Steve, if you don't mind me asking,  why do you  use a "pointed"  device for decoupling, to me it just gives the wrong impression.... 
-jay

Coupling speakers to the floor or stand is not an efficient way of reducing cabinet micro-vibrations, especially the very high, acute vibrations that cause a lot of the glare and harshness in music. Coupling to the floor with spikes is better than nothing, but loudspeaker-generated vibrations that transfer to the floor will reverberate and resonate right back up rigid spikes the way they came, along with other floorborne vibrations, adding glare and harshness, and other sonic anomalies, whether on a concrete or hardwood floor, or stand. Decoupling and isolation, using appropriate materials--not bloopy stuff like rubber or Sorbothane etc.--brings out more of the loudspeakers' best inherent potential and more-faithful rendering of the originally recorded event; that's why Herbie's loudspeaker isolation products have been so successful and widely acclaimed as a superior alternative to conventional spikes.

Herbie's Decoupling Spikes are useful with very tall and narrow tower speakers on very thick, spongy carpet. Without spikes piercing through the carpet and padding and anchoring to the floor, these speakers might have too much tendency to wobble on Herbie's Giant Fat Gliders or other non-spiked isolation product because of the spongy carpet. Some people use the height-adjustable Decoupling Spikes very effectively under subwoofer cabinets on bare floor with the points up, and other unique applications such as using one or two at the front of a center-channel speaker to achieve some tilt.

Going back to the original thread subject, I also like the pipes "as is."

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

[Danny Richie]

Okay I am going to throw my thoughts at you a bit, as a loudspeaker designer....

The pictured Deluxe Superior Decoupling Spike holds the speaker cabinet more vibration-free and motionless

Cabinet born vibrations are at their greatest in the center of un-braced panels. Side panels are typically the larger of these. So products like No Rez are very effective at controlling panel vibrations. The corners or edges of the speaker (much like the typical locations of floor spikes) are very solid and mostly resonance free. So there is not much there to control. And any type of a solid spike will couple (not de-couple) the speaker to the floor. 

The dBNeutralizer isolation material is formulated specifically for loudspeaker applications; it's a very firm, not squishy material

Okay, but earlier you said it was "Not a rigid coupling device". So it is a firm device, and again, that is coupling the speaker to the floor.

that absorbs vibration by its cellular structure collapsing (microscopically) within itself without resonating and has extremely fast contra-vibrational energies to hold the cabinet firmly in place.

I read this several times and I don't even know what to say about that. I don't want this to sound derogatory either. But maybe we should be making our loudspeaker cabinets out of this new miracle product. 

but loudspeaker-generated vibrations that transfer to the floor will reverberate and resonate right back up rigid spikes the way they came, along with other floorborne vibrations, adding glare and harshness, and other sonic anomalies,

Actually most floors are typically a slab of concrete and are the least resonant thing in the room. And pressure changes in the room, even at high SPL levels that shake everything in the room, have zero effect on the floor.

Even if the floor were a pier and beam type floor that did allow itself to be effected by the pressure changes of the room still does not work its way back up to the speaker and resonate it in any measurable way. Flexing of the floor (a wood floor) would have just as much effect generating a resonance to a lamp, desk, chair, or anything else against the floor. If the floor was really being a conductor of this energy then maybe we should be treating everything touching it.

Herbie's Decoupling Spikes are useful with very tall and narrow tower speakers on very thick, spongy carpet. Without spikes anchoring through the carpet and padding to the floor, these speakers might have too much tendency to wobble on Herbie's Giant Fat Gliders or other non-spiked isolation product.

And again, what you are describing is coupling and not de-coupling. You are making a solid anchor point from the speaker to the floor.  That's coupling.

[loving_it]

Is there a reason you didn't bore out the center so the pipes could screw in on the top and bottom ? I would think this would be way more stable than each shelf floating - or sandwich  the board with 2 of these
which might be even better

[Herbie]

Hi, Danny.

Okay, but earlier you said it was "Not a rigid coupling device". So it is a firm device, and again, that is coupling the speaker to the floor.

