Improved LDR Impedance - Peformance

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tortugaranger

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Improved LDR Impedance - Peformance
« on: 29 Oct 2013, 07:37 pm »
Hi All,

Thought I'd share some interesting evolving news regarding our LDR based passive preamp design.

To optimally transfer the audio signal (voltage!)  from source to load, contemporary designs take an impedance bridging approach whereby low Z sources (<1k  - CD, DAC etc.) are connected ("bridged") to relatively high Z loads (preamp/amp > 15k) rather than trying to actually match the Z's as was done back in the all-tube-all-the-time days.  If this ratio gets too low, the sound can begin to lose dynamics and sound flat.

Historically, implementing an LDR based attenuator by conventional analog means (using a stereo pot to regulate the LDRs)  results in a suboptimal impedance (Z) profile wherein the Z can get quite low (<1k) in the middle of normal listening range; quite the opposite of what you want. A considerable body of online discussion regarding the merits of LDR based preamps touches on this subject of "impedance mismatch".  To mitigate this, LDR based passive preamp designers (including Tortuga Audio) have recommended a load  to source Z ratio of 100:1 or greater. Even so, there are instances where an LDR passive preamp is not a great fit between certain sources and amps. And although Tortuga Audio's LDR preamp design utilizes digital control, to date we have largely emulated the LDR control achieved by a conventional pot. So while our focus to date has been on taming the variable and nonlinear LDRs and perfecting channel matching via software based control (which we have definitely achieved!), the impedance mismatch issue has largely remained unresolved.

That is about to change! Using test data, post testing data manipulation, and a revised software control design, we have now achieved an effectively fixed input impedance of ~20k over 90-95% of the attenuation range with impedance increasing above this level near zero and max volume (in order to achieve a nominal 0-60dB attenuation range).

What this means is while our LDR passive preamps already sounded great and we have a growing base of very satisfied customers, our LDR passive preamps are going to get even better going forward. Raising and fixing the input impedance to roughly the equivalent of a 20k potentiometer will both improve the audio dynamics and open up the application of our LDR passive preamp products to a much wider range of source-amp combinations including both tube and solid state types.

More on this as we work out the final details but we hope to begin shipping units with this upgraded design (all done in software - same hardware) within the next 30 days or so.  :thumb:

Cheers,
Morten


Randy

Re: Improved LDR Impedance - Peformance
« Reply #1 on: 29 Oct 2013, 07:55 pm »
It's Greek to me, but I trust this is great news.

tortugaranger

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Re: Improved LDR Impedance - Peformance
« Reply #2 on: 29 Oct 2013, 08:00 pm »
It's Greek to me, but I trust this is great news.

The abridged version:  :green:

If you're a techie objectivist, it means we got our input impedance up off the floor into a reasonable range.

If you're a non-techie subjectivist, it means it's probably going to sound better.

JohnR

Re: Improved LDR Impedance - Peformance
« Reply #3 on: 30 Oct 2013, 12:18 am »
Interesting stuff. Will an update be available for existing units?

tortugaranger

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Re: Improved LDR Impedance - Peformance
« Reply #4 on: 30 Oct 2013, 12:46 am »
Interesting stuff. Will an update be available for existing units?

While the short answer is yes, I need to sort out how to roll that out and what costs are involved. In theory it would be possible with every unit for which I have the original test data (without sending unit back for retesting/upgrade).  Would have to run original test data through the new post procesor to get the updated Left/Right channel attenuation curves for which there are now 2 separate arrays (series/shunt) for each channel (i.e. twice the data). Then burn that into a new chip, and pack it all up to ship etc.

Still tweaking the software and double checking everything etc.  Listening to some favorite music cuts there's undeniably stronger dynamics that are especially noticeable with things like drum head slam. Out of phase stereo images strike me as being more alive. Difficult to write about this accurately - too many fuzzy adjectives. Let's just say it sounds better!!

Before offering the upgrade I'll want to have 2-3 existing customers try it out first and make sure it's really solid and worth doing.

The next iteration of the LDR3x hardware/board will have a boatloader and micro USB connection so any software changes can be handled via email and a PC-USB-LDR3x connection but for now it's chip swap -  unfortunately.

glynnw

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Re: Improved LDR Impedance - Peformance
« Reply #5 on: 30 Oct 2013, 03:22 am »
I'll volunteer to be a guinea pig, if that helps. Not sure if I can switch a chip, though,

tortugaranger

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Re: Improved LDR Impedance - Peformance
« Reply #6 on: 30 Oct 2013, 01:46 pm »
I'll volunteer to be a guinea pig, if that helps. Not sure if I can switch a chip, though,

You're on Glynn and I think you'll find replacing the microcontroller chip to be fairly straight forward. Just a small screwdriver is needed to get under the chip and pry it gently out of the socket. Then press in the replacement making sure all the pins are aligned before gently pressing it into the socket. Easy peasy. Will send that chip out to you later this week.

Cheers,
Morten

doctorcilantro

Re: Improved LDR Impedance - Peformance
« Reply #7 on: 30 Oct 2013, 02:03 pm »
I just ordered 2 days ago. Wish I knew more ahead of time. Sounds interesting.

But I'm guessing I should be ok with a 100K tube amp?
Quote
To mitigate this, LDR based passive preamp designers (including Tortuga Audio) have recommended a load  to source Z ratio of 100:1 or greater. Even so, there are instances where an LDR passive preamp is not a great fit between certain sources and amps.

tortugaranger

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Re: Improved LDR Impedance - Peformance
« Reply #8 on: 30 Oct 2013, 02:28 pm »
I just ordered 2 days ago. Wish I knew more ahead of time. Sounds interesting.

But I'm guessing I should be ok with a 100K tube amp?

If you ordered 2 days ago then your ordered hasn't shipped yet. If you can give us a week or so I'm reasonably sure we can include the upgraded software in your order. Let me know.

Regardless, you should be in good shape with your tube amp. Have had very good feedback from customers running CD/DACs into tube amps.

Cheers,
Morten

doctorcilantro

Re: Improved LDR Impedance - Peformance
« Reply #9 on: 30 Oct 2013, 02:51 pm »
No worries. One was included in order according to Trung.

Cheers!

tortugaranger

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Re: Improved LDR Impedance - Peformance
« Reply #10 on: 30 Oct 2013, 02:58 pm »
No worries. One was included in order according to Trung.

Cheers!

Well then that ship has already sailed. But I'll be sending Trung an upgraded beta-chip to try out.  :green:

TrungT

Re: Improved LDR Impedance - Peformance
« Reply #11 on: 30 Oct 2013, 03:17 pm »
Morten.
Can I have a pair?
 :thumb:

glynnw

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Re: Improved LDR Impedance - Peformance
« Reply #12 on: 30 Oct 2013, 06:02 pm »
Thanks, Morten.   As an official non-techie, I'll let you know if I think it "sounds gooder".

tortugaranger

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Re: Improved LDR Impedance - Peformance
« Reply #13 on: 30 Oct 2013, 08:00 pm »
Morten.
Can I have a pair?
 :thumb:

What? Stereo?  :o Sure.  :lol:

TrungT

Re: Improved LDR Impedance - Peformance
« Reply #14 on: 30 Oct 2013, 08:02 pm »
 :lol:


tortugaranger

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Re: Improved LDR Impedance - Peformance
« Reply #15 on: 30 Oct 2013, 08:11 pm »
This is what the new impedance curve looks like superimposed with the attenuation curve which hasn't changed. The bathtub shaped impedance is caused by the Z rise as volume approaches zero or max. These rises are need to to achieve the full attenuation range. Most listening is done at the bottom of the bathtub so to speak where the impedance hovers around 20k. This is where the raised impedance floor will have the most positive impact.


rklein

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Re: Improved LDR Impedance - Peformance
« Reply #16 on: 30 Oct 2013, 11:35 pm »
I am sooooooooo glad that you have my ldr3x boards back in your possession!   :thumb:

Regards,

Randy

tortugaranger

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Re: Improved LDR Impedance - Peformance
« Reply #17 on: 2 Nov 2013, 07:37 pm »
Here's an updated example of the the new HiZ attenuation and input impedance curves after further refinement of the test data processing logic/software. Managed to get rid of the impedance rise near max volume so no more bathtub shape. By the time the unit is in normal listening levels the impedance is leveled out around 20k.

The squiggles in the lines are caused by quantization effects. The design employs an 8 bit voltage divider so the full range of each LDR is captured via testing using 256 samples and we end up not using the bottom first 10. The quantization of the audio taper curve is small enough that you can't hear it. A few tenths of a dB at most. One consequence of this is I had to give up on bending the attenutation curve towards full volume - just ran out of resolution. Could fix that by going with a higher resolution 10 or 12 bit voltage divider on the next hardware iteration but I think that would be overkill.

After doing some extensive listening to this "HiZ" upgrade the overall improvement in fullness, dynamics and overall musicality and involvement is undeniable. And the LDR openess, clarity and resolution are still there in spades just as before - only better! I think this is going to raise the bar on passive preamps and give actives a real run for their money.

I am really pumped about this!!  :bounce: :banana piano: :hyper:




TrungT

Re: Improved LDR Impedance - Peformance
« Reply #18 on: 2 Nov 2013, 08:13 pm »
Awesome   :thumb:


I'm ready  :banana piano:

juanitox

Re: Improved LDR Impedance - Peformance
« Reply #19 on: 3 Nov 2013, 07:22 pm »
hi , i have plan to put a volume control in my dac ,   i have swap the active stage and run direct from the chip with a 3.9uf coupling cap , Z out is 10K  1,5V   do you think the new 20K board will work ?