But maybe we should be making our loudspeaker cabinets out of this new miracle product.

Herbie's dBNeutralizer material is firm, but not rigid. It has slight compression/compliance. It absorbs vibration and blocks the transfer of vibration from passing through the material and in that regard decouples and isolates. It's firm, sort of like an ink eraser, as opposed to being "squishy" like Sorbothane or most rubber-like materials.

Herbie's dBNeutralizer would be great for a speaker cabinet except that it is not rigid; it's flexible and would need lots of structural support. And would be prohibitively expensive. Some of our customers apply dBNeutralizer sheet material inside speaker cabinet panels similarly to Hi Rez. Rope caulk is quite effective internally as well.

Though not my main area of expertise, I understand loudspeaker cabinet design. Keeping the baffle where the drivers are attached vibration-free is most essential. Because the baffle is connected (coupled) directly or indirectly to the rest of the cabinet, keeping the cabinet as vibration-free as possible is paramount. In most cases, isolating the cabinet-floor interface with a dBNeutralizer-based product is more effective in this regard than coupling with spikes.

Whether this material couples or decouples is inconsequential or perhaps a matter of interpretation. The products work. They work very well, very effective and efficient. Of course any interface couples to a degree, but separating the speaker from floorborne vibrations, some of which are speaker-generated that reverberate from the floor back up the spikes, is what I consider and call "decoupling." With speakers rigidly coupled to the floor, some of the loudspeaker-generated vibration becomes floorborne micro-vibrations that can ultimately penetrate the audio rack and affect rack components as well. This is an additional sonic benefit of isolating/decoupling the speakers.

Micro-vibrations travel readily through most solid materials, including concrete, though all concrete is not the same in this regard. This is definitely measurable. Isolating a lamp surely would have no audible effect on the sonic results of the audio system. Isolating a refrigerator or washing machine might.

And again, what you are describing is coupling and not de-coupling. You are making a solid anchor point from the speaker to the floor.  That's coupling.

And again, the spike is adhered to a 1/4"-thick dBNeutralizer pad that provides the isolation/decoupling between the bottom of the speaker cabinet and the spike.

Herbie's loudspeaker isolation products are also beneficial with audio system component racks. It's always most essential to isolate each component individually. No isolation product is 100% efficient, so isolating the rack and even the shelves can often provide some additional sonic benefit.

I'm sorry to have seen a simple post by someone recommending to check out these products for a DIY rack to have gone off on a tangent.

Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

[brooklyn]

Hi Vedder323, that a beautiful stand and audio system you got there.
I also have a diy component stand but yours takes it to the next level.

Very Nice

Regards,
Brooklyn

[nrenter]

Sounds like (pardon the pun) constrained layer damping to me (which implies coupling).

[Danny Richie]

Herbie's dBNeutralizer material is firm, but not rigid. It has slight compression/compliance. It absorbs vibration and blocks the transfer of vibration from passing through the material and in that regard decouples and isolates. It's firm, sort of like an ink eraser, as opposed to being "squishy" like Sorbothane or most rubber-like materials.

I like the sound of that. And it sounds ideal for products like shelves, racks, or non moving equipment.

Though not my main area of expertise, I understand loudspeaker cabinet design. Keeping the baffle where the drivers are attached vibration-free is most essential. Because the baffle is connected (coupled) directly or indirectly to the rest of the cabinet, keeping the cabinet as vibration-free as possible is paramount. In most cases, isolating the cabinet-floor interface with a dBNeutralizer-based product is more effective in this regard than coupling with spikes.

Yep, a resonance free cabinet is paramount.

However, with regards to setting it on the floor.... Even if you apply a damper (which is essentially what you are telling be that you product contains), that doesn't create isolation or separation from the floor. You are adding a damping layer. Then you are still adding a spike to the bottom of it and anchoring it to the floor. That is coupling. And if you were to add a damper then adding it to the corners of the floor of the cabinet (where spikes are found) is like adding a damper to the frame of a drum when it is really the skin or surface of the drum that resonates. It will not have an effect.

And again, the floor is not a source or conductor of vibration. The vibration that hits your gear, walls of your room, furnishings in the room, and everything else is air born. Just try for instance holding a balloon in your hand near your speaker as it plays loudly. Watch as it moves around with changing SPL. That moving around didn't come from the floor and through you. It was direct.

And the speaker is the source of the signal. The resonance issues it has and force and counter force that it deals with are self generated. The energy that reflects through the room then back to the speaker in any way is so down in power by comparison that it practically doesn't exist. Let's say the speaker produced a loud and quick drum hit. The force applied to the speaker from that drum hit that reflected through the room and came back to the speaker as a secondary reflection is nothing compared to the force that was applied to it when it reproduced the drum hit. Even if the speaker was on a wood floor that had some give to it the difference in those two forces are quite large.

And then let's say for instance that we did cause the floor to vibrate with some great force that flexed a concrete foundation. Speakers are typically a heavy object. Getting them to conduct a vibration is really tough. You couldn't measure much sound from a speaker setting on a concrete floor if you were pounding the floor with a sledge hammer. Something like a large flexible TV screen might allow you to pick up a signal from it. It is a large diaphragm. If you hit the floor hard enough you might measure a signal from the TV screen, but not much.

Now the pressure applied to the room from the speaker directly moves and resonates everything. And things with large surfaces like TV's or equipment racks are quite prone to be effected. So how one sets gear on a rack can have a big effect on the sound. Resonances in racks or in the gear itself gets layered onto the signal and amplified. So setting gear on products like yours focuses the weight to a small point making it tougher to move and a damping layer like your product provides is like a mini shock absorber. No doubt in my mind your product looks great and should work great on gear, racks, and even speakers.

However, it's effectiveness on speakers is due to it coupling the speaker to the floor. As far as de-coupling, there is no greater de-coupler of the speaker to the floor than thick carpet. It separates the speaker from the floor and allows it to move freely. You can even add another damper under it as well and it will have no effect. The speaker isn't stabilized. It is uncoupled from the floor. Now focus the weight of the speaker to a small point and anchor it to the floor (your own words) and that is coupling. Securing two objects to one another is coupling.

[Danny Richie]

We got a little side tracked from the original thread so I gave Steve his own thread.

Steve, despite how it my look in the discussion, I completely endorse and recommend your products. And you can feel free to continue in the discussion of them here as it will be very educational to our customers. 

[Captainhemo]

Danny if you  were to  take measurements in a room with an unspked speaker and then again with it spiked,  can differences be seen in the measurements ?  If so, it wold be cool if Steve would send you  a set of his   spikes  to test, heck, even if  the differences can't be measured, it would be nice to hear your opinion after  trying them with some speakers.  I know you have been open to new ideas in the past

I know  I feel I can hear a  pretty substantial difference  in my speakers   when I compare them  spiked vs unspiked.  Bass is much more defined and detailed,  a cleaner overall sound.  I personally don't see how a dampening layer  as Steve describes  would make an improvement but  I have not tried his spikes so honestly can't say either way.  Right now,  I'd say  couopling them to the foor with solid spikes makes the most sense but  .... 

-jay

[Herbie]

Thanks, Danny.

~Steve
Herbie's Audio Lab

[Folsom]

I don't know about all of Steve's Herbie products. But I guarantee anyone who thinks his vinyl mat at the full size isn't worth $70, or doesn't work, is a total fool.

The wood construction defines some of resonance concerns. Plywood with nothing on it for guitar cabinets is ideal, and I think some wood resonance sounds are good but only in music creation would I choose to encourage any of them. I'm not limiting this to just guitar cabinets for appreciation of some resonances, but I can say that when it comes to MDF I prefer no resonances.

That being said I got to say I think Danny's no-rez and non-resonating driver construction is the bomb.

But more importantly, I love this discussion happening on here between different companies. This breads good things if it remains civil and open minded. The forum could always use it!